Rebane's Ruminations
July 2013
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George Rebane

Breaking Bread Edition #4 on Climate Change will be recorded this Monday at the NCTV studios.  The issues discussion program will be hosted by Eric Tombs and I will be one of Eric’s guests.  Climate change is, of course, today’s more acceptable term for global warming, specifically man-made or anthropogenic GW, specifically correctable AGW, and specifically ‘We just gotta do SOMETHING!!!’ AGW.  We had a pre-taping session the other day during which the strong argument of the true believers was again presented – consensus science.  When it was pointed out that 1) there is no consensus science on AGW, and 2) consensus science should send up red flags and wailing sirens whenever it is cited, things got a little heated.

What really nudged me to post on this was Matt Ridley’s Mind and Matter column in the 6jul13 WSJ titled ‘Science is about Evidence NOT Consensus’.  (Sadly, this is Dr Ridley’s last regular column for the WSJ.  The distinguished author and member of the House of Lords is returning to his many other pursuits.  I shall miss him.)  Ridley uses climate change as his example to teach how scientific propositions should be evaluated.  RR readers are well aware of his arguments which have made not a dent in some commenters beliefs on the matter.

Well, at our BB4 meeting it became clear that ‘Consensus Über Alles’ will be the one and only redoubt from which the adherents of climate change will sally forth.  The format of BB properly prohibits participants launching ad homonyms against their opposite numbers.  It is a forum where ideas are explained, and where ideas may then contend on their own merits.  However, today this topic is so asymmetrically supported by reason that it was suggested there should be no attempt to discredit consensus science if that is all one could muster to support energetic public policies to combat AGW.  The short of it was that opinions based on warm fuzzies should weigh equally with those more formidably armed – after all, are we not all equal?  But not to worry dear reader, the proposal did not carry.

Matt Ridley’s swansong admonitions are worthy recounting as we prepare for the 2,047,619th ‘discussion’ on climate change.

…the "consensus" about climate change only extends to the propositions that it has been happening and is partly man-made, both of which I readily agree with. Forecasts show huge uncertainty.

…science does not respect consensus. There was once widespread agreement about phlogiston (a nonexistent element said to be a crucial part of combustion), eugenics, the impossibility of continental drift, the idea that genes were made of protein (not DNA) and stomach ulcers were caused by stress, and so forth—all of which proved false. Science, Richard Feynman once said, is "the belief in the ignorance of experts."

So, yes, it is the evidence that persuades me whether a theory is right or wrong, and no, I could not care less what the "consensus" says.

The article is too short, but well worth the read.

[11jul13 update]  We taped BB4 last Monday (8jul13) evening at NCTV, and apparently it has already been aired, and will be again.  For the next showings please visit NCTV here.  It will soon be available for online viewing on the Breaking Bread website.

[19jul13 update] Remaining BB4 broadcast from NCTV are:

Thursday 7/18/2013, 6:00 PM, Channel 11

Sunday 7/21/2013, 5:00 PM, Channel 11

Monday 7/22/2013, 9:30 AM, Channel 11

No word yet on when it will appear on line.

[26jul13 update]  The video of BB4 is archived and can be found on this page of the NCTV website filed under 18 July programs – or you can simply search the page (Ctrl F) with 'Breaking Bread'.

 

Posted in , , , ,

103 responses to “BB4 on Climate Change (updated 26jul13)”

  1. Russ Steele Avatar

    Scientific Heresy
    by Matt Ridley
    Angus Millar Lecture of the Royal Society of the Arts
    Edinburgh, 31 October 2011
    It is a great honour to be asked to deliver the Angus Millar lecture. I have no
    idea whether Angus Millar ever saw himself as a heretic, but I have a soft spot
    for heresy. One of my ancestral relations, Nicholas Ridley the Oxford martyr,
    was burned at the stake for heresy.
    My topic today is scientific heresy. When are scientific heretics right and
    when are they mad? How do you tell the difference between science and
    pseudoscience?
    Let us run through some issues, starting with the easy ones.
    – Astronomy is a science; astrology is a pseudoscience.
    – Evolution is science; creationism is pseudoscience.
    – Molecular biology is science; homeopathy is pseudoscience.
    – Vaccination is science; the MMR scare is pseudoscience.
    – Oxygen is science; phlogiston was pseudoscience.
    – Chemistry is science; alchemy was pseudoscience
    Ridley examines the AGW pseudoscience and concludes:
    In conclusion, I’ve spent a lot of time on climate, but it could have been dietary fat, or nature and nurture. My argument is that like religion, science as an institution is and always has been plagued by the temptations of confirmation bias. With alarming ease it morphs into pseudoscience even – perhaps especially – in the hands of elite experts and especially when predicting the future and when there’s lavish funding at stake. It needs heretics. Thank you very much for listening.
    Full Lecture Text is here:
    http://wattsupwiththat.files.wordpress.com/2011/11/ridley_rsa.pdf

