Rebane's Ruminations
October 2011
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George Rebane

The one dimensional political spectrum is of great rhetorical convenience, but absolutely worthless when it comes to correctly summarizing the attributes of ideology that the so-called ‘Right’ is supposed hold dear (more here).  The light-minded view is that we start somewhere at the far Left where altruistic collectivism rules the roost under the various labels of communism, socialism, progressivism, and (latter day) liberalism – all various flavors of association that celebrate ‘the people’ over ‘the person’.

LibConservativeContinuing ‘rightward’, we migrate through a region of ideology inhabited by the ‘moderates’ or ‘the center’, or even the ‘undecideds’ whose ideological make-up is a wavering unknown.  From here we keep going until we start getting tinges of ‘the Right’, and press on until we finally arrive at the ‘far Right’.  When this expanse is outlined, using these or other similar words, one gets a lot of nods from people all of whom think they know the next level of definition.

The common view from the lamestream media is that both extremes are autocratic and bad – on one end people like Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot, and the other end with characters like Hitler, Mussolini, Franco, Pinochet.  This is a nonsensical view of the reality of the American Right under which people who call themselves conservatives, libertarians, free-marketers, and even conservetarians are lumped.  The nonsense is that if you fully applied the ideological tenets of these people, then you would return governance and society to what it was under the ‘Rightwing dictators’ listed above, or other knuckle-dragging versions of it.

This is utter bullcrap, for all the above rogue gallery and their lesser ilk were first and foremost collectivists who claimed to benefit “the people” (“der Volk”), and accomplish that through forging the person into a compliant ideal of the state.  The only difference these despots had was the advertized scope of their interests – national vs international.  This is the exact antithesis of the tenets that conservatives and libertarians hold dear, and are prepared to go to the ramparts to defend.


What it all comes down to is that the Left’s accepted attributes are described existentially through their actions (existing public policies, ongoing grassroots activism) and their own published words.  And then the semantic assault is continued in our press and public education, again by the Left, to impose definitions of and impute thoughts by the Right.  The result is the current political panoply that is defined solely by the Left, since they dominate in the press and public education.  This is the present state of public discourse that I claim is also nowhere better illustrated than in the comment streams of RR.

Examples of the above propositions are legion if we remember not to conflate Republicans and Democrats with Right and Left.  A partial collection of the divergent beliefs is –

•    The Left sees legislative productivity only in the amount of new laws, regulations, and taxes a government passes.  The Right measures legislative productivity by the absence of new laws or the prudent revision and rescinding of existing laws, regulations, and taxes.
•    The Left can put no limits on the size and scope of government; the Right attempts continually to limit both the size and scope of government.
•    The Left is totally blind to the decay of individual liberties and access to state resources (land, minerals, energy, timber, water, …) a la Agenda 21 (search RR); the Right sees, laments, and documents the continual proscribing of individual liberties and criminalizing of long-legal public behaviors.
•    The Right holds that the most good for the most people (Pareto optimality) is achieved through widespread entrepreneurial risk taking in a private sector operating with minimally regulated markets; the Left sees government as the arbiter and generator of zero-sum wealth through a maximally controlled and minimalist private sector.
•    The Left sees the individual ideally as a homogenized member of a regulated class; the Right looks at people as free individuals with varying abilities, traits, and circumstances who will necessarily sort themselves into a wide range of earners, consumers, and givers.
•    The Left can only assess ‘equal opportunity’ by equal outcome; the Right sees ‘equal opportunity’ in terms of an individual’s unfettered starting line, recognizing that each will bring different resources to that starting line and accepting that each will not finish equally.
•    The Right sees private charity as the major contributor to the needy and less fortunate, with the state providing a limited ‘safety net’; the Left sees the state (i.e. collective) as the responsible agent for providing for everyone equally, no matter how low the common denominator of universal service must then become.
•    The Left sees no danger in a global government (Agenda 21), instead, viewing it as the necessary structure of governance to bring peace and prosperity to the world; the Right abhors a single government on Earth, and sees in this the final, technology assisted destruction of Man’s finest aspirations and opportunities, the achievement of which would otherwise be promoted by a community of freely trading sovereign nation states.
•    In sum, the Left sees Man’s highest social achievement in progressing to centralized control through the installation of compassionate and wise elites who access centralized knowledge bases, all suitable for efficiently and effectively governing humankind; the Right sees this as resulting in a wasteland of devastation and misery, and for enlightened governance believes in imitating the evolutionary paradigms of nature based on widely distributed knowledge, control, and tight feedback in order to achieve Man’s highest goals (for which IMHO the operational objective or litmus question at this point in our history should be ‘How does this help us all go to the stars?’).

