Rebane's Ruminations
September 2011
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George Rebane

This Sunday, 11 September 2011, Nevada City hosts Constitution Day with a big parade and a day-long celebration of Americana in its streets, parks, and shops.  This has been a community tradition since 1967, drawing together local organizations, residents, and visitors who come from far and wide to witness a ‘home town classic’ celebrating our unique nationhood.  The day will have additional significance since it also marks the tenth anniversary of the attack on America by coordinated teams of Muslim terrorists.  (see Union article)

However, on the same day there is scheduled an alternative venue in half-hour away Penn Valley for those folks who would rather gather in a more Americana-free celebration called ‘MannaFest’ that proclaims ‘Community Unity NOW’.  It is advertized “to change Fear into Love & Compassion” with opening prayer and “ceremonies performed by: Maidu Indian Tribe Sierra Center of the Spiritual Living”.

This is the cynical progressive version of community unity that matches the sermons from the other side of their mouths decrying their role in fostering the Great Divide (search RR).

(The discerning reader will note another example of how spirituality and the transcendence of Man is selectively accepted as long as it is laundered of Christian tinges.  At other times the secular humanist makes sport of belief systems that reach for something beyond oblivion to inform and comfort our existence.  It is indeed the brave new world of yesteryear to which they want us to return – ‘This time we’ll do it right’.  Where will they build the new walls to keep us all in?)

[10sep2011 update]  Today’s Union in an article by Paul August reveals that the MannaFest ads for community unity were just a come-on for something much more political and serious.  What the gathering will really be is the “9/11 Worldwide Peace Festival” sponsored by the Peace Center of Nevada County.

To me this is a most cynical turn of events.  Not that we can’t continue having leftwing celebrations for peace; but scheduling such on 11 September 2011, and naming the event after the most dastardly and deadly surprise attack on the United States by a culture that is in a self-declared war on the west – an attack that left the streets of Islam’s cities filled with millions of Muslims screaming with joy, and deliriously celebrating what their fanatical suicidal brethren had accomplished with four hijacked airliners.  That all seems to me to be more than over the top and of a piece with the proposal to build the carefully named Cordoba Islamic Community Center and Mosque at Ground Zero.

One wonders the response in 1951 to the Japanese wanting to erect the Tora-Tora-Tora Shinto Temple and Community Center on Ford Island opposite the Arizona Memorial, and the attendance at local ‘December 7th Peace Festivals’.

It looks like this Penn Valley event was always planned for an audience of more than just ‘aging hippies’ as some have advised.  We are a changed country indeed.

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176 responses to “Community Unity – Liberal Version (updated 10sep2011)”

  1. Paul Emery Avatar
    Paul Emery

    Yeah Brad
    This whole discussion seems a little weird. I know George has something he’s trying to say but using ManaFest as a mantle for discussion is a little forced and raising the issue of disrespect for local business (D King) certainly ignores the business of Penn Valley, where the fest is happening. I give it the whatever treatment.

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  2. Paul Emery Avatar
    Paul Emery

    George
    I take it you are not a supporter of Machiavelli who believes it is okay for the “Prince” and his supporters to lie to enhance the standing and security of the state.

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  3. RL Crabb Avatar

    In response to your update…Perhaps the Japanese erecting a Shinto temple to honor the dead of WWII wouldn’t be a bad idea. After all, the Japanese found out the hard way what the consequences of a radical racist imperialist foreign policy were. So much so that they resolved to renounce violence in their constitution.

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  4. George Rebane Avatar

    PaulE – I wish I were as noble as that. Unfortunately, to promote the interests of its citizens, the state has always had to lie to other states – it’s one of the rules of diplomacy. But the state lying to its own people, that should be a no-no, to which one can give a pot full of exceptions.
    BobRL – Interesting point in light of the Japanese not being in a position or wanting to harm the US, and by having their non-violent constitution handed to them by MacArthur.