    Like

  2. stevenfrisch Avatar
    stevenfrisch

    George, who else will be on the show? Who is presenting the case that climate change is occurring, that the human contribution is significant, that it is a serious problem, and that humans have a responsibility to mitigate its impacts and assist people and ecosystems with adapting to changed conditions?

    Like

  3. Bill Tozer Avatar
    Bill Tozer

    Mr. Frisch, it is unfortunately too late for you to present the consensus side on the show, which is really a show and not a debate because the debate is over.
    I think you would be great on air. Don an old tweed sport jacket, a nice curved tobacco pipe and speak with the commanding air of smugness with a not so subtle slight British accent. That in and of itself should be enough to convince everyone that you are correct and the others are illiterate buffoons.

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  4. George Rebane Avatar

    stevenfrisch 704pm – I don’t want to blow Eric’s guest list any more than announcing my participation. But rest assured that the panel will be balanced on the divergent views, and the post-enquiry adherents’ arguments will be represented along with the those of the skeptics. Again, here are my views of some years ago, these still form the basis of my skepticism, which have also been embraced by a growing number of other science trained skeptics.
    http://rebaneruminations.typepad.com/Climate_Change_Format_22jan08.pdf

    Like

  5. MikeL Avatar
    MikeL

    I suggest that congresswomen Debi Wassermen Shlizt be on the panel… She is very convinced that hurricane Sandy is a direct result of man caused climate global warming change. Maybe Al Gore can come on to explain his fantasy sea level rise projections. Hopefully someone will be available to explain why nearly a “consensus” of the computer models that have been used to promote the AGW mime of a fiery future have not been able to accurately follow the flat temperature trend of the last sixteen years.

    Like

  6. stevenfrisch Avatar
    stevenfrisch

    Posted by: Bill Tozer | 07 July 2013 at 07:42 PM
    Why thank you Bill, I would have been happy to have been a guest to talk about what Nevada County organizations are doing re: “Dealing With Climate Change.” The organization I work for has done more than 1000 energy efficiency installs in small and medium sized businesses and municipal facilities in the last three years saving more than 21 million kWh of electricity and saving local entities more than $3 million per year. We are working with 17 local jurisdictions on greenhouse gas emission reporting. We are working on climate action plans in two jurisdictions that cover substantive portions of the Sierra Nevada, in Lake Tahoe and through the Fresno COG. In the last 12 years we have directly participated in the management of more than 75,000 acres of forest land. We have managed a process to restore more than 3,000 aces of forest in Nevada County burned in the Martis Fire. We have participated in the drafting and approval of both the California Forest Carbon Protocols through the Climate Reserve and the California Air Resources Board. We have participated in the acquisition of conservation easements on forestlands owned by Sierra Pacific Industries and Noarthstar-at-Tahoe. I would never imply that engaging in that work has made us experts but we do know a thing or two about what local entities are doing to ‘deal with climate change’.

    Like

  7. stevenfrisch Avatar
    stevenfrisch

    George, this is the regular program with Alan Stahler, Sharon Delgado, you, and Steve Baker? No guest?

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  8. Bill Tozer Avatar
    Bill Tozer

    Excellent Mr. Frisch. I like saving money and if comes by one of those light bulbs that looks like something you buy at Dairy Queen, then count me in. I like forests as well.
    I have been contemplating using a contraption known as a solar clothes dryer. It just takes a small diameter rope between 2 tress, but I haven’t figured out how to make it work on rainy days. And some clothespins. An idea I got from my Grandma. A penny saved is a penny earned.
    Wonder if I should use a hemp rope to attract the natural loving crowd, or a nylon rope to attract the penny conscious crowd. Need more marketing research.

