Rebane's Ruminations
January 2013
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George Rebane

Debt is an injustice imposed on borrowers by greedy lenders who do not deserve to be repaid – from the liberal mind.

Forbes has identified eleven states that are in an economic “death spiral”.  These are the pictured states whose taker/maker ratios equal or exceed 1.00, states where takers are the government employees and welfare recipients, and makers are those who are taxed to pay for the takers.

TakerMakerMap
This list of shame reads New Mexico 1.53, Mississippi 1.49, California 1.39, Alabama 1.10, Maine 1.07, New York 1.07, South Carolina 1.06, Kentucky 1.05, Illinois 1.03, Hawaii 1.02, and Ohio 1.00.  From this we see that California has 1.39 takers for every diminishing maker in the state.  [H/T to regular reader for the heads up on this.]

Victor Davis Hanson is keeping a stiff upper lip as he reports the goings on in the once golden state.

Not just in its finances but almost wherever you look, the state’s vital signs are dipping. The average unemployment rate hovers above 10 percent. In the reading and math tests administered by the National Assessment of Educational Progress, California students rank near the bottom of the country, though their teachers earn far more than the average American teacher does. California’s penal system is the largest in the United States, with more than 165,000 inmates. Some studies estimate that the state prisons and county jails house more than 30,000 illegal aliens at a cost of $1 billion or more each year. Speaking of which: California has the nation’s largest population of illegal aliens, on whom it spends an estimated $10 billion annually in entitlements. The illegals also deprive the Golden State’s economy of billions of dollars every year by sending remittances to Latin America.

For those wanting more than a little depth on this entire issue, Nicholas Eberstadt has written an analysis that pulls together the magnitude of the disease our country is afflicted with in his A Nation of Takers – America’s Entitlements Epidemic (2012).

The government statistics he quotes that document our behavior over the last 50 years or so are devastating.  Many of them have also been presented on RR, and, of course, duly rejected by our leftwing neighbors.  Eberstadt cites that 98% of Americans over 65 receive SS and Medicare payments. But what is more shocking is that in 1960 only 0.65% of 18-64 year olds were receiving SS disability payments, and that number today has swollen to almost 6%.  And well over a third of these are getting checks for “musculoskeletal and connective tissue” maladies and “mood disorders” – clearly the nation has discovered and is exploiting a new commons and getting while the getting is good.

The problem, it appears, is that once the government spigot is put in place and turned on, there is little chance of stopping people from demanding more spigots flowing at ever greater rates.  Contributor to the book, Yuval Levin notes that “Liberal democracy has always depended upon a kind of person it does not produce.”  These stark factors that now describe the landscape of American propensities have formed the basis of my own established assessment that we are beyond the tipping point that forebodes failure in the great experiment of our ability to govern ourselves.  And by no means is this a solitary vision of our future.

Meanwhile the looney Left denies all of this, and with supermajorities in both houses in Sacramento, you ain’t seen nothing yet when it comes to taxing and regulating the state’s Makers.

 

 

Posted in , ,

202 responses to “Takers vs Makers”

  1. Steve Frisch Avatar
    Steve Frisch

    Seriously, defining anyone who uses Social Security or Medicare when they are programs they have paid into their entire lives, and defining anyone using unemployment, which is also paid into, and is an insurance program, as a “taker”, then using it to create a meaningless national rating system, and making long term investment and financial projections based on this faux index, is the height of ridiculousness. I hope every one of your friendly right wing ideologues moves their money based on the Forbes Faux Index. And really, 98% of seniors are “takers”? Please….promote that little ditty. Once agin, propaganda 1, critical thinking 0.

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  2. Ben Avatar
    Ben

    Mr. Frisch, Exactly what did the welfare queens you mention pay into? Are you talking about the taxes everyone paid to fund general government spending? Oh, you were one of those saps who believed there were special funds because the taxes had special names. I’m sorry to be the one to break this to you, but there is no fund. Your inheritance from your parents is an IOU, and your legacy to your kids is their privilege to fund your government welfare check in your advanced age.

