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If it hasn’t happened, it won’t happen. – Progressive shibboleth

George Rebane

The conversation hereabouts circles the ‘sustainability of socialism’ barn as regularly as turning the pages of a calendar.   Ever since the French revolution we have always lived with socialists who in past years were harder to spot, at least until Marx and Bastiat published their pro- and con- apologies.  In those years socialists living in capitalist countries did their best to hide their socio-economic credos as they sought to fashion public policy, and letting the word ‘socialism’ be connected with their proposals was the ultimate taboo and an almost certain kiss of death.

Not so any more.  We are now almost 50 years into a public education system the common thread of which has been to turn out socialist-friendly graduates.  Most recently this subterfuge has been replaced with the educators’ blatant promotion of socialism accompanied by a revised history that strongly recommends it to young minds.  And so today we have at least two generations of 'educated' voters who are convinced that everything anti-socialist they hear in the public forum is fomented by the rightwing fascisti and their greedy capitalist running dogs.


In present-day America socialism is viewed by tens of millions as an ideological peer of capitalism, republicanism, libertarianism, conservatism, … – an idea definitely suited for being promoted in polite company.  When the conversation turns to comparing and contrasting socialism with other ways of organizing society, then the notion of sustainable socialism inevitably surfaces.  And such conversational turns can even yield some productive ideas once the participants agree that socialism, as capitalism, is not an all-or-nothing form of governance – both exist and operate in variable configurations and degrees of implementation.

The big rift or tear in understanding socialism begins between people when it becomes clear that socialistic governments can operate only under centralized planning and control, and with a massive and continuous transfer of funds from the diminishing troop of producers whose means of production have yet to be nationalized.  In short, socialism’s lifeblood is other people’s money (OPM) since for some hidden (to socialists) reason socialism is not so good at generating the wealth it wants to redistribute.

Today America’s paleo-socialists and proto-socialists continue to hold up the EU countries as success templates for socialist policies, and ask why we can’t be more like them.  What they continue to miss and/or misrepresent is that the US has succored EU development through direct aid and very favorable trade policies, and under Pax Americana has allowed that continent to exist in a blissful peace paying only lip service to its defense obligations.  But in spite of all these benefits, while operating under socialist policies, the EU’s growth and its countries’ abilities to deliver services like healthcare and electric power has been strained to the point where now unemployment is still high, prices are soaring, and delivered services are going down.

Distinguished columnist Walter Russell Mead recently wrote ‘Europe’s Challenge is Decline not Trump’ wherein he outlined a number of metrics which glaringly illustrate why countries like GB, Germany, France, Denmark, Sweden, …  are doing their best to roll back socialism without roiling their addicted populations.  The EU’s economic recovery under socialism has languished at 0.6% annually, and its unemployment is still at 6.8% while it spends only 1.3% on its defense needs – almost all countries abrogating their 2% NATO commitment level which is met only by Estonia (2.4%) and Greece (2.1%), and GB almost at 1.9%.  And even this anemic economic performance is only possible because America’s recent entry as a major energy exporter (thanks to fracking) is keeping oil/gas prices at levels that would otherwise bankrupt half of EU’s members while drastically lowering the QoL for the remainder.

And in spite of all the European hoopla about concern for the environment, no country on the continent has come even close to meeting its much publicized climate change goals. (more here and here)  This is not the message that our lamestream makes clear to Americans as our Left lambasts us for our CO2 emissions which have been and continue to be reduced by the greatest percentages in the world.  As a footnote to OPM, Finland just ended its failed experiment with guaranteed national income, concluding that people paid for doing nothing didn’t take advantage of their good fortune to become more creative, learn new skills, and/or find a job.  Instead, they reported just being “happier”, unstressed, and quite sanguine about not having to work – whoulda thought?  (more here)

Meanwhile, our liberals keep repeating that since no EU country has yet to crash and burn, and/or turn to tyranny, it proves that socialism works and that the EU is a stable exemplar of socialism’s success.  Such liberals work with different 'facts', and no one offers any hope that a socialist will ever reason with facts.  But the closely related problem in the history of socialism is that basing its economic paradigm on forcible redistribution of OPM, socialists have never been good at social management or successfully predicting the impact of their policies on people’s behavior and the economy.  They are, however, profuse in manufacturing reasons why their plans haven’t worked out – their guiding star in this is the USSR’s record of perennially explaining that its agriculture’s failure to meet 5-year plans was due to 70+ years of “bad weather”.

