Rebane's Ruminations
July 2017
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George Rebane

Union columnist Terry McLaughlin writes an excellent expose of nationalized healthcare in the newspaper’s 6jul17 edition – β€˜Government run healthcare wouldn’t be cheaper; more efficient’.  In there she includes a detailed report from New Zealand, one of the countries often cited by socialists of how a healthcare system should work.  As you might expect, the revelation isn’t a pretty picture, but it is one of which RR readers are very familiar.

SinglePayerHealthcareThe bottom line of all this push toward a (horribly misnamed) β€œsingle payer system” (SSS) is that, for all the reasons known to thinking people everywhere, no country has a laudable and/or sustainable government run healthcare system.  All of them are ragged bureaucracies, delivering already bad services for a very high price.  And all of them are looking for ways to deliver even less at a higher cost in ways that are difficult to discover while you’re healthy, and that immediately obvious but too late to fix once you become a victim (aka β€˜patient’).

I recommend Ms McLaughlin’s review of why we should do everything possible to avoid a SSS, and at the same time open up the delivery of healthcare products and services to the widest array of competent suppliers.  To argue that our pre-Ocare system already did that demonstrates a gross ignorance of our national economy, existing healthcare systems, and current affairs.

Finally, let’s dwell for a moment on the almost hysterical push for SSS we hear in the lamestream and in the exhortations of leftwing politicians, to remind us again of the seminal differences between people devoted to all things collectivist, and those who promote freedom, entrepreneurship, and market-driven solutions.

When in a social setting, peel back the daisy talking veneer of a collectivist, and you are instantly flooded with a monologue detailing the evils of selfish individualism and greedy capitalism, the remedies for which are government, and yet more government.  By definition, the collectivist sees a fulfilled human as one drawing all things good from being a compliant member of a politically legitimized collective.  By himself, the individual is nothing but a suffering derelict cast adrift on a sea of socially destructive competition that worships raw merit which inevitably gives rise to inequality and injustice.  It is the establishment, expansion, and submission to a comprehensive collective which gives rise to a society that provides succor to all of our β€˜legitimate needs’ through a correct redistribution from those who can and must, to those who can’t or won’t – β€œFrom each according to his ability, to each …” (Marx, et al).  Examples of such collectives still abound.  

[update]  For those true believers in government healthcare, we draw examples of β€˜healthcare from hell’ right here in the good ol’ USofA.  Everyone by now has heard, save perhaps the devotees of the lamestream media, of what the Veterans’ Administration has done in caring for the health of our veterans.  To this we can add the atrocity that is the system of, yes, federal hospitals charged with providing healthcare to Native Americans (pc for American Indians).  To get a snootful of what we can expect from SSS, and others around the world are already getting, you can read β€˜β€˜People Are Dying Here’: Federal Hospitals Are Failing Native Americans’ in which we find that – In some of the nation’s poorest places, the government health service charged with treating Native Americans failed to meet minimum U.S. standards for medical facilities, turned away gravely ill patients and caused unnecessary deaths, according to federal regulators, agency documents and interviews. … The IHS, a unit of the Department of Health and Human Services, operates a network of hospitals and clinics, much like the Veterans Health Administration. Under U.S. treaties that date back generations, the service is legally responsible for providing medical care to about 2.2 million tribal members.

[8jul17 update]  I couldn’t figure out where to post the tragic story of little Charlie Gard – the lamestream had no problem with just judiciously ignoring it – whether it is an example of hellish healthcare or of yellow (aka progressive) journalism.  Charlie suffers from a rare genetic disorder that gives him a very small chance of surviving, and that small chance is being reduced to zero by the National Healthcare System of the British government whose death panel has ruled that the state 1) will not let Charlie’s parents, at no cost to the UK government, take Charlie to the US for treatment, 2) deemed Charlie’s case too expensive to treat under their NHS β€˜single payer’ system (which is financially on its ass), and 3) have taken Charlie away from his parents and made him a ward of the state whose life will be officially terminated (they will β€˜pull the plug’) so that β€œhe can die with dignity” and fulfill his state determined “duty to die”.  UK’s socialist controllers cannot afford the precedent of returning the decision for an ailing person’s fate to his family.  Our progressives are purposely blind to these goings on, but the rest of us should pay close attention to how this plays out so that we can correctly evaluate the Left’s Single Payer Über Alles that is coming down the pike. (more here)  For a wider and deeper understanding of what’s in store for us, explore the widespread advent of state promoted ‘duty to die’ euthanasia across Europe.  I suppose ordering your premature death is probably the most direct way for governments to reduce the extent and cost of services of their socialized healthcare systems.