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  3. Ryan Mount Avatar

    Social Security and Medicare entitlements don’t bother me as long as their well-managed. And regarding the standard? Social Security is debatable (its hard to get a clear picture on its state) and Medicare is a fiscal train wreck. Unemployment insurance is kind of the same. If we signed up to provide these, willingly or not, we need to support them with taxes. However I don’t get the sense that we’re serious about that: Democrats spend money we don’t have; Republicans want to starve it. Both cowardly solutions.
    What bothers me, are things like this:
    http://www.sfgate.com/news/article/PUC-set-to-OK-free-phones-for-homeless-4104121.php
    Now I fully understand the intention, which is to provide the underprivileged with connections to potential employment and family, but I really believe this is inappropriate considering how much in the hole we’re in.
    By my amateur calculations, this program could cost the Federal and State Government approximately $672,000,000.00 per year. (that’s 560,000* eligible x $100/month**)
    *http://www.sfgate.com/news/article/PUC-set-to-OK-free-phones-for-homeless-4104121.php
    **http://www.sacbee.com/2012/12/14/5053797/california-puc-approves-giving.html

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  4. Ryan Mount Avatar

    *they’re well managed. Sorry.

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  5. Michael Anderson Avatar
    Michael Anderson

    Just walked outside…yep, sky still not falling!

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  6. George Rebane Avatar

    MichaelA 903am – as a man of the Left, you are probably one of the most happy campers reading RR. Just to better understand your offered observations, could you please outline for us what a falling sky would look like to you?

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  7. Ryan Mount Avatar

    @Michael. Did you hear the latest David Bowie Song? It’s a well-crafted nostalgia piece that talks just about that. But the back drop is his experience in the counter-culture of 1970s Berlin.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FOyDTy9DtHQ
    His refrain, “Where are we now?” is answered at the end of the song.
    As long as there’s Sun
    As Long as there’s rain
    As long as there’s fire
    As long as there’s me
    As long as there’s you
    It’s somber, but hopeful. And a lovely song. The guy still has it.

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  8. Brad Croul Avatar
    Brad Croul

    Sorry, but it is pretty much of a cop-out to blame liberals as the sole perpetrators of all the problems you perceive everywhere. Also, a lot of businessmen (of whom I am sure not all are liberals) must be making a lot of money providing products to the entitlement industrial complex, for example, examining patients and selling overpriced drugs to prisons, hospitals, hypochondriacs, etc.
    The statistic that, “As (Eberstadt) notes, in 1960, entitlement payments accounted for well under a third of the federal government’s total outlays. Today, entitlement spending accounts for a full two-thirds of the federal budget”, could be the result of a huge population spike working its way through the economy and not just a liberal conspiracy to destroy the country and turn it into a socialist state.
    Conservatives are also the recipients of the same entitlements, and conservatives also support massive government spending to forward agenda items usually ascribed to a conservative mindset such as world hegemony, the military, prisons, immigration enforcement, Homeland Security, War on Drugs, etc.
    For example, “During the past fiscal year the Obama administration spent $18 billion dollars on immigration enforcement according to a new report. Research from the Migration Policy Institute revealed that the funding for immigration funding for immigration enforcement dwarfs the amount given to any other federal law enforcement agency. Federal spending on the FBI, Drug Enforcement Administration, U.S. Marshals, and the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives totaled just $14.4 billion combined, according to the report… Over the last five years the number of border crossers apprehended has decreased by 53 percent, though spending on staffing and technology has increased throughout the same period. Still, there are those who maintain that the country still is not doing enough to maintain its borders.”
    http://atlantablackstar.com/2013/01/08/federal-immigration-enforcement-budget-doubles-all-other-agencies-combined/
    That is still close to $30 Billion to chase evil doers around – not including military and Homeland Security.
Since the terrorist attacks of September 11, 2001, the federal government has spent more than half a trillion dollars on homeland security.
The President Requested $68.9 Billion to Fund Homeland Security Activities in 2013; About Half Would Be Allocated to the Department of Homeland Security
The President’s request of $68.9 billion is 1.3 percent more than the amount provided for 2012. Although every Cabinet-level department receives homeland security funding, approximately 90 percent of the requested funding would be allocated to four departments:
    Department of Homeland Security (DHS—$35.5 billion, or 52 percent of the total homeland security request);
Department of Defense (DoD—$17.9 billion, or 26 percent);
Department of Health and Human Services (HHS—$4.1 billion or 6 percent); and
Department of Justice (DOJ—$4.0 billion or 6 percent).
    I would say it is both the entitlement industrial complex and the military/prison/homeland security/law enforcement industrial complexes we must better manage.
    When times are good, the government grows with the economy. When times are bad, the economy shrinks, but the government stays bloated and hungry.

