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September 2011
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George Rebane

Mr Mike Thornton, former KVMR news director and current volunteer correspondent for the station, often reads and comments on these pages.  By all counts, Mike holds a firm and far left view of the world and its inhabitants.  He takes exception to being identified by any of the standard collectivist labels like ‘liberal’, ‘progressive’, ‘leftwinger’, and feels they are either too revealing or cast him in a pejorative light.  As a counter to that, Mike started referring to all other RR readers across the aisle from him as “regressives”, to which he clearly means to attach a pejorative connotation.

Since ‘regressive’ is not a common reference to people of a conservative mien (nor a noun in the English language), I took him to task on the use of the concocted label and deleted his comments that carried gratuitous uses of ‘regressive’.  I have also asked him to share with us his unique definition of ‘regressive’ in the sense he means it in these pages (and elsewhere?).  As a template, I invited him to expand on his definition as I have done for  my use of ‘raghead’ – a definition which apparently eludes him and others of his ideology.  Nevertheless, in the comment stream to ‘AtPac Lawsuit – still seeking closure’ Mike has graced us with the following bagatelle on the label.  I consider that this piece sheds light on an important perception which is doubtlessly shared by many across the land, and therefore needs a more prominent place on these pages.  In his own words.


I don't use "Regressive" as you use "Raghead".  I believe that the term "regressive" is an actual description of your political agenda and world view. You use "raghead" as a way to dehumanize and entire group of people, in order to make it easier to hate them and therefore kill them.

However, my interpretation is basically this: "Regressives" want the important decisions that govern life, society and the economy of this country (and the world) to be made by the wealthy. The government simply acts as their police force and army. Of course they want courts to settle disputes amongst themselves (largely about how to divvy up the spoils that they make off of or expropriate from the workers) The idea that workers or the poor should have equal access to them or education or anything else is simply a utopian ideal fostered by "Communists". They are "poor" and they are "workers" so how could they possibly have any idea what is good for society. Much of this is based in a Calvinist theological orientation which basically says that your lot in life is an expression of God's favor or lack of same. There are many books written on this subject George and they are authored and researched by folks that are way smarter than I am.

They get very deep into the psychology of the regressive mindset and how it's based in authoritarian family structure. The authoritarian family structure is based on "discipline" and "punishment" (I would also add the need for a perpetual "enemy/other" to fight against)A discipline and punishment model along with a Calvinist orientation make the idea of social equity and or social responsibility (much less programs)anathema to those that hold an authoritarian mindset. The structure of American society has moved too far away from the values that authoritarians are comfortable with and so they are fighting to take society back to a time they they think worked better.

My exit question on this exposition is – What label do the “folks that are way smarter than (you)” use instead of ‘regressives’ in their research?  And since these labels have become established terms of art in the literature, why are they not sufficient for Mike Thornton?

Posted in , , ,

163 responses to “Of Ragheads and Regressives”

  1. Steve Enos Avatar
    Steve Enos

    Looks like Glenn Beck and Mikey McD are on the same page.
    And “Raghead”…. it’s not only pejorative, it’s a racist term.

    Like

  2. Mike Thornton Avatar

    Please add: “Apocalyptic Rhetoric” to the standard regressive toolkit

    Like

  3. D. King Avatar
    D. King

    “Please add: “Apocalyptic Rhetoric” to the standard regressive toolkit”
    Yeah, OK, sure.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=PY-mboZkhD0

    Like

  4. Todd Juvinall Avatar
    Todd Juvinall

    I am also a in Mikey’s camp. He has adequately defined the MikeT, SteveE and F and PaulE ilk quite well. The battle is raging (in a political sense) about where the country is headed and it started with President Wilson. Before him the country was simple and opportunity abounded. Immigration was bringing in all kinds of folks and they all wanted to be Americans and live a better life. Then the nanny state began (Wilson’s socialist leanings). As soon as the income tax was in place, everything began to change. Now that little tax on a few has expanded to 25% of our GDP and along with it the power of the government to regulate every little thing. The power of the dollar wielded by the takers enablrtd is what has wrecked our country and why we on the right are trying to save it. It is worth saving. \The current mess was created by MikeT’s hero’s in Congress and some old progressive beliefs he has secured from Alinsky and Keynes among others. I would like to know who on the left, say, Maxine Waters, Barney Frank, John Kerry, Teddy Kennedy, which of these would be responsible for any pf the MikeT identified problems of today? My guess is none he only hates the right.

