Rebane's Ruminations
July 2017
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George Rebane

Union columnist Terry McLaughlin writes an excellent expose of nationalized healthcare in the newspaper’s 6jul17 edition – ‘Government run healthcare wouldn’t be cheaper; more efficient’.  In there she includes a detailed report from New Zealand, one of the countries often cited by socialists of how a healthcare system should work.  As you might expect, the revelation isn’t a pretty picture, but it is one of which RR readers are very familiar.

SinglePayerHealthcareThe bottom line of all this push toward a (horribly misnamed) “single payer system” (SSS) is that, for all the reasons known to thinking people everywhere, no country has a laudable and/or sustainable government run healthcare system.  All of them are ragged bureaucracies, delivering already bad services for a very high price.  And all of them are looking for ways to deliver even less at a higher cost in ways that are difficult to discover while you’re healthy, and that immediately obvious but too late to fix once you become a victim (aka ‘patient’).

I recommend Ms McLaughlin’s review of why we should do everything possible to avoid a SSS, and at the same time open up the delivery of healthcare products and services to the widest array of competent suppliers.  To argue that our pre-Ocare system already did that demonstrates a gross ignorance of our national economy, existing healthcare systems, and current affairs.

Finally, let’s dwell for a moment on the almost hysterical push for SSS we hear in the lamestream and in the exhortations of leftwing politicians, to remind us again of the seminal differences between people devoted to all things collectivist, and those who promote freedom, entrepreneurship, and market-driven solutions.

When in a social setting, peel back the daisy talking veneer of a collectivist, and you are instantly flooded with a monologue detailing the evils of selfish individualism and greedy capitalism, the remedies for which are government, and yet more government.  By definition, the collectivist sees a fulfilled human as one drawing all things good from being a compliant member of a politically legitimized collective.  By himself, the individual is nothing but a suffering derelict cast adrift on a sea of socially destructive competition that worships raw merit which inevitably gives rise to inequality and injustice.  It is the establishment, expansion, and submission to a comprehensive collective which gives rise to a society that provides succor to all of our ‘legitimate needs’ through a correct redistribution from those who can and must, to those who can’t or won’t – “From each according to his ability, to each …” (Marx, et al).  Examples of such collectives still abound.  

[update]  For those true believers in government healthcare, we draw examples of ‘healthcare from hell’ right here in the good ol’ USofA.  Everyone by now has heard, save perhaps the devotees of the lamestream media, of what the Veterans’ Administration has done in caring for the health of our veterans.  To this we can add the atrocity that is the system of, yes, federal hospitals charged with providing healthcare to Native Americans (pc for American Indians).  To get a snootful of what we can expect from SSS, and others around the world are already getting, you can read ‘‘People Are Dying Here’: Federal Hospitals Are Failing Native Americans’ in which we find that – In some of the nation’s poorest places, the government health service charged with treating Native Americans failed to meet minimum U.S. standards for medical facilities, turned away gravely ill patients and caused unnecessary deaths, according to federal regulators, agency documents and interviews. … The IHS, a unit of the Department of Health and Human Services, operates a network of hospitals and clinics, much like the Veterans Health Administration. Under U.S. treaties that date back generations, the service is legally responsible for providing medical care to about 2.2 million tribal members.

[8jul17 update]  I couldn’t figure out where to post the tragic story of little Charlie Gard – the lamestream had no problem with just judiciously ignoring it – whether it is an example of hellish healthcare or of yellow (aka progressive) journalism.  Charlie suffers from a rare genetic disorder that gives him a very small chance of surviving, and that small chance is being reduced to zero by the National Healthcare System of the British government whose death panel has ruled that the state 1) will not let Charlie’s parents, at no cost to the UK government, take Charlie to the US for treatment, 2) deemed Charlie’s case too expensive to treat under their NHS ‘single payer’ system (which is financially on its ass), and 3) have taken Charlie away from his parents and made him a ward of the state whose life will be officially terminated (they will ‘pull the plug’) so that “he can die with dignity” and fulfill his state determined “duty to die”.  UK’s socialist controllers cannot afford the precedent of returning the decision for an ailing person’s fate to his family.  Our progressives are purposely blind to these goings on, but the rest of us should pay close attention to how this plays out so that we can correctly evaluate the Left’s Single Payer Über Alles that is coming down the pike. (more here)  For a wider and deeper understanding of what’s in store for us, explore the widespread advent of state promoted ‘duty to die’ euthanasia across Europe.  I suppose ordering your premature death is probably the most direct way for governments to reduce the extent and cost of services of their socialized healthcare systems.

