Sandbox – 17jun15

June 2015
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Sandbox – 17jun15

17 June 2015

[Apologies for getting a little pissed in the 'Agnosticism vs Atheism' comment stream. Here's a new sandbox, the old one was getting more than full. gjr]

Posted in Comment Sandbox

390 responses to “Sandbox – 17jun15”

Bill Tozer

21 June 2015

So much hate. How about we poke fun at ourselves for a change of scenery, shall we?
http://patriotpost.us/posts/35887
http://patriotpost.us/posts/35871

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Scott Obermuller

21 June 2015

“…you even write like a German.”
Oh no – not that! First we was crackers, now we’re – you know – ‘German’.
And we all know what tune that dog whistle plays.
“Tired of responding to these long personal attacks on people.”
As opposed to your short ones?
Not sure how tired jon could be as he won’t respond to my questions about his posts.
It’s Sunday, jon – take the day off and rest. You’ll feel all bright-eyed and bushy-tailed Monday morning.

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Todd Juvinall

21 June 2015

Here we go again! Jonnie is a troll so don’t take him seriously as a human. It shows no human traits. LOL! He returned to jis brifge!

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steve frisch

21 June 2015

Posted by: Scott Obermuller | 20 June 2015 at 11:02 PM
You want a statement of my principles like George’s “Conservatarian Credo”?
Well lets see…I support democracy, freedom, capitalism and a controlled market economy, the Constitution, the First Amendment (all three parts), science, equality for all, baseball, small business, land, water and energy conservation, reason, evolution, pragmatism, law, order and justice, the rights and power of the individual, private property, the state as an arbiter or order, the social compact….I guess I could go on?
My favorite color is blue…not the dark blue of the navy but more the pale blue the sky….I mean really WTF are you looking for here?
You are the one who brought up books I have read….I am embarrassed to admit that I read a lot of thrillers like Grisham and Clancy…but I read a lot of history, political economy, economics, religion, science, philosophy, modern fiction and science fiction too….I have read Rules for Radicals and Mein Kamof, I have read the Bible and the Bhagavad Gita, I have read Hayek and Marx, I have read Paul Johnson and Howard Zinn, I have read Noami Oreskes and Bjorn Lomberg….etc.
I have over the years supported public radio, the ACLU and SPLC, my local Chamber of Commerce and Downtown Merchants Association, primarily Democratic political candidates (although I have supported my share of moderate Republicans), and of course the organization I work for.
I have shied away from supporting groups that point guns at the heads of federal agents and threaten to shot them or place women in the front ranks to create a national press incident.
I did once tell some crazy people from a communist front group that having a bake sale to support their newspaper seemed a little silly.
You are on a total fishing expedition here….
Oh and by the way, over the years when people have made statements on this blog that I considered racist I have pointed them out….I guess I am not shy.
I think I have made it clear I think Todd is an idiot, Greg is troll, George is a master propagandist, Russ is intellectually dishonest, Fish is a professional paid provocateur, Barry is occasionally confused, Walt is just a redneck, and you….I am not sure what I think of you my friend…it certainly ain’t “German”.
But I think the main point is that almost everyone here is confused and just flat our wrong about American history, the history of race relations in our country and the modern consequences of that history, and as such, are apologists for a system that perpetuates racial bias.

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Bill Tozer

21 June 2015

My, that was about as interesting as a Father’s Day mini vacation.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=aHIuyCUJO9I

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steve frisch

21 June 2015

Posted by: Bill Tozer | 21 June 2015 at 07:20 AM
I think so too Bill, but then Scott demanded it so….

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Bill Tozer

21 June 2015

Oh Steve Frisch, I was just feeling left out after browsing your list of my fellow posters here. It ain’t easy being a very sensitive warm fuzzy guy and all. Plus, I am truly an attention whore.
Happy Father’s Day. Oh, you omitted Zane Grey from your reading list, but let’s just overlook that sin of omission for now in the spirit of common bonds. I did read Truman Copote’s book, but found it sooo boring. To each his own.