A closer look at socialism’s history allows us to liken it to pregnancy.  There we know that it is not possible to be ‘a little bit pregnant’, it is the same with socialism.  For left to its natural progression, socialism will inevitably give birth to tyranny when OPM runs out.  As with pregnancy, the only way to stop it is with an abortion, one that can be a simple procedure at first, but then needs to be more violent as the pregnancy approaches term.

An example of the accelerating advent of socialism is also seen in the developing migration patterns of Americans as they seek states that have less rapacious governments.  Steven Malanga of the City Journal has done an analysis of such migration patterns and reports it in his ‘Why Service is Lousy in High-Tax States’.  There we see a litany of stats that document the movement of productive Americans away from our most socialist states to those that still understand how tax rates and regulations affect the productive and productivity.  A common denominator of our socialist havens is their deteriorating infrastructures and poor/unresponsive government services, exactly what has happened in other countries that have taken the same path.

In the final analysis, socialists are people with whom historical Americans will never have much in common.  They are a nasty lot that look at uncompliant Americans as a deplorable population segment that must be literally whipped into shape through more intruding and voluminous regulations, more enforcement agencies (i.e. govt guns in the street), an enlarged ‘criminal justice’ system to house the recalcitrant, re-education programs for those still malleable, and finally, their version of ‘the wall’ – the one they put you in front of, not the one to keep our borders secure.

“The American people will never knowingly adopt Socialism. But under the name of ‘liberalism’ they will adopt every fragment of the Socialist program, until one day America will be a Socialist nation, without knowing how it happened.” This quote has been mis?/attributed to Norman Thomas, long-time leader of America’s Socialist Party and six-time candidate for President.  Well, those days are gone; today our union-educated younger generation is knowingly adopting socialism, but still without knowing for what they have really voted.

Posted in , , , ,

115 responses to “Unsustainable Socialism”

  1. L Avatar
    L

    Our host has a (generally commendable) habit of packing a great deal into his commentaries. An example, in paragraph 7, is his comment (which will sail right past the lefties here) notices the fact that the US, alone among developed countries, has actually made measurable progress in reducing CO2 emissions.
    The long-expired Kyoto treaty was the first attempt to mandate reductions in CO2 output; the US Senate steadfastly refused to sign on, but upon expiry, Lo! only the United States showed any measurable progress.
    Likewise, under the current Paris Climate Treaty (from which Trump withdrew the US), once again, only the US is making any progress. Look it up, dopes, don’t ask me to do your research for you.
    Think maybe the freedom to innovate outside the straitjacket of government mandates has anything to do with this? L

    Like

  2. Scott O Avatar

    I can’t remember who wrote the following nor the French politician he quotes, but it is apt.
    Something along the line of – “You Americans have a socialist country in many respects but you don’t yet pay the necessary taxes.”
    Hence our ballooning debt.
    No lefties, it’s not because of the military or wars – the projected (and the numbers are following the projections) unfunded costs of our socialist programs are going to completely engulf our local, state and national budgets. The ‘rich’ can’t save us from our profligate ways. Bezos and the rest simply haven’t got anywhere near the dough to pull us out of our fiscal stew.
    It works great until it don’t.
    Sorry I don’t have the magic crystal ball to say when that is, but that fun day is coming. Not actually a single day, of course but a series of unpleasant jolts that our dear leaders will scramble to paper over with, well, paper. Lots of it. Our digital currency will enable all sorts of high-jinx for a while and who knows what all will ensue. A lot depends on world events as well. A really cool world war got us out our last mess and heralded the booming economy of the 50’s. Wanna bet we can pull that off again?