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278 responses to “Healthcare from Hell (updated 8jul17)”

  1. Scott Obermuller Avatar

    George, you’re falling into a sucker’s trap. The left only uses the ‘everyone’s gonna DIE!’ BS because they haven’t got any facts or reason. Of course we can point out cases of actual deaths due to govt run health care, but the left doesn’t really care about people dying. Haven’t you noticed they never bring up these cases of real people that really do die due to govt incompetence and greed? Because they really don’t care.
    Just look at what Paul (senior advocate of govt health care) writes here about why he wants to get rid of private insurance. ‘Bloated executives’ will be done away with. They’re probably all male and Euro descent. I tried to ask him once about how much that will save the insured and he had no clue. He knows govt is far more wasteful but money will be directed toward govt workers who (total coincidence) will be handing more money to leftist unions and away from white males that will be (in his mind) handing it to ultra-conservative groups. Insurance companies are really investment companies. If you do away with health insurance companies, a huge amount of capital will be taken from being invested in profitable companies and sent to the bottomless pit of waste called the govt.
    Evidence of other countries that haven’t been able to run sustainable health care is of no consequence to fans of socialized medicine. They will simply claim it wasn’t done correctly.
    The real need is to find ways to vastly lower the cost of health care. We’ve done that in so many other areas. It can be done in the USA.

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  2. Don Bessee Avatar
    Don Bessee

    Since Trump took office his administration has been doing some housecleaning at the VA (before the bill that was recently signed to ease disciplining fed employees).
    526 terminations
    94 suspensions longer than 2 weeks
    27 demotions.
    Under 0 – 0
    😉

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  3. Scott Obermuller Avatar

    You mean no more parties in Vegas on the public dime? However can we have decent single payer health care with Trump’s attitude?

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  4. Steve Frisch Avatar
    Steve Frisch

    And yet, Australia, Canada, France, Germany, Italy, Japan, Norway, Sweden and the United Kingdom all have universal single payer health care, provide it at roughly have the cost per capita and as a percentage of GDP than the US does its market based system, and all have a longer life span, lower infant mortality, a lower rate of preventable deaths per 100,000 people, consistently earlier intervention on chronic disease and consistently poll about 50% higher on satisfaction with their health care.
    They just must be much more efficient over there than we are here 🙂

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  5. Steve Frisch Avatar
    Steve Frisch

    “half”

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  6. Walt Avatar

    No Steve, it’s not all that great.
    I have plenty of kin I keep in touch with in Sweden. They say it sucks.
    I will take their word over yours any day.

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  7. George Rebane Avatar

    SteveF 907pm – Indeed they must be, but there’s a lot more to their health care than meets the eye as presented by the lamestream. We have known several German families for over fifty years. As they and we were young/er, they thought their healthcare was marvelous. Now that they are older (our age) and have the onset of age related maladies, they wished they had something else beside what the government offers, something that was responsive to their medical needs. And comparing the stats of their demographics and culture to ours is a real apples and oranges bamboozle.

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  8. Steve Frisch Avatar
    Steve Frisch

    Silly me, I am depending on the anecdotal data collected by the Global Health Observatory in their annual peer reviewed statistical report and the World Health Report.
    I am sure that if we compared a number of other demographic and cultural factors that we would find 1) all of these countries have healthier diets but pay more for their food, 2) all of these countries have lower rates of prescription and over the counter drug use, 3) all of these countries have longer times of paid family leave for illness and elder care, 4) all of these countries have preventative care programs.
    I think I will stick with the statistics.