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  9. Brad Croul Avatar
    Brad Croul

    Last month, the Senate Budget Committee reports that in fiscal year 2011, between food stamps, housing support, child care, Medicaid and other benefits, the average US household below the poverty line received $168 a day in government support. What’s the problem with that much support? Well, the median household income in America is just over $50,000, which averages out to $137.13 a day. To put it another way, being on welfare now pays the equivalent of $30 an hour for a 40-hour week, while the average job pays $25 an hour. And the person who works also has to pay taxes, which drops his pay to $21 an hour. It’s no wonder that welfare is now the biggest part of the budget, more than Social Security or defense. And why would anyone want to get off welfare when working pays $9 an hour less?
    For more of the Huckabe Report, visit MikeHuckabee.com.
    Higher wages, or less social programs, or both, or neither?

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  10. Michael Anderson Avatar
    Michael Anderson

    Yeah, what Brad said.
    George wrote: “…as a man of the Left, you are probably one of the most happy campers reading RR.” Please, call me a libertarian progressive if you want to be an accurate labeler. But you are correct that I’m an eternal optimist. Perhaps it’s because I have an 11 yr. old and an 8 yr. old running around in my house–I see their energy and enthusiasm and know that everything’s gonna work out just fine.
    Ryan, just heard the song yesterday. I agree, truly lovely.

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  11. Michael Anderson Avatar
    Michael Anderson

    Brad: Huckabe Report? Seriously??
    George, here is a falling sky: http://www.amazon.com/Witness-Diaries-Victor-Klemperer-1933-41/dp/0297818422
    We’re nowhere near that point.

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  12. Ken Jones Avatar
    Ken Jones

    These states give more in federal taxes than they receive back: New Jersey, Nevada, Connecticut, New Hampshire, Minnesota, Illinois, Delaware, California, New York, Colorado.
    These states pay less in federal taxes than they receive back:
    New Mexico, Mississippi, Alaska, Louisiana, W. Virginia, N.Dakota, Alabama S. Dakota, Virginia, Kentucky
    Alaska is per capita No 1 recipient of federal benefits; infrastructure projects, DOT and pork projects. Red State mentality.
    CA is the 9th largest world economy, LA County the 16th largest world economy. Doom and Gloom from George as usual. Maybe our conservatives need to look at the entire picture instead of the tunnel vision that seems to have inflicted the majority of conservatives.

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  13. Joe Koyote Avatar
    Joe Koyote

    The notion that “government employees” are takers is obscene and stupid. By that analysis teachers, policeman, fire fighters, soldiers, park rangers, tax collectors, county supervisors, Republican congress people, Caltrans workers, public health workers, etc. etc. are all takers of your precious dollars. George Bush gets a government pension plus secret service protection, is he a taker? What did he contribute to the greater good, ever? How many jobs do you create per year George? Do you have Medicare or get a SS check? What about the former CEO who makes $1.4m per month in retirement and also collects their $1600 in SS. Are they takers? Government is not a business, it is a not-for-profit public service. Is that the problem? Do you condemn public workers because they don’t make a profit? I recently ran across a new term for me, “consensus reality.” They idea is that we all create our own version of what facts are real or not; our reality. And as we all know, given the internet and the multitude of special interest funded think tanks, anyone can find “facts” to support their personal reality like comparing 1960s spending to now. These are spurious causes and effects. For example, far better explanations for the increase in unemployment, welfare ,etc is the vast transfer of wealth to the upper 1% that also occurred during this same time frame and/or the movement of practically all of the manufacturing jobs in America overseas. More Americans need help now than in 1960. To blame “liberal thinking” for this is absurd.
    This is where consensus reality comes in. Consensus reality is that version of the facts that a majority of people believe to be true. Those of you on the extreme right have had a reality created for you by self-serving information sources that is by and large completely out of touch with most of the rest of humanity. Victor Davis Hansen is a conservative pan banger and right wing extremist who is taken with a grain of salt outside of the extreme right wing reality. Your sources and ideas can be dismissed just as easily and with the same arguments as you dismiss the ideas and sources of the left.

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  14. George Rebane Avatar

    JoeK 1115am – “Your sources and ideas can be dismissed just as easily and with the same arguments as you dismiss the ideas and sources of the left.” Yes, and that is the overarching point in our nation today. No one has identified a middle ground acceptable to our polarized ideologies. Both sides consider the other wallowing in gross error that is due to extreme ignorance or worse, evil.

