Rebane's Ruminations
July 2017
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George Rebane

Union columnist Terry McLaughlin writes an excellent expose of nationalized healthcare in the newspaper’s 6jul17 edition – β€˜Government run healthcare wouldn’t be cheaper; more efficient’.  In there she includes a detailed report from New Zealand, one of the countries often cited by socialists of how a healthcare system should work.  As you might expect, the revelation isn’t a pretty picture, but it is one of which RR readers are very familiar.

SinglePayerHealthcareThe bottom line of all this push toward a (horribly misnamed) β€œsingle payer system” (SSS) is that, for all the reasons known to thinking people everywhere, no country has a laudable and/or sustainable government run healthcare system.  All of them are ragged bureaucracies, delivering already bad services for a very high price.  And all of them are looking for ways to deliver even less at a higher cost in ways that are difficult to discover while you’re healthy, and that immediately obvious but too late to fix once you become a victim (aka β€˜patient’).

I recommend Ms McLaughlin’s review of why we should do everything possible to avoid a SSS, and at the same time open up the delivery of healthcare products and services to the widest array of competent suppliers.  To argue that our pre-Ocare system already did that demonstrates a gross ignorance of our national economy, existing healthcare systems, and current affairs.

Finally, let’s dwell for a moment on the almost hysterical push for SSS we hear in the lamestream and in the exhortations of leftwing politicians, to remind us again of the seminal differences between people devoted to all things collectivist, and those who promote freedom, entrepreneurship, and market-driven solutions.

When in a social setting, peel back the daisy talking veneer of a collectivist, and you are instantly flooded with a monologue detailing the evils of selfish individualism and greedy capitalism, the remedies for which are government, and yet more government.  By definition, the collectivist sees a fulfilled human as one drawing all things good from being a compliant member of a politically legitimized collective.  By himself, the individual is nothing but a suffering derelict cast adrift on a sea of socially destructive competition that worships raw merit which inevitably gives rise to inequality and injustice.  It is the establishment, expansion, and submission to a comprehensive collective which gives rise to a society that provides succor to all of our β€˜legitimate needs’ through a correct redistribution from those who can and must, to those who can’t or won’t – β€œFrom each according to his ability, to each …” (Marx, et al).  Examples of such collectives still abound.  

[update]  For those true believers in government healthcare, we draw examples of β€˜healthcare from hell’ right here in the good ol’ USofA.  Everyone by now has heard, save perhaps the devotees of the lamestream media, of what the Veterans’ Administration has done in caring for the health of our veterans.  To this we can add the atrocity that is the system of, yes, federal hospitals charged with providing healthcare to Native Americans (pc for American Indians).  To get a snootful of what we can expect from SSS, and others around the world are already getting, you can read β€˜β€˜People Are Dying Here’: Federal Hospitals Are Failing Native Americans’ in which we find that – In some of the nation’s poorest places, the government health service charged with treating Native Americans failed to meet minimum U.S. standards for medical facilities, turned away gravely ill patients and caused unnecessary deaths, according to federal regulators, agency documents and interviews. … The IHS, a unit of the Department of Health and Human Services, operates a network of hospitals and clinics, much like the Veterans Health Administration. Under U.S. treaties that date back generations, the service is legally responsible for providing medical care to about 2.2 million tribal members.

[8jul17 update]  I couldn’t figure out where to post the tragic story of little Charlie Gard – the lamestream had no problem with just judiciously ignoring it – whether it is an example of hellish healthcare or of yellow (aka progressive) journalism.  Charlie suffers from a rare genetic disorder that gives him a very small chance of surviving, and that small chance is being reduced to zero by the National Healthcare System of the British government whose death panel has ruled that the state 1) will not let Charlie’s parents, at no cost to the UK government, take Charlie to the US for treatment, 2) deemed Charlie’s case too expensive to treat under their NHS β€˜single payer’ system (which is financially on its ass), and 3) have taken Charlie away from his parents and made him a ward of the state whose life will be officially terminated (they will β€˜pull the plug’) so that β€œhe can die with dignity” and fulfill his state determined “duty to die”.  UK’s socialist controllers cannot afford the precedent of returning the decision for an ailing person’s fate to his family.  Our progressives are purposely blind to these goings on, but the rest of us should pay close attention to how this plays out so that we can correctly evaluate the Left’s Single Payer Über Alles that is coming down the pike. (more here)  For a wider and deeper understanding of what’s in store for us, explore the widespread advent of state promoted ‘duty to die’ euthanasia across Europe.  I suppose ordering your premature death is probably the most direct way for governments to reduce the extent and cost of services of their socialized healthcare systems.