    Like

  3. Bill Tozer Avatar
    Bill Tozer

    On a recent thread on these boarrds, the agrument put forth by our Leftist commentators was because not one Western European (developed) “socialist country” has yet to transmute into a tyrannical form of governance, nor has any of these nations crashed and burned’, it can’t happen here.
    Aha! Western Europe does not have socialist countries. They, as in the oft cited Sweden model, are capitalistic countries with large welfare programs. Some may refer to them as Welfare States, but they are in reality Capitalistic systems that because of the capitalist economic model can fund the ‘welfare state. Sweden’s residents pay a 50% tax rate, top to bottom.
    —-
    The Select Committee of the GND will run the joint: a money quote from The Committee:
    “and deeply involve national and local labor unions to take a leadership role in the process of job training and worker deployment.”
    (B) The Plan for a Green New Deal (and the draft legislation) shall recognize that a national, industrial, economic mobilization of this scope and scale is a historic opportunity to virtually eliminate poverty in the United States and to make prosperity, wealth and economic security available to everyone participating in the transformation. In furtherance of the foregoing, the Plan (and the draft legislation) shall:
    provide all members of our society, across all regions and all communities, the opportunity, training and education to be a full and equal participant in the transition, including through a job guarantee program to assure a living wage job to every person who wants one;
    diversify local and regional economies, with a particular focus on communities where the fossil fuel industry holds significant control over the labor market, to ensure workers have the necessary tools, opportunities, and economic assistance to succeed during the energy transition;
    require strong enforcement of labor, workplace safety, and wage standards that recognize the rights of workers to organize and unionize free of coercion, intimidation, and harassment, and creation of meaningful, quality, career employment;
    ensure a ‘just transition’ for all workers, low-income communities, communities of color, indigenous communities, rural and urban communities and the front-line communities most affected by climate change, pollution and other environmental harm including by ensuring that local implementation of the transition is led from the community level and by prioritizing solutions that end the harms faced by front-line communities from climate change and environmental pollution;
    protect and enforce sovereign rights and land rights of tribal nations;
    mitigate deeply entrenched racial, regional and gender-based inequalities in income and wealth (including, without limitation, ensuring that federal and other investment will be equitably distributed to historically impoverished, low income, deindustrialized or other marginalized communities in such a way that builds wealth and ownership at the community level);
    include additional measures such as basic income programs, universal health care programs and any others as the select committee may deem appropriate to promote economic security, labor market flexibility and entrepreneurism; and
    deeply involve national and local labor unions to take a leadership role in the process of job training and worker deployment.
    (C) The Plan for a Green New Deal (and the draft legislation) shall recognize that innovative public and other financing structures are a crucial component in achieving and furthering the goals and guidelines relating to social, economic, racial, regional and gender-based justice and equality and cooperative and blah,, blah, blah, blah,
    http://inthesetimes.com/article/21632/green-new-deal-alexandria-ocasio-cortez-climate-cooperation-jackson-capital

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  4. Bill Tozer Avatar
    Bill Tozer

    My 6:49 pm in a nutshell
    “include additional measures such as basic income programs, universal health care programs and any others as the select committee may deem appropriate to promote economic security, labor market flexibility and entrepreneurism; and
    deeply involve national and local labor unions to take a leadership role in the process of job training and worker deployment.

    Like

  5. Bill Tozer Avatar
    Bill Tozer

    Oh yeah. The Select Committee will deem what is necessary. Not surprising, the Commmitttee has no legislative authority. Governing by committee…the Select Committee. It can’t happen here. No crash and burn here. No tyranny.
    https://www.facebook.com/TheRedRightAndYou/photos/a.1377669335697145/1451454754985269/?type=3&theater
    https://www.facebook.com/BuckSexton/photos/a.568156706588519/2413135025424002/?type=3&theater

    Like

  6. Scott O Avatar

    Just finished reading ‘Economic Calculation In The Socialist Commonwealth’ by Von Mises and ‘The Road To Serfdom’ by Hayek. The first was written in 1920 and the latter was first published in 1944. Both books have been championed previously here on RR.
    I can not fully express how awed I was by the prescience of future events laid out by both authors. Neither man was ‘lucky’ in his predictions or assumptions. Both simply looked around at history and the then current events and applied reason and common sense to explain why collectivism and socialism have always failed and why it will continue to fail.
    The bottom line is that only the individual acting in his or her own best interest has the most accurate ongoing information and responsibility to apply the most correct actions towards a healthy economy. The left will complain that it doesn’t work perfectly and there are glaring lapses in a capitalistic, free market system. But as both authors point out, a drive towards the goal of economic equality will always result in the ruination of whatever society did or will attempt it.