    Like

  15. Brad Croul Avatar
    Brad Croul

    Michael, Lol!
    I was merely noting my source. It was the basis of an email I received this morning from one of my conservative friends. I posted the sort of multiple choice at the end because I thought the Huckster’s post could be taken more than one way.

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  16. Ryan Mount Avatar

    Hear via our media outlets (paraphrasing due to a gin-induced blur):
    “After the President spoke today, we here in the newsroom are wondering if what he said swayed people’s opinions.”
    How many times have we heard that? 56,345?
    How about asking this this, talking heads: “Was what he said F@#$ing true?!!!!”
    I don’t care who something comes from as much as if it’s true or not? Mike Huckabee? So what? What if Noam Chomsky said the same thing? Or Dr. Oz?
    http://budget.senate.gov/republican/public/index.cfm/budget-background?ID=f1f23669-79fb-4a25-bafc-6a28f82f9c75
    Note, there was NO, as in zero, response from the Democrats. What was that you think? Anyone, Buehler?
    http://budget.senate.gov/democratic/
    Not even a “you’re an old fart, STFU Senator Sessions. But the Democrats do a much better job an drafting pretty and misleading graphs and charts.

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  17. Scott Obermuller Avatar

    I’m seeing the problem here. “CA is the 9th largest world economy, LA County the 16th largest world economy. Doom and Gloom from George as usual. Maybe our conservatives need to look at the entire picture instead of the tunnel vision that seems to have inflicted the majority of conservatives.”
    We’re the biggest, so we have nothing to worry about? Where does this kind of reason come from? The tunnel vision thing we conservatives have is called looking at the bottom line. The bottom line is that we are broke. And getting more so every day. Being big just means we can push the credit lines around for a longer period of time before the repo man comes. Not too long ago my lefty/lib bro-in-law sent me one of the many articles happily pointing out that Texas actually had a bigger debt problem than Cali. The only hitch was that the Texas debt was projected and the Cali debt was actual. Now it seems Texas has a projected surplus of billions and Cali is sinking even further. I realize that the lefties here will just shrug and roll out their new trillion dollar coin. Problem solved. Next. When the rest of the world will refuse to ship us anything until we send back an equally sized ship full of gold, our friends on the left will have a look of shock. Then the shooting starts.
    And it won’t be AR15s. Lessons not learned from history are painfully re-played.

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  18. Ken Jones Avatar
    Ken Jones

    Scott conservatives look to the negative and negative only and you are mired in that single element of negativity. Does CA have problems? You bet. However being in a position with such a large economy we can and will improve. Go ahead focus on what you deem as salient points. Ignore that CA receives less than it pays yet a majority of conservative states get more than they pay. Yep tunnel vision, enjoy the view.

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  19. Ryan Mount Avatar

    Scott conservatives look to the negative and negative only and you are mired in that single element of negativity.
    Isn’t that a negative comment? I’m pretty sure negativity is an equal opportunity–I dunno–something.
    I tend to think most of our issues/problems/whatever stem from a profound lack of imagination and a disdain for the sanctity of the individual. And in that vacuum, cynicism pours in. As does victimization. Not that I’m anyone to criticize that.

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  20. Ken Jones Avatar
    Ken Jones

    Ryan yep maybe a negative analysis and comment but it is sure damn true. Not that I am a pie-in-the-sky Pollyanna progresive, I just tend to see more of the half full glass than the empty glass and empty rhetoric I read on this blog from some participants.

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  21. Ryan Mount Avatar

    That’s fine Ken. I appreciate your candor.

    see more of the half full glass than the empty glass
    I always see the glass as 1/2 wasted space. But that’s the GenXer in me. “What else,” I ask myself, “can I use that 50% of space for? Maybe we need a smaller glass?”

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  22. Joe Koyote Avatar
    Joe Koyote

    George 11:24 –Divide and conquer. The polarization is by design. Our culture is infused with competition.. someone has to win and someone has to lose. While the two sides argue over whose mountain of bullshit stinks least, the real enemies and issues remain clouded from our vision. We are all being played for suckers. The only question is who is playing whom.