Given the above, here are the important exit questions –

1. What is “radical” or historically non-mainstream about these ideological tenets of the Right?

2. Why is it so hard to get people on the Left to answer or even address the substance question #1?

Posted in , ,

91 responses to “Right and Left – Right? Wrong!”

  1. Steve Enos Avatar
    Steve Enos

    Hey Barry… no name calling here! Stay on topic when you post please.
    The video of today’s BOS meeting will soon be availbale for all to see and it will live for ever!
    Barry asked the BOS to select the Chamber but Barry failed to know the Chamber withdrew and was cut because they wanted an additional 20K for additional work as in they wanted $37,000 or no deal.
    On top of that the Chamber failed to respond to the follow up questions asked by the County selection committee.
    It was a train wreck! Barry got handed his head on a plate by the County staff and a couple of the BOS members… as did the lady from “ROAR” that spoke.
    The comments by Supervisors Beason and Ownens just before the 5-0 vote was GREAT and it sent a message to the ultra right folks.
    I see where Stan Meckler is now running to be on the GV Chamber Board… funny stuff!

    Like

  2. Scott Obermuller Avatar

    Ben – you should stop and read what you have written before you post. “I’m sorry that you and your followers cannot understand without government programs that they profess to hate so much none of us would be where we are today.” I’m still laughing. Where I am today is beggared beyond belief with govt debt. Since I and my family and future progeny are producers, we will be the ones to try to pay back all of the graft and corruption and stupidity because of your cherished govt programs. Where would I be, you ask? Let’s try free of any debt – in a comfortable, lavish, paid for hand crafted home – with a bright safe future for my grandson and a healthy productive nation to live in. Oh, the horror! Let’s just start with the dept of education. It has been a cabinet level parasite since 1979 and since it’s inception, education in this nation has gone downhill. It didn’t do anything for me, sir, since it didn’t exist while I was in school. Yet somehow I obtained an education. It educates no one. Get rid of it. That isn’t radical in any meaning of the word, just common sense. We can certainly go through the fed govt and throw out huge buildings full of useless (or worse) bureaucrats. Where would I be? I can only dream of how good life could be if the useless un-Constitutional activities of our corrupt govt were ended.

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  3. Todd Juvinall Avatar
    Todd Juvinall

    Bravo Scott!

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  4. Bonnie M Avatar
    Bonnie M

    Someone sent me this 1948 cartoon you may have seen before. It pretty much sums up what we’re dealing with today. Amazing!
    http://nationaljuggernaut.blogspot.com/2009/09/this-cartoon-seemed-far-fetched-in-1948.html

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  5. Brad Croul Avatar
    Brad Croul

    I applaud your attempt to illustrate what you see as the differences between left and right but am afraid that the list comes off looking like a rightwinger’s attempt to pigeonhole the left wing. It sounds like you are trying to put round pegs, lubricated with “liberal” doses of prejudice, suspicion, fear, and loathing, into square holes, and they just don’t fit that well. Also, I don’t see how you can realistically separate the “Left” from Democrats and the “Right” from Republicans. I am assuming you are talking about politics and current events here.
    Take your first point, The Left sees legislative productivity only in the amount of new laws, regulations, and taxes a government passes.  The Right measures legislative productivity by the absence of new laws or the prudent revision and rescinding of existing laws, regulations, and taxes.”
    The first sentence, “The left sees…only”, suggests a, limited-thinking, “big government” macro view. But, “The Right measures”, suggests a scientific, high-minded approach” and sounds prejudicial. Both the Left and Right in government are feeding at the trough. I think both have a vested interest in keeping government big. I am pretty sure the Right has written a few laws and has kept plenty of laws that have outlived their usefulness on the books.
    Next,  “The Left can put no limits on the size and scope of government; the Right attempts continually to limit both the size and scope of government.”
    This sweeping generalization is flat-out BS and again shows prejudice and panders to the author’s base. The Left might promote more social programs that would take additional taxes to implement, and the Right can serve to put the brakes on too much spending. But there are plenty of examples of the Right increasing the size and scope of government and raising taxes.
    The answer to Q.1 for me is in your last statement about space travel. I don’t know how many in the mainstream Right are thinking, “How do I get off this planet?”, but I have seen a few bumper stickers imploring “Scotty” in the starship Enterprise to beam them up because this planet sucks.
    I wonder which form of governance would work better on your spaceship; a centralized government, or a bunch of soveriegn gangs competing for the limited resources on the spaceship? What if some enterprising libertarian decides to start up a meth lab onboard the ship, uses up all the Sudafed and screws up the air filtration system?
    I don’t think all the ideological tenets of the Right (as you have described them) are exclusive to “the Right”. I see that you are trying to differentiate the Left from the Right but you end up painting the Left into a corner so you can manage it. To me, it sounds like you are listing the “dangers” of taking big government, or world government, to the extremes. But, conversely, you can take the tenets of the Right, weaponize them, and do damage with them also.