    Like

  9. Todd Juvinall Avatar

    I bet when you add in the taxpayer subsidy dollars to the 1000 jobs Mr. F says he did the price per KW is way up there. Sort of like the solar panel hysteria. Or even those Prius or Volt cars. Way more expensive than regular cars. But hey, SBC gets to drill the taxpayers in two or three ways to make their dough. A grant to assist the homeowner,SBC gets a cut, the homeowner gets a tax credit and the SBC pays no taxes. A great way to drive a great country into the dirt. Thanks Frisch, you are a pip! The planet thanks you.

    Like

  10. Todd Juvinall Avatar

    I think this will get you to SBC’s 990’s filed at the state. Very interesting. I wonder if they were scrutinized by the IRS? LOL. What a scam.
    ?
    http://oag.ca.gov/charities/charity-research-tool#Location:Summary

    Like

  11. Michael Anderson Avatar
    Michael Anderson

    Hey Todd, regarding those Dutch relatives of yours, did they have anything to do with this? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tulip_mania
    Got Viceroy?

    Like

  12. stevenfrisch Avatar
    stevenfrisch

    Uh, yeah, well Todd is just talking off the top of his head now. The cost per kWh of savings in our program is about $0.30. But the savings go on for the life of the measure installed, so the savings in most cases go on for many years. Oh, and we don’t do residential properties (as I stated). We only do small and medium sized businesses and municipal facilities (like the projects we did at Wayne Brown and the Rood Center). Nevada County has been quite proactive in this area. There are no tax credits involved. And we hire local Sierra Nevada contractors and use local suppliers. I don’t think saving customers money is driving our great country into the dirt. At least the 1000 customers we have served don’t seem to think so. They are just happy to use less energy and have lower utility bills.

    Like

  13. Gregory Avatar

    I’m more concerned about who, besides George, stands for the skeptics/scoffers on this one.
    A question for Frisch… was that SBC’s energy efficiency handiwork at the Mowen Solinsky Gallery in Nevada City?

    Like

  14. Todd Juvinall Avatar
    Todd Juvinall

    Drisch, obviously you do not understand a solar subsidy. Especially the ones on a government building. Then you fail to answer the questions about cost per KW comparing your solar subsidy and a straight non-subsidy KW. You must nclude all the components, not just those you cherry-pick.
    Comparing thr Prius to a Hummer was my favorite since it proved the debacle of the Prius and the arguments of the “do-gooders”. When all components were compared over the lide of the vehicles the Hummer came out a better seal on the environment.
    I see MichaelA is attending the raunchy, nude filled drug fest called Burning Man again. I have a tenant qho used to go but now he says it is too bizarre for him. I think you need to be unhinged to go to that thing. MA must be a tad off upstairs.

    Like

  15. stevenfrisch Avatar
    stevenfrisch

    Posted by: Todd Juvinall | 08 July 2013 at 07:30 AM
    I am thinking you don’t know the difference between energy efficiency and distributed generation. Solar is distributed generation. We don’t do that yet. We install energy efficiency measures like controls, refrigeration upgrades, HVAC systems, LED lighting systems, monitoring software, etc. The figure I cited is the average one time cost per kWh of installed energy efficiency measures; for every $0.30 of TOTAL install cost we save 1 kWh of electricity for the life of the measure. Most measures have a shelf life of at eight years, and many longer. Thus a 8 year measure costs about $0.04 per kWh.
    And funny, Hummer is out of business and the Prius is the #4 best selling car in America.

    Like

  16. stevenfrisch Avatar
    stevenfrisch

    No Greg, Mowen Solinsky Gallery was not a customer under our program. They were customers under a previous program before we started the Sierra Nevada Energy Watch program.

