Rebane's Ruminations
July 2011
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George Rebane

“Norway's murders shouldn't be an excuse to shut down debate over multiculturalism and the failure of many Muslims to assimilate to Europe's cultural norms. British Prime Minister David Cameron and French President Nicolas Sarkozy have broken taboos by speaking sensibly on the subject. Democracies need to address their anxieties openly, rather than push the political debate underground where the likes of an Anders Breivik can let them stew into a rationale for violence.”  26jul11 WSJ

The recent terror in Norway is an event that again has altered our times.  But it is not yet clear that its dissection in the aftermath will serve to illuminate these times.  This is made amply clear in the various media venues that serve commentary and discussion.  The event most certainly has highlighted the radically different views held by various ideologically defined cohorts, and in the US it is another timber thrown into the fire that continues to consume the bonds holding the country together.

This is no more visible than on these very pages as documented in the comment stream for ‘Norway Terror’.  For the more attentive reader, it is obvious that much of the generated heat comes from the discussants not taking the time (or being able?) to understand that they are semantically imprecise and all over the map when presenting their views.  Semantically orthogonal aspects of the case are co-joined willy nilly and the discussion wanders in random circles, resolving nothing, including where people stand on the related ideas and issues.

In the hope that more commenters here are people of good will, people who want to use this venue to clarify, dispute, or confront each other’s ideas instead of continuing to play ad hominem ‘gotcha’, I offer the following (no doubt incomplete) list of semantically orthogonal notions about the Norway tragedy, and invite others to add to it their own discoveries as they meditate on the greater dimensions of this tragedy.

Then in no particular order, some semantically orthogonal (or independent) areas that come under the larger umbrella of ideas and notions arising from Norway’s terror are –

1. The right of a culture to endure and thrive in its homeland,
2. The right of a culture to spread trans-nationally through (assimilating, insular) settlements,
3. The historical impact of multi-culturalism (cultural mixing) on individual cultures,
4. The status and objectives of the current multi-nationally based Islamic jihad,
5. The status and objectives of non-Islamic needs for energy from Islamic lands,
6. The social impact of EU immigration policy,
7. Major themes in today’s European acceptance/confrontation with Muslim immigrants,
8. Norway’s immigration policy,
9. The behavior of Muslims in Norway,
10. The formal political structure of Norway (major, minor political parties and recognized nationalistic and trans-nationalistic movements),
11.  Norway’s sub-rosa political structure (secret organizations, terror cells, etc),
12.  The recent sentiments of ethnic Norwegians toward immigration in general,
13.  The recent sentiments of ethnic Norwegians toward its Muslim population,
14.  Legitimate and illegitimate means of opposing cultural dilution,
15.  The ideas in Breivik’s manifesto/compendium,
16.  Assessment of Breivik’s stated objectives,
17.  Assessment of Breivik’s means (the terror killings),
18.  Assessment of Breivik’s sanity and/or mental state,
19.  Impact of extra-national political movements and policies on Norway,
20.  The political future of Europe,
21.  The ethnic future of Europe,
22.  The future of western culture in Europe,
23.  What the Breivik massacre reveals about American politics,
24.  New and beneficial policies for Norway,
25.  New and beneficial policies for America.

If a discussant is unwilling to recognize how these notions stand on their own, then it should be his job to establish, identify, and defend any co-joinings in his arguments.  If a discussant doesn’t understand any of this, then it is better for all if he continues to study the matter and remains a passive reader of the debate until the ‘Aha!’ occurs.

Posted in , , ,

139 responses to “Discussing Norway and Breivik”

  1. Douglas Keachie Avatar

    Classic example of “compartmentalized thinking,” Psych 101A.
    ” In this pile I have this, and in that pile I have that, and I recognize virtually no connections between the piles unless I have my nose thoroughly rubbed in them, and I am loath to recognize the possibility of yet more and different piles, etc.”
    He who structures the intellectual framework always wins, at least in his own mind.

