236 responses to “Sandbox – 27jun17”

1. 

   ScenesFromTheApocalypse

   01 July 2017

   Assuming for a moment that a loan to Trump happened after the inauguration (true?), it’s simply a legal business transaction.
   With:
   ‘“No Title of Nobility
   shall be granted by the United States: And no Person holding any Office of Profit or Trust
   under them, shall, without the Consent of the Congress, accept of any present, Emolument,
   Office, or Title, of any kind whatever, from any King, Prince, or foreign State.””
   I simply can’t see the relationship, it’s a huge stretch. You could probably make a stronger argument in a Clinton II presidency when examining Saudi gifts to the foundation.

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2. 

   Gregory

   01 July 2017

   Data maintained by the state for state business, such as the Voter data records being withheld by California, is different than someone’s individual tax returns which, unless your name is Mitt Romney or Donald Trump, is illegal to publish without permission with serious prison time if found guilty. Private information guaranteed privacy under the law is private. Understand?
   And the NTSB (not FAA) investigation that resulted in no finding of pilot fault when my plane’s engine experienced vapor lock on takeoff is on-line. I received nothing else besides a phone call. Find it yourself.
   I expect California and some of the other states are refusing to honor the Fed’s request for Voter Data Roll copies because there is something to hide.

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3. 

   ScenesFromTheApocalypse

   01 July 2017

   re: Privacy in taxes.
   I do agree that they should be private, and whoever leaked candidates’ taxes should be tracked down and punished accordingly, but it makes sense to me that there is an expectation of transparency in candidates. Obviously, a post-inauguration calling for this is basically a fishing expedition, especially in a case where the taxes are bound to be quite complex. There’s always something to make a political point about in a developer’s returns.
   re: Hiding the voters.
   It’s pretty likely that they are hiding this for a reason. A decently designed (and well-funded) study with a large enough sample could likely show this and be done at a local or state level I think. It’s funny to think that any real survey of illegal voting is likely to be viewed as RACIST!!! since it would show mostly Mexican nationals as the primary perps.

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4. 

   Gregory

   01 July 2017

   Scenes, I’ve come to the conclusion that the morphing of tax return releases from a voluntary campaign tactic to a virtual requirement is more of a barrier of entry to elected office to folks who hadn’t been planning a political career for years, with their returns sanitized for the future candidate’s protection over the years.
   I have no need to look at anyone else’s individual tax returns, including Trump, Clinton (any of them) or Kamala Harris, the next first term Senator to be pushed as the Democratic Party savior and presidential candidate in 2020.

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5. 

   fish

   01 July 2017

   Kamala Harris, the next first term Senator to be pushed as the Democratic Party savior and presidential candidate in 2020.
   Like a bad movie sequel……..“Kamala – Revenge of the Empty Suit”

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6. 

   Todd Juvinall

   01 July 2017

   Just fishing for something one dreams up is not enough. I have never supported the voluntary disclosure of any Predident’s returns, left or right. Voter rolls are already a public documnet that anyone can get and use for any purpose except commercial use. So I am confident in my postition that Trump needs not to expose his returns.

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7. 

   Todd Juvinall

   01 July 2017

   My guess is the Trump administration will send out individuals to obtain the rolls from the 3200 or so counties. The tactic of California will fail quickly.

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8. 

   ScenesFromTheApocalypse

   01 July 2017

   re: Gregory@8:34
   You can certainly make that argument. It’s not a thing I feel deeply about and will ponder on.
   What about medical records? Can you expect a candidate for Presidency, especially given the obvious physical rigors of the job, to have a third party physical? I’d never thought about it much given how hard the actual campaigns really are (and they are probably the best job interview there is, given the organization you need to build and how really hard it is on you to actually carry the thing through), but those films of Hillary doing the funky chicken got me to wondering about that.
   re: Todd@ 9:07. I expect that that’s true. The tricky part is carrying through the name to an illegal voting situation (due to alien status, felons, etc.). I’d be satisfied with a really well done study on a properly selected subset.

