Rebane's Ruminations
July 2017
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George Rebane

Union columnist Terry McLaughlin writes an excellent expose of nationalized healthcare in the newspaper’s 6jul17 edition – ‘Government run healthcare wouldn’t be cheaper; more efficient’.  In there she includes a detailed report from New Zealand, one of the countries often cited by socialists of how a healthcare system should work.  As you might expect, the revelation isn’t a pretty picture, but it is one of which RR readers are very familiar.

SinglePayerHealthcareThe bottom line of all this push toward a (horribly misnamed) “single payer system” (SSS) is that, for all the reasons known to thinking people everywhere, no country has a laudable and/or sustainable government run healthcare system.  All of them are ragged bureaucracies, delivering already bad services for a very high price.  And all of them are looking for ways to deliver even less at a higher cost in ways that are difficult to discover while you’re healthy, and that immediately obvious but too late to fix once you become a victim (aka ‘patient’).

I recommend Ms McLaughlin’s review of why we should do everything possible to avoid a SSS, and at the same time open up the delivery of healthcare products and services to the widest array of competent suppliers.  To argue that our pre-Ocare system already did that demonstrates a gross ignorance of our national economy, existing healthcare systems, and current affairs.

Finally, let’s dwell for a moment on the almost hysterical push for SSS we hear in the lamestream and in the exhortations of leftwing politicians, to remind us again of the seminal differences between people devoted to all things collectivist, and those who promote freedom, entrepreneurship, and market-driven solutions.

When in a social setting, peel back the daisy talking veneer of a collectivist, and you are instantly flooded with a monologue detailing the evils of selfish individualism and greedy capitalism, the remedies for which are government, and yet more government.  By definition, the collectivist sees a fulfilled human as one drawing all things good from being a compliant member of a politically legitimized collective.  By himself, the individual is nothing but a suffering derelict cast adrift on a sea of socially destructive competition that worships raw merit which inevitably gives rise to inequality and injustice.  It is the establishment, expansion, and submission to a comprehensive collective which gives rise to a society that provides succor to all of our ‘legitimate needs’ through a correct redistribution from those who can and must, to those who can’t or won’t – “From each according to his ability, to each …” (Marx, et al).  Examples of such collectives still abound.  

[update]  For those true believers in government healthcare, we draw examples of ‘healthcare from hell’ right here in the good ol’ USofA.  Everyone by now has heard, save perhaps the devotees of the lamestream media, of what the Veterans’ Administration has done in caring for the health of our veterans.  To this we can add the atrocity that is the system of, yes, federal hospitals charged with providing healthcare to Native Americans (pc for American Indians).  To get a snootful of what we can expect from SSS, and others around the world are already getting, you can read ‘‘People Are Dying Here’: Federal Hospitals Are Failing Native Americans’ in which we find that – In some of the nation’s poorest places, the government health service charged with treating Native Americans failed to meet minimum U.S. standards for medical facilities, turned away gravely ill patients and caused unnecessary deaths, according to federal regulators, agency documents and interviews. … The IHS, a unit of the Department of Health and Human Services, operates a network of hospitals and clinics, much like the Veterans Health Administration. Under U.S. treaties that date back generations, the service is legally responsible for providing medical care to about 2.2 million tribal members.

[8jul17 update]  I couldn’t figure out where to post the tragic story of little Charlie Gard – the lamestream had no problem with just judiciously ignoring it – whether it is an example of hellish healthcare or of yellow (aka progressive) journalism.  Charlie suffers from a rare genetic disorder that gives him a very small chance of surviving, and that small chance is being reduced to zero by the National Healthcare System of the British government whose death panel has ruled that the state 1) will not let Charlie’s parents, at no cost to the UK government, take Charlie to the US for treatment, 2) deemed Charlie’s case too expensive to treat under their NHS ‘single payer’ system (which is financially on its ass), and 3) have taken Charlie away from his parents and made him a ward of the state whose life will be officially terminated (they will ‘pull the plug’) so that “he can die with dignity” and fulfill his state determined “duty to die”.  UK’s socialist controllers cannot afford the precedent of returning the decision for an ailing person’s fate to his family.  Our progressives are purposely blind to these goings on, but the rest of us should pay close attention to how this plays out so that we can correctly evaluate the Left’s Single Payer Über Alles that is coming down the pike. (more here)  For a wider and deeper understanding of what’s in store for us, explore the widespread advent of state promoted ‘duty to die’ euthanasia across Europe.  I suppose ordering your premature death is probably the most direct way for governments to reduce the extent and cost of services of their socialized healthcare systems.