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  2. George Rebane Avatar

    Thank you again DougK. One of the great triumphs of western intellectual history is analysis of the observed into useful and distinct components from which subsequent things/ideas could then be endlessly synthesized. Primitive cultures and minds are cursed with their inability to perform these functions nor benefit from their application.
    The “compartmentalized thinking” you seem to decry is a liability, not when you are able identify (here semantically orthogonal) “compartments”, but only when you are not able to recognize such domains and travel at will across the rich landscapes into which they endlessly assemble. Pity.

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  3. Scott Obermuller Avatar

    Hey Douglas – Who are you quoting? Or have you once again failed to understand George’s post and you are wandering off? I didn’t see anything that said there was no connection – just that we can examine each subject on it’s own and deal with them separately or together as we find a common thread.

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  4. Dixon Cruickshank Avatar
    Dixon Cruickshank

    Of 25 thought provoking statements you go off on some unknown un- understandable tangient – amazing

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  5. Douglas Keachie Avatar

    Just like to see slightly more global thinking, economics wise. How is the Norway working person’s life and future similar and different from the USA working person, for example? Need no pity, and if you must smirk, please share it with a mirror…You might learn something.

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  6. Scott Obermuller Avatar

    George – I think we just lost Douglas. The hemp must be extra fine tonight.

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  7. Greg Goodknight Avatar
    Greg Goodknight

    you can’t lose what never was.

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  8. stevenfrisch Avatar
    stevenfrisch

    How nice of George to continue the grim work of Anders Behring Breivik by asking the questions Anders would have put to the West in a courtroom had he had the chance yesterday. It is hard for me to tell where one Nordic ‘visionary’ ends and the other begins.
    George opening with this quote from the Wall Street Journal’s discredited editorial page really says it all: “Norway’s murders shouldn’t be an excuse to shut down debate over multiculturalism….”
    Well, George, who is trying to shut down debate over anything? No one has said the issue should not be discussed. By raising this red herring, the implication that people are trying to squelch debate over multi-culturalism, you are already distorting the issue, and framing it as though those that oppose multiculturalism are victims. Your crew of sycophantic followers may fall for that but do you really think that thinking people are that simple?
    Let us go a little deeper. Since when does a “right of a culture to endure and thrive in its homeland” exist?
    Human history has been one of migration of peoples from the savannah of east Africa to the poles (unless you believe we were pulled from Adams rib 6000 years ago).
    I have no right for my culture to endure; my culture endures because I engage in it, I create, I celebrate, I advance. And what culture would we want to endure? Should we freeze culture at a specific date (like 1938) and hold it there, against the strains and stresses of migration, economies, and modernity? Just what culture are we having endure? Isn’t it the nature of a culture to evolve? If not it would get pretty damn boring watching Gotterdammerung over and over again.
    The very premise is absurd.
    Please read the above list of questions and ask yourself the question, “who is speaking here, is it George or is it Anders?”
    Not only is this list of questions absurd, the logical progression of the questions leads to the ending salvo: “what is the ethnic future of Europe?, what is the future of western culture in Europe?, what does the Breivik massacre reveal about American politics?, what are the new and beneficial policies for America?”
    I’ll tell you what it tells me; it tells me that insulated, ideological, white supremacists like you should never be allowed to gain power in America.
    I mean what kind of bullsh&t manipulation of a tragedy is this George? You think that a guy kills 80 people and you can use the event to to advance the idea that Americans should protect their “culture” by thinking about “new and beneficial policies”?
    I think you are still an Estonian, or Lithuanian, or Latvian, or Teutonic knight, or whatever the hell you were as a Jugend.
    I prefer the response of Norway’s Prime Minsiter. “”It’s absolutely possible to have an open, democratic, inclusive society, and at the same time have security measures and not be naive,” he said.
    The response to terror is not more terror: the response to terror is more democracy.
    (Feel free to question my ability to read, or think critically, or belittle my former career as a chef, or my origins, or my right to speak as a someone who works for a non-profit, or use your twisted propaganda to imply that only your nordic brain is capable of fully understanding just what anyone is saying as you usually do with anyone who makes a valid point that counters your ethnocentrism).