    Like

  7. Bill Tozer Avatar
    Bill Tozer

    This link is not about AOC or the GND, despite a first glance. Nay, it’s about (un)sustainability and the role it plays in the whole she-bang.
    “Sustainability is an ideology in which protecting the environment is inherently wrapped up in protecting society and the economy––protecting not just against pollutants and high temperatures, but against dangers of any kind. That means padding workers against potential economic downturns with guaranteed income, labor unions, and generous government welfare that picks up the tab for housing, health care, food, and water. It also means crushing businesses with restrictive regulations or nationalizing them altogether…
    The environment can’t really be separated from our society and the economy, according to the doctrine of sustainability. Hence the common depiction of sustainability as a Venn diagram, showing three interlocking circles labeled “environment,” “society,” and “economy,” with “sustainability” in the middle.
    That explains why some have proposed bizarre correlations between environmental and social problems, like this study that estimated global warming would cause an additional 180,000 rapes by 2099. And a couple years ago National Geographic (among many other publications) credited climate change with the rise of ISIS. (Sen. Bernie Sanders also blamed climate change for terrorism, while Prince Charles pinned it with the war in Syria.)
    Via the concept of “environmental racism,” global warming has also been blamed for exacerbating racism and social injustice. (Often this is described as harming “frontlines communities.”) And the corporations blamed for causing climate change are also blamed for income inequality.
    http://thefederalist.com/2019/02/20/higher-education-incubated-eco-socialism-green-new-deal/

    Like

  8. Scott O Avatar

    Bill at 4:25 – ‘Global Warming’ is a handy device for the left in explaining all sorts of social maladies. Certainly Syria was a wealthy and prosperous multi-kulti nation that inspired awe in the rest of the world until ‘Global Warming’ came along. That beacon of democracy in the sand suddenly fell to the evils of V-8 driving Americans. Such a shame.
    How many times do the lefty greens have to tell the world they don’t care about science, they just want to get rid of capitalism? The thick heads of the leftista that show up here refuse to acknowledge any of it.

    Like

  9. Scott O Avatar

    Oregon leads the way!
    https://www.apnews.com/5852bf92518d4502acb0270099066d73
    Boy – those Oregonians are sure lucky to have them smart fellers in govt get it right!
    They’ve done so well they now have a crises on their hands.
    And the sure cure for stupidity is more stupidity.
    Let’s remember how Oregon got where they are now-
    http://oregonbusinessreport.com/2016/03/oregon-slips-in-business-rating/
    Read it and weep. Just make houses ever more expensive and the promised land is nigh!

    Like

  10. Scott O Avatar

    I notice the usual suspects aren’t adding their 2 pennies to the ‘conversation’.
    Could this be why?
    https://www.detroitnews.com/story/opinion/columnists/nolan-finley/2019/02/21/finley-22-trillion-debt-lets-spend-more/2925719002/

    Like

  11. L Avatar
    L

    Weimar 1919 L

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  12. Steven Frisch Avatar
    Steven Frisch

    The first problem with your premise is that your definition of “socialism” as implied here and defined in your glossary is incorrect. Socialism is not a “form of governance that seeks as its endgame the state ownership of the means of production and distribution which it executes through a centralized process of
    planning and control.”
    Socialism is an economic system where there is social ownership of the means of production.
    BTW, “state ownership of the means of production” is communism, not socialism.
    The vast majority of those currently being labeled socialists are not…they are mixed market economy advocates. Almost no one labeled a socialist is advocating ending the economic system based private ownership of the means of production, myself included.
    A mixed capitalist market economy, with private ownership of property, private enterprise, and planning, taxation and the freedom to challenge taxation through democratic governance, regulation and a legal framework constraining regulation, is exactly what we have had under the Constitution, and we continue to have, and even most of those defined as radical today advocate.
    When when defines their own terms sans the context of history they have a fool for their linguist.

    Like

  13. Steven Frisch Avatar
    Steven Frisch

    That should read, “When one defines their own terms sans the context of history they have a fool for their linguist.”

    Like

  14. Todd Swallows Avatar
    Todd Swallows

    “When one defines their own terms sans the context of history they have a fool for their linguist.”
    You said it better than I ever could, but my thoughts have run that way many times when coming across self derived jingoism that passes (among some) for intelligence or simply another “big word” that no one is going to bother looking up.