Posted in , , ,

278 responses to “Healthcare from Hell (updated 8jul17)”

  1. Steve Frisch Avatar
    Steve Frisch

    Posted by: Gregory | 08 July 2017 at 09:23 AM
    So let me see if I have this right Greg,
    “I was thinking more of education, teen pregnancies and shooting each other in gang disputes. The reasons why, in general, black male in DC life expectancy is about 66 years while Asian female life expectancy in Massachusetts is closer to 92 years, and that’s not because of socialized health care.”
    So your case is that because we have more teen pregnancies and a proliferation of guns, more of our young people and minorities are dying….
    (your choice to pick a black man in DC even though gun deaths are higher states with loose gun laws like Oklahoma and Arkansas https://qz.com/437015/mapped-the-us-states-with-the-most-gun-owners-and-most-gun-deaths/)
    …that kind of seems like a case for better education, access to preventive care for women, and stricter gun laws than a case against universal single payer health care.

    Like

  2. Steve Frisch Avatar
    Steve Frisch

    Posted by: Todd Juvinall | 08 July 2017 at 09:53 AM
    Hey Toddster, as the CEO of a corporation (non-profit or not) I pay $128,000 per year for health insurance for my staff of 20 and their dependents, meaning my guess is right now I know a hell of a lot more about shopping for health insurance than you do.
    You are also factually incorrect that “it worked great before the democrats and Obama wrecked it..” we were ranked 237th and had double the cost before Obama was even a state Senator. The rate of inflation for health care was 3 times higher than the national rate of inflation during the Bush administration.

    Like

  3. fish Avatar
    fish

    Posted by: Steve Frisch | 08 July 2017 at 09:32 AM
    If the money went to the government as an intermediary and the cost went down by 50% would that help or hurt the hardworking citizens you claim to be stating up for?

    I’m pretty sure that nobody will be able to improve on this “Unintentionally Hysterical Line of the Day”!

    Like

  4. Scott Obermuller Avatar

    “I find it ironic that the answer to the question is anchor babies…”
    No Steve – I never claimed that was the whole answer. Just part of it.
    “Is the case you are going to make now that anchor babies from Mexico have worse prenatal care than anchor babies from Syria?”
    No. It appears that Steve has given up having a discussion and is now just fabricating stuff.
    “I am sorry, I am still trying to figure out how you can possibly rationalize US citizens paying twice as much for a marginally worse outcome just because the payments get funneled through the top 10 health insurance companies in the US who control about 95% of the market?”
    Now Steve runs back to Obama’s famous tack. If you don’t agree to socialized medicine then you can only be for the status quo.
    Sorry – no again, Steve. I’m for all sorts of changes to our health care system.
    As far as it coming down to immigrants – well – you pass free health care for everyone in this country and I can guarantee you a mass of illegal entry to the US like you’ve never seen. All they have to do is make it to the hospital or emergency care and they win the jack pot. Why do you think California backed down from doing free health care? It would have bankrupted the state within a year, with folks from all over pouring in for their freebies.
    That’s why the left wants it nationally – the feds can print money and run up debt.
    And finally – Steve comes up with the winner line of all –
    “If the money went to the government as an intermediary and the cost went down by 50% would that help or hurt the hardworking citizens you claim to be stating up for?”
    Steve apparently just fell off the turnip truck right next to the union hall.
    Costs will go down 50%??? Is that like the 2.5K I was supposed to save?
    Maybe Steve should look into the actual history of the US govt getting involved in health care. Costs to whom? And if we don’t like govt health care, what option are we left with if the govt has the monopoly on health care?