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  5. stevenfrisch Avatar
    stevenfrisch

    First, George, as a property rights advocate I am sure you would agree that the owners of the building, more than 3 blocks from ground zero, should be able to whatever they damn well please with their building, and government should not interfere, especially not if spurred on by the interference of ‘concerned citizens’.
    Second, God damn those peaceniks proposing peace on a day reserved to commemorate war! Now who could imagine that a day when almost 3000 people died would be a day to say, “Hey, we want peace!” Now who are they to think that peace and war are somehow connected? I agree, the flag waving, pin wearing, false patriots should get that day to themselves.
    And finally….”by a culture that is in a self-declared war on the west”. It is inherently inconsistent of you to claim that ‘ragheads’ only applies to some Muslims, thus you are not a bigot, then follow with a statement that an entire culture is uniformly engaged in a self declared war against the west. Since you reserve the term ‘raghead’ for those engaged in a war against the west, and condemn all members of the culture for being engaged, then the term ‘raghead applies to all members of the culture, and is bigoted.
    You are too clever for yourself George. Paul, and Ben, and Mike may fall for your word game nonsense, but I see it for exactly what it is; bigoted, religious motivated, propaganda. You learned at the feet of the masters.

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  6. Greg Goodknight Avatar
    Greg Goodknight

    “I take it you are not a supporter of Machiavelli who believes it is okay for the “Prince” and his supporters to lie to enhance the standing and security of the state.”
    Paul, maybe you haven’t actually read The Prince, but Machiavelli doesn’t discuss what is right or what is wrong. It isn’t about ethics, its about how politics works; a gift from N.M to a possible patron. It is up to the Prince to decide what their standards are.
    The famous “ends justifies the means” is from an old and poor translation. It’s actually more like, ‘when people judge a politician and there are no disinterested observers, the results will be taken into account’. The politics of personal destruction, taken to a high art by the Clintons, is in fact an application of this… any critic could expect the machine to go into hyperdrive to destroy their personal credibility as an honest observer. In short, the ethics of the Clinton machine wasn’t much better than those of Renaissance Italian city-states.

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  7. George Rebane Avatar

    Boy SteveF, nothing gets past you.
    Yes, I and literally millions of others believe that the overwhelming evidence (e.g. shown by the Pew Trust surveys) demonstrate that a large enough fraction of Muslims agree with the constant harangue and attacks by Islamists against the west, to qualify the “entire culture” assessment.
    I understand how many would also disagree with this, nevertheless that is my basis for the larger than smaller condemnation of the Muslim street. And on this side of the ocean, the paucity of couched condemnations by our Muslim neighbors is a very loud and clear silence.
    Bottom line, I do think that the Muslims who don’t have the caliphate agenda do have a problem. How do you denounce your holy scriptures and yet maintain your faith? Christians lucked out with their Great Commission in their scriptures by not having the ‘Accept Jehovah or Die!’ clause in there. (But as all know, even that didn’t stop the raping, pillaging and burning by the self-declared followers of Jesus. We were just able to drop it in the later years without having problems with apostasy.)

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  8. Paul Emery Avatar
    Paul Emery

    Greg
    I did read the Prince and I appreciate your distinction you offer. Also I read Machiavelli on Modern Leadership: Why Machiavelli’s Iron Rules Are As Timely and Important Today as Five Centuries Ago by Michael Ledeen. This guy is a real gem. He was one of the Neo Cons who scripted us into the Iraq war. One of my favorite Ledeen quotes is “Every ten years or so, the United States needs to pick up some small crappy little country and throw it against the wall, just to show the world we mean business.”
    He’s a real gem, a scholar for the American Enterprise Institute who believes it is ok to lie to your own people if it’s in the cause of nationalism.

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  9. Todd Juvinall Avatar
    Todd Juvinall

    I was interested to read this from the Union article on this Code Pink event.
    “Singer-songwriter Tom Wernigg has an acoustic folk style that’s full of surprising songs like “Jesus Wants me Dead.”
    Now maybe this song is about death and Resurrection? Probably not. Well, after reading the article it is clear these folks are the misguided participants of the interactions of the earths cultures.