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278 responses to “Healthcare from Hell (updated 8jul17)”

  1. Bill Tozer Avatar
    Bill Tozer

    Let’s take our time to do it right. Like about 50-60 years. Patience little grasshoppers, patience. Your time will come and all this will be yours. Meanwhile, don’t forget to turn off the lights.

    Like

  2. Paul Emery Avatar
    Paul Emery

    I’m glad to see the conversation about Single payer being focused on doing it right. Single payer is the only real option for universal health care and it eliminates the Billions paid to fat cat CORPORATE BOARD CHAIRS.

    Like

  3. Don Bessee Avatar
    Don Bessee

    Spoken like a true socialist @209. πŸ˜‰

    Like

  4. Steve Frisch Avatar
    Steve Frisch

    “Smug elites pay heavy price for incompetence” (that includes wannabee elites like you, Steve):”
    See you just can’t help it πŸ™‚
    I’d put my working class [people’s] bona fides up against yours any day.
    I have actually held working class manual labor jobs, worked on an oil rig and on river barges, and worked in manufacturing. I spent most of the time in my life [well maybe not ‘most’ anymore since I have been in Truckee for 28 years] in working class and lower middle class neighborhoods. The town I most identify with due to my families roots, and spending the best times of my life there, is a working class paper mill town in central Wisconsin where my grandparents lived. I still spend more time on vacation going back to working class small towns in Pennsylvania, where my wife is from, than I do on the beach or in the hot spots of Europe. My guess is when I am not home [admittedly Truckee has become a bastion of liberal values much to the benefit of Nevada County] I spend the VAST majority of my time in Red America not Blue.
    But that’s OK Greg, keep thinking you know me….and once again diverting from the issue….
    ……most of the industrialized world gets equal or better care than the United States at half the cost!

    Like

  5. Paul Emery Avatar
    Paul Emery

    Centene’s Michael Neidorff reigns supreme. 22 Million
    http://www.fiercehealthcare.com/payer/health-insurance-ceo-pay-tops-out-at-22m-2016

    Like

  6. Don Bessee Avatar
    Don Bessee

    So he makes about as much as a good basketball player, what’s the problem? OH, right its capitalism that is the po’ ol’ fakenewsmans (among others) problem. πŸ˜‰

    Like

  7. Steve Frisch Avatar
    Steve Frisch

    “Forget the payroll tax. Take it out of tax returns, especially the Earned Income Credit. That way when people file their taxes at the end of a year for a refund for some child credit, the government keeps the refund and sends them a bill..with penalties and interest. If they don’t pay the taxes due in a timely manner, the IRS can garnish their wages, freeze their bank accounts, and seize assets, or take it out monthly out of their Social Security or Disability checks. Like the old crude bumper sticker: “Grass, ass, or gas. Nobody rides for free.””
    EITC—$60 billion BEFORE calculating avoided costs of diverting people from AFDC and SNAP
    Federal Spending and costs on Health Care–$1.25 Trillion
    Consumer and Gov Spending on Health Care and Insurance—-$3.5 Trillion
    See the problem here πŸ™‚

    Like

  8. fish Avatar
    fish

    Posted by: Steve Frisch | 09 July 2017 at 02:40 PM
    ……most of the industrialized world gets equal or better care than the United States at half the cost!

    Have you considered emigrating! I hear Europe is looking for laborers!

    Like

  9. Todd Juvinall Avatar
    Todd Juvinall

    I think the lefties will stay here. They don’t want to totally give over their bodies and souls to communism and socialism. But as long as we see their jealousy to others success they will attempt to take that success and steal it.