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  23. TheMikeyMcD Avatar
    TheMikeyMcD

    Do you notice that the government is openly coming after the rich and now openly coming after our means of protection (guns)? The parallels to the 1930’s Germany are growing. Shall we wait until we are loaded into train cars?
    Posted by: Michael Anderson | 09 January 2013 at 10:52 AM
    The sky only seems to be falling for those of us who are responsible for paying the bills. Bills that are so large (and growing by Trillions -quarterly) they can never possibly be paid.

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  24. Todd Juvinall Avatar

    Ken Jones makes a sweeping statement that conservatives are negative and he, a progressive” is a happy camper type. What a total crock. The right is made up of positive go-getters. How does anyone with a liberal person succeed when all they see and talk about are bad things? I know liberals and have talked to them many times. They are dour, sour and dull. The people on the right are movers and shakers with bright smiles and happy dreams. Liberals think because we chastise government (their mama) we are unhappy people like them. Sorry Charlie.

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  25. Paul Emery Avatar

    George
    Do you consider retired military as part of the “taker” group? It just takes 20 years to earn a pretty fat pension. You can go in at 18 and receive a pension at 38 and cruise for 40 years average.

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  26. TheMikeyMcD Avatar
    TheMikeyMcD

    Even the most dense progressive must admit that the tone of everything coming out of Washington is ‘scary’. Insane tax increases (hate the rich!), gun confiscation, we need more debt to address our debt crisis, etc
    Is it the crappy education system, the soon to be bankrupt SS/medicare programs, the propensity to be in undeclared wars that have earned the illogical amount of respect progressive have for their godverment?

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  27. Ryan Mount Avatar

    Joe Koyote | 04:03 PM > he polarization is by design. Our culture is infused with competition.. someone has to win and someone has to lose
    That’s a VERY good thing. Not that losing is any fun or easy. Ask Jerry Cirino. Ask Lefty’s.
    Look Joe, only the best ideas survive vigorous debates. That’s one of the greatest gifts of the Enlightenment and Romantic eras: thesis and antithesis. They duke it out, and the winner becomes the new thesis. We used to call this process “progress,” as in the root of “progressive,” but it turns out not too many people are in the mood for real progress and rather are more interested in security and safety. Removing Liberties, for example, is hardly progress. It’s a rather Conservative maneuver.

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  28. Michael Anderson Avatar
    Michael Anderson

    Re MikeyMcD 417 pm –
    1. No, the parallels to 1930s Germany are not growing. Not even a little bit.
    2. Your paranoia is growing.
    3. No one is getting loaded into train cars in the USA anytime soon. Or the next century.
    4. The perception of a falling sky and whether or not someone pays bills is not correlative.

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  29. TheMikeyMcD Avatar
    TheMikeyMcD

    Michael,
    1-the class warfare card being played by our current president sure rhymes with the scapegoat card Hitler played with the Jews. Now they are aggressively pursuing a 2nd amendment cancellation! C’mon, an 8th grader with the i.q. of a pigeon can see the parallels. Course it is hard to question your deity. #bowdown
    2-I don’t think our military or peace officers will go along with a confiscation law so we have that going for us. #thereishope
    3- no, we already did that (Japanese Internment camps, excuse me relocation camps circa 1942) we would never repeat that. #eyeswideshut
    4- you are obviously not one of us who are paying to keep the lights on! #moochersdontgetit

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  30. Michael Anderson Avatar
    Michael Anderson

    Mikey,
    1. Two terms of Bush begets two terms of Obama. When will the whining stop?
    2. Excuse me? Here you are decrying the police state, and then you turn around and say that the guys with the guns won’t support democratically enacted legislation. Weird. All I know is that the run up to the coming legislation is a political battle, and creepy ol’ Wayne LaPierre with the old-man goo collecting at the corners of his mouth is not doing you guys any favors. Here are the gun control people on the other side, and they are ramping up a very effective message: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=64G5FfG2Xpg
    3. Non sequitur.
    4. I own a growing business and pays lots of bills! What the hell are you talking about?
    Michael A.