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278 responses to “Healthcare from Hell (updated 8jul17)”

  1. Steve Frisch Avatar
    Steve Frisch

    George, with all due respect, I never said I would not treat the child…I agree with you that it is the parents call.

    Like

  2. Gregory Avatar
    Gregory

    Todd, the parents of little Charlie raised something like $1.2 million in donations to cover the cost of the experiment… if it was a kid in the US, I doubt any insurance would cover the procedure and unless they were sitting on a pile of money, they’d be begging here, too.
    But unless the doctors were out and out quacks, they wouldn’t be blocked by a court if they could write the needed checks.

    Like

  3. Steve Frisch Avatar
    Steve Frisch

    Sorry Greg, but whether or not SBC is a gun free zone is not relevant to this discussion…but you should know that our office is in a public building, Truckee Town Hall.

    Like

  4. Gregory Avatar
    Gregory

    “I agree with you that it is the parents call.”
    Steve, how do you reconcile that with your “single payer” fixation? Were you expecting a public system in parallel with a private system for those who are wealthy?

    Like

  5. Steve Frisch Avatar
    Steve Frisch

    Posted by: Gregory | 08 July 2017 at 08:46 PM
    What do you mean Greg, I think I stated very early in this discussion that like France, single payer does not mean no supplemental insurance.
    If the parents have supplemental insurance fine….
    Regardless, I do not believe that it should be a government decision to allow someone to die….I think that is the families decision… and it is never a governments right to stop someone from leaving the country to seek treatment, or for that matter it is never the governments right to keep someone from leaving the country unless they have been lawful detained for a crime. The child is the legal charge of the parents, the parents should be free to leave.

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  6. Steve Frisch Avatar
    Steve Frisch

    You guys do all understand that universal single payer does not mean that one cannot seek private treatment or have private insurance right?

    Like

  7. Don Bessee Avatar
    Don Bessee

    That why the brits have such growth in pay to play health care. 😉

    Like

  8. Gregory Avatar
    Gregory

    “You guys do all understand that universal single payer”
    That would depend on how much the authors of the legislation are control freaks, Steven.

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  9. Steve Frisch Avatar
    Steve Frisch

    Posted by: Gregory | 08 July 2017 at 09:14 PM
    “That would depend…”
    Yeah well I guess theoretically anything could happen …like someone could pass a law against private contracts…and pass a law allowing restraint of trade….the thing that protects you is…well…..you know….law.

    Like

  10. Gregory Avatar
    Gregory

    “The child is the legal charge of the parents, the parents should be free to leave.”
    Unless Child Protective Services get a bee up their bonnet, Steve, and starts throwing their weight around.

    Like

  11. fish Avatar
    fish

    The wealthy will pay for high quality concierge care! Good luck affording any supplemental insurance after you’ve paid for your overpriced GovShitCare!

    Like

  12. Walt Avatar

    Gotta love the VA. They REALLY want you to see “them”. The Dr. here in GV had to get authorization to treat me. The VA stalled big time. I offered to pay him cash, yet still no dice.. It was against the law.
    The VA rules allow me to be seen locally due to distance. The VA doesn’t want to play by their own rules. They make it as painful as possible to be seen non VA.
    I have already been treated by VA docs once before. The farther I stay away, the better.

    Like

  13. Steve Frisch Avatar
    Steve Frisch

    Posted by: Gregory | 08 July 2017 at 09:17 PM
    “Unless child protective services…”
    That is an issue of overstep by CPS if that is the case….not a medical case or decision. There can of course always be overstep by some entity….I merely stated that in this case, as in every case, the government should not have this power to keep someone from traveling…unless there is due process.

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  14. Steve Frisch Avatar
    Steve Frisch

    The wealthy will pay for high quality concierge care! Good luck affording any supplemental insurance after you’ve paid for your overpriced GovShitCare!
    Posted by: fish | 08 July 2017 at 09:18 PM
    Don’t you get it Fish…you are already getting shit care compared to what you (we) are paying for. That is my point….all those countries…better care half the price.

    Like

  15. Todd Juvinall Avatar
    Todd Juvinall

    Sorry you are wrong Frisch. I am getting good care. I paid cash for many years and took good care of myself so the ER never saw me until I was attacked in 2010. I had insurance at that time and it was supplied by my employer. All worked good. Then cam Ocare and wrecked it all.