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  6. Todd Juvinall Avatar
    Todd Juvinall

    Mr. Croul is apparently ignorant of the actual political world based on his naivete’ on who is and has been in charge for a long time. The left had control of Congress for forty straight years until 1995. My recollection is that during that time thousands of laws to create and control were passed and with those laws a huge diminution of individual rights. In California the left has had control of the legislature for even more time and look at the volumes of rules and regulations controlling almost every aspect of our lives. I see the left doing that and the right trying to undo that. If you pay attention to the Governor’s website here in California you will see at the end of this session a list of all the laws and regulations he signs or vetoes. If you look closely you will see a D or and R alongside the name of the sponsor from the legislature. Count them up and then when you see a ten to one D over R you might change your ignorance to smartness.

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  7. Ben Emery Avatar

    Scott,
    I strongly suggest you look at history and be honest on what social class you were born into, you would be a peasant unable to read this comment more than likely. But remember you still would be shackled with debt because kings would levy taxes on their subjects to pay for war. The more things change the more things stay the same. I will try to find some numbers of how much of the US national debt is principal plus interest on defense spending.

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  8. Todd Juvinall Avatar
    Todd Juvinall

    And the difference between a king and the government run by liberals is?

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  9. Brad Croul Avatar
    Brad Croul

    Maybe government tenure is like academic tenure where the motto is “publish or perish”. This might account for all the laws and regs being proposed. Legislators feel they have to do something besides make paper airplanes to fly around the hallowed halls of government – so they legislate.

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  10. Ben Emery Avatar

    George,
    You are making my point over and over but don’t use the same critical thinking towards your own views.
    I want complete communism about as much as you want complete feudalism. When we are forced into making broad statements these seems to be the final accusations. You do it and I do it. When we both know that we probably agree on way more than we disagree. I have worked hard my entire life and luckily have avoided really hard times so far and live my life on my own terms for the most part. You have worked hard your entire life and reaped the benefits. We are both success stories.
    So lets stop the hyperbole and gigantic leaps.

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  11. Todd Juvinall Avatar
    Todd Juvinall

    Well then it sounds like you should support Dan Logue’s legislation to return to a part time legislature.

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  12. Ben Emery Avatar

    Brad,
    Somewhere in the ball park of 90% of legislation is written by lobbyists and special interests today. Since I am critical of the right I know their groups and ALEC is a huge one. Maybe somebody can give me one on the left.
    http://alecexposed.org/wiki/ALEC_Exposed

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  13. Todd Juvinall Avatar
    Todd Juvinall

    The Socialist Party of America.