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Todd Juvinall

21 June 2015

I think Frisch is a bit off his noggin. There are no racists on this blog. He is probably feeling guilty about his own racism and is projecting. Freud types should read his screeds and nake it into a manual about delusion.

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Michael R. Kesti

21 June 2015

steve frisch 21Jun15 07:24 AM
I enjoyed it.

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Barry Pruett

21 June 2015

White liberals fuel racism. Period.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ueat1399TGY

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Barry Pruett

21 June 2015

This unfortunate event is an opportunity for us to unite in support of our black brothers and sisters to show that racism is deplorable and ignorant. Instead of seeking unity, we have white liberals seeking to take political advantage by attempting to further divide so that they can maintain their voting block. That is disgusting, and what I have seen here this weekend as to Steve and Jon disgusts me. This is an opportunity to love, but instead we see white liberals fomenting hate. You my friends need to pray for forgiveness and mercy and take the opportunity to express charity.

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fish

21 June 2015

Fish is a professional paid provocateur……..*
WAIT….WHAT?!?! I’m supposed to be getting paid for wasting time chatting up the poor deluded lefty dimwits who frequent this site?!?! Kinda disappointed that you didn’t slip in the Kevin Costner speech to Susan Sarandon from “Bull Durham”in there too Steve.
On a more important note now that you’ve calmed down a bit, secure in the knowledge that we are all racists…..were you going to get around to explaining “Plan Frisch”? The one for exponential economic growth…..cuz if you’re serious I think this would be an excellent time for me to “get in on the ground floor”! I look forward to seeing your presentation!
PS: Kudos George on being named a “Master Propagandist”! I realize that much like the practice in former Eastern bloc countries of bestowing “awards” in lieu of actual compensation this probably doesn’t mean too much to you in any tangible sense an acknowledgment from Steve regarding your nefarious skills is still a lovely gesture!
(….and you guys call the “right” paranoid 🙂 Oh right….satire…..silly me.)

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fish

21 June 2015

….too much to you in any tangible sense an acknowledgment from Steve
too much to you in any tangible sense but an acknowledgment from Steve….
Crap! Need to YouTube “Conjunction Junction” again!

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fish

21 June 2015

Posted by: Bill Tozer | 21 June 2015 at 07:45 AM
Oh William….no need to feel left out! I’ve always thought of you in a “first among equals (racist hater category)” context for your work here at RR.
I’m sure your contributions haven’t gone unnoticed by the “Thought Police”!

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Todd Juvinall

21 June 2015

Barry I don’t think Frisch and Kesti will watch and listen to the link. The black man on his “anti-liberal” rant does not fit their template.
Fish, I too have been waiting breathlessly for the economic plans from Frisch. I am sure he has none, but in his mind he is the “king” and all the rest must accept his pronouncements. His Passage’s Restaurant failure will never be mentioned.
White liberals like Frisch, and wannabees like Kesti are the bane of the country. No solutions, only picayune hate filled diatribes.

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fish

21 June 2015

Oh my…..I wouldn’t have thought that the “sweet, sweet boy” as jeffy likes to call him would have slipped custody this easily?! First a church service now a childs birthday party…..it’s like he’s some kind of racist super hero!
http://www.wxyz.com/news/5-people-shot-on-detroits-west-side-one-fatal
Wait?? Not him?! Ah well…continue with your day then!
I’m sure the usual suspects will be along shortly to inform us that this is all our fault!