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  16. fish Avatar
    fish

    Posted by: Steve Frisch | 08 July 2017 at 09:36 PM
    ….And more government will remedy this state of affairs?

    Like

  17. Bill Tozer Avatar
    Bill Tozer

    RE Update, 8th of July.
    What’s the big deal about the British refusing to allow little Charlie Gard from leaving the British healthcare system and being declared a ward of the state? Socialists kill people everyday.

    Like

  18. Gregory Avatar
    Gregory

    Frisch 935pm
    CPS, once they’ve decided the parents are not using good judgement with the child’s welfare in mind, have wide powers to appear in court on the child’s behalf. Had you been a parent you might have noticed this at work.
    Not unlike the British health authorities who are keeping Charlie Gard in the hospital, with a magistrate’s backing.

    Like

  19. Steve Frisch Avatar
    Steve Frisch

    Posted by: Todd Juvinall | 08 July 2017 at 09:52 PM
    I am glad you are getting good health care Todd, so am I.
    Now we just have to figure it out for the 35 million Americans who have no access to health insurance, the 25-30 million whose deductibles are so high they might as well not have any health insurance because any significant illness will bankrupt them, and the 22 million Americans who would lose health insurance should the Senate health care bill pass.

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  20. Gregory Avatar
    Gregory

    Frisch 757
    “…and the 22 million Americans who would lose health insurance should the Senate health care bill pass.”
    That’s a dishonest way to mention the estimated 22 million Americans who will not buy a compliant Obamacare policy in the absence of coercion.

    Like

  21. Steve Frisch Avatar
    Steve Frisch

    Posted by: Gregory | 09 July 2017 at 07:49 AM
    Well I am certainly not apologizing for the fact that we consciously decided not to have children Greg. I am sure I would have been a great father…I can’t imagine circumstances where CPS would have ever needed to intervene, and implying that just demonstrates your character.
    But I did not come here to discuss the arcana of CPS law—that could occur with or without health care in any number of ways–and your use of it is a derivative logical fallacy to deflect from the fact that you can’t explain why Americans pay almost twice as much for the same or lesser health care than most of the industrialized world.

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  22. George Rebane Avatar

    NPR this morning featured EU healthcare. Their correspondents put the best face on the limits of available procedures, the wait times, the private sector augmentation, and finally a UK economist was asked what the prevalent problem was for their NHS and nationalized healthcare in general. He immediately replied that it was lack of adequate funding; the politicians simply don’t budget enough for healthcare. Whoulda thought? Can anyone spell ‘s-u-s-t-a-i-n-a-b-l-e’?
    Comparing costs is a difficult undertaking (not appreciated by progressives for whom it is very simple), so the natural question when doing so in healthcare is how are the Europeans’ expenses for paying for extra insurance and seeing private healthcare providers factored in.
    Looks like SteveF 757am is making the case that over 60-80M+ Americans are in dire straits regarding their healthcare. I recall in 2009 that the number of those who wanted and couldn’t afford healthcare hovered around 9M, and that was enough to motivate the Dems to pass Obamacare. Otherwise it’s crickets on responding to the real problems of a major and important part of our economy designed and run by feedback-free incompetents.

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  23. Steve Frisch Avatar
    Steve Frisch

    Posted by: Gregory | 09 July 2017 at 08:07 AM
    Absolutely not disingenuous. The ACA is the law of the land, tested by the courts.
    First, I never said the loss would come form people who are currently purchasing under the ACA market….you assumed that. Most of the losses would come from Medicaid.
    But the CBO report clearly states that 22-24 million Americans who CURRENTLY have health insurance would lose insurance under the Senate proposal and this would go from being insured to uninsured.
    The CBO, along with the Joint Committee on Taxation, found that 5 million fewer people would be covered under Medicaid by 2018 with the cuts proposed; and 14 million fewer people would enroll in the program by 2026.
    Meanwhile, 6 million fewer Americans would be covered in the individual market by 2018 with the Senate bill, but the go on to estimate that by 2026, only 2 million fewer people are expected to be covered, largely because of employers dropping insurance driving employees to the private market.
    So I really can’t be “disingenuous” because I didn’t say what you say I said and my source is cited….in other words I have a source and you have have jack sh*#.