    Like

  17. stevenfrisch Avatar
    stevenfrisch

    Ooops…I meant to post the link re: best selling cars in America:
    http://www.goodcarbadcar.net/2013/05/america-best-selling-cars-april-2013-usa.html

    Like

  18. Todd Juvinall Avatar
    Todd Juvinall

    Frisch, I am sure the taxpayers would like to know the payback time of their money. Is it one year, ten, 20? You don’t seem to inderstand the basics of economics based on your responses.
    Regarding the Hummer, I am not making a judgement on where they are today. The libs and the government along with a cooing press have made the Prius what it is and what the Hummer became. You libs started sttacking SUV’s back in the 90’s and like AGW were able to drumbeat it into brainwashed heads.

    Like

  19. Gregory Avatar

    “And funny, Hummer is out of business and the Prius is the #4 best selling car in America.”
    Not anymore, if ever. By the May YTD numbers, the Prius is #14 in the USA:
    http://www.goodcarbadcar.net/2013/06/usa-car-sales-rankings-by-model-may-2013-ytd.html

    Like

  20. Michael Anderson Avatar
    Michael Anderson

    Todd, you may be interested to learn that there is a registered art project at Burning Man this year called “The Juvinall.”
    It’s an interactive piece: a giant gasbag you can poke and it makes all kinds of hilarious noises. Plus, you can put it on a tether and walk it through a faux TCA scanner consisting of two squirrels who frown and scream in anger when they realize that the gasbag ain’t got no nuts.

    Like

  21. Gregory Avatar

    Let me guess… Steven Frisch, you might want to revise how you decided Prius was number 4 from the April chart you linked.
    It appears you singlehandedly doubled the Prius sales YTD.

    Like

  22. Todd Juvinall Avatar
    Todd Juvinall

    Michaela, you are certainly obsessed with my private parts. Are you excited?
    Tell us all how much of a carbon footprint you are creting when you burn the totem out there in the desert. All you nuts driving your smoke belching Volvos into the pristine desert of Nevada has to have a negative impact on global warming. Too funny.

    Like

  23. Gregory Avatar

    “[Mpwen Solinsky] were customers under a previous program before we started the Sierra Nevada Energy Watch program.”
    Who administered that previous program?

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  24. Gregory Avatar

    Add trucks and SUV’s and the Prius drops to #25, with Toyota barely selling more Prius models than Jeep sold Grand Cherokees:
    http://www.goodcarbadcar.net/2013/07/usa-auto-sales-rankings-by-model-june-2013-ytd.html

    Like

  25. stevenfrisch Avatar
    stevenfrisch

    Ooops….I misread the data…..I was wrong and you were right. I apologize.
    Still, Hummer, gone, Prius, popular.

    Like

  26. stevenfrisch Avatar
    stevenfrisch

    Posted by: Todd Juvinall | 08 July 2013 at 08:54 AM
    Every project is individually monitored and evaluated. The average payback is about 8 months, but many projects pay back in less time. The big stuff like refrigeration skews the numbers upward. The average life of a measure is 8 years, so at $0.30 per kWh installed and an 8 year average, the total cost installed is about $0.04 per kWh per year, or less than 1/4 the average rate per kWh for residential non-demand time electricity. This is why it makes sense for almost anyone considering the costs, and one of the major reasons why Californians use on average 1/2 the electricity the average American does per capita.

    Like

  27. stevenfrisch Avatar
    stevenfrisch

    Posted by: Gregory | 08 July 2013 at 09:18 AM
    Sorry Greg, I am not going to speak ill of our competition 😉

    Like

  28. Gregory Avatar

    Popular? Jeep sold more Wrangler SUVs than Toyota sold Prius sedans. Adding the Grand Cherokee and Wrangler sales (the latter being a mini-me)
    Chevy sold more Impalas than Toyota sold Prius. I didn’t even know Chevy still sold Impalas.
    The Hummer line died because they were never a great vehicle in the first place, and it didn’t fit the Government Motors forward plans.

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  29. Gregory Avatar

    That dangler should have read “Add all the Jeeps together and you get more than twice as many Jeep wheels as Prius wheels on the road.

    Like

  30. stevenfrisch Avatar
    stevenfrisch

    Posted by: Gregory | 08 July 2013 at 10:12 AM
    Jeez, Greg, don’t you know how to just say thank you?
    14th is still popular. There are hundreds if not thousands of automobile models in the country.
    At 11 mpg @ $4.00 per gallon it would cost $36K to do 100,000 miles in the Hummer, and $8,000 to do it in the Prius. for the price of the difference in gas over 100,000 miles you could buy another Prius!.

