Rebane's Ruminations
November 2012
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George Rebane

Let me start by inviting our progressive pals to post links to reports of rightwing instigated voter fraud because nationwide the left is off and running.  The latest comes from Las Vegas where the unions are stuffing ballot boxes, voting for the old and infirm, and hauling their own members off their jobs to cast supervised votes.  Meanwhile legions of loyal lefties surround polling places (at minimum distances?) to do some last minute campaigning.

SEIU and ACORN (renamed) are prominent in the ‘vote early and often’ efforts.  And one candidate running for the state senate was told that he couldn’t vote because he had already voted – that was news to him.  More here

But the interesting part is the Left’s continued denial that any voter fraud is taking place by citing the dearth of successful court cases dealing with voter fraud.  Most readers know that bringing an obvious voter fraud case to court is difficult and expensive.  And if you make it, the Left’s justice system will seek to prosecute you as likely as the fraudsters.  Besides, why should an individual care, voting is a commons, and no one feels personally aggrieved – the pain is diluted over all of us.  We all recall the Black Panther squad during the last election threatening with clubs all whites who dared to approach a polling place frequented by blacks.  The whole thing was caught on video, and our Sec 8 Attorney General threw the case out.


To demonstrate voter fraud from the Right, we hear the Left cite the requirements for voter ID as a return to the Jim Crow days.  To prove your bona fides as a legitimate voter is intimidation and fraud to the mind of progressives.  And citizens going to observe polling places and vote counting, as provided for by law, are accused of somehow intimidating only those voting for Democratic candidates and causes.  Go figure.

Unions have no problem telling their members how to vote.  But woe be it to any employer who informs their employees what on the ballot is in the best interest of their jobs.  The Left considers that intimidation, while the Right considers that a responsibility (duty?) that the employer should fulfill.  As a worker with a brain, you would want to know what your company/boss recommends.  Because we all vote through a secret ballot, there is only upside in receiving that kind of information.

The same charges are brought in the media against organizations (mostly conservative) that want to check the voter rolls for the dear departed and the long gone.  That again is somehow only supposed to deny the Left their vote count, and in that they happen to be right.  Locally the Tea Party is sending its members to observe the voting processes and to reinforce the ‘voter integrity project’.  For this it is pilloried by every lefty with online access.

On the obverse, we know the advice that the unions have given their members has caused massive amounts of unfunded liabilities and debt to be laid on to thousands of government jurisdictions, and in the private sector the transfer of jobs overseas due to the cost of labor here.  To understand this insanity, we all have to remember that the Left considers profit a dirty word whose garner demonstrates greed and serves no benefit to society.  Jobs should be created solely as an excuse to pay those who often can do little more than fog a mirror.  Governments at all levels have hired ‘those who can’t’ by the hundreds of thousands.  And come election time, that itself is a systemic kind of voter fraud that goes totally unnoticed.

[Addendum] Locally, I wonder what a complete count in Nevada County will reveal.  Barry Pruett has done a sampling of the oldest cohort of our voters and reports on it here, and The Union’s 1nov12 edition has also written an article (paywalled) on voter rolls that cites Pruett’s work.  Using his sample of 400 oldest people on the county’s voter rolls, Pruett found 31 or a rate of 7.75% of those registered voters had died during the last 10 years.  And apparently two of them had cast post-mortem ballots.  From this experience Pruett concluded that “we have potentially hundreds of deceased individuals on our voter rolls locally, and thousands of deceased individuals on our voter rolls statewide.”

[2nov12 update]  Like clockwork, the Left’s spokesmen from coast to coast arise to pooh-pooh any concern about voter fraud.  Even some local worthies can be found doing their duty here in the hustings (see comment stream below).  Tonight Fox News did an extended report on 2008 voter fraud just in one state (Ohio), and it was enough to explain away the modest efforts to contain voter fraud during this election.  In that state irregularities were legion, and ACORN was extremely active to the point where their lackeys were registering and voting so many times they lost count – one guy on camera said he registered 73 different times.  Obama, of course, carried the state.  We may recall that efforts to clean the vote four years ago also met with derision and charges of voter intimidation from the Left.

Today Democrats and Republicans there and elsewhere have joined forces to monitor polls and vote counting to make sure that 2008 doesn’t happen again.  And as I said, that was only one state.  Meanwhile the local lefties are again in chorus (lawful poll watchers are labeled “poll police”) denying the problem exists, and calling to question the sanity and/or the intent of people here who want to help assure that our county’s vote is proper.