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steve frisch

21 June 2015

Boy Barry, I cannot even begin to tell you how many ways the critique expressed in that ‘rant’ on You Tube does not apply to this situation.
First, my objection to the ignoring of or misrepresenting of American racial history long pre-dates the events of Charleston.
Second, I am not disregarding the ‘number one killer of black men’ there are many policies I support and that many Democrats support that directly address that issue including improving public education, open and fair housing laws, fair lending laws, increased minimum wages, gun control, and community policing.
Third, I agree with him that ‘most white folks are not commending this crime’; and no one said they were. To the contrary most white liberals (whom I by the way am not a spokesperson for because I am a moderate more than a liberal) are commending the unity and values expressed by all people in the wake of this crime. You are using the comments on the video to construct a straw man.
Fourth no one is claiming to speak on behalf of black Americans, another straw man.
Fifth, no one ever said that anyone was saying that most white folks are racists; I said that many people here turn a blind eye to racism, and we sometimes harbor racism in our midst without calling it what it is.
Sixth his basic premise in the video is incorrect, no one is saying that ‘black folks can’t think for themselves’, to the contrary I think they are doing a mighty fine job of calling it like it is, a system that condones racism, and even romanticizes it with symbols like the ridiculous Confederate flag, and myths about our history and Civil War.
My basic premise is that when we tell lies like that the Civil War was about a Constitutional principle like states rights we are apologists for slavery and racism that followed it. George has told that lie here many times and no one here seems confortable refuting it. When we harbor people like Richard Mack in our midst who hob-nob with white supremacist militias we are condoning their behavior. I noticed that you avoided responding to my rebuttal of your outrage over calling that one out. When we engage in rhetoric about black race baiting as Todd does here on his web site, we are fueling the same racial hatred that has divided our country; no one here calls him out for that. When we call people ragheads; one person here called someone a ‘jigaboo’; when we continually point to urban crime as a function of race as many here have; when we denigrate people for cultural traits, which I have seen here, we are engaging in racism.
You can get on your holy high horse but when the chips are down you turn a blind eye to racist rhetoric, stereotypes and behavior. It is easy to pray with the victims of Charleston this weekend it is hard to call your friends out when they violate that prayer every other day of the week. You do that and I may rescind my critique.

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Michael R. Kesti

21 June 2015

Todd Juvinall 21Jun15 08:44 AM
Barry I don’t think…
If you had stopped there, Todd, you would have been correct.

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steve frisch

21 June 2015

I think it about time someone tried to seek political advantage from tragedies like the Charleston massacre, or Newton, or the shooting of black children by police. We have a society that taught that kid to hate, that filled his head with the idea that acting out in this way was an option, that provided him with the patches of racism, that gave him the ideas in his manifesto, that sent him to the museum of the Confederacy and a plantation to take his pictures, and that ignored his clear signs that he was going to commit murder.
If we don’t learn from our inability to recognize that how will we ever learn?
By the way, I did not see any of you saying, “we should pray with the victims of Paris deli massacre” and ignore the system that enabled it. You were right there calling Islam the religion of hate, so the double standard you are applying here is just plain crazy.

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steve frisch

21 June 2015

Oh and Todd you might note that I watched the video because unlike you I actually go to source material 🙂

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Todd Juvinall

21 June 2015

Kesti, if yopu had read the full line you would have earned something precious.
Frisch 9″34AM, Say what? I went to the video and that guys was talking about you! Just put Steve Frisch in place of “white liberal” and there you have it. You are the problem, not us. Jeeze you are to easy. Kesti is just dumb but you are dumb and full of yourself.

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Walt

21 June 2015

yup,, “redneck” and proud of it. Us rednecks are more American and freedom loving than the likes of you will ever be. LIBS have gone to great strides to curtail freedoms. They never met a restriction they didn’t like. ( Oh… except ONE… drug use)
Love it. Now Steve is “revising” the civil war. What Next Lincoln was Democrat?

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steve frisch

21 June 2015

I can’t think of anything more ‘full of oneself’ than publishing a “Conservatarian Credo” based on a made up word and copyrighting a monograph on “Caudaphobia” another made up word 🙂

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Todd Juvinall

21 June 2015

Well hey SAteve Frisch, is that worse than a Sierra Business Council CEO spewing commie hatred and racist chat all the time?