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  9. Steve Frisch Avatar
    Steve Frisch

    Posted by: Walt | 07 July 2017 at 09:15 PM
    I love that ‘trust your kin’ comment. Do you seriously think I posted that without a pretty solid source?

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  10. Don Bessee Avatar
    Don Bessee

    Ya sure bro we want just what the Italians have, jolly joker you are. We have states bigger than those populations. How is the VA working, oh I forgot you are not a vet. Go ask them, well other than the ones who died waiting. Did you hear about the parents in the UK who can not spend their own money on their sick baby if they wanted to? O care put us in that situation where we could not pay a provider directly to get the services from who we wanted and could pay for.
    You can keep your insurance and keep your doctor if you like them is the biggest lie since the check is in the mail. 😉

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  11. Scott Obermuller Avatar

    “and all have a longer life span, lower infant mortality, a lower rate of preventable deaths per 100,000 people,…”
    Very little of that has anything to do with their health care system.
    Do those countries have to put up with the number of people that don’t care about pre-natal care, or have to deal with Democrat-run cities that are shooting galleries?
    And of course, a poll on how happy they are about a health care system that they can’t do anything about – don’t know about anything different and wouldn’t know what else is available.
    Total fail, Steve.
    Why do those ‘happy’ folk go to other countries to seek health care?
    Why do Canadians come to America for health care but no Americans go to Canada for the same?
    From Steve – crickets.

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  12. Gregory Avatar
    Gregory

    The WHO report that ranked the USA behind Cuba used as it’s #1 criteria … how it’s paid for. A built in bias for single payer. It was, in essence, using France as the ideal, but then that WHO report was authored in France.
    And another issue with Frisch’s statistics… there are subgroups in the USA with a number of bad habits and poor diets. Compare white Americans to white Europeans for an apples to apples report.
    Prenatal care was a hot topic, and the lack of good prenatal coverage was blamed for poor infant mortality stats in the black community… until it was found that latinas had even less prenatal care than black women, on average, but good outcomes approximating that of whites with more dollars for healthcare. Apparently beans and corn are better for you than most soul foods.
    Don B 935. I don’t know if those were the biggest lies or that the average family would save $2500 a year. Madness.

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  13. Scott Obermuller Avatar

    I remember my cousin introducing his German family to our American relatives. His sister was dating an orthopedic surgeon. When the German father in law described his injury to his knee that caused him to limp badly, the surgeon inquired what had been done after the injury.
    Bottom line – the wondrous German ‘free’ health care system had done nothing and cast him aside as a cripple and forced him into an early retirement on a pittance of his previous pay. It seems the American health care system would have easily fixed the injury. Oh, I know – just another single story that surely can’t be indicative of a health care system that is way better. My cousin’s father in law would not even begin to hear of the surgeon’s offer to have the injury looked after in America. Gratis.
    It would bring shame to the fatherland. Better to claim he had better health care and be a cripple than to have his injury fixed by a bunch of capitalistic leeches.
    Question again to Steve – how many in America go to socialistic countries for free health care vs how many from those same countries come here for life saving care?
    From Steve – crickets.

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  14. Scott Obermuller Avatar

    Greg – my out-of-pocket went way up. Kinda scratching my head about idiots like Steve that still believe they are going to save 2.5K a year.
    Maybe Steve can point out where the 2500 went to since he thinks he’s so smart.

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  15. Bill Tozer Avatar
    Bill Tozer

    This topic has never tickled my fancy, nor has ever interested me, to be blunt. Just me, not the topic that many care and worry and fret about. With the disclaimer out of the way, I would simply point to what “single payer” means to me.
    1) http://www.re-member.org/pine-ridge-reservation.aspx
    The Federal Government via court rulings is responsible for education and health care on the Rez.
    2) http://www.judicialwatch.org/press-room/press-releases/judicial-watch-files-second-lawsuit-veterans-affairs-information-non-veteran-use-massive-west-los-angeles-va-facility/?utm_source=facebook.com&utm_medium=ads&utm_campaign=promoted+content
    That is some single payer.
    3). Medicaid for all. Free physical once a year! Oh goodie goodie gumdrops.