Posted in , ,

84 responses to “Voter fraud getting into full swing? (updated 2nov12)”

  1. John Reifschneider Avatar
    John Reifschneider

    George
    Betty Lou and I meet you at a dinner with Steels. We have been traveling for the last two months and have talked with a number of people across 16 states about the election. The range of ages was from 15 to 90 years. The surprise to me was that none were strong supporter of either candidate. Two (oldest and youngest) did not like Romney because of the way he looks. A number of others were concerned about the women issues. None were concerned about the economy. Based on my observations the election will go to Obama, because most voters are not informed or are not taking time to find out what is real what is not.
    John

    Like

  2. Jeff Pelline Avatar
    Jeff Pelline

    With Mrs. George Rebane as a recent poll watcher in our little county to watch out for fraud, I’m confident we’re in safe hands, so we’ll going on vacation for a few days! I’ll be voting in person upon my return and confident that I will not participate in any fraud but hopeful that a poll watcher will not jump into the booth to “help me” vote.

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  3. Todd Juvinall Avatar

    I liked the exposure a voting machine got back east when a early voter hit the Romney button and ir came up Obama.

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  4. Barry Pruett Avatar

    Jeff: There a bunch of ladies that are going to be poll “observers” (poll watchers run the elections) on election day. Partcipation in the electoral process should be commended and applauded; apathy is what we should mock. Thank you Joann.

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  5. Barry Pruett Avatar

    On another note in Reno, and not to dissimilar from what is happening here, public union lawyers from California and elsewhere are actively intimidating poll observers. These public unions and their friends do not want observers at the polls. I wonder why? On election day, I will try to keep you informed of these goings on in Reno. I hope that we do not have similar intimidation of poll observers in Nevada County. I just do not know why people would intimidate those shedding their apathy…I am sure that commenters here can speculate as to the motives of those seeking to intimidate poll observers.

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  6. Jeff Pelline Avatar
    Jeff Pelline

    Barry,
    LOL. Your aggressive political activism is unjustified in a little burg like ours. Besides, I’d worry more about keeping the GOP poll “observers” awake in our county. The “talk of the town” is that one prominent GOP Central Committee member (a man) dozed off “on the job.” I’d recommend some coffee – or Red Bull. On the other hand, it does provide plenty of blogging fodder. I’ll be voting at the Vets Hall in Nevada City. I hope to see you there!

    Like

  7. JesusBetterman Avatar

    Actually the division of labor at the precinct level is as follows:
    “In Nevada County, behind every election there are hundreds of people who ensure a smooth and proper operation at the polling places. Their efforts play a vital part in making democracy work. Nevada County is seeking Election Officers in order to continue providing the more than 60,000 registered voters the opportunity to vote at neighborhood precincts throughout Nevada County.
    A Poll Worker is a trusted position that is ideal for anyone who would like to get a first-hand look at how our system works and provide neighbors their opportunity to vote. Many Poll Workers serve year after year for the experience of being an integral part of the election process. All registered voters are welcome to join our team.
    Poll Workers are classified as either Inspectors or Judges. Every precinct board is comprised of one Inspector and at least two Judges.
    Poll Worker Requirements
    Poll Workers should have the ability to follow detailed instructions accurately, stamina for a long work day, and the talent to deal with people tactfully and patiently. Poll Workers must be registered voters. If you feel you possess these qualities and would enjoy serving on a Precinct Board, please complete the Poll Worker Application and return it to the Nevada County Elections Office, 950 Maidu Ave, Nevada City, CA 95959.”
    http://www.mynevadacounty.com/nc/elections/Pages/How-do-I-become-a-poll-worker.aspx
    I will again, my eighth year, be a poll judge. We do not have a union and the pay rates prove it.

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  8. Barry Pruett Avatar

    Jeff: This man at the elections office that you reference could not sleep, because your friend, Greg Diaz, will not allow the observers to have chairs and makes them stand in an 18 inch square box. Sleeping under such circumstances would be quite difficult.
    I am going to say a prayer for you. Your anger and frustration as demonstrated by your personal attacks on Joann, me, and now some man at the elections office, are concerning.

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  9. Todd Juvinall Avatar
    Todd Juvinall

    Say a prayer for nutra systems for the purple fellow too.