    Like

  5. Paul Emery Avatar
    Paul Emery

    So George and Todd
    What I want to see is an example of a post Colonial, imperialistic empire, country that has harnessed the ingredients to emulate the “prosperity and freedom” that you so admire when were were bloated with free resources and able to exploit workers with no restrictions such as child labor laws and workplace safety regulations let alone a reasonable working wage. Let’s bring back hydraulic mining while we’re at it, pesky government infringement on our free enterprise. Yes, let’s go back to pre 1910 when all was hunky dory and we had indentured slave labor from China build our railroads and sweat shops for children and 16 hour work days. Let’s regress to the good old days when Lake Erie would catch fire, when the Columbia River was choked with logging debris. Let’s eliminate nasty government interference on our freedom to die of disease before government requirements for clean water and air. Let’s go back to the days when we had license to give a reward for Indian scalps and we could march entire tribes of human beings from Oklahoma to Florida losing 60 % to disease and starvation so real estate speculators could open up new land for sale and development.
    Yes, thankfully we’ve come a long ways but that’s the way things were in the Golden Era before 1910 before unconstitutional government interference took away our freedom.
    Are we over regulated? Sure in many instances but reverting back to some golden era with little or no government is, well, regressive.

    Like

  6. Mike Thornton Avatar

    Thanks King.
    The Al Gore piece is great!! But hardly and example of “Apocalyptic Rhetoric”
    TJ Writes:
    “it started with President Wilson. Before him the country was simple and opportunity abounded.”
    This is clearly a statement coming from someone blinded by Euro-Centric White Privilege.
    Still confused about why the term “Regressive” is appropriate………
    Now this is known as attacking via “Straw Man”
    TJ Writes:
    “The current mess was created by MikeT’s hero’s in Congress and some old progressive beliefs he has secured from Alinsky and Keynes among others. I would like to know who on the left, say, Maxine Waters, Barney Frank, John Kerry, Teddy Kennedy, which of these would be responsible for any pf the MikeT identified problems of today? My guess is none he only hates the right.”
    (A) I don’t “hate” the right. I would never try to get into a hating contest with the likes of Todd, since he hates more than any 10 people I’ve ever known.
    (B) I have no hero’s in Congress. I do think Bernie Sanders is pretty cool, but I don’t see him as a hero.
    (C) I have repeatedly criticized Democrats and people on the left, when I’ve thought they were wrong. Sometimes I’ve been correct in my criticisms and sometimes not. In addition there are conservatives that I respect, even if I don’t agree with them. Unfortunately they have been ostracized from the Republican party by the likes of people such as Todd.
    Too bad!
    Unlike TJ, I’m not a rabid, ideologue. I just simply have beliefs and perspectives he doesn’t like, so he has to demonize me as he does with everyone and everything else that he fears and hates.

    Like

  7. D. King Avatar
    D. King

    “…labor from China build our railroads and sweat shops for children and 16 hour work days.”
    Really? LOL! I guess some things never change.

    Like

  8. Paul Emery Avatar
    Paul Emery

    That’s history D. King before “government regulations”

    Like

  9. Mike Thornton Avatar

    It’s kinda funny how easily people like Paul Emery and myself just knock the snot outta you guys. You’re lucky Steve Frisch and Ben Emery come here with one hand tied behind his backs!
    George, you definitely need a better “bench”!

    Like

  10. Kathy Jones Avatar
    Kathy Jones

    Paul,
    You need to take note that almost all the things you says about exploited workers are all taking places in the world that America supports/needs and takes loans from to try and stay afloat. It is big governments big daddy approach, that has caused jobs for the middle class to leave our shores. With this exodus goes takes away home pay checks and the tax flow into governments treasury.
    Has government interfered or helped the bottom line?
    It is the bottom line that makes all the difference. Businesses are not IN business to provide jobs, jobs are a RESULT of business. Business has a single purpose, to make money, PERIOD!
    When government, via greasing today’s unions, gets in the way of that single purpose of business, business WILL find a way to accomplish its goal… someplace(else)! We now see the result of the big daddy approach, America is suffering as a result. There is nothing government can do now to create jobs, they just need to get out of the way.