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steve frisch

21 June 2015

Perfect example from Todd’s blog this morning: “So I read the article and it became clear to me that real Germans, the white ones, were not those “Germans” that were headed to the ISIL camps to learn how to blow themselves to smithereens along with innocent children. But to really find out this fact, that the people headed out were “immigrants” from other countries, such as Turkey or other Islamic countries, one has to search and analyze. Just as these reporters do here in American articles, you just can’t find out the nationality of people other than “white” in these stories.”
That is right Todd, only white people are ‘Germans’ (a nationality not a race) and the US press only identifies ‘white people’ in their stories, a meme I would challenge to to verify in any way other than your ridiculous twisted vision of the American press.

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fish

21 June 2015

We have a society that taught that kid to hate, that filled his head with the idea that acting out in this way was an option, that provided him with the patches of racism, that gave him the ideas in his manifesto, that sent him to the museum of the Confederacy and a plantation to take his pictures, and that ignored his clear signs that he was going to commit murder.
But Steve…..it’s the progressive left that’s been driving the culture and society in general since the late 60’s…..is it possible that your societal prescriptions are failing?
What were the “clear signs”? Your “Stormfronters” seem as likely to go on selfie binges (a hobby like young Mr. Roof apparently enjoyed much) as vibrant inner city urban dwellers but seem far less likely to shoot them.

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Jon

21 June 2015

Clearly Walt owns a few Confederate battle flags. Unfortunately its days when people displayed it with pride- are numbered.
No doubt it will remain a symbol for more underground hate groups.

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Jon

21 June 2015

From a good NYT piece today- regarding Republican SC legislators who have had enough of the battle flag:
“One Republican legislator is already pushing to take it down. State Representative Norman D. Brannon, who represents a conservative district upstate and was a friend of Mr. Pinckney said he will file a bill in the next session of the legislature to remove the flag from the Capitol grounds.
In an interview Saturday, Mr. Brannon said every one of the approximately 25 legislators he had talked with about his measure had been positive, either expressing support or at least offering encouragement.
“The flag is kind of like algae in a lake,” he said. “It’s just barely under the surface, everybody knows it’s there, but unless something like this happens nobody talks about it.”
In this case, he spoke bluntly about what that something was.
“What lit the fire under this was the tragic death of my friend and his eight parishioners,” Mr. Brannon said. “It took my buddy’s death to get me to do this. I should feel ashamed of myself.”
He said that the presidential candidates should not mince words. “I would tell them to take a position on the flag.”

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Scott Obermuller

21 June 2015

Steve at 7:05 – Thank you. You made my points right down the line.
You continue to spew only generalities for principles.
I can claim just the same. How are you any better?
You continue to claim that people that post here whom you won’t name say ‘racists’ things you can’t cite.
I can I can easily tie you to all sorts of murderous ogres of history through the books you have read and orgs you support. Through the same sort of flimsy connections you cite for folks you don’t like.
Best of all:
“If we don’t learn from our inability to recognize that how will we ever learn?”
OK, Steve – at what point would you have had the police detain that idiot kid? And on what charge and how long would they hold him?
And would you like to be held by the same standards?

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Jon

21 June 2015

hey Steve, re: Germans- with your last name and my own 3/4 German heritage, obviously no offense meant to Germans or German ancestry. My comment goes back to funny conversations I used to have with a very good Dutch friend and soccer colleague when describing another player on our team who was lacking any semblance of flexibility; bullet points for comments, strictly no emotion, just hard line, no compromise, no nuance.
Being Dutch, his immediate description was always- “he’s German, what do you expect”?