    Like

  15. Todd Swallows Avatar
    Todd Swallows

    “Just make houses ever more expensive and the promised land is nigh!”
    Sounds like the words of someone living in Idaho.

    Like

  16. Bill Tozer Avatar
    Bill Tozer

    Steve
    “Socialism is an economic system where there is social ownership of the means of production.”
    Can you explain to my thick skull what “social ownership of the means of production” means exactly? Like, social ownership of a watch making factory? Social ownership of Mack trucks?
    I could be wrong, but it sounds like a huge bureaucratic state.
    Oh a related note, Gavin just came to GV. He said we need more renter productions and the state of California is not producing enough housing units. We are 49th out of 50 in producing housing units. (First ten second audio clip).
    How does social ownership fit into the means of production in producing more housing units in CA? Thanks.
    https://knco.com/governor-newsom-stops-by-grass-valley-conference/

    Like

  17. Bill Tozer Avatar
    Bill Tozer

    Typo: Renter protections, not renter productions.

    Like

  18. Don Bessee Avatar
    Don Bessee

    It remains to be seen how its going to play in fly over country –
    WASHINGTON, Feb 23 (Reuters) – Liberal Democratic presidential contenders’ rush to embrace the left’s most ambitious proposals has some Democrats worried there could be a price to pay when they try to defeat President Donald Trump next year.
    http://news.trust.org/item/20190223105012-nj3yp
    https://www.politico.com/story/2019/02/23/2020-democrats-progressive-gamble-is-about-to-get-real-1198006
    😉

    Like

  19. Paul Emery Avatar

    George:
    What option to Socialism do you propose for schoolfor our children?
    What option to Socialism do you propose for Local, State and National police?
    What option to Socialism do you propose for fire fighters?
    What option to socialism do you propose for Jails and Prisons and Courts
    What option to Socialism do you propose for our Military?
    What option to prisons do you propose for insuring clean water and air
    What option to Socialism do you propose for FEMA
    What option to socialism do you propose for the Coast Guard
    What option to Socialism do you propose for the Highway Patrol
    What option to Socialism do you propose for health care for the poor?
    What option to Socialism do you propose for patrolling our borders.
    and on and on and on and on.
    You are a socialist George unless you propose non government solutions to the above Socialism is what we have now.

    Like

  20. Don Bessee Avatar
    Don Bessee

    Why, why, why followed by little feet stomping the ground.
    😉

    Like

  21. scenes Avatar
    scenes

    SteveF sez:
    “Socialism is an economic system where there is social ownership of the means of production.
    BTW, “state ownership of the means of production” is communism, not socialism.”

    Like

  22. Todd Swallows Avatar
    Todd Swallows

    “Ism” this to death if you will, there is no black and white answer. Is CalTrans a communistic enterprise? Dignity Health is a $10.5 Billion non profit, but despite the slick religious tax dodge they are in no way doing God’s work any more than they are paying for the infrastructure of our community.

    Like

  23. Walt Avatar

    It sounds good at first.. Then wait for reality to set in.
    https://dailycaller.com/2019/02/23/ocasio-cortez-senior-staffers-pay-cut-living-wage/
    “New York Democratic Rep. Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez will likely need to cut senior staff salaries in order to afford the “living wage” the freshman congresswoman intends to pay every staff member.”
    Take money from someone who actually may have a clue what they are doing, so someone who hasn’t figured out how to tie their shoes can get more? LOL!!!!
    Place your bets… How long before that office turns into Venezuela?

    Like

  24. Steven Frisch Avatar
    Steven Frisch

    Bill and Scenes…”social ownership” could mean employee ownership, or cooperatives, or citizen ownership of equity, in a company or means of production.
    The “means of production” are the capital, physical and non-financial inputs used to produce goods and services.
    The point I am making is that that is what “Socialism” is. Defining it any other way, as George does, is simply a semantic aberration designed to either confuse people about the real meaning of the word.

    Like

  25. Steven Frisch Avatar
    Steven Frisch

    Oops, dropped a clause in that last sentence…should read:
    “The point I am making is that that is what “Socialism” is. Defining it any other way, as George does, is simply a semantic aberration designed to either confuse people about the real meaning of the word, or imply that people who are really mixed capitalist market economy adherents are socialists.”