    Like

  11. Mikey McD Avatar
    Mikey McD

    The Thornton’s of the world wake up and hate. They sit around all day and hate. They hate until their head hits the pillow at night. They will forever see the productive members of society as meal tickets; enemy targets. Their hypocrisy knows no bounds. They claim to celebrate diversity while cramming equality/collectivism down the throats of their fellow man. They push equality until it is time to pay their bills (progressive tax system debate anyone?). They hate the producers who have made it possible for them to live better than the kings of yesteryear. They worship government despite the wars which they claim to despise, middle and lower class KILLING debt (Anyone see Greece in the news?), failures of The State’s Education, Dept of Energy, etc. They are anti-war unless it is waged under a democratic president or is waged against the producers (pay your taxes or else!). If regression means a return to personal liberty I gladly wear such a label. The semantics are assbackwards… a progressive destroys and a “regressive” restores.

    Like

  12. dkeachie Avatar
    dkeachie

    I’ll bet the cries of individual liberty will end with the first camper on BLM or forest service land near any of our TEA PATSYMPs here….
    George, when was the last time regressives voted FOR an education bill that increased taxes?

    Like

  13. D. King Avatar
    D. King

    “Thanks King.
    The Al Gore piece is great!! But hardly and example of “Apocalyptic Rhetoric””
    Sorry, let me fix that for ya!
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jzSuP_TMFtk
    There’s nothing like scaring the crap out of kids; right?
    Then there’s this little gem.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PXvpDoGrRGU
    Some people just can’t be scared anymore.
    Boo! 2012 is coming!

    Like

  14. Mike Thornton Avatar

    “Onward Wingnut Soldiers, Marching as to War, with the Book of Glen Beck, Going on Before”

    Like

  15. Kathy Jones Avatar
    Kathy Jones

    Why would anyone think more money will improve education?
    Some of the best education (defined by results), taking place in America today does not depend on tax dollars!

    Like

  16. Paul Emery Avatar
    Paul Emery

    Kathy
    I don’t disagree with you about your reasons for business to exist. That’s distorted however by the big government funded military industry that diverts trillions of our tax dollars building military stuff to support our useless and unconstitutional wars. That has nothing to do with capitalism and is in fact the opposite. When government through military adventurism creates a need and nurtures the conditions to support a justification for production then taxes the productive sector to fund itself it has nothing to do with building a better mousetrap at a lower price or providing essential goods and services. Not to say we don’t need a military but it’s way out of control and becomes a self fulfilling cycle through the billions spent by special interests and lobbying to elect supportive legislators.

    Like

  17. Kathy Jones Avatar
    Kathy Jones

    Paul,
    Why do you think “we the people”, for so long, have elected legislators who bend to special interest?
    To be honest with you, I would rather have people EMPLOYED by the military industry (“common defense” is charged in The Constitution) than those who just suck off of the productive.

    Like

  18. Russ Steele Avatar

    Mike,
    I have not seen any white flags of surrender, I think that you are assuming way too much. There are many more readers than there are participants in these verbal wars. We are gaining new voices, Kathy Jones being an example, and new readers. And, perhaps you have noted there are no new voices from the left, just same old tired echo of liberal talking points.
    A quick look at QuantCast shows that Rebane’s Ruminations traffic continues to grow and the number of page views per person has shown a huge jump, indicating that people are not just visiting the current page, but going back to read past posts as well as the current post.

    Like

  19. D. King Avatar
    D. King

    Paul Emery said:
    “That’s history D. King before “government regulations””
    That’s right now in your redistributive world.
    http://www.guardian.co.uk/law/2011/aug/27/disney-factory-sweatshop-suicide-claims
    You see Timmy, to redistribute wealth you must redistribute labor. That Chiner could use some them Gob-ment Reg-U-lations!
    BTW, that’s what the new patent laws will do; redistribute jobs.