    Like

  10. Jeff Pelline Avatar
    Jeff Pelline

    Barry,
    As I’ve said before, your aggressive political activism is unwarranted in a little burg like ours. It is becoming disturbing, not just distracting.

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  11. Barry Pruett Avatar

    Can you explain to us how requesting that our voter roll be accurate without deceased people being on the rolls for over ten years political activism? This important issue is a non-partisan issue – in fact it is an Amercian issue about which we should all be concerned. I think that your lack of ability to discuss this important local issue and your resorting to the art of personal attack (while not unexpected) is very telling.

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  12. Jeff Pelline Avatar
    Jeff Pelline

    Barry,
    You have a greater chance of being struck by lightning or attacked by a swarm of bees than you do falling victim to voter fraud. This is just another example of the aggressive political activism from the extreme right that has enveloped our nation – and sadly, our own small community. The vast majority of people are happy with the performance of our Elections Office, and this was supported in a Grand Jury report. You are barking up the wrong tree.

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  13. earlcrabb Avatar

    Elections in a small community are often decided by small margins. Consider that Bruce Conklin lost his bid for reelection by a handful of votes, or that Prop 8 passed by four votes. If Barry finds a few dead people on the rolls, what’s the problem? As far as poll observers go, you’d probably have a better turnout from male voters if they had pole dancers, although they’d be barking up the wrong pole. How about some impartial UN observers? Preferably, the Polish.

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  14. Steve Frisch Avatar
    Steve Frisch

    Personally, and having voted early already to avoid the red t-shirt clad “integrity police” at my local polling place, I am glad that Barry and Joanne are wasting their time on this effort rather than walking precincts in Washoe County. Keep up the good work. Spending time purging 10 dead people (who would not have voted or been voted by someone else anyway) from the Nevada County election rolls sound like a good use of time.

    Like

  15. Jeff Pelline Avatar
    Jeff Pelline

    Lots of young, thoughtful and energetic people from San Francisco are walking precincts in Washoe County as we speak to get out the vote, just as they did four years ago. They realize that this election is about much more than our “economy,” which, by the way, is improving. Those pesky “S.F. values” are at play again.

    Like

  16. Steve Frisch Avatar
    Steve Frisch

    I think that Barry should call in the pro’s to get some independent verification of the rampant voter fraud in our county….http://globalpublicsquare.blogs.cnn.com/2012/11/02/how-international-election-observers-rile-some-states/?utm_source=twitterfeed&utm_medium=twitter

    Like

  17. Todd Juvinall Avatar
    Todd Juvinall

    Barry and JoAnne, thanks for trying to keep our elections honest. Democrats are doing their best to cheat. Maybe Frisch voted early from home so he could go to the polls and check if any of those dead people were available for another yes for Obama?

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  18. Todd Juvinall Avatar
    Todd Juvinall

    Crabb, that was too funny! Poll dancers. What a hoot! Maybe I should get MA to attend one, he seems to be under represented!

    Like

  19. Russ Steele Avatar
    Russ Steele

    On voter fraud I subscribe to Ben Franklin’s “Ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure.” If those who would perpetuate fraud knows that someone is watching, there is a much greater probability that it will not happen. Once it is discovered, it calls in to question the whole election. Prevention is the better solution. I see Barry’s effort as that ounce of prevention, not excessive activism. Some of the worst case of voter fraud happened in small burgs were no one was watching.

    Like

  20. Barry Pruett Avatar

    Jeff: If 31 dead people of 400 sampled on our voter rolls (two of whom have recorded votes post-mortem) is not a big deal, you and Frisch would not be here personally attacking everyone. It is very telling that your liberal blog is ignoring this “scoop.”

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  21. Steve Frisch Avatar
    Steve Frisch

    Now, now Barry, where and how did I ‘personally’ attack you? And how does Jeff saying “With Mrs. George Rebane as a recent poll watcher in our little county to watch out for fraud, I’m confident we’re in safe hands,” constitute a ‘personal’ attack? I mean really, you guys have pretty thin skin.

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  22. Brad Croul Avatar
    Brad Croul

    So, we have a couple of local dead guys that rise from the grave every few years to vote. Are you confusing these voters with the “undecideds” who seem about as aware as our subterranean residents.
    Who, and what, do the dead vote for? What issues are most important to them? I imagine they are liberal and that they want the government to bring them back to life at taxpayer expense.
    But are you sure they voted? How can you tell? Did the dead happen to have one of our more common surnames like Smith or Jones? Could a “live” person on the voter rolls directly above or below the “dead” inadvertently signed on the wrong line?