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  10. Todd Juvinall Avatar
    Todd Juvinall

    Oh, and since this is about Egypt, check out this link which is a good example of the Egyptian street and how they feel about Israel and the west. Our middle east pals.
    http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/09/09/us-egypt-protest-idUSTRE7885PH20110909

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  11. stevenfrisch Avatar
    stevenfrisch

    OK I just wanted to be clear, the Muslims who don’t have a ‘caliphate agenda’ do have a problem, because their religion itself is the problem, so all Muslims are ‘ragheads’. Fine. Just drop the pretense of differentiating, because we are too smart to fall for your dissembling on this issue.
    Here is the definition from Webster’s:
    Bigot: a person who is obstinately or intolerantly devoted to his or her own opinions and prejudices; especially : one who regards or treats the members of a group (as a racial or ethnic group) with hatred and intolerance.

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  12. stevenfrisch Avatar
    stevenfrisch

    Oh, George, nice job not responding to the other two points re: property rights and the logic of celebrating peace on a day when so many died in violence.

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  13. George Rebane Avatar

    SteveF – I think we’re done, and it’s time for you to go back to simpler sites where nailbiter games with nephews is the fare.

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  14. stevenfrisch Avatar
    stevenfrisch

    Sorry George, I guess you got caught with your definitional guard down.

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  15. George Rebane Avatar

    Actually I’m willing to stick with my definitions. But SteveF, I’m not in your league in reasoning and logic, therefore it’s real frustrating attempting to use what tools I have there with you. Besides, we have widely different utilities, and I’m just beginning to conclude that you really are as you have been described to me. Therefore, working to find a common ground, or at least defined and mutually respected positions is futile. Vaya con Dios.

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  16. stevenfrisch Avatar
    stevenfrisch

    And you George are exactly as you appear to any intelligent observer. Caio.

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  17. Mikey McD Avatar

    Obama is a Bigot!
    “Bigot: a person who is obstinately or intolerantly devoted to his or her own opinions and prejudices; especially : one who regards or treats the members of a group (THE PRODUCERS, “THE RICH” THOSE, WHO CREATE JOBS) with hatred and intolerance.”

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  18. Mikey McD Avatar

    George, it must be noted (again) that your content is not being debated… just you as messenger.
    Unable to produce, they hate just to feel alive.

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  19. bill tozer Avatar
    bill tozer

    Dr. Rebane, we indeed live in changed times. I look around the “Berkley of the Foothills” and see streets named Zion, Calvary, Gethsemane and can’t but wonder what the rough and tumble yet God fearing founders of the town would do if they could see the kind of folk that populate the town now. Probably climb back in their graves. It remains puzzling to me that the aforementioned streets have not yet been changed to more palatable and inclusive names by the city’s more progressive thinkers.

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  20. George Rebane Avatar

    BillT – Petrograd became Leningrad before again becoming Petrograd.

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  21. Greg Goodknight Avatar
    Greg Goodknight

    Paul, thanks for agreeing Machiavelli didn’t say it was ok to lie.
    Now could you give me a citation for the Ledeen quote about ‘crappy little countries’?
    BTW as far as I can tell, neocon is just an n-word usually reserved for formerly leftist Jews who turned conservative when the socialist models worldwide were failing while the Democratic Party was lurching left, and apparently Ledeen no longer considers himself a neocon.
    Question… Can someone be a neocon if there’s nothing neo about it?

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  22. Paul Emery Avatar
    Paul Emery

    Here you go Greg
    Ledeen quote.
    From the National Review’s Jonah Goldberg. I hope that’s a Conservative enough source for you,
    http://www.nationalreview.com/articles/205187/baghdad-delenda-est-part-two/jonah-goldberg
    This quote is quite famous. Keep in mind Ledeen was a scholar at the American Enterprise Institute before and during our run up to the Iraq war. Here’s more on Ledeen from Ron Paul
    “Ledeen writes of a fortuitous event (1999): “…of course, we can always get lucky. Stunning events from outside can providentially awaken the enterprise from its growing torpor, and demonstrate the need for reversal, as the devastating Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor in 1941 so effectively aroused the U.S. from its soothing dreams of permanent neutrality.”
    Amazingly, Ledeen calls Pearl Harbor a “lucky” event. The Project for a New American Century, as recently as September 2000, likewise, foresaw the need for “a Pearl Harbor event” that would galvanize the American people to support their ambitious plans to ensure political and economic domination of the world, while strangling any potential “rival.”