    Like

  26. Don Bessee Avatar
    Don Bessee

    The gift that keeps on giving –
    The Job Creators Network fired back at Democratic Rep. (D-NY) Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez with two more billboards in the heart of Times Square, this time roasting the left-wing Democrat after she attacked the group on social media.
    “Hey AOC, Saw your wack tweet,” the second 7th Avenue billboard says, which is in response to an Ocasio-Cortez tweet that called JCN “wack.”
    https://www.breitbart.com/politics/2019/02/23/job-creators-network-fires-back-at-alexandria-ocasio-cortez-with-two-more-times-square-billboards/
    😉

    Like

  27. Todd Juvinall Avatar

    Is that Frisch’e papa on the page on socialism?

    Like

  28. Steven Frisch Avatar
    Steven Frisch

    Yes, lets be clear about the point that majority employee ownership of corporations is an American tradition, allowed under our laws since our founding, and is way more common than most people think. As a matter of fact I bet a lot of people who think they are Laissez-faire capitalists are buying from them without really knowing it.
    https://www.nceo.org/articles/employee-ownership-100

    Like

  29. Todd Swallows Avatar
    Todd Swallows

    Is this Mr Ed speak? What does it mean? Inquiring 4th grade English as a Second Language students want to know.
    Is that Frisch’e papa on the page on socialism?

    Like

  30. Walt Avatar

    Nice try Frisch, We do know what socialism is, and what it can become. My wife’s Aunt got a good taste first hand. She took a bullet to the leg running across no man’s land near Checkpoint Charley. Her friend that was with her wasn’t so lucky. A bullet hit her in the head. Go ahead and explain your “semantic aberration” about that.
    Our Constitution and Bill of Rights is a hindrance, and has no place in the Commu..uh, “socialism” your trying to sell here.
    Just say what you mean. Socialism is just a “kinder, gentler, and softer” kind of Communism.

    Like

  31. Billl Tozer Avatar
    Billl Tozer

    Thanks for answering, Steve. You always answer my questions, every single time. No exemptions. That is a sign of integrity.
    Rather than go off on the ecological disasters in Venezuela and other places where crude oil is leaking all over the ground and polluting steams AFTER oil ccompanies were “nationalized” and run by government bureaucrats who don’tt know their asses from a hole in the ground….. not to mention running an oil company or it’s distribution systems, I shall retrain.
    Yes, if I own 3 shares of Disney or Wal-Mart, I own a piece of the publicly traded. company. Ironically, NID is a rate payer owned company and isn’t under the control of the PUC. I should know. When PG&E wanted to build an access road in the higher country and was denied, they had NID cut the road via a partnership and PG&E paid for the whole shebang, lol. So, when all the non-rate payers were demanding more transparency from NID and packing the NID meetings, I thought from my faraway seat out in the peanut gallery that NID should tell the Non-Ratepayers to go fuk themselves.
    It’s owned by the people, people owned. Rate payer owned. Can’t buy stock in it. It’s owned by the consumers. Like a co-op. Sweet.
    Ok, the above was just filler. I will get to the point and leave with three points concerning “means of production”:
    1). When I walk.into the Post Office, should I look down at the tile floor and think of some government factor worker who made that floor tile I am standing on?
    2) The Orville Dam was designed by a government engineer just hired out of grad school and who never designed or built as much as a swimming pool in his entire life. He be an expert.
    3). Food for thought: The ones who rise to the top in capitalism are the exact same types who rise to the top in communism. Or socialism, if you prefer. They never experience want or need. Now, excuse me. I have to go watch my Two Minutes of Hate. It’s mandatory.

    Like

  32. Steve Frisch Avatar
    Steve Frisch

    Actually Bill NID is a perfect example of a type of social ownership of the means of production in a mixed market economy, as are rural electric cooperatives, and employee owned companies.

    Like

  33. Todd Juvinall Avatar

    Sorry Frisch NID is owned by the voters.

    Like

  34. George Rebane Avatar

    PaulE 343pm – Socialism is STILL not an all or nothing proposition.
    BTW, thanks for all of our liberal betters for joining us to debate the issues. No matter the disparagements, we all feel fortunate that you have taken your time to grace us with your contributions. Thank you.