    Like

  23. Steve Frisch Avatar
    Steve Frisch

    In an interesting twist of fate I can post this video link that simultaneously refutes part of Barry’s contention and refutes several popular myths at the same time:
    http://video.foxnews.com/v/1925206867001/93-year-old-wwii-vet-dies-after-casting-absentee-ballot/
    First, in the lead in story to the story of Frank Tanabe, is the story that in a malfunction with absentee ballots in Florida with 27,000 absentee ballots that will have to be transposed by hand (I wonder what the error rate is on that?) highlighting that the problems with the technologies we use to count ballots is a much larger problem that the fraud problems. As a matter of fact the incidence of voter fraud are actually pretty darn low:
    http://votingrights.news21.com/article/election-fraud/
    But then, in the Tanabe story itself, is an interesting tidbit–the incidence of the dead voting needs to be cross referenced with the timing of the county clerks or elections office getting notice of the voters death. Thus, if a voter casts an absentee ballot, and then dies, they will show up as a dead voter when one looks at it later, if the data is not cross referenced. I am wondering how we can expect clerk and elections officials to have the omnipotence that God has, and intuitively know when someone dies.
    Now if we could only make it legal for Zombies to vote…..I think the un-dead would be Republican likely voters!
    And finally, I get to dispel a myth….see I really do watch Fox News!

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  24. Barry Pruett Avatar

    You need to read the article.
    “Also out of the 31 deceased registered voters and according to Nevada County records, we found two of those 31 who actually voted after they died – one decedent (who died on November 19, 2005) voted twice by absentee (2008 primary & 2009 special election) and one decedent (who died on April 5, 2007) voted in person in the most recent primary election (2012).”
    Also, you referenced this state about the “timing of the county clerks or elections office getting notice of the voters death.” What I am stating is that the election official should be proactive – not sit on their duff and wait for someone to send notice of the voters death to them. If I can find the death records from my home computer while sitting on the couch, I would think that an election official (with the resources of the office) could do it too.
    So, I guess Steve also favors inaccurate voter rolls. You should be mocking apathy, not those who seek to create a better system.

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  25. Steve Frisch Avatar
    Steve Frisch

    I do not favor inaccurate voter roles…I favor the death record being used to purge the polls…I do not favor some hit squad from the clerk-recorder’s office going our proactively deciding whether people have died or not…that is just silly. The death record goes to the clerk, the clerk removes the person from the roles. You found two incidents where that did not happen and a vote was cast–that does not mean the vote was cast fraudulently it may have been mis-labeld, or as the clerk said a bar code error–out of the 400 oldest people in the list of 60,000 voters. What I don’t support is hiring an employee to peruse the death records to avoid a 1-30,000 incident of dead people voting.
    Oh, and I did read the entire article, which how I quickly surmised that this is nonsense. Busy work, nonsense. The Zombie’s may not be voting, but they sure are busy in your office!

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  26. Barry Pruett Avatar

    While I am certainly not shocked, I am sorry that you and I disagree Frisch. I do not think that is acceptable for any votes to be cast post-mortem. Further, I do not think that it is nonsense to demand our election offical to be proactive and assure an accurate voter roll. What I do think is that you lived in Chicago too long and find such voter rolls full of dead individuals acceptable. Have a nice weekend!

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  27. Walt Avatar

    And some wonder why the Democr…. uh,, er,, Liber….( nope) OH Ya.. Progressives got the ” vote early and often” tattooed to their hindquarters.
    Why did I see someone writing down names from head stones in one of the local cemeteries? And YES!!,, I did ask if they were signing up Dems to vote. I got my answer as they ran the other way.
    No,,, our local Progressives would never stoop to voter fraud. ( Yaaa,,, Right.)
    ONE buggered vote, is ONE too many.
    But back East messing with the vote is a time honored tradition.
    I did a google search of voter fraud convictions. May I suggest LIBS do the same.

    Like

  28. Michael Anderson Avatar
    Michael Anderson

    “Maybe I should get MA to attend one, he seems to be under represented!”
    Todd, this doesn’t even make any sense.
    Big truck, tiny tinky.