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  31. George Rebane Avatar

    PaulE 420pm – I believe the military retirees have earned their modicum retirement benefits by putting their asses on the line for us, giving up their civil liberties for the duration, and accepting lower wages without job security (recall RIFs). However, since their retirement compensation does come out of the general fund and not out of a self-funding account, they are still considered as takers in the net accounting. Someone now has to work for their monthly checks because the government already pissed away everything that could have been accrued to fund military retirements, as they did with everything that you and I paid in for SS, Medicare, etc.
    To that extent we are all takers. The bottom line is that we’re not paying in enough to fund what we are taking out – i.e. we are spending ourselves into bankruptcy; can you spell G-R-E-E-C-E?
    Taxing more will again reduce federal revenues. The only solution is growth which the socialists know nothing about promoting.

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  32. Tim B Avatar
    Tim B

    OK, OK! Let’s hear from say maybe, a realist! I’m no lefty or righty, but it really does not take a genius to realize the REAL problem is simple; we the people have elected the greediest, lying sacks of poop on the planet to run the Country. We did this! What did any of us think would happen when we give the keys to the kingdom to those who have been known, and praised as “successful”, or being the best liars, or most likely to rob their own mothers for a dollar? Greed has this Nation! Nothing new. The Real question here folks is, what are WE going to do? Continue to bitch? Or devise a real plan of action?

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  33. Ryan Mount Avatar

    Just keep your eyes on the bond markets. Even with the blatant and shameless Fed manipulation, this shell game can’t last forever; the Fed can’t continue to mop-up inflation ad infinitum.
    As soon as the rates start moving up and/or inflation finally arrives, then we can start talking about insolvency in real terms. (Of course the assholes are already warning us about the inevitable climbs, so they’ll probably just take credit for it.)
    But there is just no “there, there” [yet]. I think this is true due to Fed manipulation, but it’s also due to the fact that the rest of the globe is far more fiscally screwed up than we currently are. Sans, say maybe China, but they’re attached to our hip both in bonds and in both our supply and demand chains.
    In a nutshell, no one can afford for the USA to take any significant crap. But that may not matter what they want.

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  34. Gregory Avatar

    ” Please, call me a libertarian progressive if you want to be an accurate labeler.” M Anderson
    Mike, when will the libertarian come out to play? Only the “progressive” seems to be making posts.

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  35. Scott Obermuller Avatar

    A libertarian Progressive. I love that. That’s a sort of person that wants to do whatever they want and be able to tell everyone else what to do. Great title.
    As far as conservatives being all doom and gloom, you couldn’t be more wrong. We’re all quite happy. Just sorry to see the rest of the herd go into the crapper. There is a wonderful answer and way out of the mess. Start following the Constitution and let the good producers of this country do their thing. No – not everyone will “win”. Only the hard workers and the industrious. The rest will have to sit on their keesters in the mud until they want to get up and join the producers. Works every time it’s tried. But if you think that paying folks to sit idle and coining trillion dollar specie is the way, and you are in the majority (and it seems you are) then that’s the way we’ll go. It works pretty well until it doesn’t and then it doesn’t work at all. Ask a Greek.

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  36. TheMikeyMcD Avatar
    TheMikeyMcD

    Ryan Mount… keep ye eyes peeled on (Keynesian) Japan. Seen the Yen lately? A rise of 2% on their debt would bring them to their knees (same with us).
    I still can’t get used to throwing around the word TRILLION like it’s a nerf football.
    George, the progressives use the word “inflation” as a place holder for “growth.”
    Michael A obviously is not patriotic enough to pay his fair share of taxes (bills).

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  37. Paul Emery Avatar

    George 4:20 pm
    That can also be said of all government retirees without prejudice who have paid their dues and served their time. Also include those on Social Security and unemployment.

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  38. Paul Emery Avatar

    Scott
    I’m a Green Libertarian myself. Taking care of the earth should be the work of an enlightened culture and should not need government involvement. It’s only when that relationship fails that we have to resort to government action to protect essential resources such as air and water.

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  39. Michael Anderson Avatar
    Michael Anderson

    Scott wrote: “That’s a sort of person that wants to do whatever they want and be able to tell everyone else what to do.”
    It’s about nuance Scott, something that escapes self-righteous ideologues.
    Mikey wrote: “Michael A obviously is not patriotic enough to pay his fair share of taxes.”
    What are you claiming here Mikey? That I don’t pay my taxes? That I’m break the law? Help me out here, and then we’ll go from there.

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  40. Michael Anderson Avatar
    Michael Anderson

    Paul, on this blog, if you’re Green you’re a member of the Communist Party. And you’re a liar if you claim to have any libertarian leanings, it’s impossible to do both at once.
    The Chicken Littles here have been claiming that inflation was going to destroy America pretty much since the day Obama took the oath of office in January of 2008.
    I’m still waiting.