    Like

  35. Walt Avatar

    I doubt the ridiculous “non profit” incomes would still be allowed under “soft” commieism. The Gov. will do so much better.
    Someone may have to find a real job.
    Now don’t forget the huge jump in taxation. You will REALLY be forking out “your fair share”.

    Like

  36. Walt Avatar

    A Commiecrat LIES to get elected. Like that should be a big surprise.
    https://www.breitbart.com/politics/2019/02/23/connecticut-democrat-gov-ned-lamont-reverses-campaign-pledge-tolls-everyone/
    ““He took one of his most fundamental campaign promises – that he wasn’t going to put up tolls on cars – and he lied to the taxpayers and he lied to the voters,” ”
    In a budget speech Wednesday that left voters reeling, Lamont, a telecommunications entrepreneur who campaigned as a businessman who knew how to reverse the state’s financial crisis, mapped out his plans to bring Connecticut back from the brink of near-bankruptcy – but none of them involved cutting spending.
    In fact, the Democrat proposed increased spending as he also pushed for at least 53 electronic overhead toll gantries across what is the third smallest state in the United States – for all cars and trucks. In addition, Lamont called for expanded sales taxes on dozens of new items and services as well as new taxes on sugary drinks, a surcharge on plastic bags, and a $15 minimum wage. ”
    This is the crap socialists do.

    Like

  37. Bill Tozer Avatar
    Bill Tozer

    Steve, that’s why I included NID and all the outsiders demanding NID answer to them, lol. Let’s cut to the caste.
    You bristle at being labeled a socialist or having ideas like workers on the Board of Directors or higher tax rates as “socialism.” Tough titty. You and the older white lefty posters here all HATE the label of being pinkos. Remember, this is Hillary County. But, California ain’t Clinton County no more. No Deep Blue State is. It’s Democrat Socialism all the way, baby. Look around. Think you have a voice in the direction Frisco or LA or Sac is going? That is where it’s going. No place for moderates. Like Nancy said, there is no place for pro-lifers in the Dem Party. Zero. And no place for Christians and old white men and conservative white women in the new society either. Besides them, it’s a big tent and fairness and equity and socialism for all…except the foremention malcontents.
    Think your progressive leanings will spare you? Think the Democrat Socialist label is not cover for Socialism? Think they are going to stop at the Swedish model where they keep their mitts off capitalism so that capitalism can pay for a generous welfare state?
    Think your Mid West values stand a prayer looking at the declared “Democrat” candidates in CA or on a national level? It’s full socialism coming down the pike, whether you like the label or not.
    Where is all the energy in the political realm right now? All the energy, all the excitement, all the direction is embodied in AOC. She is in the top ten on Earth of followed private Twitter accounts. Maybe the top five. Listen to the children. Don’t trust anyone over 30. We are the world, all are children of the Universe. No pain allowed.
    You guys look out and see piles of money others have and think about that 24/7 and devise ways to get your hands on it…. ..to pay for unicorns and fairy dust….just as long as your ox does not get gored. It’s for the little people.
    I was in Russia after the fall. Bernie is right. The subways are like beautiful museums, no trash. Gorgeous. My host taught English and Art History at the U of Moscow. She had a place. One nice room in a tall building. Shared it with her son and parents, and brother. A stove pipe from the basement ran up through her place and heated the unit.. If her parents wanted to have sex, everybody just turned their heads and looked at the walls. . She was lucky. She had a good place, being a professional and all. Made about 63,000 rubles a week, or about 38 bucks.
    Met her friends. Told them to meet me at such and such place later one night. They all looked at me like I was from Mars. No one had cars, lol. Or, nix that idea. The only Mercedes I saw (and there was a lot of them) were all driven by the party leaders. Want a better place? Get more involved and clout with the Party.
    The only complaint they had was after the fall, they had to pay rent. Before that the rent was free. Reagan was right. When he heard that it took 6 months in Russia to get a water pump for your commoner car (the ones who were lucky enough to haves car), he said the USSR would collapse. It did. 6 months to get a water pump. Mountains of grain rotting on the docks.
    Yes, we aren’t Russia or the USSR or Cuba or South Africa (which is the next to collapse).. We be California.
    Sorry you don’t like rhe Socialist label, pinko. Not.