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  16. ScenesFromTheApocalypse Avatar
    ScenesFromTheApocalypse

    “This topic has never tickled my fancy, nor has ever interested me, to be blunt.”
    I actually rather like it, but without details I’m pretty quick to lose interest myself. For a responsible person, it tends to be their largest fear as they age until they get dumped on the heavily subsidized public plan at age 65. Crank up 65+ Medicare premiums so that they actually cover the cost not previously paid for by pre-65 payments and the retired would be a lot less sanguine on the topic I imagine.
    . The various sectors (pharma companies, hospitals, specialists, GP’s, existing public insurers like Medicaid and ‘care, etc.) are always conflated into ‘healthcare’. Splitting them up might bring more nuanced arguments.
    . All the countries listed by Mr. Frisch (who actually takes on the Thunderdome rather than dive bombing ‘polls’, so kudos to him) have different systems, but they are treated as being the same.
    . I expect that most of those places have private insurers too. That’s the thing that would allow people with some money to buy into a system created for the hoi polloi.
    . The US system is hardly a free market, and is so filled with market distortions that I’m never sure why it’s ‘free’ vs. the ‘socialized’ versions elsewhere.
    . It wouldn’t surprise me if every country mentioned (including the US) is headed for a cliff of medical expenses. It’s rather hard to pass 100% of GDP for a single sector of the economy, but people are always willing to spend an infinite amount of OPM to live longer or at least out of extreme physical discomfort.
    It’ll be interesting to see if the US ever sets up a workable national system. One thing it lacks that the other countries didn’t when they set up their plans is a monoculture. It’s easier to care about your neighbors and feel some sort of civic interest in that case. Singapore might be the only exception I think.

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  17. Steve Frisch Avatar
    Steve Frisch

    Posted by: Don Bessee | 07 July 2017 at 09:35 PM
    You might note Don that Italy was not on that list.
    Germany 81.5 million people
    Japan 127 million people
    France 66 million people
    UK 65 million people
    Largest US State California 40 million people

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  18. ScenesFromTheApocalypse Avatar
    ScenesFromTheApocalypse

    re: Gregory@10:08PM.
    Given the ability to put the families of humanity on a curve (for pretty much any behavior or ability), with fairly guessable results on the tails of the curve, I wonder how long until you see an uproar when using artificial intelligence for making public policy, security/policing issues, etc.
    I keep expecting the Newsweek article on ‘AIs are Racist!’.

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  19. Steve Frisch Avatar
    Steve Frisch

    Posted by: Scott Obermuller | 07 July 2017 at 10:17 PM
    “and all have a longer life span, lower infant mortality, a lower rate of preventable deaths per 100,000 people,…”
    “Very little of that has anything to do with their health care system.”
    To say that longer life spans, lower infant mortality and lower rates of preventable death have very little to do with the health care system is so laughable and illogical that it defies response. It is though people in America have adopted complete ignorance as a rationale for their pre existing ideological conditions.
    I really can’t help it if one of the causes of a higher preventable death rate in the United States is the proliferation of guns and the higher number of gun deaths….although I might add that almost 5 times more people died lat year from drug overdoses than they did guns. Perhaps if we didn’t;t prescribe so may opioid drugs we wouldn’t have that problem.
    Finally, I love the ‘why do they go other places for health care’ meme. According to a recent study by VISA the United States has BY FAR the highest level of ‘health care tourists’ or people leaving their home country for medical care; there are 11 million people per year globally who travel for medical care and 1.4 million of them are US Citizens.
    Facts are stubborn things.