    Like

  10. George Rebane Avatar

    My small voice promotes the best healthcare system coming from more freedom and distributed components (healthcare providers, device makers, pharmas, clinics, hospitals, …) where competition, choice, innovation, … can flower. Leviathan systems run by legions of the marginally competents have always become inefficient and sclerotic – one only need to look at the EU systems today. There are scaling laws inherent to our universe that socialism seeks to circumvent at every turn when fashioning its institutions. Physics taught us that years ago, and now we are studying how they are beautifully replicated in biological systems. Evolution favored these scaling laws, and entities ranging from microbes, through critters, to the stars themselves have demonstrated the viability of these laws, and also the catastrophes when they are violated.

    Like

  11. Walt Avatar

    I suggest our lovers of Gov. health care move to where it is.
    Then tell us how great it is.

    Like

  12. Steve Frisch Avatar
    Steve Frisch

    So is the answer to the question…leave? I guess I would prefer to stay and fight for good policy for my country because…well …I love it.

    Like

  13. Don Bessee Avatar
    Don Bessee

    All evidence to the contrary @446. πŸ˜‰

    Like

  14. Todd Juvinall Avatar
    Todd Juvinall

    Why do liberals want to toss the Constitution into the trash? When you give over the care and upkeep of your body and mind to a government bureavrat, what is left? Oh, canon fodder for Kim Jong Un. Silly me. And GeorgeR has it tight about medical devices and procedures created in a free socity with a profit motive. Look at how jealous the left is with the salaries of the CEO’s of insurance companies. Now aren’t those people, the CEO’s running a fr profit company? It has been that way since Lloyds of London.

    Like

  15. fish Avatar
    fish

    Posted by: Steve Frisch | 09 July 2017 at 04:46 PM
    ….good policy.

    Still not convinced!

    Like

  16. Steve Frisch Avatar
    Steve Frisch

    Posted by: Don Bessee | 09 July 2017 at 04:53 PM
    And people think I am an arrogant elitist? It is my country, I love it as much as you or anyone else does. As an American I get to love it my way, not your way.

    Like

  17. Todd Juvinall Avatar
    Todd Juvinall

    Uh oh, I feel a Frisch crying jag coming on.

    Like

  18. Don Bessee Avatar
    Don Bessee

    @ 512- All of the policies you advocate for would ultimately destroy American democracy. Hobble our industry and take food from the mouths of the poorest and make everything more expensive as a sacrifice on the altar of your god of global warming.
    Unfettered open boarders and give full benefits to illegals who keep citizen communities of color dependent because of job competition with illegals, much to the delight of the limousine liberals a al Pelosi.
    Your socialism has been tried and continues to fail (yes in the EU too) yet that experiment cost 80 million people their lives.
    Your idea of love of country if applied to your wife would be felony domestic violence. πŸ˜‰

    Like

  19. Bill Tozer Avatar
    Bill Tozer

    Dr. Rebane @ 4:29 pm
    “My small voice promotes the best healthcare system coming from more freedom and distributed components (healthcare providers, device makers, pharmas, clinics, hospitals, …) where competition, choice, innovation, … can flower.”
    Yes, and not to mention the effects of AI claiming a greater role in healthcare. competition, choice, innovation and inspiration can come from anywhere. Good ole Yankee ingenuity
    https://www.facebook.com/PatriotPost/photos/a.82108390913.80726.51560645913/10154869491365914/?type=3&theater

    Like

  20. Steve Frisch Avatar
    Steve Frisch

    Posted by: Don Bessee | 09 July 2017 at 05:22 PM
    Don, I have little personal experience with domestic violence so I will take your word on it.