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9. 

   ScenesFromTheApocalypse

   01 July 2017

   Not selecting a President due to faults in character or physical health strikes me as an interesting problem. Were FDR or JFK up to the job (ignore whether they actually had good policy instincts for a sec)? Both had hidden disabilities.
   Bill Clinton was a full on sexual predator from all accounts while Trump is publicly rude to women. Which is worse? Evidently the second. I’ll argue that Clinton did a surprisingly good job taking the reins of government given that he didn’t bring in a full-blown mafia the size of Bush the First.
   I guess that there’s nothing new under the sun. Most people will tend to link themselves to a public figure or group for basically emotional reasons, quickly followed by a list of justifications. The Reds, Whites, Blues, and Greens had political influence along with their chariots

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10. 

    Todd Juvinall

    01 July 2017

    Regarding medical. I think the 25th Amendment is there for that. I am fairly certain Bill has a STD and never released his records even now. And we never saw Barry O’s school record either. So each candidate releases what they want.
    Relese of records and comparing them is what the DFeds want to do. I listened to the Kansas Registrar who Trump has placed in command discuss the very things. Cross checking the 11-20 million immigrants who have a card is one of them So I expect the left is scared they will be culling a lot of dead people and illegals so they are resisting.

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11. 

    Todd Juvinall

    01 July 2017

    Here is a correction by AP on the Russia issue. Now many of us said they were printing this and it was fake news. And the liberals and the media were citing this “fact” at every turn. But wait! It was fake news. here is the AP retraction. Of course it is always too late.
    “WASHINGTON (AP) — In stories published April 6, June 2, June 26 and June 29, The Associated Press reported that all 17 U.S. intelligence agencies have agreed that Russia tried to influence the 2016 election to benefit Donald Trump. That assessment was based on information collected by three agencies – the FBI, CIA and National Security Agency – and published by the Office of the Director of National Intelligence, which represents all U.S. intelligence agencies. Not all 17 intelligence agencies were involved in reaching the assessment.”

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12. 

    George Rebane

    01 July 2017

    Administrivia – You may wish to continue the voter fraud discussion under ‘Ruminations – 1jul17’ in which this issue is highlighted.
    http://rebaneruminations.typepad.com/rebanes_ruminations/2017/06/ruminations-29jun17.html

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13. 

    Steve Frisch

    01 July 2017

    So once again, being literalists, several you are missing the original point of my comment. I don’t care a whit about Greg’s crash, Todd’s foreclosure or George’s immigration status, I was using that as an example of the types of information that are irrelevant to the discussion.
    [Although I must note that you harbor in your midst at least one who rummages through people’s personal trash with no other intent than to use irrelevant information to attempt to attack, like Trashcan Man in The Stand, and who is the loudest mouth about his cherished privacy.]
    My original point was that Trump’s finances will become public because they are relevant to a criminal investigation, of both obstruction of justice and abuse ofpower,and our privacy is lost when we are being investigated by public bodies and information becomes public through discovery. One Trump’s taxes go to Congress they are no longer private.
    You may disagree that that should be the case, or call it a fishing expedition, like Bill Clinton’s blow job was the result of the investigation into Whitewater, but it is how it works.
    And just to be clear, it may be illegal for a government official to reveal someones taxes, but once they are delivered to the press publishing them is perfectly legal.
    The investigation into Trump’s finances is now independent of whether or not the Emoluments Clause applies.
    But in answer to a comment above, and with the acknowledgment that we have never been here before, here is the definition of an emolument:
    “The simplest definition is that an emolument is compensation for services or from employment or an office. It has also been said to mean “advantage” or “benefit.” The word comes from emolumentum, which is Latin for “profit” or “gain.”
    In short, if Trump profited or gained from a state owned entity of another foreign government, like for example getting loans from Russian state owned banks at a lower interest rate than he could have obtained from another entity, he could easily be found in violation of the Clause and impeached.
    So the investigation into emoluments may not be triggered by his financial interest or whether or not he revealed his taxes, but once they are revealed, he could be subject to the Clause.
    I am wondering Scenes if that is the type of real state practice you were referring to when you said that real estate developers engage in the types of business practices that ‘civilians’ do not engage in?