    Like

  5. fish Avatar
    fish

    Posted by: Steve Frisch | 08 July 2017 at 09:58 AM
    Anybody wants to check out Steves link needs to drop the “close parenthesis” at the end or it comes up error 404.

    Like

  6. Todd Juvinall Avatar
    Todd Juvinall

    Frisch 1004
    No you are not paying anything. The taxpayers are getting hosed twice by SBC. If you made the employee pay the bulk of their own costs (and I bet they are young folks) that would free up more money to you for buying more property (which is also a negative to the treasury). Anyway, you appear to have no clue about this issue other than liberal talking points from Daily Kos and you tweets from the dems.
    Oh I am correct about the health insurance issue before Ocare. Polls had people’s happiness with their postions at about 90%. Pretty high.

    Like

  7. George Rebane Avatar

    A general note to SteveF and others who believe that every lap around a much circled barn (here nationalized healthcare) begins on the current page of RR. Detailed citations of the actual state of Europe’s (let alone communist countries’) healthcare systems have been provided abundantly here. The existential truth is that socialism, as illustrated by its various resdistribution and command/control policies is not and never has been sustainable for all the explained reasons. Here’s a typical cited posting from the comment stream SteveF et al were conspicuously absent.
    http://rebaneruminations.typepad.com/rebanes_ruminations/2016/05/sustainability-and-single-payer-revealed.html#more
    But a specific response to longevity statistics is in order. Yes, it is widely known and extensively studied that 1) Americans en masse freely exercise unhealthier life styles (made available by our wealth and markets), and 2) yes, some ethnic groups differentially engage in particularly unhealthy eating, drinking, and drug practices (not restricted to the US, see mortality of Finns eating lots of butter), and finally 3) current day medical practices are still too primitive to have a significant effect beyond core human mortality rates, which they affect mainly on the margins (but they now have positively affected morbidity rates).
    And here is a previously presented general rebuttal to national healthcare –
    https://www.cato.org/publications/policy-analysis/health-care-free-society-rebutting-myths-national-health-insurance

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  8. Gregory Avatar
    Gregory

    Frisch 958
    “So let me see if I have this right Greg”
    Of course you don’t, Steve.
    “…that kind of seems like a case for better education, access to preventive care for women, and stricter gun laws than a case against universal single payer health care”
    Funny that in Washington DC, a huge amount is spent on K-12 education, not to mention preventative care for women (like abortions) and has had the strictest gun laws in the country, only fairly recently pried open somewhat by Scalia’s majority opinion in DC v. Heller in 2008.
    “Gun deaths” are predominantly suicides, which is why folks like you on a vendetta against private gun ownership and the collectivist view of the 2nd Amendment use “gun deaths” as a metric rather than murder and other intentional criminal homicides in citations. The availability of a gun doesn’t make someone suicidal but it does make the suicide attempt marginally more likely to succeed.
    Here’s the old WHO report http://www.who.int/whr/2000/en/whr00_en.pdf
    The table with France at the top and the US barely beating out Slovenia and Cuba is on page 200 (209). Those socialized medicine shining lights such as Canada, Denmark, Finland and Australia aren’t that much better than the USA by their methodology.

    Like

  9. Steve Frisch Avatar
    Steve Frisch

    Seriously Todd you don’t know anything.
    First SBC derives a very small portion of our revenue, less than 20%, from public sources, and to do that we provide a service which would likely cost more from the private sector.
    Second, you must not understand how a tax tempt corporation works—it merely means that revenue derived from activities that fulfill its tax exempt purpose do not pay income or corporate taxes–not that its revenue is derived from taxpayers. I can understand why you wouldn’t understand this because although the organization you ran, CABPRO, claimed to be a nonprofit it was not, thus putting your donors in the position that if they claimed donations as tax deductible they were unwittingly lying to the IRS.
    Third, SBC does not and never has purchased property for conservation or claimed an exemption for property…you must have us confused with a land trust. You do realize that land protected for conservation does still pay property tax right? It is up to the local tax assessor to decide if they want to reduce the value of the property and thus its assessed valuation due to a change in valuation, just like an other property owner.
    Finally, when I stated SBC’s pays health insurance I did not say ‘our portion’, we pay 100% of our employees health insurance costs.