    Like

  24. Steve Frisch Avatar
    Steve Frisch

    Posted by: George Rebane | 09 July 2017 at 08:12 AM
    George according to the Kaiser Family Foundations study the number of uninsured in America stood at 28.5 million in 2013. By the CBO estimate that number has gone up as weaknesses in the ACA market occurred. According to the Gallup Healthways poll that number now stands at 11.3% f the population or roughly 35 million give or take.
    The “… the 25-30 million whose deductibles are so high…” I cited are the number of ‘underinsured’ whose deductibles are above $10,000 according to CBO.

    Like

  25. Gregory Avatar
    Gregory

    Back to Charlie Gard, from the British court’s opinion:

    At one stage, Great Ormond Street Hospital got as far as deciding to apply for ethical permission to attempt nucleoside therapy here – a treatment that has never been used on patients with this form of MDDS – but, by the time that decision had been made, Charlie’s condition had greatly worsened and the view of all here was that his epileptic encephalopathy was such that his brain damage was severe and irreversible that treatment was potentially painful but incapable of achieving anything positive for him.
    I was aware that I was to hear evidence from the doctor[1] in the USA who was, reportedly, offering what had been referred to as “pioneering treatment”. Before he gave evidence, I encouraged the treating consultant at Great Ormond Street Hospital to speak with him which he was able and willing to do. I am truly grateful to these experts for the time that they have given to this case. The outcome of that discussion is illuminating. The doctor in the USA said as follows:
    “Seeing the documents this morning has been very helpful. I can understand the opinions that he is so severely affected by encephalopathy [i.e. brain damage] that any attempt at therapy would be futile. I agree that it is very unlikely that he will improve with that therapy. It is unlikely.”
    http://www.bailii.org/ew/cases/EWHC/Fam/2017/972.html

    I think the efforts today of declaring little Charile Gard a resident of the USA and have him brought to the US for therapy that is said to be “very unlikely” to improve his condition, by the doctor who is willing to give the therapy, is a sad state of affairs.

    Like

  26. Steve Frisch Avatar
    Steve Frisch

    By the way, I am wondering if there is anyone here who has anywhere near the experience I have actually purchasing health insurance on the private market?
    I purchased health insurance for between 20-35 people during the years 1993-2000 and 2006-2017. So I have been purchasing private health insurance for 17 years.
    I paid $128,000 for private health insurance in 2016, about the price of a new home in a lot of the country 🙂
    To say it is one of the most important business decisions I make every year so I follow it closely would be an understatement.
    I am not asking this question to imply superior knowledge, I am simply curious how many people here actually buy health insurance for a group on a regular basis?

    Like

  27. Steve Frisch Avatar
    Steve Frisch

    Posted by: Gregory | 09 July 2017 at 08:40 AM
    I agree it is sad Greg but you do realize that we make decisions like this every day even in the USA about what treatments people are going to get even in cases where people are not suffering from severe brain injury. Let’s just use the decision about who gets liver transplants, which I have some recent knowledge of. That decision is made based on age, life style, complicating injuries are heath factors, and ability to pay. If you are 60 with a history of alcohol or drug abuse and have poor or no insurance you don’t get the liver because supply is limited….and you die of liver disease.
    Is that rationing?….or a “death panel”?…

    Like

  28. Gregory Avatar
    Gregory

    “I purchased health insurance for between 20-35 people during the years 1993-2000 and 2006-2017”
    Wow, Steve! What a nice guy!
    And you think you chose well? Met the needs of everyone?
    Don’t get me wrong, I’m sure you, as Employer B, did the best you could to match the needs of Employee A’s family and Healthcare insurance company C standing in for health care providers. But you are the problem.

    Like

  29. Gregory Avatar
    Gregory

    Steven, of course it’s rationing with a side of death panel. Someone has to make a dispassionate decision as to how to spend money and implant scarce organs, not to mention deciding how likely the transplantee would start pickling the new organ or fail to take the anti rejection and other medications for the rest of their life.

    Like

  30. Gregory Avatar
    Gregory

    Frisch 809am
    “Well I am certainly not apologizing for the fact that we consciously decided not to have children Greg. I am sure I would have been a great father…I can’t imagine circumstances where CPS would have ever needed to intervene, and implying that just demonstrates your character”
    Shove it, Steven. I made no such implication and that just demonstrates your character.
    Not being a parent you probably didn’t pay attention to the overreach of public employees like CPS in turning family lives inside out; yes, I’m sure you couldn’t imagine such circumstances where CPS “needed” to intervene but imagine some moron getting the wrong idea and then making your lives miserable. Or you might have just ignored such stories taking the CPS view as the professionals who should be trusted.
    After all, they might have been (as one teacher I know once said) “Right wingers who don’t want their kids to know anything”. That teacher remains a Bush hating 9/11 Truther who thinks the WTC towers were brought down by a cabal led by Bush II.