    Like

  31. Todd Juvinall Avatar
    Todd Juvinall

    Frisch still doesn’t understand the point I made on the Prius and Hummer. It is just too complex for him I guess.

    Like

  32. stevenfrisch Avatar
    stevenfrisch

    Posted by: Todd Juvinall | 08 July 2013 at 11:18 AM
    Exactly what point are you making Todd? The imposition of fuel efficiency standards in the US has nothing to do with the failure of the Hummer. The fuel efficiency does…they are just expense pigs to drive. How about you make your point clearly in a simple declarative sentence?

    Like

  33. Michael Anderson Avatar
    Michael Anderson

    Todd asked: “…you are certainly obsessed with my private parts. Are you excited?”
    I am your mirror, Todd. If the mirror image is excited, then the answer is yes.
    Todd moralized: “Tell us all how much of a carbon footprint you are creating when you burn the totem out there in the desert.”
    The amount of energy “wasted” putting on the Burning Man project each year is equal to about an hour of 1 morning’s commute in Ventura, Los Angeles, and Orange counties. But I do appreciate your singling out an art festival for closure, as opposed to fixing L.A.’s ongoing wasteful transit policy. Typical for someone who’s garage calendar is stuck on 1952.

    Like

  34. Todd Juvinall Avatar
    Todd Juvinall

    Greg, I think SteveF makes many errors on his posts like the easy one on the Prius numbers. That is a major reason his credibility is so low.

    Like

  35. Todd Juvinall Avatar
    Todd Juvinall

    It looks like SBC got taxpayer grants of 800 thousand or so in 2011. No returns yet for 2012. His membership numbers bring in 23K or so so it looks like to me the SBC has shrunken way down and has become a tax sucking entity, sort of like planned parenthood.

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  36. stevenfrisch Avatar
    stevenfrisch

    Todd proves once again he does not know how to read a 990 form!

    Like

  37. Todd Juvinall Avatar
    Todd Juvinall

    Does it list a set of grants from the government for over 700K in 2011? I think I know how to read but if you are saying you are lying on your 990’s then I should ask for some clear analysis by the IRS, Sec of State and others so I can better understand what you have placed in your returns. You show your total “political” expenditures as $1200 or so. Is that correct?

    Like

  38. Gregory Avatar

    Jeez, Steve, you didn’t act any faster on this than I did regarding my error regarding your op-ed, and you want a bloody medal? Had I used you as a guide, I’d still be talking about your lying about the Prius being #4.
    Besides, since the issue that prompted it was the Hummer/Prius comparison, and your choice to exclude all trucks and SUVs when citing a list excluded all of the Hummer-like vehicles in the first place. Yet another lie-of-omission by you, Steve, a habit you should kick. The Prius is #25, not #5 or 4 by the original comparison, and the Prius numbers are dwarfed by the totals for the top 10, in round numbers, nearly 2 million vehicles YTD, ~25 times the Prii.
    For lifetime low energy and repair costs, it’s hard to beat the Corolla or a Jetta TDI, neither of which require exotic and very expensive batteries to be replaced on a regular basis.
    So, you just don’t want to say who worked the PG&E effort for the gallery in Nevada City; I somehow doubt it’s an issue of not wanting to badmouth the competition.

    Like

  39. Gregory Avatar

    “At 11 mpg @ $4.00 per gallon it would cost $36K to do 100,000 miles in the Hummer, and $8,000 to do it in the Prius. for the price of the difference in gas over 100,000 miles you could buy another Prius!.”
    Hmm, what lie of omission might be lurking here… add a few thousand for replacing the battery pack. Even if the owner gets it under warranty, other Toyota drivers are paying for it.

    Like

  40. Bill Tozer Avatar
    Bill Tozer

    The good think about a Prius is once you get inside and push the gas pedal, suddenly your farts don’t stink.