    Like

  21. Don Bessee Avatar
    Don Bessee

    Yes Friscy I have spent years supporting crime victims so they received due process and their rights were protected as well as their person and kids. Have you ever escorted a DV victim to a custody exchange or court?
    Your love of country is self gratifying abusive love like Eminem & Rihanna in the song. πŸ˜‰

    Like

  22. Walt Avatar

    OH. That’s right. No way would Steve go chase his free health care dream in a land where it’s supposed to be thriving.(according to him) Never mind the people living under that system who says it sucks.
    The VA is “free”* for me, but I want no part of it, yet I have no choice in the matter.
    (Part of those Obummercare regulations)
    Hay Steve. How would you like to go under the knife and wake up screaming in pain?
    And one more thing. NO pain management to speak of. (if you call Tylenol 3 w/ codeine pain management) Three hours on the table dude,, then send ya’ home. Enjoy the ride.
    Yup, “managed care” on the cheap.
    That’s the reality of LIB’s “single payer” care.

    Like

  23. Paul Emery Avatar
    Paul Emery

    Todd, George, Gregory
    Do you believe in compulsory education? Why should I pay to send other peoples kids to school. I don’t have any kids so why is it my responsibility. Hey that’s something like national healthcare when I hear your type complaining about paying for someone elses medical needs.

    Like

  24. fish Avatar
    fish

    Posted by: Paul Emery | 09 July 2017 at 06:42 PM
    Stop extracting my taxes to secure the NEA voting bloc and I’ll see to finding a decent education without your “help”!
    I’d be happy to let you keep your “fair share” for this one Pau!

    Like

  25. Todd Juvinall Avatar
    Todd Juvinall

    Paul Emery, vouchers will solve it. I am also a believer that property taxes are immoral. Chew on that.

    Like

  26. Walt Avatar

    Just in case Steve and Paul missed it.
    http://www.foxnews.com/health/2017/07/09/charlie-gard-parents-ill-baby-say-deserves-chance-at-treatment-in-us.html
    Yup, Great care. And don’t you dare leave.

    Like

  27. Don Bessee Avatar
    Don Bessee

    Wasn’t that the nurses union who did the knife in the back of the CA bear image because socialized medicine failed? πŸ˜‰

    Like

  28. Walt Avatar

    There must be something in that bill that makes it REAL hard to fire a crappy healthcare worker. Same verbiage as the old VA union contracts? At least Trump is starting to clean up the VA.

    Like

  29. Steve Frisch Avatar
    Steve Frisch

    I should take a minute to tell you Walt that I am saddened to hear that your health care at the VA is so poor. Your story has been repeated by to many others. I think mismanagement of the VA system is not only a national failure but that veterans should get the absolute best health care we can provide. We owe our veterans that for the role they have played securing our freedom.
    I truly believe that fixing the problems at the VA could be a model for how we implement a single payer system and that we should clean up the VA first.

    Like

  30. Bill Tozer Avatar
    Bill Tozer

    Hmm. Wonder how much the CEO of Ars Technica makes. Whatever it is, Punchy will not be happy. Some just see the glass as half full, I reckon.
    http://www.breitbart.com/tech/2017/07/07/report-early-trials-cancer-vaccines-safe-effective-attacking-tumors/

    Like

  31. ScenesFromTheApocalypse Avatar
    ScenesFromTheApocalypse

    “I truly believe that fixing the problems at the VA could be a model for how we implement a single payer system and that we should clean up the VA first.”
    That’s a good point. The VA system isn’t a bad experimental system for rolling out changes in record keeping, healthcare strategies, etc. I suppose you could make the same argument for Medicare. Why not combine the two?
    If the European model appears to consist of single buyer healthcare, in the US a small number of buyers doesn’t appear to have the same market pressure to dictate prices, I can’t help but wonder what all the side effects would be of cutting salaries and drug prices by a quite large amount.
    Heck, just imagine the savings if we cut teacher salaries by 40%. Maybe this isn’t such a bad plan.
    A semi-interesting link that is somewhat related.
    http://content.healthaffairs.org/content/22/3/89.full.html

    Like

  32. Gregory Avatar
    Gregory

    PE 642
    So Paul, where does that line of reasoning end? From each according to ability, to each according to need?
    It’s been tried. Didn’t work as planned.

