Rebane's Ruminations
April 2018
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George Rebane

My recent commentary on Par Force (here) invited discussion and debate, and the invitation has already been accepted.  PF represents an important perspective which some, like me, consider to be the quintessential reason for the Founders’ inclusion of the Second Amendment in our Constitution.  Others disagree, and their points of disagreement are important and should be understood.  However, as more often than not, many (most?) commenters have a problem keeping the various factors separated that relate to PF.  PF and every other issue that we have dissected over the last 12 years have many parts, and most of them are independent/separate from, or orthogonal to each other and therefore deserve their own focused treatment.

For various reasons some readers, either through careless thinking, ignorance of the issue, and/or determined cynicism, muddle such factors and essentially derail the debate into a cacophony of arguments consisting of fragments from this or that independent factor to either attempt to make a point, counter someone else’s, or simply mislead.  In any event, the debates here and on other blogs, more often than not, shatter into so many mis-constructed shards that ‘all the king’s horses and all the king’s men couldn’t put Humpty-Dumpty together again’, and so the debate withers away without resolution or clear identification of commenters’ views on any of the distinct and separate factors in play.

So, here is a sampling of some independent factors about PF that would be informative to resolve and/or identify commenters’ divergent positions and supporting arguments.

  1. Should a modern democratic republic maintain the right of its franchised citizens to keep and bear arms so that, in their desperate last resort, they may gather and be able to broadly communicate their grievances before being silenced by local authorities?
  2. Should local government authorities in a modern democratic republic be able to silence dissent so that knowledge of its existence, the identity of the aggrieved, and/or the grievance particulars do not spread over the countryside?
  3. How did our Founders and their fellow American patriots answer #1 and #2?
  4. Since our Revolution, how have successive American generations answered #1 and #2?
  5. What dangers, if any, to America’s traditional way of life does the maintenance of PF rights pose across the land?
  6. ‘Par’ is not intended as crisp definition involving specific armaments and equipments. In today’s American society, how par should Par be?  Given what the constabulary has, what (minimum) PF should a citizen have the right to possess?
  7. How should the resolution of events such as the Branch Davidians’ resistance in Waco, the Ruby Ridge episode, and the Bundy ranch standoffs bear on maintaining the PR interpretation of the Second Amendment?
  8. Given that law-abiding Americans today own over 300 million guns, and the rate of gun ownership in past decades has been higher, and that the presence of guns (in all age groups) was more prevalent in past decades, what has happened in recent years to elevate concern about ‘gun violence’?
  9. Given the 20th century ‘death by government’ history, and the continuing rise of authoritarian states, is America immune from such a future? If so, why?  (American exceptionalism?  Americans are simply better at governance? …); if not, what alternatives, if any, to PF should Americans have?
  10. If the label Par Force is not suitable, what are some better labels?

Please recall that this is a little meta-missive about debating PF, and not an invitation to debate these factors here; that should be done under ‘Par Force in the Second Amendment’.  However, I do solicit feedback on the inclusion of the above numbered factors, and any appropriate edits and/or additional factors for how we should dissect this issue.

Posted in ,

65 responses to “Debating Par Force et al”

  1. Scott Obermuller Avatar

    “You are imagining things if you think they are coming for your guns.”
    Hard to reason with a person who would post that line.

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  2. Walt Avatar

    “You are imagining things if you think they are coming for your guns.”
    OKKaaaaaaaa……..
    https://www.americanthinker.com/articles/2018/03/gun_confiscation_begins_in_illinois.html

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  3. George Rebane Avatar

    Gregory 951am – ‘apology’ is an instantiation of apologetics, reasoned arguments or writings in justification of something. Hope this helps.
    Just because someone has not used a term or label as a referent for an established concept does not mean that such new labels cannot subsequently be introduced and used to great profit (as languages have expanded over the ages). Justice Scalia would have been the last to place such restrictions on words that he (or anyone else) had not formerly used. And there is no “twisting” required for par force to be defined as the essence of the Second Amendment, that IMHO is just your elevated opinion.
    But as I have said before, your futility argument stands and has been noted. And you can bet the ranch that its reception/rejection will not depend on my using ‘par force’ or ‘strawberry pie’ to label the underlying principle which I will try to get across, and introduce into the discussion.
    Taking a step back, it appears that your frustration here is based on reasons different from how I (and others?) have treated the Second Amendment issue. It has occurred to me that you frequent these pages more or less as a selfless pedagogue, extending the intellectual horizons for all of us. As a lifelong teacher, I, for one, am grateful for your tutelage, and only hope that I can some day assess my capabilities as you do yours.