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  41. Ryan Mount Avatar

    if you’re Green you’re a member of the Communist Party
    I think that’s true. I’d say Paul is more of Left Libertarian. (sorry to categorize you Paul, I beg your pardon) But we can use the word “Green” in there as well. Take a Right Libertarian, which tends to be more Anarcho-Capitalist oriented, and substitute say locally organized labor or environmentalism (Anarcho-Syndacalism or Anarcho-Evironmentalism, to pick two factions lambasted in Monty Python), and you have Left Libertarians.
    Note: Left Libertarians are the toughest survival rates. Think Spanish Anarchists who had to get a unanimous vote before attacking Franco. At least the Right Libertarians, whom I consider argumentative yet kissing cousins to the Left variety, have a “crank” home in American politics. The Leftish brood simply drop out and live on the Ridge and bitch.
    However no one in these threads are as extreme as I’m laying out here.
    BTW, Michael. Mikey puts his money where his mouth is. Similar to you. You’re both small business owners whom I applaud and admire. I’m not sure about this “loading on trains” thing he proclaims (sorry to speak of Mikey in the third person), but I’m pretty sure his analysis on Fed manipulation is spot on. You betta bet that he’s watching the bond markets like a hawk in his line of business.

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  42. TheyMikeyMcD Avatar
    TheyMikeyMcD

    For the record I do not think we are minutes away from being ‘loaded on trains’ I was making the point that the singling out of a minority as a scapegoat, today, rhymes with the singling out of the Jews in the 1930’s. I am sure that more Germans (Jewish or otherwise) wish that they had squashed the hate based scapegoat before it was too late.
    Regarding Michael A’s tax payments (or lack thereof)… if someone is not bitching and moaning about US tax rates then they are not paying their ‘patriotic’ amount (i.e. ‘enough’). In 2011 I paid 52% of my taxable income to taxation (income tax, property, sales, car, etc combined). Too damn much given the lack of product/services I receive for such payments and more importantly from a moral standpoint the fact that more than half of society pays ZERO income tax.
    Though I believe we should be pleased that we don’t get the government we (taxpayers) pay for!
    sorry about typos…in a rush

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  43. George Rebane Avatar

    PaulE 1057pm – That most certainly CANNOT be said of anywhere near “all government retirees”. That is a perverse statement. It appears that you have not been paying attention to the causes of the fiscal crises which have hit governments at all levels. And this definitely is a barn I don’t want circle again here.

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  44. Scott Obermuller Avatar

    re Michael at 12:56 – “It’s about nuance Scott, something that escapes self-righteous ideologues.” Who is self-righteous, Michael? Names? Are your opinions also self-righteous? Or are you allowed to do what you will not allow others? A libertarian believes that govt power should be severely limited and not allowed to intrude into the daily lives of the citizen. A green or progressive believes the govt should intrude into every facet of our daily lives. They are the complete opposite. Paul E has put his finger on it precisely. “Gee – I’d love to really be a libertarian, but first you have to do as I say”. That’s exactly what a real libertarian does, Paul. They acknowledge that we have different views and ways of life. I can certainly make the case that legalizing many drugs for recreational use causes me harm by degrading the health and safety of the general population just as you can make the case that allowing me to live as I want degrades the air and water. I would strongly disagree with your view and you, mine. I’ll allow you lefties to live your life as you wish – you can all pay the govt as much as you want. I certainly won’t stand in your way. You can drive an electric car as far as the extension cord will let you. Just get your hand out of my pocket, thank you very much. And one more thing. An anarchist believes in no govt. The conservatives that post here want a Constitutional republic. A strong, but limited govt. That is hardly anarchy in any form. Although I don’t want to over step and miscategorize any one. I’d love to hear what the others consider them selves to be. I just think that trying to call yourself a green/progressive and then also trying to call yourself a libertarian is far beyond ‘nuance’ and becomes the laughable spectre of having one’s foot on the dock and the other foot firmly on the departing ship. Something has to give and right now, it’s your credibility.