    Like

  33. Gregory Avatar
    Gregory

    “I truly believe that fixing the problems at the VA could be a model for how we implement a single payer system and that we should clean up the VA first”
    Good idea. The firings have already started.
    https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/powerpost/wp/2017/07/10/va-fires-more-than-500-feds-under-trump-even-before-new-accountability-law/?utm_term=.ddc6b09a47cf

    Like

  34. George Rebane Avatar

    PaulE 642pm – Don’t want to pull this thread off into a discussion of public education. That needs its own post under which we can dissect 10 ways from Sunday.
    As I quoted Marx in my commentary (reprised in Gregory’s 907am), such open ended questions as yours lead to nowhere, and the history of their implied practice is dismal. Yes, we do have to pay for things we put in the commons – e.g. transportation infrastructure – but the big difference between you and people like me is where to draw the boundary to the commons. You and yours want the commons to be comprehensive across the land, I and mine want a minimalist commons – just enough and no more.

    Like

  35. Gregory Avatar
    Gregory

    Frisch: “I’d put my working class [people’s] bona fides up against yours any day.”
    There’s a large gulf between wannabee elite and working class, Steven. A degree in Political Science from ‘Frisco State isn’t an aspiration of the “working class” and I’ve never wanted to be thought of as “working class”. Just free, and somewhere in the uppity middle.
    Besides, that was your old, Steve. Not the one where you think shopping for insurance to buy for your minions of the rent seeking Sierra Business Council qualifies you to pass a judgment about the insurance I don’t want to be forced to buy, with or without a subsidy.

    Like

  36. Paul Emery Avatar
    Paul Emery

    It’s a pretty simple discussion George and it has everything to do with health care. On of your main arguments against universal health care asks the question -Why should my money pay for someone else’s healthcare? You seem to have no problem having me pay for other peoples children’s education even though I have no children so I’m asking what’s the difference? You can take a crack at this as well Gregory. Just curious as to the difference.

    Like

  37. Gregory Avatar
    Gregory

    “it has everything to do with health care”
    No, it doesn’t, Paul, anymore than it has everything to do with food, water, shelter, transportation and entertainment. Don’t think of school taxes not paying for your non-existing kids, think of it is paying society back for the schooling you slept through.
    Occupy Music in the Mountains has a ring to it, doesn’t it? Mozart should be free, not to mention yet another cover of Cohen’s Hallelujah that some are probably yearning to be free of.

    Like

  38. ScenesFromTheApocalypse Avatar
    ScenesFromTheApocalypse

    ‘Occupy Music in the Mountains’ lol. Perfect.
    I was thinking we could send a delegation to Washington to have Nevada County declared the official ‘America’s Cover Tune County’.
    At some point you’ll see an epic show at the Nevada Theatre featuring the music of The Shaggs, and you’ll know the run will finally be over.
    In health news, I really wonder how this is going to play out.
    https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/mcconnell-says-gop-must-shore-up-aca-insurance-markets-if-senate-bill-dies/2017/07/06/e2df2b8e-6251-11e7-8adc-fea80e32bf47_story.html?utm_term=.daae38cd112d
    The old plan is collapsing, the .gov doesn’t really want to pay for the subsidies, the new plan is in shambles. People want healthcare for free, doctors don’t want to take a 50% haircut, insurance companies don’t want to be legislated out of existence, the drug companies want to keep the profits they have (probably around what an Intel might make). Just hang on for the ride. Maybe stock up on fish antibiotics.

    Like

  39. Paul Emery Avatar
    Paul Emery

    Too bad you didn’t see the show Gregory. I think you would have enjoyed it. We did 20 other songs besides Hallelujah.
    Do you gelieve in compulsory education Gregory> If you do how does that fit into your pseudo Libertarian light philisophy.

    Like

  40. Steve Frisch Avatar
    Steve Frisch

    “There’s a large gulf between wannabee elite and working class, Steven. A degree in Political Science from ‘Frisco State isn’t an aspiration of the “working class” and I’ve never wanted to be thought of as “working class”. Just free, and somewhere in the uppity middle.”
    I think this comment is so illustrative go your limited knowledge Greg—knowing and having working class relatives and living in working class neighborhood I can tell you that having a child that goes to college and moves into a professional class is ABSOLUTELY an aspiration of the working class…as a matter of fact it the very social and economic mobility described as the “American Dream” that motivated working people to strive for their children.
    The fact that you leverage that to once again attack my business Greg just shows what a complete asshole you are. You just can’t help yourself.