    Like

  20. Todd Juvinall Avatar
    Todd Juvinall

    I am so happy to see these screeds by PaulE and MikeT because they show the readers what has happened to a human brain when it is sucked out and replaced with socialism.
    With the demeanor and attitude shown by MikeT, I would dare say he will be on the breadlines real soon.

    Like

  21. Paul Emery Avatar
    Paul Emery

    But Kathy “Common Defense” is not a justification for military spending gone mad and useless wars that cost trillions. We have military bases in over 100 countries including strategic bases from WWII.
    George
    Once again. Is the 3 trillion dollars we’ll on the war in Iraq money well spent?

    Like

  22. Paul Emery Avatar
    Paul Emery

    typo
    George
    Once again. Is the 3 trillion dollars spent on the war in Iraq money well spent?

    Like

  23. Steve Enos Avatar
    Steve Enos

    Yet again…
    Another off topic peresonal attack post by Todd above… review his “07 September 2011 at 02:30 PM” post.
    Hey George… you ever going to address Todd’s endless, off topic personal attacks?

    Like

  24. Paul Emery Avatar
    Paul Emery

    Todd
    Let me ask you as well.
    Was the 3 Trillion spent in Iraq money well spent.

    Like

  25. Barry Pruett Avatar

    Thornton: It os very revealing that you think that Bernie Sanders (the only true socialist in Congress) is “pretty cool.” Be that as it may, I have a wuestion for you and Keachie:
    Individual liberty gives me ability to create my own job. When government controls the channels of production (socialism), government impinges on my individual liberty and therefore impinges on my ability to create my own job…as well as my ability to create jobs for others as they move through society.
    Individual liberty is not purchased…it is free and provided to us by the Constitution. With indivdual liberty comes responsibility for one’s self. We are free to succeed or fail. My “brand of freedom” is making sure government is small in size and scope so that we can create. When the government does not pick winners and losers, everyone succeeds based on their own merits.
    Please tell me how individual liberty, the freedom to succeed or fail if you will, is a bad thing.
    Thus far, you have not convinced the readers herein.

    Like

  26. Steve Enos Avatar
    Steve Enos

    Mike T. didn’t say anything like “individual liberty, the freedom to succeed or fail if you will, is a bad thing”.
    It’s a BS question and a BS attept to define the other.
    It’s like asking Barry if he still beats his wife… it’s a straw question set up that is false.

    Like

  27. Mike Thornton Avatar

    Russ:
    The truth is that most progressives won’t waste their time coming here.
    I do it for the entertainment value.
    Using another boxing analogy, more often the fighter simply doesn’t know that it’s time to throw in the towel.
    We’ll have to see what Kathy brings to the table, but I’ll tell ya that I’d take Emery, Frisch and Emery over any five of the folks that have been pitching for your team here!
    I just looked at TJ’s last comment, so let’s make that any seven

    Like

  28. George Rebane Avatar

    PaulE re 232pm – first, please see Stratfor on this post
    http://rebaneruminations.typepad.com/rebanes_ruminations/2011/09/the-geopolitics-of-the-united-states.html
    Given our larger role as the world’s hegemon, ‘was the Iraq war fought wisely (e.g. costing $3T, etc)’ would draw a NO from all quarters of the political spectrum. But the answer to ‘was it necessary to contain Iraq and Iran in order for the world’s major oil supply on the Arabian peninsula to remain intact (we recall Iraq already had to be beaten back in 91)’ requires a more complex answer, and doesn’t lend itself to a reasoned discussion by current participants. But as your host, I’m obliged to give it a try.

    Like

  29. Barry Pruett Avatar

    So Enos…then individual liberty is a good thing then.

    Like

  30. Mike Thornton Avatar

    I(for one) would be happy to have a reasoned discussion about the Iraq/Iran situation and the war. We could start with your premise that “Iraq already had to be beaten back in 91”
    They had to be “beaten back” from what and why?

    Like

  31. Mike Thornton Avatar

    I’d like to know your reasons and analysis, George.
    I think you would agree that there are many areas of dispute regarding the justification for the UN Resolution.
    Frankly, I’m a bit surprised you would even cite a UN Resolution. Usually the UN is held in pretty low esteem around here….