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Bill Tozer

21 June 2015

First, I kinda relate to Mr. Kesti, even if I misspell his name on occasion. He is more pure libertarian than most. Guess I can relate to Kesti and that libertarian streak.
*Quick side note: Kesti did not diss me on another thread, fellows. Ignorant just means not knowing, like when using milktoast as an adjective, as opposed to a noun, as in jon’s response was rather milktoast. Or is that an adverb?? Been a berry berry long time since I sleep with my high school English teacher and got a very good grade as a direct result of my after school tutoring. Now days they call that child abuse. Oh abuse me, abuse this horny young teenager to the max I say. She taught me a few things as well. “If loving you is wrong, I don’t wanna be right.”, but I digress and regress.
Thus, instead of milquetoast, my ignorance of putting letters in the correct order showed and even needed a Q and an U. Go figure. No dissing, just the facts, ma’am. Did I say *quick side note? Haha. Just like a lib who believes everything and lies a lot. Me bad, so berry berry bad. Me likes berries berry berry much.
Well, I finally figured out what makes the Emery Twins, little jonn, and white libs tick. Such a glum lot explained….and to music for entertainment value. I, for one, and proud to don bright colors on my back.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=rLwn_9j_n_c

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Jon

21 June 2015

Kesti 9:32, well done…:)

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George Rebane

21 June 2015

For the record, my reading of history is quite a bit different than that of our liberal readers. For example, we learn from Shelby Foote, preeminent Civil War historian, that the South wanted to peacefully secede from the Union, and Lincoln fought the war in order to preserve the Union in its then entirety. For the North slavery was an ancillary issue, and if the South would not have fought for its independence then slavery would no doubt have continued for some more years – i.e. there would have been no Emancipation Proclamation of 1863 – until public sentiment, politics, and economics would have given rise to a different process for the slaves to be freed. But for progressives like Steven Frisch, such sentiments and their expression are evidence of racism, pure and simple.
In any event, now that everyone has convinced their counterparts of the wisdom of their own closely held beliefs, may I invite you to consider continuing your labors in the new 21jun15 sandbox.

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steve frisch

21 June 2015

Posted by: George Rebane | 21 June 2015 at 10:28 AM
You completely misrepresented my view, and the view of many historians, of antebellum history–I never contended that the north was motivated to fight the Civil War over abolition, quite the contrary I know they did not, that they fought for the preservation of the Union–the contention is that the south was motivated to fight the Civil war over the retention and expansion of slavery, because it was in their economic interest to retain human beings in bondage, not in the protection of states rights. That is what I am saying as racism, pure and simple.

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Jon

21 June 2015

George, even if your misreprentation of Steve’s view was valid, how would that evidence of racism, pure and simple? There are plenty of Civil War writers with different interpretations- like African-American Barbara Fields- you would lump her as racist? I would further add- Shelby Foote, while being an incredible source of material, interesting guy, and great story teller, is far from the defining authority for Civil War factual matters.

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fish

21 June 2015

By the way, I did not see any of you saying, “we should pray with the victims of Paris deli massacre” and ignore the system that enabled it. You were right there calling Islam the religion of hate, so the double standard you are applying here is just plain crazy.
Actually there was a “Je Suis Charlie” thread:
http://rebaneruminations.typepad.com/rebanes_ruminations/2015/01/reflections-on-islam.html#more
Not much in the way of prayer though.
Again Steve, what “system” enabled Dylan Roofs crime?

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Todd Juvinall

21 June 2015

My goodness, Steve Frisch is sure protesting his hate filled monologues isn’t he? There are no middle/right posters here who are racists. Only the liberals like Frisch are ranting about this. I believe America is for everyone that wants to believe in freedom and hope. Those like Frisch that take advantage of the fruits of others labor to then complain about them is the typical liberal pablum better set in Moscow 1972.
Enablers of hate seem to take every tragedy or misfortune to start the name calling and I can only include that people such as Steve Frisch are such self haters they think everyone else is too. My guess is he has never spent time with people of “color” and only his “books” told him about it.