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14. 

    ScenesFromTheApocalypse

    01 July 2017

    “I am wondering Scenes if that is the type of real state practice you were referring to when you said that real estate developers engage in the types of business practices that ‘civilians’ do not engage in?”
    What I’m more referring to is that real estate in-the-large is always messy from the typical individual’s standpoint. Complex depreciation schemes, write-offs, dealings with sketchy local governments and unions, hardball negotations with landowners. Sometimes ugly, but nothing would get built (or accomplished generally) without the odd crime or morally ambiguous situation.
    Builders are kind of an extreme case. I completely guarantee that you could pick apart Trump’s taxes and find things to be outraged (outraged! I tell you) about. Most of the outrage may be based on a lack of understanding of the justifications of tax law or domain knowledge about that business, but there would be much political fuss and fury erupting.
    Do emoluments apply if the gift was given before the office holder stepped into their job? Not to muddy the water, but the Clinton Foundation was probably the purest play in influence peddling seen in this century, so it’s a bit hard to take all this that seriously.
    Personally, I wish there was more discussion about Trump policies and whether they make sense, but I’m afraid that’s not our future. At this point, it’s a cold civil war in which all available weapons will get picked up, and everyone knows what side they are on.

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15. 

    Steve Frisch

    01 July 2017

    “Do emoluments apply if the gift was given before the office holder stepped into their job?”
    I think the legal question would be does the benefit continue after the person takes office. Since Trump did not divest himself of his holdings if he still holds loans from a foreign entity the answer would likely be yes.

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16. 

    Steve Frisch

    01 July 2017

    BTW, whether or not the same standard could have applied to the Clinton Foundation is kind of irrelevant too. She is not the POTUS he is.

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17. 

    ScenesFromTheApocalypse

    01 July 2017

    re: SF@10:13AM
    I agree with you. The only thing here is the timing of these issues. Obviously, no one really cares about Trump business deals. What they do care about is pushing him out of office, regardless of collateral damage, with whatever tools are available.
    Honestly, that’s business as usual and was true in Pharaoh’s Egypt. By the same token, don’t be mad if Team R brushes off your concerns.

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18. 

    ScenesFromTheApocalypse

    01 July 2017

    As a side note, I suppose that the Clinton Foundation does matter to some extent.
    My strong hunch is that if the Justice Department and a large platoon of accountants were let loose on the prior administration and the Clintons, practically everyone would go to jail even at this point in time.
    But…what good would result?

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19. 

    fish

    01 July 2017

    Posted by: ScenesFromTheApocalypse | 01 July 2017 at 10:29 AM
    But…what good would result?\
    It might dissuade others from similar antics going forward.
    Plus the schadenfreude would be exquisite!

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20. 

    Gregory

    01 July 2017

    “So once again, being literalists, several you are missing the original point of my comment. I don’t care a whit about Greg’s crash, Todd’s foreclosure or George’s immigration status, I was using that as an example of the types of information that are irrelevant to the discussion.”
    Steven, you might not want to read the NTSB report of my accident but I really would like copies of your mug shots taken after your drunk driving arrest, Steve. IIRC those are generally made public… I think a small run of coffee mugs emblazoned with your mug would be a smash hit!
    Any takers?
    You focused on labeling as “literalists” the folks who responded to your idiotic rhetoric with a straight face while ignoring the obvious points made against you… states like California shouldn’t refuse the Pence Commission publicly available public information they provide for a price to entities like the California Democratic Party so they can hit up voters for financial support and use the demographics to plan their campaigns.
    Public information should be public no matter who asks for it, and that includes Pence and his commission.

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21. 