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  10. Steve Frisch Avatar
    Steve Frisch

    Posted by: George Rebane | 08 July 2017 at 10:33 AM
    They may be abundant and incorrect at the same time πŸ™‚

    Like

  11. fish Avatar
    fish

    Posted by: Steve Frisch | 08 July 2017 at 10:44 AM
    Since the question is back on the table……just what magic do you perform for PG&E that is worth 4.5M/year (approximately – before Charity Guidestar put the info behind an account wall)?

    Like

  12. George Rebane Avatar

    SteveF 1045am – Excellent! we have then settled the matter by abundantly airing our respective views and agreeing that the other’s citations are incorrect.
    Perhaps we should then move on to a debate on the more fundamental aspects of what defines reality (e.g. ontology) for the Right and Left.
    http://rebaneruminations.typepad.com/rebanes_ruminations/2008/02/liberals-and-co.html
    http://rebaneruminations.typepad.com/rebanes_ruminations/2010/11/the-latest-volley-from-the-local-left.html
    http://rebaneruminations.typepad.com/rebanes_ruminations/2013/02/ideologies-and-governance-a-structured-look.html

    Like

  13. fish Avatar
    fish

    Posted by: George Rebane | 08 July 2017 at 10:57 AM
    Love it when you post the “Oldies”!

    Like

  14. Todd Juvinall Avatar
    Todd Juvinall

    It looks like Mr. Frisch is unfamiliar with what he is doing. My goodness. SBC is really in trouble.

    Like

  15. George Rebane Avatar

    For a more positive approach to healthcare reform, I point you to the 8jul17 essay by Dr. Eric Topol, a cardiologist and professor of molecular medicine at the Scripps Research Institute in San Diego. Therein he presents a compelling case for rapidly incorporating available AI and genomics based technologies into a healthcare system that involves heavy patient use of interactive applications and remote physiometric sensing. These are features of the healthcare system long promoted in these pages.
    https://www.wsj.com/articles/the-smart-medicine-solution-to-the-health-care-crisis-1499443449

    Like

  16. fish Avatar
    fish

    Speaking of “oldies”….here’s a goody going out to you all……more of the outrageous comedy stylings of young Ben Emery!
    George,
    From the fact that you blanket me into a Marxist camp is not only ignorant on your part but irresponsible. It shows more and more that a good education and normal to high intelligence doesn’t make a person immune to being ignorant. I am very busy this afternoon and will try once again to give you a the meaning of “rights”, especially human rights.
    Universal Human Rights Declaration
    http://www.un.org/en/documents/udhr/index.shtml
    Posted by: Ben Emery | 28 February 2013 at 01:49 PM

    Article 29.
    (1) Everyone has duties to the community in which alone the free and full development of his personality is possible.
    (2) In the exercise of his rights and freedoms, everyone shall be subject only to such limitations as are determined by law solely for the purpose of securing due recognition and respect for the rights and freedoms of others and of meeting the just requirements of morality, public order and the general welfare in a democratic society.
    (3) These rights and freedoms may in no case be exercised contrary to the purposes and principles of the United Nations.

    Oh that Ben….he slays me every single time he posts!

    Like

  17. ScenesFromTheApocalypse Avatar
    ScenesFromTheApocalypse

    SteveF: “What functional difference does it make who is the intermediary, the government of a private health insurance company.”
    A good question. The corollary is “If insurance companies already provide a highly limited customer base (word of the day: oligopsony), why doesn’t the price come down?”
    It sounds to me like a small difference, although I expect that the back office at Anthem is more efficient than DMV. I don’t expect that killing off insurers and starting up the US Department of Insurance would make a lick of difference (maybe). Keep in mind that the insurance companies already do all of the gubmints insurance work. It isn’t like the feds actually administer all the different Medicare plans.
    I admit that there is this theory that if you magically got rid of a few tens of millions of insurance executive compensation plans, it would magically pay for everyones healthcare. Hopefully no one here is so silly as to think that.