    Like

  32. Barry Pruett Avatar

    Note to readers…Enos, Thornton, and Keachie will not express an opinion as to whether individual liberty is good or bad. Very revealing.

    Like

  33. Paul Emery Avatar
    Paul Emery

    George
    Americas role as the world’s hegemon is certainly a topic that freedom loving people like me would love to engage in. In this case I’ll likely …tarian you since I’m firmly influenced by Ron Paul. Either way I think it is an immoral position and financially one we can’t afford and historically has led to the ruin of any nation that tries to take it on.

    Like

  34. Todd Juvinall Avatar
    Todd Juvinall

    PaulE, where did you get three trillion for the Iraq war. My recollection is both Iraq and Afghanistan total about one trillion. Regarding the expenditure of American treasure. I supported the wars and so did most Americans. Many democrats, including Hillary Clinton made impassioned speeches in support of the resolution to use force. It was a bipartisan war. So, we have spent a lot of money and we have lost brave men and women killed and wounded. I say the war was America’s attempt to kill the terrorists over thre then over hwere. It worked for the renaider of Bush’s term and then they came back right after Obama was elected.
    MikeT is a big fan of the only socialist in the Senate. I think that is great. It shows us all what a loser he is supporting one nut at the exclusion of the rest. What a hoot!
    SteveE comes back to do his consistent whining and never addresses any post on its merits. I think he belongs on the lefty blogs (since he only complains about conservatives never about liberal slander) but he prefers to come here and cry and complain. The five posters on the lefty blog miss you SteveE. Go over there and complain about Stoos.

    Like

  35. Steve Enos Avatar
    Steve Enos

    Barry… your “Enos, Thornton, and Keachie will not express an opinion as to whether individual liberty is good or bad. Very revealing” post is BS!
    Barry you posted your question at 3:20 and I’m posting this answer at 3:57!… you need to back off and take a breath before making another personal attack Barry.
    You se Barry I work and I was on a con call with City staff for a development project I’m working on in San Juan Bautista and it took a few minutes to respond.
    I say a few minutes as it was 37 minutes from the time tyou asked YOUR quesiton to my response… chill for a bit before making another personal attack in the future Barry.
    Here’s my answer to Barry’s 3:20 question:
    I believe individual liberty is not “good”… I believe individual liberty is a “GREAT” thing!
    PS to Barry… as George and Russ know for a fact, I’m a big gun rights supporter!

    Like

  36. Paul Emery Avatar
    Paul Emery

    Todd
    http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/09/03/AR2010090302200.html
    “Writing in these pages in early 2008, we put the total cost to the United States of the Iraq war at $3 trillion. This price tag dwarfed previous estimates, including the Bush administration’s 2003 projections of a $50 billion to $60 billion war.
    But today, as the United States ends combat in Iraq, it appears that our $3 trillion estimate (which accounted for both government expenses and the war’s broader impact on the U.S. economy) was, if anything, too low. For example, the cost of diagnosing, treating and compensating disabled veterans has proved higher than we expected. ”
    Also here but you have to read it and add up the total costs including ongoing estimated support for veterans services and further aid for reconstruction if Iraq that may bump it to 3.5 T or more
    http://www.fas.org/sgp/crs/natsec/RL33110.pdf
    http://www.fas.org/sgp/crs/natsec/RL33110.pdf

    Like

  37. Todd Juvinall Avatar
    Todd Juvinall

    Paul, those are guesses. What are the actual costs?

    Like

  38. Mike Thornton Avatar

    I’d say, I pretty much agree with Enos. I would add however that great rights come with great responsibilities. They exist together and go hand in hand. Unfortunately there are some among us, who don’t know how to place nice and we need some kind of structure to keep them from exercising their “individual liberty” in a way that violates the “individual liberty” of others.
    It’s interesting how some of you always go for the overblown statement.
    I say “Bernie Sanders is kinda cool” and TJ comes back with the statement that I’m a “big fan”. He just made that up! This is why you guys are so easily discredited. You raise phoney controversies and make crap up.
    And on top of that it’s always the SOS!
    Try getting a little creative once in awhile.
    And notice once again that George had to step in and protect TJ again!
    Man you would think the guy is a little too old to have to have daddy cleaning up after him everyday

    Like

  39. Todd Juvinall Avatar
    Todd Juvinall

    Here is a link that does a ticker like the one for the national debt. It is at 1.2 trillion.
    http://costofwar.com/en/

    Like

  40. Todd Juvinall Avatar
    Todd Juvinall

    We all appreciate our liberty. It is always under attack from people politically and criminally. That is why we have elections and jails. It usually removes the bad guys.