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  23. Greg Goodknight Avatar
    Greg Goodknight

    I’m not a conservative, Paul, my interest here is the veracity of the quote: “here is the bedrock tenet of the Ledeen Doctrine in more or less his own words” is not exactly exact. It was a recollection ten years or so after the fact, and I suspect even a fellow traveler can miss a nuance or two over that amount of time.
    If you’re going to try to roast a guy like Ledeen, you might as well use his own words. It isn’t like he hasn’t written enough.
    This sounds like your Pearl Harbor quote: “You don’t ever want a crisis to go to waste; it’s an opportunity to do important things that you would otherwise avoid.”, but that one came from the Obama White House.

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  24. Todd Juvinall Avatar
    Todd Juvinall

    I like that summation by Goldberg who I think is very smart and has a finger on the pulse of reality. I like this quote of his from the article.
    “I know — from painful experience — that there are lots of people out there who subscribe to the bumper-sticker slogan “peace through strength is like virginity through f**king.” I had to argue with such folks through all of college (and much of high school). Such statements are black holes of stupidity — idiocy is crammed into such a small space that it folds upon itself and bends all reason and logic in its proximity.”
    It all prove how dumb and plastic liberal foreign policy is.

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  25. Greg Goodknight Avatar
    Greg Goodknight

    Back to George’s central message, our local peace center decided the best way to foster unity was to split the community in two on September 11.
    This makes sense… I remember at a Peace Vigil hosted by the same folks in the runup to the continuance of the gulf war, and instead of love, I saw more hate on the stage in the wee hours of the night than I have ever witnessed in Nevada City.

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  26. Brad Croul Avatar
    Brad Croul

    Let us not forget about that other group that chose not to participate in Nevada City on September 11 – the Roamin’ Angels. Like the Manna Fest, the car show also siphoned potential participants and spectators from the NC parade. The Angels observed 9/11 and Constitution Day in their own way. How should we view this isolationist group that would rather polish their cars than attend a parade on a Sunday afternoon? Do they care not but that they have an endless supply of cheap gas for their rods regardless of the human and environmental cost? (you all get that I am kidding here I hope, as I was also polishing my 1970 911 on 9/11 and I was also a participant in the parade. Actually, I was kidding about polishing my car. It needs a bath, bad.)
    Do we know that none of the Manna Fest or car show attendees were at the Constitution parade? I heard people talking about going to Penn Valley after the parade.
    I don’t think a peace demonstration is necessarily anti-American – it is merely pro-peace. There were also those who were having a good time on 9/11 in Nevada City before, during, and after the parade. Is this sacrilegious?

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  27. George Rebane Avatar

    BradC – I missed the Angels and car enthusiasts advertizing that they were attempting to promote ‘community unity’, let alone opting then for pro-peace. Capice?
    BTW, I do believe that Al Qaeda and the Taliban would fully support the Penn Valley peace demonstration, and possibly even send a few bucks to help promote some of the upcoming peace demonstrations held in the same vein. That’s the kind of ‘pro-American’ stuff those guys can really get into.

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  28. Paul Emery Avatar
    Paul Emery

    George
    That’s a really nasty response to some really nice people expressing what they believe. Are you saying they are aiding the enemy?

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  29. George Rebane Avatar

    Yes PaulE, I really do believe that Al Qaeda and the Taliban support “some really nice people expressing what they believe.” And I do believe such demonstrations do give comfort to those organizations. Am I saying that these “nice people” are traitors, or are friends of the ragheads, or have perfidy in their hearts against America? No. You can also aid the enemy through ignorance, and I believe that to again be the case here.
    For example, Lindbergh was a great American patriot and hero during WW2. But before Pearl Harbor, and our declaration of war, his America First activities (speeches, rallies, articles, radio broadcasts) gave great comfort to Hitler, Tojo, and even Stalin (before 22 June 1941). And that not because he wanted to comfort those scumbags, but because he believed America would be best served by not becoming a combatant in another European war.