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  20. Steve Frisch Avatar
    Steve Frisch

    “From Steve – crickets.”
    Hey Scott, you really can’t claim crickets when you post at 10 pm and someone replies at 5:30 am. With all due respect I work hard every day so I am usually in bed either reading or asleep by 10 pm

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  21. Steve Frisch Avatar
    Steve Frisch

    Posted by: Gregory | 07 July 2017 at 10:08 PM
    “And another issue with Frisch’s statistics… there are subgroups in the USA with a number of bad habits and poor diets. Compare white Americans to white Europeans for an apples to apples report.”
    I am not even quite sure what to do with this hilarious comment. I’m not sure what you are trying to say Greg? Are you suggesting that Latino, Asian and African Americans have less healthy life styles than white Americans? That some of the countries I listed have better health outcomes because they are less diverse in their racial ethnic makeup?
    The widely cited WHO study on Cuba v US was studying the cost effectiveness of health care not outcomes…and I DID NOT cite the Cuba WHO study because that was not the comparison I was making, I was making a comparison of cost and outcomes.
    The bottom line is the countries I listed with universal single payer live longer healthier lives while spending half as much per capita and as a percentage of their GDP on health care. Is the solutions perhaps a combination of health care, preventive measures, quality diet, and lifestyle choices…yes I think i implied that.

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  22. ScenesFromTheApocalypse Avatar
    ScenesFromTheApocalypse

    “To say that longer life spans, lower infant mortality and lower rates of preventable death have very little to do with the health care system is so laughable and illogical that it defies response.”
    I’m not so sure that it’s a bad question. When dealing strictly with averages, I’d say that (by far) the major improvements in those three issues came from the proper design of city water and sewer systems that occurred around a century ago. (I’d say you mean life ‘expectancy’ not ‘span’, the latter hasn’t changed all that much).
    Throw in low hanging fruit like antibiotics and better hospital sanitation, and you’re most of the way there.
    Now that the cohort born in an earlier era of health science is dying off, it wouldn’t surprise me to see any increases in expectancy to be hard-won from here on. I’ll bet you could get rid of quite a lot of the US health system and see scarcely any difference in life expectancy.

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  23. Steve Frisch Avatar
    Steve Frisch

    Posted by: ScenesFromTheApocalypse | 08 July 2017 at 05:33 AM
    “I expect that most of those places have private insurers too. That’s the thing that would allow people with some money to buy into a system created for the hoi polloi.”
    Scenes, just to be clear, I have never stated that a universal single payer system should or would mean an end to private supplemental health insurance…in fact I support the use of private insurance as a supplement to a single payer system.
    However if you look at the statistics, lets’s take France for example, the supplemental insurance market makes a very small portion of health care payments, really mainly for services that are supplemental to the health care treatment itself, and covering the co-pays, which are designed specifically to go down as the severity of illness goes up. The more chronic or expensive the illness the less someone pays as a co-pay.

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  24. Steve Frisch Avatar
    Steve Frisch

    But once again…..damn me for using actual studies, statistics and data when we could make decisions based on feelings, anecdotal stories from our kin, long held beliefs never seriously questioned that comport with our ideological identity.
    “….no country has a laudable and/or sustainable government run healthcare system. All of them are ragged bureaucracies, delivering already bad services for a very high price.”
    I mean really George, if you are going to state that shouldn’t you post some actual data to support it?

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  25. ScenesFromTheApocalypse Avatar
    ScenesFromTheApocalypse

    SteveF: “According to a recent study by VISA the United States has BY FAR the highest level of ‘health care tourists’ or people leaving their home country for medical care; there are 11 million people per year globally who travel for medical care and 1.4 million of them are US Citizens.”
    I strongly suspect that most of that medical tourism is not to first world countries.
    ScottO: “Why do Canadians come to America for health care but no Americans go to Canada for the same?”
    I’m willing to accept the notion that US healthcare is the best in the world (and probably part of the reason that we pay more, it’s not just the underlying payment system driving prices down in other places) but is also more unevenly distributed and has a higher opportunity for pauperizing the recipient.

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  26. Steve Frisch Avatar
    Steve Frisch

    Posted by: ScenesFromTheApocalypse | 08 July 2017 at 06:15 AM
    I do think that you are making a good point that our built environment has something to do with what you correctly note is life expectancy. Although things like air and water quality compare favorably between many of the countries I notes and the United States on thing that does not is pedestrian mobility. The built environment and the number of miles one walks versus drives directly correlates to rates of obesity, heart disease, respiratory diseases, diabetes and stroke.
    Good point.