    Like

  41. Ken Jones Avatar
    Ken Jones

    Greg
    There are many examples where the battery in a Prius has a long life cycle. I included a link of a Taxi company that had a very long life for batteries. Don’t know if this is typical but illustrates that the argument that a Prius is not a green or clean vehicle is without premise.
    http://motorauthority.com/news/1023454_toyota-prius-taxi-tops-340000mi-dispels-battery-myth

    Like

  42. stevenfrisch Avatar
    stevenfrisch

    Todd, once again you are reading the 990 form wrong. I suggest you download the IRS handbook and look at the step by step instructions.
    The number you are referring to is Section VIII Line 1 e. of our return. In that line it identifies $713,483 coming from “Government Grants”. According to the IRS handbook that line is used to describe all revenue not coming from “Membership Dues, Fundraising Events, Related Organizations, and ‘other’”. Contributions that come from federally recognized private foundations are reported in Line 1. e., thus all private foundation revenue was reported here. Since you don’t really follow these things I would not expect you to know this without reading the manual, but since you insist on providing false information I thought I should correct you.
    In addition you stated, “it looks like to me the SBC has shrunken way down”. SBC’s 990’s show revenue in 2010 of #2,066,040 and revenue in 2011 of $2,427,413, an increase of about 17%. 2010 net assets were $112, 975’ 2011 net assets were $371,212–they tripled.
    And yes, we spent $1,200 on outreach to elected officials, which is 0.00049% of our budget.

    Like

  43. stevenfrisch Avatar
    stevenfrisch

    Yes Greg, and the transmission could go out on your Grand Cherokee as well. I have had my Honda Hybrid for 10 years now and never had to change the battery. Prius batteries can last a very long time if cared fro properly, but really, its just another part.

    Like

  44. fish Avatar
    fish

    Howdy boys…welcome to the future.
    http://www.economist.com/blogs/babbage/2013/07/diesels?fsrc=nlw|newe|7-8-2013|6081501|36317366|

    Like

  45. Russ Steele Avatar

    fish,
    Bring it on! I love my GMC Diesel Pickup and look forward to our next sedan being a diesel, that is if the Volvo X-70 every dies and needs a replacement.

    Like

  46. fish Avatar
    fish

    I love my GMC Diesel Pickup and look forward to our next sedan being a diesel, that is if the Volvo X-70 every dies and needs a replacement.
    I test drove the VW Jetta and loved it. Can’t justify the expense yet…..some day!

    Like

  47. Gregory Avatar

    My Corolla/Prizm has something like 150k miles without any work besides repairing rear end damage (like when I stopped for the school bus flashing red lights that Ford F-series truck behind me didn’t stop for) that would have totaled a Prius. That was the second time the Prizm got smashed from behind; I suggest Steve ‘meet his maker’ and talk to my late wife to get the details on that one, assuming he gets a similar final address… Her beliefs, not mine.
    No, the battery isn’t just like any other part that needs replacing. Even if a hybrid doesn’t self declare the need to get it replaced, MPG decreases with lower capacity, ending up with just about the same mileage of a standard car with the same engine size, and less acceleration.
    A clutch kit with all the parts needed for my Corolla/Prizm is $134 and in stock at Riebe. I keep waiting for the need, but my bro who once had the same car still had his original clutch at 250k. A short block engine would cost maybe $1600, still about half of what that battery might cost you, and that hybrid also has a similar gas engine; that short block is more like $2000.
    The hybrid is a Rube Goldberg technology that pays off only if you don’t look at the higher maintenance, repair and insurance costs.
    Simple is better.

    Like

  48. Todd Juvinall Avatar
    Todd Juvinall

    SteveF, I think you have confirmed that I am correct and you are dodging. Why don’t you give us all the list of grants comprising the 770k? If I am misreading the term commonly used and listed in your 990 as “government grants” then I humbly apologize. Your explanation reminds me of the US Army’s 52 page recipe for chocolate chip cookies. You make a good bureaucrat SteveF.

    Like

  49. Ben Emery Avatar
    Ben Emery

    Greg,
    An expert on cars as well, who knew? We own a hybrid since my wife does so much traveling for her work, equine therapist. We are about to move past the 300,000 mile on it and it is running fine. On the other hand I used to own a high sierra 3/4 ton that couldn’t keep an exhaust manifold seal for more than a few thousand miles. It made the engine extremely loud, dropped the power, and the already horrible gas mileage got even worse. Sold the son bitch and went on a 3 month back packing trip with my Dad and brother to Alaska. The best thing that truck ever did for me.

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