    Like

  31. Steve Frisch Avatar
    Steve Frisch

    Posted by: Gregory | 09 July 2017 at 08:51 AM
    “But you are the problem.”
    Instead of taking this personally I am going to assume you are referring to your previously stated desire o see private health insurance decoupled from employment. But the reality is that 49% of Americans have private employer funded health insurance and that is the reality.
    So whatever system we design has to at least start from there.
    The easiest way to ‘decouple’ would be to create a floor–universal single payer–and transfer private health care payments from employers into payroll taxes.
    But two innovations in the ACA were targeted to beginning to alleviate this problem (if it is a problem); health care portability allowing employees to take their health care with them and subsequent employers or the employee themselves pay the premium, and Medicaid expansion, allowing people to opt for coverage under Medicaid if they qualified.
    But the other issue to be addressed in this discussion is the fact that between 1942 and 1980 we went from almost no employers proving health insurance to almost 72% of employers providing health insurance, and that between 1980 and 2016 we went from 72% providing down to less than 50% providing health insurance. Escalating prices are actually creating the scouting you desire Greg, albeit slowly, so the trick is figuring out how we are going to pay for the people who fall off of employer funded plans.
    Sans a payroll tax for health insurance I am not sure how you are going to do this–and a payroll tax is most likely to do this through universal single payer because it is the most economically efficient way to achieve that goal.
    It is important to note that this entire dynamic played out sans Obamacare…including the dynamic of health care cost inflation at 3 times greater than the average rate of inflation….Obamacare merely attempted, in what I would characterize in a weak way, to begin to address it .

    Like

  32. Steve Frisch Avatar
    Steve Frisch

    Posted by: Gregory | 09 July 2017 at 08:58 AM
    “Someone has to make a dispassionate decision as to how to spend money…”
    Yes they do and that is precisely my point….we do it here under a market based system all the time…every day….yet when it happens in the UK we characterize it as a result of a socialized health care system…why is it rational when we do it but a tragedy when they do it?

    Like

  33. Steve Frisch Avatar
    Steve Frisch

    “Shove it, Steven. I made no such implication and that just demonstrates your character.”
    Yeah well ..one cannot not be consistently insulting and personal then cry wolf when someone reads into your statements the insulting and personal.
    Perhaps if you eliminated the shade and had real conversations about policy without it embedded insult we could have a polite conversation.
    I have consistently over the years said I am more than happy and willing to do that but every time I do you throw something at the fan.
    You want to start right now…I am game.

    Like

  34. fish Avatar
    fish

    Posted by: Steve Frisch | 09 July 2017 at 09:29 AM
    Sans a payroll tax for health insurance I am not sure how you are going to do this–and a payroll tax is most likely to do this through universal single payer because it is the most economically efficient way to achieve that goal.

    So this is your roundabout way of saying I was right about GovShitCare for the Hoi Polloi and concierge medicine for the wealthy!
    Thanks Steve….that means a lot to me!

    Like

  35. Steve Frisch Avatar
    Steve Frisch

    Posted by: fish | 09 July 2017 at 09:42 AM
    Once again Fish, the same or slightly health care at half the cost under 11 industrialized nations single payer programs.

    Like

  36. George Rebane Avatar

    Can someone explain how Medicaid and its expansion is suddenly partitioned from Obamacare when it was sold as part and parcel of that healthcare package? ACA without (unaffordable) Medicaid expansion was and continues to be dead on arrival. Liberals conveniently arguing their separation are doing the ‘both-sides-of-the-street’ sidestep. And does anyone also note that ALL lamestream reports on the current healthcare debate treat Obamacare as a perfectly good and endurable government solution with nary a significant problem in the world? Well yes, there may be a little optional tweaking required here and there that would make it even better.
    I note the enthusiastic response of the cricket chorus to my 812am.