    Like

  18. fish Avatar
    fish

    Posted by: ScenesFromTheApocalypse | 08 July 2017 at 11:25 AM
    I admit that there is this theory that if you magically got rid of a few tens of millions of insurance executive compensation plans, it would magically pay for everyones healthcare. Hopefully no one here is so silly as to think that.

    Abandon all hope ye who commit here/there!
    They are exactly this silly…..and more!

    Like

  19. Gregory Avatar
    Gregory

    Frisch?
    Frisch?
    Frisch?
    Frisch?
    Frisch 958
    “So let me see if I have this right Greg”
    Of course you don’t, Steve.
    “…that kind of seems like a case for better education, access to preventive care for women, and stricter gun laws than a case against universal single payer health care”
    Funny that in Washington DC, a huge amount is spent on K-12 education, not to mention preventative care for women (like abortions) and has had the strictest gun laws in the country, only fairly recently pried open somewhat by Scalia’s majority opinion in DC v. Heller in 2008.
    “Gun deaths” are predominantly suicides, which is why folks like you on a vendetta against private gun ownership and the collectivist view of the 2nd Amendment use “gun deaths” as a metric rather than murder and other intentional criminal homicides in citations. The availability of a gun doesn’t make someone suicidal but it does make the suicide attempt marginally more likely to succeed.
    Here’s the old WHO report http://www.who.int/whr/2000/en/whr00_en.pdf
    The table with France at the top and the US barely beating out Slovenia and Cuba is on page 200 (209). Those socialized medicine shining lights such as Canada, Denmark, Finland and Australia aren’t that much better than the USA by their methodology.

    Like

  20. Bill Tozer Avatar
    Bill Tozer

    Hello. Disinterested third party Bill weighing in.
    I am hearing a new twist of the SSS argument going around. Instead of stating how much money the individual will save under SSS, the agrument is how much CA will save. A Union commentator Pinky said it will save CA 50 billion bucks, Laurie Porter wrote yesterday SSS will save our State Government 35 billion clams a year.
    “Single-payer health care will not cost California money. California currently spends over $365 billion a year on health care which includes Medicare, Medicaid, CHIP, ACA subsidies, emergency room subsidies, insurance premiums for employees, costs to keep county hospitals open, mental health services, money spent by employers on health insurance premiums and other health benefits, and money spent by individuals on premiums, co-pays, deductibles, fees, medical equipment, and so forth.”
    http://www.theunion.com/opinion/columns/laurie-porter-single-payer-health-care-will-benefit-california/
    So, here is my concern. We need to dismantle the entire employer sponsored health insurance system, group health insurance market (including union benefits) and add up the cost of all deductibles and co-pays the employee would use IF he used healthcare services or not in a given year) and throw in the cost of “medical equipment and so forth” so The State of CA can save money. Beam me up, Scottie.
    My relatively short venture into employer sponsored health insurance was a sweet deal. Just 14 years or so, but when I started the employer paid 93% of the premiums, ER was a $75 co-pay, and the only deductible was $2,200 if I was hospitalized for MORE than 30 days in a semi-private (2 bed max) room. The first 30 days had a one time 15 dollar co-pay. Visits to the Doc were 10 bucks and specialists were a one time fee of 25 bucks, with all tests, operations, lab work, X-rays, MRIs, etc free for the next 6 weeks and all follow up visits covered in the 6 week period. After 6 weeks of the specialist’s care and post op, the co-pay reverted back to the outrageous 25 bucks a visit. My last specialists charges between 600-900 bucks for a simple office visit. One charged $1,300 for a visit, but he was worth the 25 bucks. Sweet. Why use the friggin VA?
    When I quit Corporate America, ER was an outrageous 125 bucks co-pay, but it included everything that the hospital had to offer, including the medical kitchen sink. Doc co-pays jumped to 15 bucks, and the only deductioable remained for after 30 days in the hospital, which jumped to $2,700, billed later.. 30 days in the nut house or rehab was free. Employer portion dropped way down to 83%,. Plus my premiums were paid in pre-tax dollars, lowering my AGI for income tax purposes at tax time. Double sweet.
    So, if I understand this correctly, all that will be destroyed/dismantled/outlawed and IF I was still being a corporate shrill, I would be taxed more…..for less quality healthcare! All this to save Uncle Jerry and deadbeats and illegal aliens money???? Go pound sand.
    Disinterested third party Bill the Rebel without a Cause and Rebel without a Job checking out. Carry on.