    Like

  41. Steve Frisch Avatar
    Steve Frisch

    Paul’s question is of course entirely relevant. It is not a question about education….it is a question about compulsory payment for a social good that one does not receive a direct benefit from.
    Paul has no children….I have no children….why should we have to pay for your brats to go to school?
    Paul is merely pointing out the inconsistencies.

    Like

  42. fish Avatar
    fish

    Posted by: Steve Frisch | 10 July 2017 at 01:22 PM
    ….why should we have to pay for your brats to go to school?

    Answered and ignored by Punchy above! He really only cares when he thinks he scores the “gotcha” answer!
    Fortunately he’s so ham fisted and obvious this rarely happens….the gotcha I mean!
    Carry on!

    Like

  43. ScenesFromTheApocalypse Avatar
    ScenesFromTheApocalypse

    “Paul is merely pointing out the inconsistencies.”
    I think Paul is playing Whac-a-mole more likely.
    Obviously, it’s all a matter of degree. Should school be paid for generally? How much school? To what age? K-12? Post-graduate? $4k/yr? $25k/yr?
    Perhaps food should be free. or Sony Playstations.
    All this does is muddy the water. The medical world is complicated enough (it’s ability to kill you via action or lack of availability, the fact that it can easily pauperize you, or that it can be insanely painful for one reason or the other) without allowing The Paul to play the ‘what about’ game.
    I’d rather hear more about how we get there from here, and why there is better. This is a tricky matter and a better bit of mental exercise than worrying about Russians and polls.

    Like

  44. Gregory Avatar
    Gregory

    A professional class, sure. Not the petty political class, Steve.
    If you and Paul want to argue you didn’t get an education, I suggest you try to sue to get your money back. Because that’s the social good.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Common_school

    Like

  45. Gregory Avatar
    Gregory

    Scenes, accounting for all the money spent on K-12 students per year in DC is as much as $28k or more. Utah, closer to $4k.
    Paul
    “Do you gelieve [sic] in compulsory education Gregory>[sic] If you do how does that fit into your pseudo Libertarian light philisophy [sic]”
    Paul, maybe you didn’t get your money’s worth, and, do you have Libertarian confused with “off the grid refusing to pay taxes anarchist prepper”? Give it some thought.

    Like

  46. uirement under law? Avatar
    uirement under law?

    Gregory, you entirely miss the point. Who gave the government the power to require compulsory education ? Where in the constitution is that power enumerated? Seems like through the lens of a Conservative such as you, George and Scenes that should be a no no. You are the ones saying health care is not a right. Is education a right and should it be legislated as law punishable by fine and incarceration or possibly the taking of your children by the state? It’s okay to muddy the water Scenes. that’s what a lively discussion is all about. Most of the participants on this blog resort to personal attacks because they have no depth to their argument. It will happen again on this topic, wait and see.
    George just makes new rules and splits when the going gets rough.

    Like

  47. Don Bessee Avatar
    Don Bessee

    Another po’ ol’ fakenwsman pseudonym @ 328? πŸ˜‰

    Like

  48. uirement under law? Avatar
    uirement under law?

    Bessee right on schedule. He never has anything to say so who cares.

    Like

  49. George Rebane Avatar

    uirement 328pm – We have over ten years of history in these pages. Point us to ONE example of my making new rules and splitting when the going gets tough, or we’re gonna miss you around here. You have yet to show your intellectual chops cupcake (whoever you are), and from the looks of it you may be in water over your head here.

    Like

  50. uirement under law? Avatar
    uirement under law?

    George
    For many times you make a ruling is anecdotal and disregard good and useful information yet you eagerly allow anecdotal information supporting your view without a peep. That’s one example. Your refusal to consider the merits of comparing taxpayer support for healthcare with taxpayer support for education is the most recent one. I can go on and on but that’s a start.
    Are you considering banning me from your blog?

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