    Todd Juvinall

    01 July 2017

    Trying to use the emolument clause will fail. Even the Founders knew a person in business would have issues that a full time polician would not have. And staying in a Trump Hotel is not the same as the loons on the left think it is.
    And we who have experienced problems that were then put into the public sector can see how those things are used to embarass or pummel others. Frisch had BK’s leins from the local state and feds for not paying the taxes to them he witheld. I had a foreclosure. And others have things that get abused. Hell, I had loons opposing me going door to door in my re-election claiming I was unfit for office as I had two divorces! I shrugged it off and won but it is a eye opener when someone like Pelline goes after “fish” and thers.

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22. 

    Don Bessee

    01 July 2017

    Frish had to stoop to resurrecting the emolument clause! Talk about being bereft of any cogent talking points for lefties. Tough week for fakenews narratives with all the retractions, revelations and secret videos telling way too much truth for the po’ ol’ fakenewsman. 😉
    HAVE A SAFE AND HAPPY HOLIDAY WEEKEND! This is a special 4th of July.

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23. 

    Gregory

    01 July 2017

    Frisch 954
    “My original point was that Trump’s finances will become public because they are relevant to a criminal investigation, of both obstruction of justice and abuse ofpower,and our privacy is lost when we are being investigated by public bodies and information becomes public through discovery”.
    Stevie, I think in the light of revelations from St. DiFi and others who have verified there was no real evidence of Trumpian collusion after a year of looking for it, your first sentence should start more like…
    “My original point was that Trump’s finances will become public because they are relevant to a bogus criminal investigation that keeps fishing for something that indicates an impeachable offense, the last arrow in the quiver held by the Democratic Party that refuses to accept the election results”.
    The election was rigged, just not well enough to ensure Trump’s loss in November. Give up, Steven, and focus on the midterm elections and 2020. Paglia thinks Democrats have already handed 2020 to Trump but I think not.quite.yet.
    While I’d vote for Gary Johnson again, I do think he should heed Libertarian groans and make way for someone else in 2020. He gave it a good try but his lack of solid public speaking and thinking on his feet skills when playing 20 gotcha questions with MSNBC hitmen were his undoing. The folks at Morning Joe weren’t his friends… they were playing cat to Johnson’s mouse.
    http://rare.us/rare-politics/rare-liberty/please-gary-johnson-stay-the-hell-away-from-politics/
    http://reason.com/blog/2017/06/30/libertarians-still-arguing-about-gary-jo

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24. 

    fish

    01 July 2017

    Posted by: Todd Juvinall | 01 July 2017 at 11:02 AM
    I shrugged it off and won but it is a eye opener when someone like Pelline goes after “fish” and (o)thers.
    (I think “others” was your intent here?)
    Lest we forget…..I tracked down the FUE in his lair because he decided that his presence in the Sac Bee…..an already awful newspaper….was going to be an improvement. He was incorrect in this assumption!
    That said, I fired the first salvo! He’s free to fire back at his discretion.

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25. 

    Bill Tozer

    01 July 2017

    Insight: “What makes it so plausible to assume that hypocrisy is the vice of vices is that integrity can indeed exist under the cover of all other vices except this one. Only crime and the criminal, it is true, confront us with the perplexity of radical evil; but only the hypocrite is really rotten to the core.” —Hannah Arendt (1906-1975)

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26. 

    Walt

    01 July 2017

    Not being able to even scuff Trump’s shoes is taking it’s toll on LIBS.
    A little proof of that… But re-elect her. She’s all ya’ got.
    http://www.theamericanmirror.com/video-pelosi-confused-time-day-forgets-latest-russia-accusations-6-mins-later/
    Seems Nan, and “mad” Maxine are drinking from the same tap.

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27. 

    fish

    01 July 2017

    Posted by: Walt | 01 July 2017 at 02:29 PM
    Seems Nan, and “mad” Maxine are drinking from the same tap.
    Nancy is drinking from the well of senility! Max…..well lets just say she is the perfect “representative” for her legislative district.

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28. 