    Like

  37. Gregory Avatar
    Gregory

    “Instead of taking this personally I am going to assume you are referring to your previously stated desire o see private health insurance decoupled from employment”
    Yes, indeedy.
    “But the reality is that 49% of Americans have private employer funded health insurance and that is the reality”
    And the rest are either Medicare, Medicaid and public employer funded health insurance. The important item to remember is that it is that fact, that people literally can’t get enough insurance to keep themselves insulated from rising health care costs… as that is what is pouring ever more amounts of money chasing health care providers. It needs to be a money stream out in the open, and subject to income taxes, and people need to be able to shop for the insurance that meets their needs. And decide $1.3 million out of one’s own pocket to at best perhaps extend your dying child’s life by a few days and could cause them pain might not be worth it.
    “I have consistently over the years said I am more than happy and willing to do that but every time I do you throw something at the fan.”
    Yes, you have said that here and at the same time talked trash over at Pelline’s echo chamber, leaving me to believe it’s a debate tactic rather than sincerity on your part.

    Like

  38. Steve Frisch Avatar
    Steve Frisch

    Posted by: Gregory | 09 July 2017 at 10:18 AM
    “And the rest are either Medicare, Medicaid and public employer funded health insurance.”
    True that and individual coverage purchased on the ACA markets. BTW I think for purposes of the analysis done by Kaiser the ‘government employees” are lumped in with the “employer provided” group since these are employees whose employer provides insurance. It should be broken out, I agree.

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  39. Steve Frisch Avatar
    Steve Frisch

    “I have consistently over the years said I am more than happy and willing to do that but every time I do you throw something at the fan.”
    Yes, you have said that here and at the same time talked trash over at Pelline’s echo chamber, leaving me to believe it’s a debate tactic rather than sincerity on your part.
    Yes, and I have also stated I am not gong to unilaterally disarm…it is bilateral or nothing. But the offer to all here still stands.

    Like

  40. Bill Tozer Avatar
    Bill Tozer

    Forget the payroll tax. Take it out of tax returns, especially the Earned Income Credit. That way when people file their taxes at the end of a year for a refund for some child credit, the government keeps the refund and sends them a bill..with penalties and interest. If they don’t pay the taxes due in a timely manner, the IRS can garnish their wages, freeze their bank accounts, and seize assets, or take it out monthly out of their Social Security or Disability checks. Like the old crude bumper sticker: “Grass, ass, or gas. Nobody rides for free.”
    Steve, it seems to me that you just want a cheaper policy to cover the 20 or so employees. Good luck. You get bigger breaks when you can get 60,000 employees who are in their 24-50 age bracket, the younger the better. That I know.
    Just consider it all as the cost of doing business in CA. Portable insurance for when employees leave their jobs? You are kidding, right? There are 50 State Insurance Commisdions and not one of them is willing to give up control to some Federal bureaucracy. Not one, especially not CA’s State Insurance Commision. States rights and all that stuff. Medicaid for all and only the working men and women and the working confused about their genders will pay. Opps, businesses will pay, and boy will they ever. Everyone who generates a dime will pay….and pay more to insure the friggin deadbeats and slackers and other assorted low lives. With Obamacare, not one person has a legitimate excuse not to have health insurance. Everyone single client of the Hospitality House and every soup kitchen client and every homeless person in the woods has access to health insurance via Ocare. See, everybody is covered, but not all want to kick down to pay for it. It’s a choice. Strike that. It was once their choice to pay or not to pay. It will get paid via the force of the US Govetnment. Now, grab them slackers by the ankles and shake every last nickel and penny from their pockets. Grass, so, or gas. Nobody rides for free.
    To repeat, it’s just the cost of doing business in the State of California. Like, the same reason CA gas is about a buck a gallon higher than the cheapest States to buy gas. Just the cost of living here. Somebody has to pay for the bullet train and our state employees’ pensions and surviving spouse’s healthcare. It might as well be you.
    The only losers are our roads. Even paying for Nevada County’s new homeless coordinator will be partially funded by raiding the county road fund. No mention yet of paying for her health bennies and pension. Another cost of doing business.
    Solution: raise taxes more! With 30% of our Nation!s welfare leeches residing in CA, we need a shitload of new taxes…..or else the bullet train ain’t going to happen.
    Tax the rich, tax the employer, tax the employee….tax petro, tax, tax, tax. Kinda of changes things when people are looking to you to fund their healthcare, now doesn’t it? But, but, but, it should be free and if not free, it should be cheaper! Now, Steve, be a good sport and pay your fair share, you capitalistic pig you. :).
    https://www.facebook.com/RowdyConservatives/photos/a.217983685002343.55586.217926015008110/1122130997920936/?type=3&theater

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  41. Paul Emery Avatar
    Paul Emery

    Well the ball is in the Republican court to come up with an alternative to the ACA. So far what they have proposed is a complete failure gathering the support of less than 20% of the American people and is losing wind as we speak with Rubio being the latest to question his support. It seems like going home during the senate break offers an overwhelming storm of dissent from their voting community.