    Like

  21. Bill Tozer Avatar
    Bill Tozer

    Or roads lose too

    Like

  22. Paul Emery Avatar
    Paul Emery

    George
    Healthcare from hell is what will happen to 23 million families who will lose whatever pathetic healthcare they now have under Obamacare.

    Like

  23. Paul Emery Avatar
    Paul Emery

    Re Georges 11:14… Does that involve having your own choice of doctors as Trumpcare promises?

    Like

  24. Don Bessee Avatar
    Don Bessee

    The po’ ol’ fakenewsman needs to read the CBO report @ 1257 and not party parrot Maxine waters. πŸ˜‰

    Like

  25. Todd Juvinall Avatar
    Todd Juvinall

    No they won’t. Tweak Medicaid a bit and all is good. They were much better off before Ocare since it is not possible to get to the policy. Deductibles and copays are too high. 23 million may have to fill out some additional paperwork but the other 300 million are going to be happy.

    Like

  26. fish Avatar
    fish

    Posted by: Paul Emery | 08 July 2017 at 12:57 PM
    Don’t worry Punchy….Obamacare isn’t going anywhere!

    Like

  27. Steve Frisch Avatar
    Steve Frisch

    Posted by: Gregory | 08 July 2017 at 12:22 PM
    Don’t get your overly sensitive man panties in a bunch there Greggy, I just had to go to the office to do a little work and stop by the Truckee Air Show to take a look at the planes.
    Good fun.
    You could go to any one of more than dozen international studies of quality and cost of health care and find similar statistics on the United States….for what we pay we suck…period. We could get the same heath care for half the price if we were more rational…but the funny little gremlins out there won’t let us be rational….because they can use health care as a lever to create fear…all the while failing to serve the very people they say they are the champions of, the hardworking or indigent people of America.

    Like

  28. fish Avatar
    fish

    Posted by: Steve Frisch | 08 July 2017 at 01:56 PM
    You could go to any one of more than dozen international studies of quality and cost of health care and find similar statistics on the United States….for what we pay we suck…period.

    Indeed….and in USA 2017 there is no fixing that we suck.

    Like

  29. Bill Tozer Avatar
    Bill Tozer

    Dr. Rebane @ 10:57 am.
    “Perhaps we should then move on to a debate on the more fundamental aspects of what defines reality (e.g. ontology) for the Right and Left.”
    https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10211627419136095&set=a.1023106092969.2004848.1084736013&type=3&theater

    Like

  30. Gregory Avatar
    Gregory

    My manly tidy-whities are far more appropriate than your frilly split-crotch panties in a knot, Steve.
    Yes, US healthcare has been stretched from the horrid system of indirect paying for it… person A doing work for company B buying insurance from insurer C for person A and their families, ONLY because of the historic screw up in the tax codes and WWII wage and price controls that made the untaxed “fringe benefit” of health care so popular.
    If Obama had insisted on rolling back that one provision that drives health care spending into the stratosphere, making healthcare benefits taxable income while making the change revenue neutral, we’d be on the way to something closer to a market solution already. Not that the GOP has the gumption to do it, either.

    Like

  31. Gregory Avatar
    Gregory

    We also pay through the nose hiring educational experts to teach the kiddies, Stevie.. and that’s how the DC schools manage to produce so many functional illiterates at from (depending upon the accounting methods) $18k to $29k per student per annum. California’s public schools aren’t that much better but less money per student is poured down the CA rathole.