    Like

  29. Steve Frisch Avatar
    Steve Frisch

    I am not proposing that anyone support votes being cast post-mortem. I am saying that there is a system in place, and the cost of replacing that system with something else, and the impact of creating higher barriers to voting, is not worth the effort. lets be clear Barry, assuming we trust you, you found two miscast votes. Out of 60,000.
    And to imply that I support voter fraud ala’ old school Chicago politics because I hail from Chicago is as ridiculous as claiming you are a communist because you lived in Russia. While I was a child and a teen in Chicago (I moved to California at 19 but was pretty politically aware) my family was decidedly on the other side of this issue–true clean government advocates. You know the whole north side anti-Daley/Singer north side crew.

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  30. Walt Avatar

    There is a VARY simple fix Steve,, it’s called photo ID.
    From what I hear, you need that same thing to buy MMJ from a dispensary.
    To cash a welfare check too. So the “disenfranchisement” excuse doesn’t work.

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  31. Steve Frisch Avatar
    Steve Frisch

    Nonsense Walt…million of people do not have photo ID, do not need photo ID and should not have to get photo ID to vote. I have a better idea though, how about we just implant a chip in everyones head when they are born and we can track through their lives. we could even send them public service messages through their teeth. I mean really, a few short years ago the conservatives were complaining about social security numbers, now they want a DNA sample to vote.

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  32. LOL Avatar
    LOL

    San Francisco values LOL. L.O.frickin L.
    SF values means force some entrepreneur workin’ 80+hours/week to pay for my sex change and provide me with time to do my ‘art’.

    Like

  33. JesusBetterman Avatar

    So Walt, how about letting the elections office take pictures, mugshot style, two views, of every voter, and let the poll workers do an online comparison, with the person in front of them. At the same time the images could be scanned and be compared to known fugitives. Anything the matter with that? Where’s Woodsy, getting close to time for him to pay up.

    Like

  34. Steve Frisch Avatar
    Steve Frisch

    Yeah, whatever happened to Woodsy? Is he doing time?

    Like

  35. Michael Anderson Avatar
    Michael Anderson

    LOL appears to be suffering from a little bit too much Halloween. Time to blow out the pumpkin there buddy…

    Like

  36. Todd Juvinall Avatar
    Todd Juvinall

    Walt, I think these three libs are sweet on each other. You know, SF values!

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  37. Steve Frisch Avatar
    Steve Frisch

    Todd, putting the 13 year old back in adulthood!

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  38. George Rebane Avatar

    Gentlemen – I detect a departure from the discussion of issues.

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  39. JesusBetterman Avatar

    I have never heard of an 18 inch box. I will look for it Tuesday. Is it a box that moves with the person? Where’s Woodsy 2.0. Where’s the Zombie Detector that the Teapers will be using? Were the walking dead voters Dems or Repubs? Based on this county’s general demographics, how many people die out of 400 regardless. How many people bother to notify the government that a relative is deceased? Seems to me the whole voter roll cleaning process could be speeded up by cross checking with the deceased soc security number that Soc Sec published about a year late. Maybe we should insist on soc sec for voting? Why not? National ID already exists, it’s just privatized, and called, “The Credit Bureaus.” So, Walt, how about it? You want photo ID’s, what’s your take on the elections office having their own set?

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  40. Walt Avatar

    War on women,
    War on fuel,
    War on America,
    What are we to do?
    Fast and Furious,
    And Benghazi too.
    Several are dead,
    Because of you.
    Splitting the country,
    In more ways than one.
    You won’t be happy,
    Until you have won.
    Wasted tax dollars,
    Right down the drain.
    And you want more,
    You are inflicting such pain.
    On November the sixth,
    I will cast my vote.
    And I hope and pray,
    This is far as it goes.
    I am a proud veteran,
    Who went to Viet Nam.
    And I will not bury,
    My head in the sand.
    To “The Messiah” Obama,
    You must go.
    For the good of the country,
    God please make it so.
    John D. 10/1/2012 USN 71-77

    Like

  41. JesusBetterman Avatar

    Well Walt, do you believe in free will or not? If you do, then God does not interfere. Only YOU, can make a difference, by presenting the best arguments you can, to you fellow citizens. God is not going to “give or present” you a rape baby country. We make the country what it is. You want to base it on laissez faire, no holds bared, capitalistic model, more power to you, but most of your fellow citizens have their doubts about such a course. On Tuesday, the audience will have spoken, then the silly season Electoral College takes over.