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  38. Steven Frisch Avatar
    Steven Frisch

    Posted by: Todd Juvinall | 23 February 2019 at 06:28 PM
    So Todd, clearly you did not read what social ownership means. The voters, or the people, are a form of social ownership.

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  39. George Rebane Avatar

    As Garrett Hardin taught us – when many claim to own something, it turns out that no one owns it, and all will take from it all they can because they know it will soon be gone.

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  40. Steven Frisch Avatar
    Steven Frisch

    Bill higher tax rates are not socialism. That is a mixed market economy mechanism.
    Worker (or other forms of social) ownership of the means of production in the US, as you just illustrated, already exists. The US as a mixed market economy has always had some forms of social ownership. We have thousands of worker owned businesses. We have thousands of public purpose corporations, We have some state ownership of equity of privately owned businesses. We have farmers cooperatives for things like rice mills (one of which I pass driving almost every month down in the valley) grain elevators, and processing and packing plants.
    The question is not do we have some forms of social ownership…we do.
    But in the end I am a mixed market economy guy…you can call me whatever you want to…but words have meanings, and the word socialist has a meaning, and I’m not a socialist. But hey, you can think whatever you want.
    And did you notice how you just escalated from a respectful exchange between the two of us to calling me a pinko without me ever escalating on you? Does no one here have any integrity?

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  41. Walt Avatar

    So that’s the new sales pitch Frisch? “social ownership?”
    Supposedly, we already do! We vote them in, and in a fu^ked up way, pay them.(They just vote themselves a paycheck and a raise, with our money) They work for us.. Remember?
    I can’t wait till the “G” man under DEM/Soc nationalize the evil Empire. They are just making too much money, have too much power, and too big a voice. They are a threat to the government.(yet helped get those vary same people into power…Damned backstabbers)
    Can you see 100 Nancy Pelosi’s drunk with power over the people?
    (sure you could)

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  42. Steven Frisch Avatar
    Steven Frisch

    Hey George you do realize that Garrett Hardin’s response to the problem of the tragedy of the commons was not just privatization right?
    He also posited regulation as a solution, as well as internalizing externalities by incorporating social and environmental costs into the cost of goods and services.
    It has always bugged me that as smart as you think you are, and as much as you use Hardin as an example, you are essentially mis-using Hardin’s work as propaganda for privatization.
    Your misrepresentation of his work also does a disservice to Hardin’s Law, “”We can never do merely one thing. Any intrusion into nature has numerous effects, many of which are unpredictable.”
    You just don’t get it

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  43. Steven Frisch Avatar
    Steven Frisch

    In other words, Hardin did not teach you shit because you clearly don’t understand his work.

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  44. Steven Frisch Avatar
    Steven Frisch

    Walt.
    Nothing new about t Walt, that has been the definition of socialism for 150 years.
    I really can’t help it if you guys don’t read economics or history.

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  45. Walt Avatar

    Here’s a little more for ya’
    https://dailycaller.com/2019/02/23/wilford-illinois-pensions/
    “ILLINOIS LOOKS TO RAID PRIVATE RETIREMENT ACCOUNTS TO SOLVE ITS PENSION CRISIS”
    “Illinois has a severe pension crisis. That’s probably an understatement — the state has over $130 billion in unfunded pension liabilities alone. Last summer, Moody’s reported that the state made the record books for the largest ever pension debt-to-revenue ratio, with pension debt equaling 601 percent of total government revenue. So what are some in the state proposing to solve the problem? Going after money in private retirement accounts, of course.
    Two state policy groups, the Civic Committee of the Commercial Club of Chicago and the Civic Federation, have come out in favor of ending an exclusion in the state’s income tax for pension income and federally taxable Social Security income. Doing so, the organizations argue, would raise $2.5 billion in revenue, equivalent to a 0.5 percent income tax rate hike and a 0.85 percent corporate tax rate increase.”
    As long as it’s not yours,, right Frisch?
    That’s not somewhere else on the marble. It’s here.

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  46. Todd Juvinall Avatar

    Don’t you just love how socialists like Frisch change the language to suit their ideology? Orwell exposed the Frisch’s of the world a long time ago. I remember when the democrats stared calling taxes “investments”. And there are many examples of this subterfuge.

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