    Like

  32. Steve Frisch Avatar
    Steve Frisch

    [Steve, do us all a favor and just give us a link to your banner propaganda graphic like other commenters do on a regular basis. Thanks. gjr]

    Like

  33. Bill Tozer Avatar
    Bill Tozer

    Love the vivid colors, Mr. Frisch. Brighter than most of my frilly panties. πŸ™‚

    Like

  34. Bill Tozer Avatar
    Bill Tozer

    Frisch:
    Q: Do you know why we aren’t like those other countries?
    A: Because we are not those other countries.
    If only we could be more Eurocentric. We can turn the Broad Street Furnishings building into a European style marketplace and then turn our healthcare system into a European model. Western European healthcare, preferably more northern Western European like Sweden. But, no. Big sigh.
    Wait a cotton pickin’ minute. That sounds like…drumroll please……like racism! Sounds like Trump’s defending “Westetn Civilization.” Them be racist code words. I know what you were thinking. How come you don’t like Muslims? Noticed you did not tout any nation’s from Africa or the Islamic World. Just France and Canada, Steve, Oh my, I do declare that you forgot to check your Lilly White Privledge at the door.

    Like

  35. George Rebane Avatar

    For those enthralled with the multifarious benefits of nationalized healthcare, I present one more example of them above in the 8jul17 update.

    Like

  36. Todd Juvinall Avatar
    Todd Juvinall

    The reason we have not gone the route of the Europeans and others who Frisch loves is simple. We have a Constitution like no other. We cherish choice (isn’t that what those libs preach all the time) and they preach government ownership of you. I suggest all those who want them should move there and leave us alone.

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  37. Steve Frisch Avatar
    Steve Frisch

    Posted by: Steve Frisch | 08 July 2017 at 04:41 PM
    Removed by George….seriously, I have seen other people embed graphics.
    http://cdn0.mha.gwu.edu/content/6b2c06e164a84520927f7b0043671b76/US_Health_Care_vs_The_World.jpg

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  38. Steve Frisch Avatar
    Steve Frisch

    “Q: Do you know why we aren’t like those other countries?
    A: Because we are not those other countries.”
    Posted by: Bill Tozer | 08 July 2017 at 05:19 PM
    “The reason we have not gone the route of the Europeans and others who Frisch loves is simple. We have a Constitution like no other. We cherish choice (isn’t that what those libs preach all the time) and they preach government ownership of you. I suggest all those who want them should move there and leave us alone.”
    Posted by: Todd Juvinall | 08 July 2017 at 05:57 PM
    Seriously I think you guys just love being stubbornly backward. Never mind that the data shows better care for less money and more satisfied clients…if it’s European it must be wrong.
    Can’t ever win on the data…so attack the idea as somehow un-American.
    Next you will be demanding that we rename pomme frites freedom fries.

    Like

  39. Todd Juvinall Avatar
    Todd Juvinall

    Actually, you are the one that is totally backward. Our ancestors escaped from the places you love and want to be like. We honor the individual. You honor canon fodder. We like to make our own decsions as individuals in America. We have had to fight off people like you all my life. You almost had the place but the American people tossed you aside on November 8. We on this side of the issue are all about the future for people to be free from you and your ilk. Your beliefs were tried many times and they all failed. Of course you can still move to North Korea or Cuba if you desire the commie fix you apparently desire.

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  40. Don Bessee Avatar
    Don Bessee

    What a perfect closing line to a post by a limousine liberal @620. Sounds like you had the Dark Lord of Liberal Lament Land in mind. How do you say chili in French? πŸ˜‰

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  41. Don Bessee Avatar
    Don Bessee

    @615- You could post your purty picture at the Dark Lords. πŸ˜‰

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  42. Bill Tozer Avatar
    Bill Tozer

    Pomme frites ? So, that’s what deep fried Twinkies are called in foreigner lands where folks eat snails, eh? Learn something new everyday.

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  43. fish Avatar
    fish

    Posted by: Steve Frisch | 08 July 2017 at 06:20 PM
    Seriously I think you guys just love being stubbornly backward. Never mind that the data shows better care for less money and more satisfied clients…if it’s European it must be wrong.
    Can’t ever win on the data…so attack the idea as somehow un-American.