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  27. Steve Frisch Avatar
    Steve Frisch

    “I strongly suspect that most of that medical tourism is not to first world countries”
    Actually that is precisely my point Scenes, Americans going to Costa Rica or India for a knee replacement or hernia treatment or reconstructive dental surgery for example can often get the surgery and the trip paid for for less than the COPAY in the US.
    If we are so damn great, and efficient, and preferable why can Americans get better treatment at a lower cost in Costa Rica? I think that kind of counters the argument that we are the most efficient system.
    But even more important, if it is indeed true that fully 10% of the worlds ‘medical tourists’ are Americans it demonstrates that the meme oft repeated here that everyone travels o the US for treatment is not necessarily true.
    Yeah, I probably would not go to Thailand for an organ transplant but there are going to be a total of 30,000 organ transplants and 600,000 joint replacements a year in the US. One would think that if we are doing joint replacements at a 2% rate we could make it efficient.

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  28. Steve Frisch Avatar
    Steve Frisch

    According to statistics 52,000 Canadians traveled outside of Canada for medical treatment in 2014 or 1.1% of their citizens and 1.4 million Americans traveled outside of the US for medical treatment or .04% of our population. The reason appears to be wait times in Canada for elective surgery not critical care. The vast majority of Canadians traveling overseas were for elective surgery.

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  29. Steve Frisch Avatar
    Steve Frisch

    “…delivering already bad services for a very high price.” –George
    Every one of the nations I listed above deliver medical services at a lower price and with higher quality than the US. The US is actually ranked 11th world wide for quality of their health care services.

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  30. Steve Frisch Avatar
    Steve Frisch

    “The US is actually ranked 11th world wide for quality of their health care services.”
    I need to make a correct due to misreading a National Post article….the US actually ranks 37th in overall outcomes globally and ranks 1st for cost.
    My apologies.

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  31. Scott Obermuller Avatar

    “Hey Scott, you really can’t claim crickets when you post at 10 pm and someone replies at 5:30 am.”
    I can claim crickets when you don’t respond at all.
    Still waiting…
    “To say that longer life spans, lower infant mortality and lower rates of preventable death have very little to do with the health care system is so laughable and illogical that it defies response.”
    Well, I could claim the same about your ignorance.
    But I can respond.
    The best health care in the world available to the wealthiest people has been proven to be totally ineffective against poor personal life style choices. Oh sure, their money may have prolonged their lives a bit, but in the end, if you don’t care about your health and even worse, don’t even avail yourself of the care available, you won’t last long.
    Steve is ignorant of how many women show up at hospitals in the US to have their babies just after arriving from other countries. The lack of education of pre-natal care by the mother is sadly fatal for a lot of babies.
    Those stats on infant mortality and longevity have to be corrected for levels of education, concern by the parents for proper life styles of pregnant mothers, eating habits, the amount of effort made by individuals to seek out health care and so on.
    Poor people are poor in this country largely due to their own lack of initiative and poor decision making. It would follow that these attitudes will play a huge role in poor health outcomes in their lives.
    The poor in this country already have access to better (and free) health care than many other developed nations. But all too many (sadly)just don’t make the effort.
    You can lead a horse to water…

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  32. ScenesFromTheApocalypse Avatar
    ScenesFromTheApocalypse

    “If we are so damn great, and efficient, and preferable why can Americans get better treatment at a lower cost in Costa Rica?”
    Because they pay doctors and other health care professionals very little.
    That does appear to be part of the solution. A nurse in France makes about 58% of one in the US, Brazil (as close as I can find to Costa Rica in the source I’m looking at) about 20%. You simply pay people less.
    It’s always going to be one of the problems you hit in instituting any of the European systems in the US. Either making everyone a .gov employee or using a single payer to dictate prices is going to drastically lower wages for medical professionals. I can just imagine the outrage when US doctors are asked to take a 50% haircut.