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  45. Ryan Mount Avatar

    A green or progressive believes the govt should intrude into every facet of our daily lives.
    Not all Greens. That was my point above. However I will grant you that there are enough of the government (not communal) collectivist types to provide the perception that all Greens are like that. There are Greens that believe the government is the source of the environmental issues, enabling bad behavior. Here’s a good primer on it:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Green_libertarianism
    Think Classical Environmentalism like Emerson or his wife-covetous, hippie, cabin-living friend Thoreau. (Thoreau lusted after Emerson’s wife and the conventional wisdom is that Thoreau’s weekly dinners at Emerson’s home were just so he could stare at her. And get out of god-forsaken “cabin.”)
    I’ve spoken out here against crony Environmentalism led by the government. Specifically with land use and selective extermination practices on the Big Island of Hawaii.
    Progressives? I have nothing really positive to say about them and their ends justifies the means approach to just about everything.

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  46. Paul Emery Avatar

    Scott
    Let’s try this. Two people own property on different sides of a waterway that is used for drinking water for people downstream. One believes (Green Libertarian) it’s the right thing to do to not pee in or near the water and prevents government intrusion by voluntarily action, another doesn’t care and pee’s anyway saying it’s his right to do whatever he wants on his land. The people downstream cannot use the water because of it being polluted and organize to prevent the accused pe-er from dangling his worm in the river through laws and regulations to protect their essential interests. The true libertarian is the one who acts responsibly and in everyone’s common interest and prevents government intrusion. The other is the cause of intrusion by saying his rights are more important than the common good.
    To me it’s that kind of self serving behavior that causes big government to thrive and grow.
    This is pretty simplistic but give it a go. It’s the basis for what I call Green-Libertarianism.

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  47. Paul Emery Avatar

    George
    Are you saying that a retired military person is in a different category than a retired government worker? They both engaged in a contract of employment that promised retirement and benefits after working for x number of years. How do you draw the distinction and what is the remedy?

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  48. TheMikeyMcD Avatar
    TheMikeyMcD

    Jim Rickards ‏@JamesGRickards
    First the guns http://bit.ly/TNgkC2 . Then they come for the #gold http://bit.ly/SmGopn . The tempo of events does seem to be accelerating.

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  49. Scott Obermuller Avatar

    I think the first problem is that I’m talking about labels that you would use to define the type of govt you want. If you are truly a libertarian, then that is the type of govt you would want. Being ‘green’ then is a lifestyle you have chosen for yourself and will not impose on others. That is fine. A ‘green’ as a type of governance is, by definition, meddlesome in every type of activity of your life. Paul’s example is worthless because no one wants to pollute a stream with human waste and in any event the courts are able to handle the dispute. A green govt dictates how many windows I can put on the north side of my house, what kind of light bulb I can use and so forth. ‘Greens’ as a political force are akin to ‘progressives’ in their relentless desire to strip away civil liberties and freedoms. Let’s separate the labels for type of governance from the labels for personal lifestyles. You can be a green or a vegan or a pagan or whatever on your own time and your own dime and I’m fine with it. Hope that clears that up.

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  50. Ryan Mount Avatar

    OK. We do categorize to our peril.
    However as long as we are comfortable labeling the Right Libertarian’s belief in Capitalism and free markets as a lifestyle, I’m perfectly happy with your criticism. Because the Green Libertarian would argue that a sustainable, clean environment is as important, if not more as a free and transparent marketplace. And they see themselves as the advocates for that as the Right Libertarians are the advocates for the marketplace.
    A Green Libertarian isn’t interested in the force of Government only in terms of enforcing laws and contracts. Advocating new laws, especially ones that remove liberties from other people, is cause to kick the Libertarian part of the moniker out of the political tree house and into a more totalitarian (statist/socialist) category. Think Democrats and European Socialists.
    They’re a subset of Left Libertarians. We used to call them hippies and they tended/tend to come in a couple of notable flavors: communal and anarchist types. One of the things that tends to piss off Right Libertarian types is the activist Left Libertarian insistence on “social justice.” These social justice principles are largely secularized versions of religious (notably Christian) practices.
    In the USA, I take great issue with the current wave of middle class, iPhone social justice, because it’s hard to have sympathy for our overweight poor who watches Dr. Oz on their discounted Comcast Cable. But in other parts of the less privileged world, a Left Libertarian makes more sense. Here, not so much unless it influences the way our government and our institutions, corporate and otherwise, are marginalizing/damaging other countries’ populations. Think Chevron’s (Texaco/Texpet) arrogant actions and subsequent middle-finger in Ecuador.

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