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  9. Steve Enos Avatar
    Steve Enos

    Under Geroge’s first story on this tragic event George ranted:
    “The little minds, that try to equate Islam to Christianity in its power to inspire action, have no understanding of what the west faces as its ramparts are breached. Let me put it directly – politically correct socialist slogans will not save what we have built, and what so many of us still cherish about western civilization”.
    Seems George has only 1,499 pages more to write to match Anders Behring Breivik 1,500 page rant. Georges’s rant above is an almost exact match to Anders Behring Breivik rantings.

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  10. George Rebane Avatar

    SteveF’s extended response is not unexpected, and unfortunately typical of the collective left. There is no desire to discuss these points, but only to attack anyone who would even put them on the table for discussion. That further corroborates their importance to the west, because in their restatement each of them has been and continues to be discussed (especially in the west) for other cultures whose members do not hesitate to engage in stating their preferences and values.
    This has nowhere been more highlighted than in the public prounouncements of European political leaders, and in the world’s leading press which is constantly “discredited” by the hard left. We can be sure that all of the above notions that I have listed, and more, have and are being discussed in Europe by serious and educated people of all political colorations and also at the highest levels. In their partisan caucuses they may come to widely different conclusions, but simplistic dismissals of these topics are not on their agendas.
    From my experience the progressives fear such open discussion because they do not see any reasonable thread there that will support their worldview. I’m not sure that they are correct in this, but it would take an open and frank discussion of the ideas to establish that.
    The tenor of the SteveF response also underlines the crux of our polarization. The most recent to this this was commenter Greg Goodnight’s observation that those on the left think those on the right are evil, while those on the right think that those on the left are just wrong. The above screed is just another instance of that.

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  11. stevenfrisch Avatar
    stevenfrisch

    The very premise of the questions is propaganda. We in the center are always ready to discuss ideas, we just reject your framing of the issues in fear based, religiously bigoted, and moralistic tones. I don’t think you, or any one here, is evil: I merely think you are all ignorant, sad and frustrated by your declining status as paragons of white Christian virtue.

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  12. Douglas Keachie Avatar

    If you research it carefully, you’ll discover the Celtic culture got its start down around the northern borders of the Black Sea, and, through time, they transmorgified themselves across Europe and up into the Emerald Isles.
    Shall we all return to Chaucerian English, as we have progressed little in religious thinking?
    And therfore, of his wise purveiaunce,
    He hath so wel biset his ordinaunce
    That speces of thynges and progressiouns
    Shullen enduren by successiouns,
    And nat eterne, withouten any lye. (1.3011-15)
    [And so our God, from wisdom and foresight divine,
    Has carefully established every line,
    Allowing different species living on earth
    To endure by succession only; first comes birth,
    Then death. Life on earth is never eternal.] (2140-44)
    This passage is a reworking in verse–a translation in a broader sense–of what Chaucer had already put into English prose in his translation of Boethius’s Consolation, which he called Boece. It is also a translation in the sense that Chaucer took it from the speeches of Lady Philosophy in the Consolation, who tries to reconcile the Christian Boethius to his misfortune, and gave it to a pagan ruler who is urging his small circle of intimates to accept an inexplicable death and get on with their lives.
    Chaucer’s assimilation of Boethius is testimony to his engagement with certain central issues in Christian thought of the Middle Ages. First of all, if God is good, why is there so much suffering and evil in the world? Second, if God is omniscient, he must know what is to come, and if he knows the future, it is there anything we can do to change it? And if we are predestined to enact what is divinely known, how can we have free will? Boethius answers the first question by saying that evil and pain in the world are real to us only because we seek happiness in the wrong forms, that is, in worldly things such as goods, fame, and family. If we seek happiness rightly, in God alone, then we can transcend earthly hardships. To the question about God’s foreknowledge and man’s free will, Boethius responds that, since God is outside of time, his knowledge is not truly about the future. The past, present, and future of human beings are all one to God, who thus does not “foresee” or predetermine human actions. Furthermore, man’s passions are what make him subject to the chain of inevitable cause and effect. Once a man rises above his passions by loving God, his will is free. Although Boethius seems to endorse a dualistic view that despises worldly things in favor of the divine, at times he suggests the possibility of reconciling the two realms, as in the joy he takes in “the fayre chaine of love” (quoted above in Chaucer’s adaptation for The Knight’s Tale) that orders all earthly things. Chaucer was heavily influenced by Boethius’s dualism, but he was sometimes attracted by the possibility of synthesizing the two extremes (Brewer 92-93).