    Well when the architect of the current plan is revealed to have said in essence….. the following:

    Let’s first look at what Gruber actually said: He was defending the fact that the law was written behind closed doors and he said Democrats intentionally made the law confusing to mask the fact that the law instituted a new tax to pay for health reform. Why’d the Democrats do this? Voters don’t like new taxes. Gruber said it was more important to get health reform than to be up front.
    “It’s a very clever, you know, basic exploitation of the lack of economic understanding of the American voter,” Gruber said at the Honors Colloquium 2012 at the University of Rhode Island.
    And: “They proposed it and that passed, because the American people are too stupid to understand the difference,” he said at Washington University at St. Louis in 2013.

    http://www.cnn.com/2014/11/14/politics/obamacare-voters-stupid-explainer/index.html
    …and President Bunnys famous line –

    “If you like your health care plan, you can keep it,”

    …..and trouser biscuits like Paul Krugman continuously bleating about the cost curve. I guess the technocratic class is just about out of fucking credibility Steve!
    (But hey…..by all means keep trotting out your marketing materials and all those government reports that you put so much stock in! You’re probably only one or two more .pdf files from establishing consensus.)

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  44. Steve Frisch Avatar
    Steve Frisch

    Posted by: fish | 08 July 2017 at 07:13 PM
    I am not talking about Obamacare Fish, but you are welcome to go down that road again….as a matter of fact you may be fated to since the President couldn’t pass a law to rename a post office for Ronald Reagan right now.

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  45. Don Bessee Avatar
    Don Bessee

    I see the eco warrior has picked up the party parrot job from the po’ ol’ fakenewsman @ 726. πŸ˜‰

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  46. Gregory Avatar
    Gregory

    The problem with your data, Steve, is that it is cooked… with the worst stat of the bunch being immunizations… and it’s the “progressive” crowd that isn’t immunizing their kids (which is their right, if they aren’t sending their kids to a public school). And then there’s the treating of life expectancy as a function of health care rather than the mix of cultures in the US vs monocultural gene pools… like Scandinavia, Japan, and formerly France and Germany (now, not so much).
    Stevie, a question you never answered… is the so-called “Sierra Business Council” a gun free zone and if the answer is yes, is it a real (meaning metal detectors) gun free zone or pretend (meaning it’s on the honor system)?
    George, regarding the sad case of little Charlie Gard, I think its a shame that the kid, already brain damaged from his rare malady, has parents wishing to submit him to a purely experimental treatment. Yes, I believe they should have a right to ask others to donate the money for the experiment planned for the kid and the government health service should have kept their hands off, but we do need to let go when it is time.

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  47. fish Avatar
    fish

    Posted by: Steve Frisch | 08 July 2017 at 07:26 PM
    Not my argument at all Steve. If you think you can sell European style health care after the blatant fuckuppery of O-Care I’m all ears as to how you’re going to get it rammed through!
    I’m going to make some popcorn and wait for your presentation!

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  48. George Rebane Avatar

    Gregory 737pm – not disagreeing with you, but that is not the issue I brought up. According to my lights, it’s the parents’ right and duty to determine when they should ‘let go’ of little Charlie. To rule otherwise has put us firmly on the road to a very scary brave new world which our leftwing neighbors like SteveF et al cannot wait to usher in. And I do note that we do address their criticisms of a market-driven healthcare system, yet they are silent when we present evidence countering govt healthcare which their lamestream also conveniently ignores. As I’ve stated before, we live in totally different worlds in which neither wants the other to prevail. And their most cynical argument, well exercised by the USSR and clients, is that we should just accept whatever autocracy the manipulated majority du jour decides, for after all, that is democracy (and aren’t we all for democracy?).

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  49. Todd Juvinall Avatar
    Todd Juvinall

    Parents should be left to that decision. No death panels needed from government.
    Frisch seems to have been shut down about his love for the governmet run health stuff. How any American would give up their personal sovereignty and allow the state to own their body is beyond me. Frisch must hate himself.

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