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steve frisch

21 June 2015

Posted by: Jon | 21 June 2015 at 10:45 AM
I am actually a fan of Shelby Foote and consider his three volume history of the Civil War a must read. However, Mr. Foote did not extensively cover the antebellum period, did not cover the economic aspect of the war or the events leading up to the war other than in a cursory fashion, and did not go into detail on the politics of the antebellum period. He was masterful in his detail on the battle history and the strategy and tactics of the war, which has real merit.
I would recommend Throes of Democracy by Walter McDougall; Race and Reunion: The Civil War in American Memory, by David Blight; The Fiery Trial: Abraham Lincoln and American Slavery, and Reconstruction: America’s Unfinished Revolution, by Eric Foner; Slavery and the Commerce Power by David Lightner; and Contested Democracy: Freedom, Race and Power in American History.
I have not read Barbara Fields Racecraft yet, but it is on my list eventually.

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Jon

21 June 2015

I started my Civil War battle reading way back with Bruce Catton, then Foote’s trilogy, Stephen Sears, et al, but wouldn’t reference any of them for societal/racial aspects of the time- the lead-up and reconstruction periods. Foote, in particular, was way too deeply rooted in the Southern culture for any real objectivity of the higher level discussions. When you hear the term Southern Gentleman, the picture of Shelby Foote is what you see.

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fish

21 June 2015

Posted by: Todd Juvinall | 21 June 2015 at 11:15 AM
My guess is he has never spent time with people of “color” and only his “books” told him about it.
Well it’s my understanding that he grew up in Chicago…..interesting that the palest guy who regularly comments here chose to live in a burgh that weighs in with the following demographics:
The racial makeup of Truckee was 13,992 (86.5%) White, 3,016 (18.6%) Hispanic or Latino, 60 (0.4%), African American, 95 (0.6%) Native American, 241 (1.5%) Asian, 15 (0.1%) Pacific Islander, 1,431 (8.8%) from other races, and 346 (2.1%) from two or more races.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Truckee,_California#Demographics
As an aside my inter-family demographics are more diverse and have higher percentages of minorities….black in this instance (Hat tip-Big Mike and Aunt Dee Dee) than Truckee. My wife and oldest stepdaughter beat Truckee in the Hispanic category as well 40%…(well okay 30% as my wife is mixed white, Mexican, and Native American) vs 20% for Truckee. Truckee is almost 15% points whiter than Portland….reputed to be the “Whitest City in America”. Granted they fight in different weight categories but still it makes you wonder…..?
Of course looking at the SBC roster doesn’t help his bona fides vis a vis White Supremacy……they’re pretty pale as well. I work with more blacks and Hispanics than Steve does as well!
Hmmmm….you might be on to something Todd…..what could he be compensating for??

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Todd Juvinall

21 June 2015

My grandaughter is half white and half Mexican/American. I think that beats old whitey Steve Frisch too. I really don’t know what he is trying compensate for either fish. It sounds like he doesn’t like his “color” and desires to be something else. Or, just the run of the mill self hating white liberal like that YOUTUBE video black guy said.If Frisch were serious about race he would be the first one in line implementing “affirmative action” in white cracker SBC-land.
Jonnie, who knows, probably needs his meds. LOL!

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steve frisch

21 June 2015

While you are engaging in pop psychological diagnoses why does Todd talk so much about his prowess?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cDQk4lGSEJQ

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George Rebane

21 June 2015

SteveS 1035am and Jon 1045am – Have no idea what “misrepresentation” of mine you are referring to since you did not summarize what I said. And Jon’s view that Shelby Foote “is far from the defining authority for Civil War factual matters” puts him into a class of his own. Even PBS, not known for its rightwing outlook and interpretations, featured Shelby Foote as the definitive Civil War historian in a multi-part series (based on his trilogy) in which Foote was celebrated for his work by other historians and academics. But then, my purpose here is not to change your minds, but simply to again point to the chasm that separates us on about every dimension of human activity on this planet – history, science, economics, sociology, domestic and foreign policies, … . Nevertheless, I consider our variant perspectives as an important part of RR’s contribution to illuminating the ‘mind of 21st century America’.