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  42. Steve Frisch Avatar
    Steve Frisch

    Posted by: Paul Emery | 09 July 2017 at 10:37 AM
    Paul although I clearly agree with you that the Republican proposals have so far been a dismal failure I don’t think we have done any better here in California.
    I have not brought this up yet, and I know it is cause célèbre with “progressives” in Nevada County, and to be clear I am not attributing that to your thoughts, but I oppose the passage of SB 562, the Healthy California Singe Payer Health Care Act, at this point as well.
    My rationale is not that we should not go that route, I support single payer, it is that going that route is so important that it needs to be very carefully thought out, all of the costs and benefits need to be clearly understood, and the funding mechanisms need to be carefully constructed to be resilient to changes in economic conditions.
    I know there is a lot of debate over the costs and benefits, largely driven by the analysis done by Robert Pollen and his team at UMASS.
    Economic Analysis of the Healthy California Single-Payer Health Care Proposal (SB-562)
    https://www.peri.umass.edu/publication/item/996-economic-analysis-of-the-healthy-california-single-payer-health-care-proposal-sb-562
    The problem to me is three fold: 1) a decision this big should not be driven by a reaction to the fears that the ACA is going to be gutted in Washington and rushed to meet that challenge, 2) a decision this big needs rigorous open and extensive analysis of both the economics and the care to be provided, 3) the votes to get the taxes necessary in the time remaining n the session, and by the time that Assembly Speaker Anthony Rendon pulled the plug, and the process for the bill to go through the appropriate committees with the appropriate analysis, was not there.
    Ultimately we do have a legislative process and calendar and some political realities that we have to deal with. It would have done no good to go to a full floor vote on this, and a Governor’s signature, and fail.
    One could argue that Rendon or DeLeon could have included that in the process as the bill advanced, but I would argue that even the level of analysis that could be done in a single legislative session it is not significant enough for the scale of this decision. I read legislative analysis all the time–too much probably–and I know how limited their capacity to do the analysis is on a regular basis. A decision this big deserves a full, transparent, data and research driven, public process.
    So there are a lot of could have and should haves out there, but they were not satisfied in the process, and we are where we are. The last time we made a decision this big on the strength of a plan put together hastily we had an energy crises and we cannot afford a health care crises.

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  43. Todd Juvinall Avatar
    Todd Juvinall

    I have been chagrined that the R’s are dragging their feet too. I have communicated many times lately to the Senate Leaders. Repeal it with the same resolution you used when you all voted last year and sent it to Obama. I an sad that they are delaying. We will see.

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  44. Bill Tozer Avatar
    Bill Tozer

    Why not just keep Obamacare and sit back and watch it do its death spiral thing. To repeat, every client of the Hospitality House is eligible for Obamacare. What’s the problem here? Everybody can receive heath insurance now. Everybody is eligible to be insured. It’s perfect. Me thinks you are all just a bunch of tight wads. You would rather eat your children than part with a dollar. How friggin materialistic.
    Joe Biden said it is patriotic to pay taxes. Opps, the Left does not like the word patriotic. That be racist and we all know patriotism code word for Nazi. How about just Republicans and Green Libertations pay for the ride? They rest of you can sit around the barn and eat up all the hay. If bored, you can always walk around with your palms outstretched and facing upward. Maybe a little mana from heaven with fall into your palms. Never know.
    Ok, somebody has to step in and fix Obamacare. I find no joy in reminding the reader and our fakenewsman that ZERO Republican Senators and ZERO Congresspersons voted to for The Privacy Protection and AFFORABLE Care Act. Zero is a nice round number. Ok, we have to clean up the kid’s playpen. Guess we have to because the Dems are incapable of cleaning up after themselves. It’s the patriotic thing to do. I just like Boardman and Crabb and the Party of Enlightenment whining that it hits them in the ole pocketbook. That is a real pisser, ain’t it. Life ain’t fair and then you die.
    Ok, we will fix it, with no thanks to those with TDS…the ones who created this abomination.
    “I think Republicans are focused solely on the people who are hurting right now, who recognize that the [health care] system is collapsing. People in the near future are not going to have any choice in the marketplace. … It’s unfortunate that Democrats have no interest in solving a problem that they created.” —RNC Chairwoman Ronna McDaniel

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  45. fish Avatar
    fish

    Posted by: Steve Frisch | 09 July 2017 at 09:44 AM
    Once again Fish, the same or slightly health care at half the cost under 11 industrialized nations single payer programs.