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  33. ScenesFromTheApocalypse Avatar
    ScenesFromTheApocalypse

    …not to be coy about a data source. I’m assuming that the percentage differences are unchanged from a decade ago.
    http://www.worldsalaries.org/professionalnurse.shtml

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  34. ScenesFromTheApocalypse Avatar
    ScenesFromTheApocalypse

    ScottO: “The best health care in the world available to the wealthiest people has been proven to be totally ineffective against poor personal life style choices.”
    I think that’s a fair thing to point out.
    It would be interesting to see health outcomes for, let’s say, German-Americans vs. Germans. My guess is that it’s not dissimilar to firearms murder rates, etc. in terms of drawing up the difference significantly.

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  35. Steve Frisch Avatar
    Steve Frisch

    Yeah Scott the answer to your question about how children are born to unauthorized immigrants in the United States is about 295,000 per year, or 8% of births, larger than the 4% of the population made up of unauthorized immigrants, according to PEW research. That number is actually HIGHER in France, Germany and the United Kingdom.
    I find it ironic that the answer to the question is anchor babies….Americas health acre system sucks because of…well anchor babies. What a crock of shit It is almost statistically insignificant compared to the other countries I mentioned with better health care outcomes.
    Is the case you are going to make now that anchor babies from Mexico have worse prenatal care than anchor babies from Syria?

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  36. ScenesFromTheApocalypse Avatar
    ScenesFromTheApocalypse

    re: SF@7:53
    I can’t say that it’s insignificant.
    I spent a couple of minutes looking for numbers that look bonafide, rather than some kind of Dailykos/Infowars kind of deal.
    In Arizona (from a UA study), uncompensated hospital costs a decade ago for one year ran $270M for native born and $143M for illegals (naturalized citizens barely showed up). I imagine that this number has increased since then.

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  37. Steve Frisch Avatar
    Steve Frisch

    I am sorry Scenes, is your case that the US and Costa Rica have roughly the same health outcomes yet medical professionals are paid half as much in Costa Rica?
    Besides the point that having been to Costa Rica I can state unequivocally that the cost of living is roughly half as much as in the US, which is why it is such a popular expatriate destination, the seems like an argument that we pay roughly twice as much for the same outcome.
    Is your case that American per capita and GDP health care costs compared to Costa Rica should be adjusted?
    Great, then adjust the US system versus France, Germany and the UK, where the cost of living is roughly the same and THEY pay half as much.

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  38. Steve Frisch Avatar
    Steve Frisch

    Posted by: ScenesFromTheApocalypse | 08 July 2017 at 08:00 AM
    I don’t think using Arizona as a proxy for national statistics is valid.

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  39. ScenesFromTheApocalypse Avatar
    ScenesFromTheApocalypse

    I am sorry Scenes, is your case that the US and Costa Rica have roughly the same health outcomes yet medical professionals are paid half as much in Costa Rica?
    I’m guess that Costa Rican healthcare professionals make 20% as much as those in the US.
    It’s France that pays half as much (roughly).

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  40. ScenesFromTheApocalypse Avatar
    ScenesFromTheApocalypse

    I’m not judging Pew, I’m just leery of quoting any news site since the messenger always becomes the issue…although you should check out the history of it sometime. It’s the canonical example of how, no matter how hard you try, a trust can be taken over by it’s employees. The Sun Oil founders had considerably different politics than their charity does now.
    It’s hard to avoid the conclusion that illegal aliens add a big tab to healthcare in this country. Arizona (like California) is a fine proxy since that is the front line and service as a form of miner’s canary. I frankly don’t see how you can have any kind of sizable public benefits and not enforce your borders, it’s simply a matter of common sense.

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  41. ScenesFromTheApocalypse Avatar
    ScenesFromTheApocalypse

    “Is your case that American per capita and GDP health care costs compared to Costa Rica should be adjusted?”
    I’m more making the point that health tourism is based not so much on good outcomes, the best in practically any country is pretty good, but that you are simply taking advantage of low wages in other countries. I can’t say that cost of living is particularly low in the Third World if you look at the prices for refrigerators or cars. Humans are cheap, as are goods with super high labor content.
    Maybe that is the answer. After outsourcing all manufacturing, followed by easily exportable ‘knowledge’ jobs, we can start being airlifted to doctors and hospitals in India. The remaining US economy can be based on coffee shops, plumbers, and bureaucrats.