    Like

  41. Paul Emery Avatar
    Paul Emery

    Todd
    Read the link and add up the numbers. The WP analysis is pretty reputable I believe. Other than that believe whatever you want.

    Like

  42. Mike Thornton Avatar

    “Hold on Elizabeth, I’m coming to see ya honey!”
    TJ just made a rational and intelligent (dare I say inclusive) statement without attacking someone or resulting to the use of tripe and hyperbole.
    Will wonders never cease!

    Like

  43. Kathy Jones Avatar
    Kathy Jones

    Paul,
    Just a thought, how many American jobs have been created due to Pentagon contracts?
    Would those people have been unemployed without those contracts?
    Income tax started in 1913 to pay for war expenses.
    While none of us know all the details or war/contracts, we do need this structure from the Pentagon. And yes, ALL parts of government SHOULD have the money before it is spent.

    Like

  44. Russ Steele Avatar

    Paul,
    I now see part of your problem, you think that the Washington Post is a credible source.

    Like

  45. Kathy Jones Avatar
    Kathy Jones

    George,
    I was reading a Lee Child’s book this afternoon, and the desert people who wear cloths over their heads were called “Towel Heads”, and I thought of you!
    Rag, towel, rug, cap, hat, etc., some people sure like to pick at gnats to subvert the discussion!

    Like

  46. George Rebane Avatar

    MikeT re 342pm – I cited the UN resolutions because these might be the most broadly accepted international voice that sanctioned Iraq and supported the use of force to expel it from Kuwait and put sufficient sanctions on its containment in its own borders. My overall geostrategic position re the US pretty well matches what STRATFOR has presented – there’s no reason for me to repeat it since it’s been posted here recently and several times before.
    However, the position of hegemon that America has had since 1945 is truly a conundrum. It has been continuously railed against by those of communist/socialist sympathies during the Cold War, and now that this ‘war’ is over the left has redoubled its assault on America’s strength and has been joined by the Ron Paul wing of the libertarians.
    I believe the benefits to the world of America’s role as sheriff are manifest and widely acknowledged in places like Europe, Japan, Taiwan, NZ, Australia, Canada, Mexico, and those double dealing sumbiches in the oil rich middle east. Don’t expect you to agree with any of this, but you asked my opinion.
    As PaulE knows, the ‘Rebane foreign policy’ would have us pull our force projections back to requiring no foreign bases, make explicit our national interests (none of that fairness and justice crap which no one believes anyway), and play a tit-for-tat policy (q.v.) which has been shown overwhelmingly to lead to good co-operation between such ‘players’. Please excuse the bare bones summary.

    Like

  47. Paul Emery Avatar
    Paul Emery

    Russ
    And how about the CRS report? Did you read it?

    Like

  48. dkeachie Avatar
    dkeachie

    “Some of the best education (defined by results), taking place in America today does not depend on tax dollars”
    Sure, in affluent homes where the college degree holding parents have enough time and money to continue their own kids ed. Unfortunately, unless those parents are willing to take in borders from the ghettos, it is not a plan that works for anything more than a small minority.
    Let’s see, when an American company opens a plant abroad, do they hand over the plans to a bunch of construction interns?
    Do they just show the workers a picture or two of what the finished product might look like, and then hope for the best?
    Seems to me they POUR money into the projects to make sure that everyone knows what they are doing. If the kids in USA classrooms had a clue about how business can help, when they choose to, they’d be hopping mad about the schools they are in.

    Like

  49. Todd Juvinall Avatar
    Todd Juvinall

    Here Paul, one more time.
    http://costofwar.com/en/

    Like

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