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Gregory

21 June 2015

Let’s summarize the events as they intersect with this blog:
A young man from a broken family shoots up a prayer meeting, killing nine people who are all black, racial epithets are involved. It has since come out (a black drinking buddy of the shooter) that he was telling his black friends that he was going to shoot up a college.
Frisch and Jon come here to take the blood they dipped their hands into and smear it on posters here. After Sandy Hook Frisch only had gun law changes in mind to try to beat people with here but this has the bonus of his unfocused and unsubstantiated view than many posters here are, in fact, racists. He generally refuses to cite any specific names or quotes, his spidey sense is guiding his libels.
Does that pretty much sum it up?
I find it interesting Flood was dithering between shooting up a group of blacks in church or a local college. My guess is that, at 21, both groups were passing him by and he wanted to do something to make himself stand out. I’ve read nothing about the teachings of his parents but I’m sure Father’s day is not pleasant for Flood’s, not only for his son’s notoriety: it was his dad and his uncle who identified him for police.
Frisch and “Jon”, grow up and stop siezing tragedies for partisan political purposes.

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Gregory

21 June 2015

Roof, not Flood. How I managed that substitution I’ve no clue but it might be the lack of watching any TV coverage and generally avoiding the news as it dribbles out.

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steve frisch

21 June 2015

Posted by: George Rebane | 21 June 2015 at 12:42 PM
George, you referenced my reading when you said, “my reading of history is quite a bit different than that of our liberal readers”. Since I was the only one bringing up the Civil War and its interpretation, that could only have been referring to me.
There are some other problems with your position:
1) Although I agree Shelby Foote is a good military historian (and I enjoyed reading his work), you never addressed the point I brought up that he did not cover antebellum economic and political history, and thus he was not an expert on that history. Saying this does not put Jon in a class of his own, go on line and read the critiques by contemporary historians of Mr. Foote’s work, AND read other historians interpretations and compare them.
2) The following quote is another example of the revising of history I have seen you do: “that the South wanted to peacefully secede from the Union”. This is disingenuous at best because it omits the key facts. The South did not just want to ‘succeed from the Union”, they wanted to extend slavery westward to the west coast and above the Missouri Compromise line, they wanted to break the Compromise of 1850 agreement over the inclusion of slave and free states, and they wanted to EXTEND slavery to Mexico where it was outlawed and annex Cuba in order to maintain and expand their markets for slaves. This is not ‘peacefully sucede.” This would have blocked western expansion of free states and created a hegemonic slave empire to the south of the Union.
If you purpose is not to change minds but illustrate the chasm, then perhaps you should READ MORE!

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Todd Juvinall

21 June 2015

Gregory sunmmed up the two white crackers, Frisch and “Jonnie” quite well. I see Frisch and Jonnie, (I think he is MA) are still obsessed with my prowess (LOL) so here is a link for the wannabee Frisch’s deepest fantasies. Too funny.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cDQk4lGSEJQ

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Don Bessee

21 June 2015

It is still very interesting our ranting leftists both were in full CCC mode on the topic of the financial crooks that had run amok in the County for so long. They both even passed on the chance to throw a rock at the DA on the issue or the Republicans for endorsing the DA in the last election. Then a friend of the forger shows up in the wee smalls. I would have at least expected a dismissive snark but nothing at all. Now what is their motivation to whistle past the 90 or so counts that came in guilty on Friday?

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Gregory

21 June 2015

Nothing of Frisch’s 1:33 establishes his borderline insane view that the Confederacy would not have preferred the Union to just let it go.
Personally, I think we in the North would have been better served by waving goodbye to the South rather than wage a bloody war that haunts us to this day. Besides, the right to secede is all but specified in Jefferson’s homage to Locke, the Declaration of Independence, not that the Declaration has any force of law.

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steve frisch

21 June 2015

Posted by: Todd Juvinall | 21 June 2015 at 01:37 PM
Very thoughtful of Todd to post confirmation of my suspicion that he has no…

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