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  42. Walt Avatar

    Keep the farce going about no need for ID’s.
    Forget ” motor voter”? How many states made it OK to give illegals drivers licences? And when they give those license, they give them a voter registration form. YES!! LIBS dreamed up this scam.
    There are laws on the books about NO welfare for illegals, but illegals receive it despite the law. ( vote buying at it’s finest.)
    ” millions don’t have ID” Really? just where do you come up with that? Some LIB think tank? If they have no need for one, what makes yo think they would give a rats behind about casting a vote in the first place?
    There are laws on the books in all 57 states ( according to OWE) that everyone is required to have a photo ID in one form or another.
    Funny thing about ID’s,, I must have TWO daughters now with the same name.
    The cops called looking for my kid. ( imagine my surprise when I got that call)
    They had busted some other girl that had stolen her ID card. Well, someone must have needed ID for something other than voting.
    What will LIBS do when they run out of ideas and scams to stack the voter deck to keep control?
    In the works of ” Tricky Dick”,, when he lost to JFK when the DEMS dug up grave yards to find people to vote. ” They stole it fair and square”.
    Our Progressives forget their own track record, AND history.
    BTW,, You miss the photo op of Owebama voting? He had to show ID!!!!
    How come he didn’t throw a fit like his voting block does? No martyrdom for “O”?

    Like

  43. Walt Avatar

    WOW!! Voter intimidation on a national scale. And you won’t see anyone on the Progressive side say one thing about it. except maybe,, ” It’s OK,,, he’s only a comedian. Give him a break.”
    Now if a Conservative had said a similar statement,( just change “Black to White”) and Holy Hell would rain down on the perpetrator of the comment.
    But since Billy is a Marxist Commie, he gets a pass as usual. ( LIB double standard rules apply here)
    Bill Maher on HBO’s Real Time Friday might have said one of the most disgraceful things uttered during the 2012 campaign season.
    “If you’re thinking about voting for Mitt Romney, I would like to make this one plea: black people know who you are and they will come after you”

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  44. JesusBetterman Avatar

    Walt should have enough brain cells to recognize a comedian in full sarcastic mode. I notice that Walt has gone into Greg Mode, no answers to questions he doesn’t want to answer, for reasons of conflicting internal belief systems.

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  45. JesusBetterman Avatar

    “Dr Strangelove” plowed the road for almost all comedians since, see CNN review, on right now. “You can’t fight in here, this is the War Room!”

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  46. Steve Frisch Avatar
    Steve Frisch

    Walt, besides the point that there are 50 states :), in states that do motor voter registration forms are made available (which only means they have to be displayed) for everyone who applies for registration, and all other state requirements apply, including citizenship, so it is no different than if you registered people at the post office or in front of the grocery store. I think most illegal aliens mail letters and buy food too.
    About 10% of voting age Americans do not have state issued photo ID’s. And contrary to your comment, most states do not require that one have photo ID as a condition of citizenship or presence in the state–they may require photo ID for some other purposes, but not just to BE (there are numerous court cases on this).
    It is not up to you to determine that if people don’t have ID they won’t want to vote–voting is a constitutionally protected right, to be exercised at will, not a “Walt” right to be given or taken. “If they have no need for one, what makes yo think they would give a rats behind about casting a vote in the first place?” In short, your authority stops at your hard hat.
    But you will never change your mind about anything, so what is the point?….oh, I know, it is for the other readers to see how illogical your points are!
    I think that what Jesus and I are getting at is that it is fundamentally hypocritical to claim to want to be protecting identity and privacy in the hundred other ways that property rights advocates like you do, then require the full monty to vote. You are doing it for purely political advantage.

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  47. Steve Frisch Avatar
    Steve Frisch

    Ah Jesus, that is one of my all time favorite comedy lines….

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  48. George Rebane Avatar

    JesusB 1040am – “…do you believe in free will or not? If you do, then God does not interfere.” Wonder what church, religion, philosophy, or form of logic supports connecting those dots? Or is that another product of progressive thought?

    Like

  49. JesusBetterman Avatar

    Does your God intend rape babies, George? That would be a God that does not believe in free will, if he is planning all the stuff, good and bad, that goes down. It would be one that argues in favor of predestination. Your goose is cooked before you are born.

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