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  14. George Rebane Avatar

    BradC 416am – thank you for your willingness to address my post, and for your thoughtful answer.
    To begin, in this post I want to discuss the attributes of the common notions of Left and Right as they are independent of any established political parties. Yes, the Democrats also have people of the Right, and Republicans have people of the Left despite the obvious preponderance of these in each. Left/Right in the context here are intended as the broadly understood labels for two ideologies consisting of tenets, some of which may be shared (technically, these sets of tenets are ‘fuzzy sets’ q.v.).
    And since I am of the Right persuasion, let there be no doubt that my observations issue from and are colored by that ‘side’. I have little patience with naifs claiming objectivity in their interpretations and judgments, and don’t claim to join them in this dissertation.
    Re legislative productivity. My generalization hangs on the oft observed accusations of a ‘do nothing Congress’ or ‘do nothing Assembly’ etc that come only from people of the Left. California’s legislature is a poster child of this jaundiced view, and it is ONLY the Left that introduces a continuous stream of bills to inject government into the minutest and most ridiculously petty crevices of people’s lives. To argue that this trait is shared in any significant way by the Right is simply disingenuous.
    Re limiting the role of government. The misinterpretation here comes from your inability to separate the notions of Right/Left from Republican/Democrat. A fundamental tenet of the Right has always been to limit government. For example, it is ONLY from the Right that proposals to shut down the Depts of Education, Energy, Commerce, … are issued, retaining and aggregating select functions from each. BTW, we should never confuse ‘limited’ government with ‘small’ government – the attributes are orthogonal.
    So please understand that the intent here is to give some important broad yet operational outlines of the semantics that define the Right/Left ideologies. I maintain that they are operational in the sense that if applied by a grandstand full of people listening to some speaker of unknown (to the grandstand) Right/Left persuasion who recounts his own socio-political actions and pronouncements, the people in the grandstand, applying the outlined tenets, would overwhelmingly label the speaker correctly.
    Re ‘going to the stars’. My selection of this simple to comprehend criterion for evaluating, say, ideologies is for rating the competing types of creative, collective, and mutually beneficial societies such an enterprise would demand of humanity – there are, no doubt, other criteria that may equally serve. Homo sapiens boiling off this planet and out of our solar system to populate the galaxy is, perhaps, the grandest vision of accomplishment for our species. And this objective cannot be achieved without creativity, broad cooperation, coherent vision, enterprise, freedom, and the ability to generate enormous amounts of wealth by Earth’s peoples. So I have come to recommend this criterion as a measure of Man’s ideologies, structures of governance, social policies, … in the process of making trade-offs and decisions about collective actions – ‘how does this vs that better help us get to the stars?’
    Re ‘tenets exclusive to the Right’. Again, the attempt here is to explicate the semantics of an operational discriminant – to describe a semantic boundary that makes sense of our daily use of Right and Left. For if there is no or little difference in their tenets, then why give them distinct labels and use them so profusely in our daily communications and debate. I have assembled here some of the important tenets of such a discriminant from the perspective of the Right. Please notice that I do not characterize the Left’s tenets as being pejorative in any absolute sense; they simply form a diametrically opposing approach to organizing a society that its adherents (those of the Left) believe will benefit its members.
    However, a remarkable and longstanding aspect of discussions such as this is how often people of the Left do not want to shoulder the naked descriptions that identify and summarize the principles they want to impose through their public policies.
    So are we to take away from your remarks that the Left also holds to the tenets I have attributed to the Right? And does the Left of your experience then consider reprehensible, or at least rejectible, the tenets that I attribute to the Left? If so, I invite you to offer your own discriminant that allows us to correctly label someone as of the Left or Right.
    Again, thank you for your contribution in pushing this discussion forward.

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  15. Scott Obermuller Avatar

    Ben – I know enough history to realize the reason we don’t have a king is due to a bunch of right-wing radical Tea Party types. Openly carrying and using ‘military-type’ firearms. I’m not sure what class I was born into – I’ll have the butler ask mummsy for me. Seriously, when my wife was pregnant with our first child, we qualified for food stamps and goodness knows what other freebies. (all refused, thank you) Even though my wife and I had no college degrees, our daughter was reading at approximately the 3rd grade level by age 3. Part of the problem was we couldn’t afford a TV like the welfare class could. Said daughter got a college degree paid for by working at what ever jobs she could find and our help. When she graduated (with honors) there was no debt. It’s not what class you are born in, it’s the attitude you are brought up with. I was taught I was owed nothing and it was my responsibility to earn my own keep by making myself useful in some way to society. When our son was 19, he had dropped out of Sierra College and was making far more money than I did at that age, working as a telephone tech support for a music software company. He had learned all he knew about music and computers on his own.
    No, we are not brainiacs or have especially high IQs. We just get up in the morning grateful for what we have and are glad to have the energy to get to work learning and working. That’s the ‘class’ my family is in. The OWS street crowd is in a different class.
    Our daughter is married now, with a 2 year old son that she claims will never step foot inside of a public school. We’ll see….

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  16. Ben Emery Avatar

    Scott,
    You obviously don’t understand that throughout history and still with much of the worlds population today if you are born into a specific social class you will die in the same social class. America has one of the worst social mobilities in the industrialized nations today. The American Revolutionaries were progressives moving away from the traditional form of government and the status quo. Since you used reading as an example, when and where did reading for the masses come about? Did those in power support this idea or oppose it and why? Here is a hint; it has “Protest”, “Reform”, and Printing Press associated with it.