    Walt

    01 July 2017

    If one looks, seeing the straw grasping by the anti Trump nuts, is great entertainment.
    Seen the latest futile brain storms?
    http://www.washingtonexaminer.com/carl-bernstein-calls-for-different-kind-of-reporting-to-take-on-malignant-presidency/article/2627631
    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4655964/Democrats-lay-foundation-remove-Trump-mental-grounds.html
    http://www.breitbart.com/big-government/2017/06/30/fake-news-associated-press-engulfed-in-cnn-level-scandal-as-it-covers-up-invention-of-imaginary-pruitt-meeting/
    What next? Trump is selling the world out to space aliens?

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29. 

    Steve Frisch

    01 July 2017

    Greg, that picture form 1997 or 1998 was probably a pretty good picture of me. I would be proud to have my 20 years younger mug plastered around your coffee tables. Alas I doubt there would be many takers.

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30. 

    Steve Frisch

    01 July 2017

    Don seems to have missed the point that I said I dint think emoluments would be necessary….the Trump will bet taken down by corruption, something those here seem not to care about as along as the corrupt party is “theirs.”

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31. 

    Walt

    01 July 2017

    WE know how our LIBS love CNN. Well Leftys,, get the word CNN might be getting investigated by the FCC? (there are laws against publishing fake news)
    http://www.breitbart.com/big-government/2017/06/30/exclusive-seniors-group-files-fcc-complaint-against-very-fake-news-cnn/
    “The FCC’s rules prohibit holders of broadcast licenses from broadcasting false information concerning a crime or a catastrophe if:
    the licensee knows the information is false; and
    the licensee knows beforehand that broadcasting the information will cause substantial “public harm.” The public harm: (1) must begin immediately and cause direct and actual damage to property or the health or safety of the general public; or (2) divert law enforcement or public health and safety authorities from their duties.”
    Then CNN pulls this.
    http://pagesix.com/2017/06/30/cnn-screws-up-again/?_ga=2.98596382.1615043445.1498866931-2109984932.1498866931
    Tough days ahead LIBS,,, tough days…..

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32. 

    Steve Frisch

    01 July 2017

    And of course none of you are responding to the real issue with numerous states refusing to hand data over to the Pence Commission; 1) many of the states have data that is not made public, 2) sates and local governments run elections so the Feds have no right to the data that is not public, 3) the number of states refusing is now up to 29, many of them republican, 4) the reason the states won’t hand the data over is that they don’t trust the administration to keep it safe, 5) the states have no reason to hand data over to a commission they believe has a pre-determined objective.
    IN any other instance, for example if this were a Democratic President naming a Democratic run Commission, you would all be screaming bloody murder and refusing to comply.

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33. 

    Don Bessee

    01 July 2017

    So back to the Russia corruption eh? 😉
    You can go buy copies of voter rolls on a disc, its public information, same lame there Frisch. 😉

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34. 

    Walt

    01 July 2017

    LOL Stevie.. Corruption you say? The last administration was so corrupt, it made us look like your favorite banana republic. Nice try. Need proof? Hillary and friends are still walking the streets free.(that may change soon enough)
    Plenty of pay to play. Then business get sued, then pay some third party “social justice(ha)nonprofit” shakedown money, with the DOJ’s approval.(Holder jus help’n “his people”.)

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35. 

    Steve Frisch

    01 July 2017

    Posted by: Don Bessee | 01 July 2017 at 04:07 PM
    Don I have bought many of those disks….and there is data redacted…SS numbers, phone numbers, e-mail addresses, etc. to protect privacy. If the Pence Commission wants the data regularly provided to the public they can just buy them.

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36. 

    George Rebane

    01 July 2017

    Administrivia – Due to the overflow of this sandbox, and the focused discussion on the trials and tribulations of President Trump, the continuance of this discussion is invited under ‘The Seething Cauldron of Trump’.
    http://rebaneruminations.typepad.com/rebanes_ruminations/2017/07/the-seething-cauldron-of-trump.html

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