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  42. Steve Frisch Avatar
    Steve Frisch

    Does everything discussed here always eventually circle back to guns, immigrants or climate change?

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  43. fish Avatar
    fish

    Yeah…..single payer is going to be awesome……

    “One million patients a week cannot get a GP appointment, statistics show”

    https://twitter.com/telegraph/status/883200154735718402

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  44. Todd Juvinall Avatar
    Todd Juvinall

    Yeah that single payer is so awesome. After the government takes all the rest of our hardworking citizen’s money, we can rest easy. No worries, but forget the vacation to Cabo.

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  45. fish Avatar
    fish

    Posted by: Steve Frisch | 08 July 2017 at 08:23 AM
    Does everything discussed here always eventually circle back to guns, immigrants or climate change?

    A comment so pithy it should be repeated at other sites!
    Oh and Islam….never forget Islam!

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  46. Gregory Avatar
    Gregory

    Frisch 734
    “I need to make a correct due to misreading a National Post article….the US actually ranks 37th in overall outcomes globally and ranks 1st for cost.”
    Steve, that’s the WHO report from a few years ago (no?) that ranks health care not by outcomes but a complicated mix of determinations, and the most heavily weighted was whether it was socialized or not. Read the fine print. It sounds like you’ve been listening too much to “Dr. Bill” Honigman, a SoCal regressive democrat who is a pied piper for single payer.
    Frisch 610
    I was thinking more of education, teen pregnancies and shooting each other in gang disputes. The reasons why, in general, black male in DC life expectancy is about 66 years while Asian female life expectancy in Massachusetts is closer to 92 years, and that’s not because of socialized health care. It’s a careful choice of one’s gender, parents, and life’s path.

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  47. Steve Frisch Avatar
    Steve Frisch

    Posted by: Todd Juvinall | 08 July 2017 at 09:13 AM
    I am sorry, I am still trying to figure out how you can possibly rationalize US citizens paying twice as much for a marginally worse outcome just because the payments get funneled through the top 10 health insurance companies in the US who control about 95% of the market?
    What functional difference does it make who is the intermediary, the government of a private health insurance company.
    Let’s be clear this price differentia existed long before Obama Care, it has been true for more than 30 years.
    If the money went to the government as an intermediary and the cost went down by 50% would that help or hurt the hardworking citizens you claim to be stating up for?

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  48. Steve Frisch Avatar
    Steve Frisch

    Greg the WHO study (and yes it was a few years ago) ranks health care by
    Health (50%) : disability-adjusted life expectancy
    Overall or average : 15%
    Distribution or equality : 35%
    Responsiveness (25%) : speed of service, protection of privacy, and quality of amenities
    Overall or average : 12.5%
    Distribution or equality : 12.5%
    Fair financial contribution : 25%
    The definition of fair financial contribution did not include the source of the contribution (private or tax).
    The same results have been replicated since the initial WHO study by subsequent World Health reports although not aggregated into a singe world health report, by Bloomberg, the Commonwealth Fund, and numerous other academic researchers who do not take source of payment into account.

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  49. Todd Juvinall Avatar
    Todd Juvinall

    Well as a non=prfit CEO I can understand why you have no clue about businesses that are in the private sector. Insurance is formed by people and companies betting their money you won’t get sick and use their accumulated money. You as an individual are betting they will pay when you do. A simple contract. Not a right as the liberals and socialist are trying to make it. And it worked great until the democrats and Obama wrecked it. The real world is there in front of your face and everyone else’s. We said this would happen. But you all want to take over the whole thing and it failed.
    Remove the mandates and let companies offer whatever they want and let people buy whatever they want. One thing about the free market, if something is missing someone will step up to fill the void. We can keep help for the poor of course and Medicare people paid into the system so they are protected.

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