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  13. Steve Frisch Avatar
    Steve Frisch

    I think the most interesting thing about your blog George is that you talk like an intellectual but think like a Stormtrooper. It’s what keeps the rational thinkers coming back again and again. They are like NASCAR fans waiting for Götterdämmerung.

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  14. Todd Juvinall Avatar
    Todd Juvinall

    George, SteveF is a plain old leftwingnut hypocrite. He has yet to list the ethnicity of his freeloading tax ripoff SBC and yet calls others racist. Just a plain vanilla old lefty loser. He sure can bloviate though.
    What also strikes me as funny is his dislike of those that served. He never served apparently yet he has an opinion on those that did. The true liberal. Stalin would be proud of his progeny.

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  15. Douglas Keachie Avatar

    We really need a “ThumbsUp/Down” indicator for the comments here. Steve scores again!
    BTW you do all understand that exercising the brain is the best way to avoid losing it, and thus we all have a common interest in debating here, as the quality of thought and expression, if not the content, is well above The Union, which is blundering along with moderated and banned commenting and commentors. I fall into the latter category.

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  16. Steve Frisch Avatar
    Steve Frisch

    You can’t hide bigotry behind a uniform and call it patriotism.

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  17. Todd Juvinall Avatar
    Todd Juvinall

    No bigots here SteveF. You?

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  18. Steve Frisch Avatar
    Steve Frisch

    What I am saying, quite clearly, Todd, is that service to our country does not give one a pass for being a bigot. For you to imply that, which you do when you bring it up, is evidence of your fundamental inability to understand our societal and historic values.
    I have heard about people with average IQ”s but honestly did not think until now about how dull being average really must be for you.

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  19. George Rebane Avatar

    Wow! Another volley of mudballs through the other’s rigging.
    DougK – loved your 925am comment. There’s a lot more to be said about cultural and ethnic migrations, and most certainly about the conundra you list about God. Perhaps we can do that under another piece that is in the works – working title ‘Does God Watch Paint Dry?’
    My own ethnic heritage goes back to Mongolia. Estonians, Finns, and (believe it or not) Hungarians are classed as Finno-Ugrics, and our languages of similar construct are the three Finno-Ugric languages of Europe, they have no Indo-European roots. In their trek from Asia, these people left colonies in the Urals where today there still exist isolated valleys of villages in which the mother-tongue is old Estonian.
    The cultural and ethnic dynamic is intersting indeed. My own belief is that we derive most from different cultures when they are allowed to flower and express themselves in an evolutionary process that supports behaviors becoming mature enough to be tested over some useful interval of time. Forced rapid change in cultures destroys the ability for such expression and evaluation. In such processes no attributable or enduring literature, art, or science is created, and it’s hard to tell what worked or didn’t so that in our own culture we may condemn or copy it, and thereby evolve accordingly.

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  20. Scott Obermuller Avatar