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  30. Paul Emery Avatar
    Paul Emery

    So George
    Exactly what about this event that, in your opinion, unknowingly gives aid to the enemy? I really don’t get it. I read the Union article in detail and it seems like little more than a yearning for peace by students both here and in Egypt and a few activists who oppose our involvement in the Iran and Iraq wars. The Ron Paul Libertarians also are opposed to the wars. Are they unknowingly giving aid to our enemies as well?

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  31. George Rebane Avatar

    PaulE, you are now again into a realm of right/left explication wherein I exceed my limits. The reasons that elude you are to me so seminal that available time and space are inadequate, and energy fails totally in attempting an explanation. (I’m sure the feeling is reciprocal because to you the opposite is clear, so I’m not claiming an absolute here.) I foolishly thought my Lindbergh example was already embarrassingly condescending. But let’s just lay it down to chasms that cannot be bridged.
    Re the Ron Paul libertarians (lower case please, upper case is the political party to which Paul doesn’t belong), yes indeed, they also give comfort to our Islamist enemies. In short, any domestic initiative that seeks to limit America’s ability to project power globally would be favored by these devout and fanatical worshipers of Allah.
    As these pages attest, I am a definite benefactor and fervent supporter of America as hegemon. That is why I cannot embrace the total libertarian agenda and, therefore, take the more complex stance to which I have given the name ‘conservetarian’.

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  32. Paul Emery Avatar
    Paul Emery

    So then George, and this is a very important question, what avenues are available to critics of our foreign policy and military iterventions that do not give comfort to our enemy, as you describe it ?
    Recent polls indicate the American people want to bring our troops home from Afghanistan and Iraq. Does that not give comfort the enemy and should it not be publicly expressed?
    http://www.pollingreport.com/afghan.htm
    AS I recall Iraq is similar

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  33. Steve Enos Avatar
    Steve Enos

    The only thing missing from George’s bashing of the Manafest is saying the Manafest folks and those that dared to attend are trators and that they hate America and are commies.
    Paul… so do you at last understand what George is really about?

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  34. George Rebane Avatar

    PaulE, that is not a puzzlement. The nation is tired of a war that has been long, expensive, and for all intents ineffective. As we pull in our horns, slash defense budgets into the next decade, and keep our post-9/11 domestic fortress mentality, it is clear the Islamists have won this round. They have changed the world, and we have paid their expenses in doing it.
    You ask what avenues remain available to critics of our foreign policy and military intervention etc, I don’t see that any avenues have been closed. Do you? Those critics that foster reducing our ability to project power give comfort, those critics that argue for America remaining the world’s hegemon give pause to our enemies.
    The next real question here is, what financially viable choices do we have to defend America. Politically we seem to already have caved on our borders and our cultural skittishness to confront any ethnic group that challenges us within our homeland.

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  35. Todd Juvinall Avatar
    Todd Juvinall

    Why can’t the left accept the greatness of their own country? Liberals give aid and comfort to the enemy and it started in earnest during the latter part of the Vietnam War. We beat the crap out of the Viet Cong during the Tet offensive but the left turned the victory into a defeat through the press. We are the last great hope for the planet, we are proud of America and wish the left would get on board.

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  36. Ben Emery Avatar

    George,
    By our response the terrorists (not Islamists) won. A few hundred cult members planned and executed a terrorist attack and we have spent trillions, stripped civil liberties, bombed/ destroyed at least two sovereign nations, destabilized an entire region of the world, killed/ displaced millions of innocent civilians, and created who knows how many more times the amount of people on the planet that want to attack the US government.
    It was the out of control and unjustified response that put us in the situation we find ourselves in today. Despite not having an outlined mission, purpose, or real strategy our military men and women have done everything asked of them to the best of their and any armed forces ability. They removed the Taliban from power, they removed and captured Saddam, and they killed Osama bin Laden. They should be honored and those who sent them should be indicted and put on trial.