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  17. Ben Emery Avatar

    George,
    I read an interesting article with your name mentioned in it.
    This seems to fit into the Right – Left discussion of trying to get things done.
    http://yubanet.com/regional/Nevada-County-BOS-Process-1-Politics-0.php
    excerpt
    “Focus on the Person, Not the Issue
    The presence of Tea Party Patriots, local bloggers and assorted members of the public for this item was not really surprising. Pelline’s husband Jeff, a former newspaper editor, runs his personal blog – separate from their commercial Sierra FoodWineArt venture. Given the often contentious nature of the local blogosphere, a few of his fellow bloggers (Rebane, Steele and Pruett) were in attendance.
    Judi Caler, who introduced herself as a Nevada City resident and co-founder of Reclaiming Our American Rights(ROAR), proceeded to paint a scenario melding First 5 of Nevada County, Occupy Wall Street, the Constitution and the takeover by a “one-world government” as cause and effect of the contract. Referring to Shannon Pelline as “married to a well-known blogger, I wouldn’t appreciate my tax dollars used to promote his views.” She also reminded the BOS that “three of you are up for election and the people are watching.”
    Barry Pruett, an unsuccessful candidate for Clerk-Recorder, is a member of the Nevada County Tea Party Patriots, according to his blog. He chastised the board for not picking the Joint Chambers proposal over SFWA’s: “The Chamber of Commerce is uniquely positioned to promote – without bias – all of the areas of tourism within Nevada County and thereby create jobs in Nevada County.” He went on to describe the proposed action as “sending money down a ‘cul de sac”‘ with no clear long term plan and no vision,” referring to a lack of long-term planning. He said the Chambers’ bid was lower ($17,400) and wanted to know why the lowest bid wasn’t awarded the contract.
    County staff explained that the Chambers’ proposal had two components, one with a $20,000 Groupon module. When asked by staff if their proposal could be executed without the Groupon module, the Chambers decided to withdraw their proposal.
    The perceived conflict of interest for the supervisor sitting on First 5’s board, where Shannon Pelline is a part-time bookkeeper, was dismissed by County Counsel. The board of First 5 is a policy board. The bookkeeper works for the Executive Director, not the board.”

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  18. George Rebane Avatar

    BenE 922pm – “America has one of the worst social mobilities in the industrialized nations today.” Reality (especially as confirmed by IRS and Census records) is exactly the opposite, and is the reason why all of us came here while more are still willing to risk life and limb in making the attempt. I am a poster child of the error of such assertions, and I am joined by millions to whom America was a life’s blessing. Statements like these confirm that people like you don’t really understand this exceptional country, and make clear why you and your cohorts on the streets seek a fundamental transformation of this nation.
    But then, you claim the exact opposite.

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  19. Ben Emery Avatar

    George,
    TODAY not 50 years ago. Since Thatcher/ Reagan the UK/ US have fallen to the worst two OECD nations for social mobility. Italy ties the US for second worst. Income inequality is the worst in the US in these same nations, 14:1 in between top and bottom quintiles. If we venture into the top 1% or even the top .03% the numbers go off the chart. The republican party filibustered a bill to raise taxes 0.5% on income after the first million is made, this is the top .02%. My question is why did the democratic party wait until they new the bill wouldn’t pass before proposing it?

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  20. Steve Frisch Avatar
    Steve Frisch

    That’s right Ben, things were comparatively great in the good old days. Too ban many do not realize that those days began to wane about 40 years ago.

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  21. Todd Juvinall Avatar
    Todd Juvinall

    Income inequality? So George, could you explain to me and maybe there are some others, who are a bit confused about this claim of income inequality? If Americans have all the necessary consumer goods and a roof over their heads and are in the so-called lower income groups, how is that an inequality? I guess I see this argument from the BenE’s as one of envy. not of inequality. Does he want more money to do what? Buy a bigger screen TV or a BMW rather than a Toyota Camry? Please explain would ya?