    Got to love the libs here. George puts forth some points of discussion and right off the tolerant left starts telling him these are not acceptable points. I notice the 2 worst things they can compare you to are stormtroopers and NASCAR fans. It might (or not) interest the left, but those NASCAR fans are a big part of why we have the freedoms we enjoy in this country. No bigotry here, no siree! The left is all about lumping you into a group and assigning a moral value to said group.
    “I don’t think you, or any one here, is evil: I merely think you are all ignorant, sad and frustrated by your declining status as paragons of white Christian virtue.”
    No, StevenF – My status has nothing to do with anything being discussed here. I don’t care a fig about what a person’s skin color is. This is about history and value systems and the basic premise of Christianity. There is nothing in the teachings of Christ about slaughtering humans or using violence to advance the cause of Christianity. Islam is about violence and in fact Mohammed did wage warfare to spread his religion. There are almost no Islamic countries today where any other religion is tolerated in any form, whereas in countries that are traditionally Christian or have Christian backgrounds, Islam and other religions are welcomed and can be openly practised. Free inquiry and personal responsibility are some of the other main points of what we on the conservative side see as being threatened by the rise of the modern left and their strange tolerance of the ideas of a religion that is not tolerant towards them. No one here on this blog from the conservative side has advocated violence to advance our thoughts or ideas.

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  21. Todd Juvinall Avatar
    Todd Juvinall

    SteveF enjoys the freedoms to spew his hate because people like George fought in the military to protect those rights. SteveF would actually probably survive in a Islamic country because he would sell out and grasp their religion to survive (no beliefs except self). He has no basic patriotic beliefs that I can see. The left is always brave when they know people are taking the bullets for them. Then when things get a little risky they cry and run. I think SteveF said on a post somewhere else that the military was filled with people of average or less intelligence than the general population. I bet he will run under the khaki’s of the female soldiers to save himself.

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  22. stevenfrisch Avatar
    stevenfrisch

    I think Scott just about laid it out: this is a Crusade against Islam, by people who know nothing about the beauty of the culture, diversity of the faith, accomplishment of its members, or potential for its future.
    This is the very definition of religious bigotry.
    Fortunately, as an atheist, I do not need to suffer from the dark side of hatred inherent in the institutions that enforce these faiths, and can internalize the beauty of knowing them all.

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  23. JimS Avatar
    JimS

    His lush mane shimmered in the wind
    He serenely watched over his pride
    Crushing jaws gripped his neck ’til stilled
    The cubs were eaten
    The fecund pride sauntered down to the watering hole

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  24. Douglas Keachie Avatar

    SObermuller, I think you misread the following:
    “It’s what keeps the rational thinkers coming back again and again. They are like NASCAR fans waiting for Götterdämmerung.”
    The lefties are the rational thinkers being referred to.
    You might want to know:
    Definition of GÖTTERDÄMMERUNG
    a collapse (as of a society or regime) marked by catastrophic violence and disorder; broadly : downfall
    Examples of GÖTTERDÄMMERUNG

    Origin of GÖTTERDÄMMERUNG
    German, literally, twilight of the gods, from Götter (plural of Gott god) + Dämmerung twilight
    First Known Use: 1909
    GRebane, always happy to discuss the meaning of existence, and the improbability factors involved.

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  25. stevenfrisch Avatar
    stevenfrisch

    Doug, thanks for teaching Scott a little western culture. They know it so well.

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  26. Todd Juvinall Avatar
    Todd Juvinall

    Atheists believe in nothing of beauty, only darkness.

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  27. Todd Juvinall Avatar
    Todd Juvinall

    h, still no responses from the lftwingers here, only bloviating.

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  28. Douglas Keachie Avatar

    @JimS:
    “They say at full-mast he steals a woman’s mind from her body. Claims her soul.” The Queen dropped fringed lashes to shield eyes alight with the iridescent fire of mischievous intent. How easily my men are provoked!
    The man rolled his eyes and disdain etched his arrogant profile. He crossed his legs at the ankles and gazed out across the sea.
    But the Queen wasn’t fooled. The man at her feet was vainglorious, and not as impervious to her provocation as he feigned.
    “Quit baiting him, my Queen,” King Finnbheara admonished. “You know how the fool gets when his ego is wounded.” He patted her arm soothingly. “You’ve teased him enough”
    The Queen’s eyes narrowed thoughtfully. She briefly considered forgoing this vein of revenge. A calculating look at her men dashed that thought, as she recalled what she’d overheard them discussing late last evening in excruciating detail.