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  37. Paul Emery Avatar
    Paul Emery

    George
    Who are the cultural groups that challenge us within our homeland that we are skittish about confronting? And who is “us” ?

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  38. Douglas Keachie Avatar
    Douglas Keachie

    Hey, this country is really great. Look at the conservatives, who want to end the Dept of Energy and all that wasteful spending, especially 85% of the DOE budget that goes to, guess what? Nuclear Security. Small price to pay to get rid of the evil DOE..
    “Sept. 12, 2011 – Thanks to funding from the Colombe Foundation, the Educational Foundation of America and an anonymous donor, National Security News Service reporters spent the last two years investigating the most secretive institution in the federal government: the National Nuclear Security Administration (NNSA) and its radioactive weapons facility – the Savannah River Site (SRS).
    We call our multi-media investigation The Bomb Plant. It tells how a secretive and little known government agency, dedicated to modernizing and safeguarding nuclear weapons, reaped billions of dollars in the name of nonproliferation. After DOE wasted billions of Stimulus Act dollars on environmental clean-up at the nation’s nuclear weapons facilities, especially SRS, NNSA took control to hide the problems.
    Begun in the Bush administration, NNSA eats up 85% of the Department of Energy (DOE) budget. It has bipartisan support in Congress. It became one of the most powerful agencies in the U.S. government by successfully compromising its opponents.”

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  39. Douglas Keachie Avatar
    Douglas Keachie

    George, following your logic of giving aid and comfort, any American who doesn’t dedicate himself and all his resources 7/24/365 to helping the anti Islam war effort is obviously an Islamosyph. No vacations for you to visit the grandkids. We are at war!

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  40. Douglas Keachie Avatar
    Douglas Keachie

    Every gallon of gas you put in your tank for any reason gives the Islamic Empire another reason to rejoice. It is un-American to refuse to carpool and ride bikes. And those happy people in the Constitution Day parade? Shame on them! The Constitution is SERIOUS BUSINESS, not some cockeyed, “let’s try this” experiment in self governing. You are allowed to pursue happiness, but you are not allowed to catch it, according to some who post here.

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  41. Douglas Keachie Avatar
    Douglas Keachie

    Paul, Walt Kelly defined “us” ever so well in the classic Pogo strip.

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  42. Paul Emery Avatar
    Paul Emery

    George
    Heavy are the burdens of the hegemon. Your position displays that by showing such concern over a little peace gathering in Penn Valley. I would welcome a discussion of the morality of America holding that position.

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  43. George Rebane Avatar

    PaulE, my concern is not the isolated Penn Valley gathering, but what that may indicate re other ‘Penn Valleys’ across the land. (I try to understand sampling and sample sizes.) As ToddJ points out, the good hearted young people demonstrating for peace and against our Vietnam involvement, according to Giap and other Vietnamese writing of the war, was the prime reason for NV’s fortitude. They told us that this gave them proof that the US would fold its hand from internal pressure instead of playing it out in the field. All they had to do was hold on; and the rest is history. Unity indeed.
    Morality of America as hegemon is worth discussing. Let me put some thoughts together. Good suggestion.

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  44. Paul Emery Avatar
    Paul Emery

    Thanks George for the respectful conversation. I look forward to that topic.
    Now that Viet Nam has entered the conversation it brings to mind that the war was a lie from the beginning with the orchestrated phony Bay of Tonkin incident. The war was wrong therefore the protesters were right and should be commemorated not accused of aiding the enemy. The real enemy were the liars that got us in a war that took 50,000 American lives.
    Recently we were discussing Machiavelli and whether it was ok for the government to lie to the American people and it was concluded that it was not. Also the lies that got us into Iraq. I know you and others will say that Iraq’s having WMD’s was a common belief but evidence since has shown that many were very skeptical and that attempts to bring up contrary information was stopped. By your admission and my agreement the war was fought for control of strategic resources so it’s obvious that WMD’s even if true were an excuse for the war not the real reason. With that in mind dissenters and protesters should be held in high esteem as messengers of the truth.