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  22. George Rebane Avatar

    Income inequality is most commonly measured by the Gini Index. It is a metric that ranges from zero to one – i.e. representing a state of perfect equality at zero, to perfect inequality at one where one person gets all the income of an economy and all the others get zero. I have posted on this numerous times since the Gini is used by the UN and often quoted in the literature on the topic.
    http://rebaneruminations.typepad.com/rebanes_ruminations/2009/03/our-new-course-is-declared.html
    The problem with the Gini is that it, like the Laffer curve, is double valued. An economy with perfect equality produces almost nothing, and with total guaranteed inequality produces and equal amount. Somewhere in the middle there is a sweet spot or range. Today America’s Gini is 0.44 and China’s is 0.46, making its income distribution more unequal than ours. Nevertheless, it’s the Left that likes to point to the Gini to make its points, especially to the Gini indexes of the socialist Europeans that are now coming apart.

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  23. Todd Juvinall Avatar
    Todd Juvinall

    Thanks for that George but I think I didn’t make my question as clear as it needed to be. From my simple POV, if a person makes 50k and has all the consumer comforts, and another person has a million buck income and has the same creature comforts, then where is the “inequality”? Is it the “raw” dollars or the comforts derived?

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  24. George Rebane Avatar

    SteveF 1132pm – I had to rub my eyes and read it again – we agree on the sea change in this country that occurred about forty years ago??!! There must be some mistake in my understanding since most of my ilk also see the 1965-1970 era as a major course change for the nation. It would be interesting to compare the particulars.

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  25. George Rebane Avatar

    ToddJ 921am – Apologies. Good question. No, it’s the raw dollars that are the easiest discriminant of class. No matter the comforts, the socialist can always convince with ‘Something is wrong, why should he make so much more than you?’

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  26. Todd Juvinall Avatar
    Todd Juvinall

    George, that is what i thought. To me that explanation defeats the illogical of the disparity argument. The debate should not be raw dollars but comforts. Perhaps that argument needs to be changed.

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  27. Ben Emery Avatar

    Todd,
    “if a person makes 50k and has all the consumer comforts, and another person has a million buck income and has the same creature comforts, then where is the “inequality”? Is it the “raw” dollars or the comforts derived?”
    The point is that $50k doesn’t do it anymore with the spiking cost of higher education, housing, health care, and energy. The reason higher education is in there is because a high school diploma gets you a minimum wage jobs these days not a living wage labor job of 40 years ago.
    This article nails it.
    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/elizabeth-warren/america-without-a-middle_b_377829.html

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  28. Todd Juvinall Avatar
    Todd Juvinall

    BenE you misunderstand my question. The amounts could be any number, the point is is it raw dollars or the comforts that the inequality pushers are concerned about? If a person lives in a little house and loves it and he makes 50K a year, then where is the inequality? Should the person then change his attitude and become a grouser because someone has a bigger house? You simply don’t get it BenE because you are envious. I am finding out that humans who have lots of money and crappy personal health are envious of those that have less and have good health. How do you solve that inequality?

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  29. Ben Emery Avatar

    Todd,
    Literally, you have zero understanding of sociology. I will use one of your own comebacks against your last comment.
    ToddJ wants everybody to live in shacks with no electricity and running water. What a hoot.

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  30. Todd Juvinall Avatar
    Todd Juvinall

    BenE, you are apparently out of your league here. I have stymied you with my questions and examples and that is the best you can do? You need some additional education on problem solving and analogy.

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  31. Mikey McD Avatar

    Ben, your opinion was so far off I thought you were trying to be funny: “America has one of the worst social mobilities in the industrialized nations today. The American Revolutionaries were progressives moving away from the traditional form of government and the status quo.”
    Mobility- I am a modern day example (similar to George’s) that started off poor and am now ‘rich.’ More examples:http://the53.tumblr.com/
    Reduce government (regs/taxes/entitlements) and you will see even better mobility.
    To call American Revolutionaries progressive is like calling the sun dark.

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  32. Mikey McD Avatar

    Mobility: Do you suggest that increased government power via evermore regulations, taxes and handouts increases mobility?
    Mobility: I would not have risked every penny I had, worked 70+ hour weeks, incurred debt, sacrificed my health to succeed if I had believed that people would HATE me enough for them to forcefully take the fruits of my labor from me.
    The choice is clear: Force/slavery/government collusion OR liberty (voluntary actions/freedom)

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  33. Todd Juvinall Avatar
    Todd Juvinall

    Mikey, nice smackdown!