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  29. George Rebane Avatar

    The first known use of Götterdämmerung is lost in the mists of its translation from Nordic myth to German. Its best known path into modern usage derived from Wagner’s last Ring opera ‘Götterdämmerung’ which premiered in 1876, although it was already a mature and well-used notion in German long before that date.

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  30. Steve Enos Avatar
    Steve Enos

    Here are just some of the atheists in history and some of what they had to say.
    Benjamin Franklin being just one of them. So under Todd’s claim Benjamin Franklin believed “in nothing of beauty, only darkness”.
    Try these atheists for a start:
    1. Creationists make it sound like a ‘theory’ is something you dreamt up after being drunk all night — Isaac Asimov
    2. I don’t believe in God. My god is patriotism. Teach a man to be a good citizen and you have solved the problem of life. — Andrew Carnegie
    3. All thinking men are atheists. — Ernest Hemingway
    4. Lighthouses are more helpful then churches. — Benjamin Franklin
    5. Faith means not wanting to know what is true. — Friedrich Nietzsche
    6. The fact that a believer is happier than a skeptic is no more to the point than the fact that a drunken man is happier than a sober one. — George Bernard Shaw
    7. Say what you will about the sweet miracle of unquestioning faith, I consider a capacity for it terrifying and absolutely vile. — Kurt Vonnegut
    8. I believe in God, only I spell it Nature. — Frank Lloyd Wright
    9. Man will never be free until the last king is strangled with the entrails of the last priest. — Denis Diderot
    10. A man is accepted into a church for what he believes and he is turned out for what he knows. — Samuel Clemens
    11. The whole thing is so patently infantile, so foreign to reality, that to anyone with a friendly attitude to humanity it is painful to think that the great majority of mortals will never be able to rise above this view of life. — Sigmund Freud
    12. Religion is regarded by the common people as true, by the wise as false, and by the rulers as useful. — Edward Gibbon
    13. The church says the earth is flat, but I know that it is round, for I have seen the shadow on the moon, and I have more faith in a shadow than in the church. — Ferdinand Magellan
    14. Not only is there no god, but try getting a plumber on weekends. — Woody Allen
    15. It’s an incredible con job when you think about it, to believe something now in exchange for something after death. Even corporations with their reward systems don’t try to make it posthumous. — Gloria Steinem

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  31. Paul Emery Avatar
    Paul Emery

    Did you fight in the military Todd? Who took the bullets for you?
    I agree with Steve about the lack of awareness of the diversity of the Islamic culture by most participants in this blog. The Salam Center in Sacramento welcomes inquiry and engagement with those who would seek dialog about the Religion of Islam and it’s history. You can contact them here.
    http://salamcenter.org/

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  32. Steve Enos Avatar
    Steve Enos

    Here’s a great little video about some well know atheists… including Warren Buffett, Billy Joel and some guy that started Microsoft:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZIwkrHhQIMA

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  33. George Rebane Avatar

    “… we just reject your framing of the issues in fear based, religiously bigoted, and moralistic tones.”
    Well then, let someone from the left take any one of the above 25 issues and demonstrate its basis in fear, religious bigotry, or some known standard of morality.
    The only fear that has been demonstrated here so far is the fear of confronting, through reasoned discourse, any of the notions that I have posted.

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  34. Steve Enos Avatar
    Steve Enos

    Here’s another short, great video listing a number of known atheists… including Benjamin Franklin:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n1OCMSG9CIE&feature=related
    But Todd says… “Atheists believe in nothing of beauty, only darkness”.

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  35. Steve Enos Avatar
    Steve Enos

    Oh, John Adams… a founding father of our Country… also an atheist!

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  36. George Rebane Avatar

    SteveE – you must have a deeply buried point about all your references to atheism. Can you uncover it for us? Else you look as if you don’t know what’s going on in this comment stream.
    PaulE – perhaps you could invite someone from the Salam Center to join us and dissect one of the 25 ideas I offered in this post. Islam has been coming to us in many ways that are fearful, perhaps someone from there can come and bring some balance to what their brethren have been doing.