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  45. RL Crabb Avatar

    Yes, and what were we traitors demonstrating against back in the sixties? How about a lying government in Washington and a totally corrupt government in Saigon? In our own war of independence we had Washingtons and Jeffersons and Franklins. The French were a big help, but it was really up to us. All the French got for their involvement was bankrupty and a revolution.

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  46. George Rebane Avatar

    PaulE and BobRL – Please, we are again confusing topics in these conversations. No one has accused the Vietnam protesters of being wrong, let alone being traitors. But they do stand correctly accused of aiding the enemy North Vietnam. We are sophisticated enough to understand that a citizen can provide aid and comfort to the enemy without being a legal “traitor” – I thought we had already established that.

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  47. Ben Emery Avatar

    Thanks RL.
    Lies that lead a nation into invasions/ occupations of sovereign nations generally produces the same results, an insurgent citizenry that will fight until the occupiers are gone or they are killed.
    George,
    “We are sophisticated enough to understand that a citizen can provide aid and comfort to the enemy without being a legal “traitor”
    Have you ever been on the opposite side of that coin and if yes my guess you didn’t take it all that well. Its like saying the group you participate in hates America but not you since I am talking with you at the moment. Come on.

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  48. Todd Juvinall Avatar
    Todd Juvinall

    Since we now know the WMD’s were not there but everyone, including Saddam said they were, let us use PaulE’s train of thought for other topics. Since we now know that McCarthy was proven correct according to KGB documents released after the commies were booted, I would expect a full and detailed apology from PaulE and BenE and all their ilk to exonerate McCarthy. Of course they won’t but they expect us all to jump on board their ship about Bush, the French and British of WMD fame.
    That is why the left has no credibility, they try to rewrite history all the time. Vietnam was fought because we had SEATO treaties (among others) and we were being tested by the Chicoms and the USSR to see if we would actually live up to those treaties. They used surrogates to fight us as they did in Korea and Angola (Cubans) if my memory is still ok. Anyway LBJ was a democrat and he was simply pushing liberal fiction as do most democrats and the result was a lot of mayhem. It took Nixon and Ford to get us out and guess which party they are from. PaulE should kiss their ring.

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  49. Greg Goodknight Avatar
    Greg Goodknight

    And how does the malfeasance of the Nixon Administration enter in to justify the local Peace Center choosing to divide the community on a day that should have been one of unity?
    I recall Utah Phillips on the stage at Miners Foundry (which my father-in-law almost bought in the mid-60’s) at a Peace Center event trying to claim the warmongers were motivated by hate of the Iraqi people; it’s that sort of misunderstanding that separation fosters. I expect Utah knew better but also knew what worked when rousing his kind of rabble.

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  50. Greg Goodknight Avatar
    Greg Goodknight

    “Recently we were discussing Machiavelli and whether it was ok for the government to lie to the American people and it was concluded that it was not.”
    Not really; iirc we concluded that, contrary to your claims, Machiavelli never concluded it was OK to lie to one’s own people. In fact, I think old Niccolo never got into the ethics of the use of power, only the dynamics. The ethics were for the Prince and God to sort out.
    And regarding “Bush lied, people died”, what Bush said in his state of the union address was that British Intelligence said they believed Iraq was seeking yellowcake uranium in Niger. In fact, the Brits still say that, and a bipartisan U.S. congressional panel investigating after the fact agreed. Bush didn’t lie.
    Long after the fact, Vladimir Putin let fly with public statements that on two separate occasions, he personally informed Bush of Russian intelligence gathering of comments by Iraqis to the effect they were planning on sponsoring terror attacks within our borders. Imagine what would have happened had that happened on Bush’s watch, after being tipped by Putin.
    In fact, a lie is a pretty high (or low) standard. You have to be saying one thing while knowing it wasn’t true, and I saw little evidence of that by the Bushies. Certainly less than in the Clinton administration and possibly less than in the Obama administration. Believing in something and making a statement that was later found to not be true makes it an error, not a lie.

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