    Don’t you want to fix the existing screwed up single payer (Medicare/Medicaid, VA, Indian Health System, etc.) systems that Uncle Sugar already mismanages before foisting another onto a gullible American public?

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  46. fish Avatar
    fish

    Posted by: Paul Emery | 09 July 2017 at 10:37 AM
    Punchy…..when Steve is here you’re no longer “tall enough for this ride”!

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  47. ScenesFromTheApocalypse Avatar
    ScenesFromTheApocalypse

    BillT: “Why not just keep Obamacare and sit back and watch it do its death spiral thing”
    Simple enough to avoid, just pay the insurance companies whatever money they demand. Either that, or start your own .gov insurance company that pays the health providers whatever money they demand. There, that was easy.

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  48. Bill Tozer Avatar
    Bill Tozer

    To be fair, Steve nailed it with his opposition to rushing into CA SSS. Let’s take our time and do it right, unlike those who rushed over here the very day after the election calling us David Dukers and DEMANDING to know exactly what Trump was going to replace The Affordable Care Act with….2 months and a couple weeks or so before Inauguration Day. Patience exploding heads, patience.
    I care more about covering the elderly and truly needy (like the mentally ill and disabled) than saving the State of CA money. The State just takes a pile of money and keeps tossing it into the political winds of the moment and we all wonder where it all went and where that last tax increase revenue disappeared to. Our roads lose too.
    Kudos to Steve for saying let’s get it right. Haste makes waste and the law of unintended consequences is always lurching ready to pounce.
    We had our “prescription drug crises” and Bush signed the Medicare part A-D act. Then Obama came in and was rather pissed that Medicare Part D took away too much money for his healthcare grand scheme. Now we have the “affordable housing crisis.” And the “death spiral Obamacare crisis” and the Short Fat Kid Metrosexual Korean Missle crisis” and Man Made Global Frying the Planet like a Frito Corn Chip Climate Change crisis,” and on and on it goes. At least let’s get the Obamacare “crisis” done right.
    In the meantime, if you can’t hold your horses and take a few deep breaths, you can always deal with all these crisis by jumping in front of cars….parked cars, to be more specific. Practice for the real freak out if you cannot restrain yourselves.
    Helpful hint: Congress writes the laws, not Obama or Trump. All Jerry Brown does is signs or vetos the bills placed on his desk.
    Kudos again to Steve for reminding us that this is too important to screw it up…again. And while I am at it, kudos to Steve for once saying he believes capitalism is the best method for distribution of goods and service. Mr. Frish may not be a true pinko, but let’s keep that quiet and not sully his reputation. Pinko Lite is sorta like a Democratic Socialist.
    There is so much ignorant (unknowing) misunderstandings about the health care industry and our health care delivery systems that it would be quite easy to screw it up again and launch us into yet another crisis.
    https://www.facebook.com/PatriotPost/photos/a.82108390913.80726.51560645913/10154869490040914/?type=3&theater

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  49. Gregory Avatar
    Gregory

    Any story that starts with a prominent photo of the Gruber himself has got to be worth reading, “Smug elites pay heavy price for incompetence” (that includes wannabee elites like you, Steve):

    Liberal elites are exasperated by the “deplorable,” “ignorant,” “uneducated” Trump supporters who only stop clinging to their guns and religion just long enough to vote against their betters. But American voters aren’t populists by nature. Washington, Jefferson, Wilson, the Roosevelts, even Barack Obama — all were economic or intellectual elitists who won the hearts of the masses.
    So why are they so out of favor today? It’s not your arrogance or condescension, my elitist friends.
    It’s your incompetence.
    Who gave us Obamacare? Why, super-genius Barack Obama and his super-smart pals including Jonathan Gruber. You remember Gruber. He’s the O-Romney-Care architect famous for claiming that the stupidity of the American people helped get Obamacare passed. And when it did, the Ivy Leaguers of The New York Times cheered.
    So how’s Obamacare working? To use a phrase I learned at a Harvard symposium on health care policy, it stinks. It didn’t keep its promises (did you get to keep your doctor?) and it’s in economic collapse.
    http://www.bostonherald.com/opinion/op_ed/2017/07/graham_smug_elites_pay_heavy_price_for_incompetence

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  50. George Rebane Avatar

    CA single payer: “Doing it right.” Some of us think that not doing it at all is doing it right.

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