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  37. Douglas Keachie Avatar

    Let’s not forget us Hopeful Agnostics, the world’s simplest explanation of existence after the body’s molecules all agree to disagree and go their separate ways.
    After death, 3 possibilities:
    worse,
    same,
    or better.
    2 out of three is not bad odds, and there is no reliable information available to weigh any possibility any higher than any other.

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  38. Steve Enos Avatar
    Steve Enos

    The there is Pat Tillman.
    US Army Ranger and NFL star, killed in combat serving and defending the USA… also an atheist!
    But Todd says US Army Ranger Pat Tillman believed “in nothing of beauty, only darkness”.

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  39. George Rebane Avatar

    Perhaps we can put atheism to bed here by acknowledging it as the belief system akin to the religion that it is. Philosophers and scientists have longed informed us that the existence and non-existence of God cannot be proved (i.e. God’s absence cannot be falsified even though Its existence does satisfy Occam). Therefore an atheist’s belief is fashioned of the same cloth as that of those who do believe in God. It is the agnostic who simply accepts the question as one deprived of a reasoned settlement, and goes on with life sanguine with that conclusion.

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  40. Steve Enos Avatar
    Steve Enos

    George… you posted:
    “SteveE – you must have a deeply buried point about all your references to atheism. Can you uncover it for us? Else you look as if you don’t know what’s going on in this comment stream”.
    Well here’s why I provided the info on atheists. One just needs to read “this comment stream” above to see the reason.
    You see George it was a DIRECT and SPECIFIC response to Todd’s two posts above. Todd made a claim and then Todd wanted to know where the response was. I provided a response to Todd’s statement and his request for a response… it’s really simple, I did what Todd asked for.
    Here’s Todd’s posts from the above “comment stream”:
    “Atheists believe in nothing of beauty, only darkness”.
    Posted by: Todd Juvinall | 27 July 2011 at 11:10 AM
    “still no responses from the lftwingers here, only bloviating”.
    Posted by: Todd Juvinall | 27 July 2011 at 11:16 AM

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  41. Douglas Keachie Avatar

    @GRebane:
    Todd brought up the notion that Steve would adapt to Islam, Then Steve indicated that he was an atheist. Then Todd declared all atheists know nothing but darkness, and that unleashed the flood of evidence from Steve to the contrary. Ain’t we got fun?

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  42. Steve Enos Avatar
    Steve Enos

    George, do you agree with Todd’s claim that “Atheists believe in nothing of beauty, only darkness”?

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  43. Paul Emery Avatar
    Paul Emery

    George
    Inviting representatives from the Salam Center to Nevada County for an evening of discussion and dialog is an excellent idea. I’ll see what I can do to make it happen.

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  44. Steve Enos Avatar
    Steve Enos

    Douglas… thanks for pointing out “this comment stream” and why I posted infomation about atheists.
    I just responded to Todd’s posts and his specific request above for a response “from the lftwingers here”.

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  45. Steve Wynn Avatar
    Steve Wynn

    Todd, just how much service did you participate in? (is none a number?)
    I guess in your little mind you’re “qualified” to speak with those of us who actually have done more than cry about others.

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  46. George Rebane Avatar

    OK gentlemen, you’ve provided the unfortunate thread to the ‘atheist detour’ which I apparently missed. My apologies.
    I’m still waiting for some coherent discussion of one of the 25, or even an answer to my 1143am comment. Maybe it will be a long wait, I hope not.
    In the interval I received the following link from a regular RR reader that might redirect the discussion.
    http://eureferendum.blogspot.com/2011/07/only-acceptable-diagnosis.html

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  47. John S Avatar
    John S

    I am not really sure what it does for all of you to get so deeply off the subject matter right from the get-go.
    George, great list, sorry to see you were attacked for even thinking about putting them to print. Good grief!

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  48. Mike Thornton Avatar

    Paul:
    Mohammed Aziz is the Imam at SALAM
    He’s been to KVMR in the past and took questions about Islam, live on air for two hours, one evening.

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  49. Mike Thornton Avatar

    Oh heck!
    I forgot to add
    (removed for actually knowing a Muslim)

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