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  34. stevenfrisch Avatar
    stevenfrisch

    Hey Todd, I am wondering, is this a forum for discussion of serious issues, or is it an on-line version of the WWF? Frankly the “smack down” is just another form of masturbation.
    George I do think that the nation began going of track in the 1960’s. But I suspect we will disagree on the causes and contributing factors (with the caveat that a contributing factor is not necessarily a cause); with no single cause being enough individually to cause the change.
    I would include the following, without order of magnitude:
    The rise of global competition
    Concentration of capital
    Disinvestment in education as a hedge against competition
    Disinvestment in research and development
    Disinvestment in infrastructure, including technology, science and innovation based products
    Loss of confidence in our society to overcome its problems
    Deterioration of civil processes of decision-making
    The shrinking of the middle class
    The rise of independent de-centralized and 24 hour media
    Military interventionism coupled with the inability of our allies to invest in global security
    Debt
    Our inability to adapt “America exceptionalism” to a post national world–global competition is increasingly economic and we are competing militarily–this does not mean that we don’t need a strong military, it means we are out of balance in the allocation of resources to improve our competitive position.

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  35. George Rebane Avatar

    SteveF – thanks for the good list of causes. Re education; I think the only “disinvestment” that occurred was a pedagogical one and most certainly not a monetary one. Thanks to the unions, pedagogy went down and school funding went up. Re R&D; investment soared after 1965 and stayed there until 1973 when we pulled out of Vietnam. It again increased when Reagan came in and didn’t go down until the dotcom bust.
    I don’t know how you can argue that the middle class shrunk after 1965. Maybe we should agree on monetary class definitions here in RR so that we’re not talking past each other. No one else wants to do it. Your thoughts?
    Our allies were not able “to invest in global security” because their socialism was driving (and now has driven) them to the edge of bankruptcy while we were paying their security bills and acting as the global sheriff.
    As I have said many times in these pages – we are now beyond the tipping point, there is no return to the good times short of a survivable WW3, which IMHO does not exist. In its current form, America as an exceptional nation is beyond financial and demographic arrears. Stand by and rig for ram.

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  36. Todd Juvinall Avatar
    Todd Juvinall

    The rise of nanny government and leftist busybodies into all aspects of our lives is why the country has been experiencing the mess we are in. The tax policies by the democrats in my lifetime have forced the demise of the family. Liberals like Frisch’s SBC are sucking the life out of America. They drain the money and produce nothing but paper. We see that in every single project all across America. Money for studies,ad nauseum. We fee everything that is a part of govererments duties to its people. That drains billions from the pockets of mostly the poor. No Steve, it is WWF smackdown time now. It is the useless organizations like yours against the hardworking people and businesses of America that actually make things and supply the goods and service necessary to make a country work. We have to remove the leeches on the body politic, they are numerous and they have almost sucked all the life out of the place.

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  37. Steve Frisch Avatar
    Steve Frisch

    Todd I find it amusing that you are on a 1 man jihad against my organization yet fail to recognize that there are millions on NGO’s in the country exercising their free speech and contributing billions of dollars to America’s GDP. It really demonstrates just how limited you capacity really is. Our freedom to associate and speak is truly what makes America exceptional, yet you would only recognize that for those you agree with.

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  38. Barry Pruett Avatar

    Wait a second. Todd may be on a mission, but I do want to make a comment here. You said, “NGO’s contribute billions of dollars to America’s GDP.”
    I am not talking about SBC specifically but NGO’s in general when I ask “How does an NGO funded by taxpayer dollars contribute to GDP when the taxpayer dollars were first taken from a for-profit company?”
    It seems like a “net-net” to me.

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  39. Todd Juvinall Avatar
    Todd Juvinall

    Yes Barry, it appears the SBC is simply a recipient of money from people that actually do something and then turn around with that money and issue studies and papers accomplishing nothing of real value. The NGO’s are the biggest scam perpetrated on the good people and taxpayers of America. I am not on a jihad, (I find that an interesting statement by a person always railing for the people who actually practice jihad) I am simply trying to bring attention to the waste and abuse I see of the valuable taxpayers money. I believe we need to reign in the money and spend it on the poor, defense and other real needs of the people rather than in the bloated salaries of NGO’s that do nothing but issue paper. I am waiting for an accounting of who really paid for the trip to the communist countries taken by Mr. Freidsch recently. What is it the SBC and the American taxpayers gained from visiting and meeting with them? Any jobs for Americans? We will never get an answer because it is all a scam on the body of America.

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  40. Mikey McD Avatar

    NGO’s and GDP…This is the great central planners shell game… see how China has been playing this Central Planning = GDP shellgame…
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ektMQGbW3wk

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