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  4. Robert Cross Avatar
    Robert Cross

    Greg: 11:19
    “No, Bobby, there will not be hostilities between the US Army and US civilians, c
    Then what is the reasoning behind the need for assault rifles as expressed by George and others about ‘armed resistance’ to tyranny? This makes no sense.
    ” no matter how hard you wish for it.’ You are beginning to sound like Todd with your snide baseless assumptions. Of course that is understandable for you nazis to say.

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  5. Gregory Avatar
    Gregory

    “My point is that 300 million guns are not going away, amendments or no amendments.
    You are imagining things if you think they are coming for your guns.”
    No, they will be waiting for you to bring them in. Big fine and jail time if you don’t, to be enforced as they are discovered.
    Think about this line … “I want a divorce. I want the car, the house, the kids and the dog. You keep the icky guns in the basement and I won’t call the cops. Deal?”

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  6. George Rebane Avatar

    re ARchieB’s 1011am and RobertC’s 1118am – It is again clear that, given all the detail that has already been recorded and responded to on the Founders’ et al reasons for including the 2nd, I am nowhere near smart enough to communicate them to these gentlemen. Time to cut bait.

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  7. Marillyn Lock-Heed Avatar
    Marillyn Lock-Heed

    ,,, the 2nd amendment dint have anything to do with bundy,,,adults can drink,,,smoke dope,,,buy guns,,, big deal!!! but you cant if you are not 21
    maybe you cant buy a gun either till you are 21,,,so what,,,you can always borrow a gun
    occifer,,,all my guns were just stolen by cartel growers!!! not

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  8. Gregory Avatar
    Gregory

    “Of course that is understandable for you nazis to say.”
    -Bobby 1118am
    Ahh, the N-bomb, the ultimate baseless assumption. Hypocrisy, thy sock-puppet name is Robert Cross.
    I’ve not yet heard how that goes along with 2nd amendment rights for everyone who has not been adjudicated as criminal or violent. The opposite of Nazis in WWII.

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  9. Bill Tozer Avatar

    Number 4
    If memory serves me correctly, 60 colonists forced 600 Redcoats to retreat back to Boston after the shot heard around the world. Par force does not mean equal force. If the locals involved were thought to be a band of crazy lawbreaking misfits by their fellow neighbors, it all would have ended shortly thereafter. The British would have regrouped, the rebels rounded up and hung, and we would all be paying taxes to the King to this day. Par force that day merely bought the rebels time. Their message, ie, “the word getting out” could have been rejected or welcomed by neighboring communities, thus forming a broader consensus of yea or nay.
    The Boston Massacre happened well before Lexington. The locals (some) decided it was not going to happen again. And yes, a minority of the Colonialist males participated in fighting the Revolunitionary War. It was not a One Shot Charlie type of thing. It built up over years until just enough said, “no mas”.
    So, what does this have to go with the price of tea floating in the Boston Harbor? Point is “nobody is coming after your guns” agrument. Sure, not all one’s guns, just certain guns that were legally purchased in this state. Just the scary looking ones. Then, maybe later, semi auto sidearms, like every cop in this county carries, even the dog catcher. Then pump action shotguns. Then, nobody needs a double barreled shotgun for hunting. Then, nobody needs a Colt 45. Who needs a caliber that big? It pulverizes the deer meat. Only good for killing children. Then….. It’s what we call the slippery slope.
    Kinda like what is happening to free speech on government run college campuses. Nobody needs to denigrate another, that’s hate speech. Nobody needs to offend another, that’s hate and intolerable speech. You can’t say “ghetto” because it may be hurtful to those from the urban blight. In fact, spoken words are being placed on par with the physical act of violence and redefined as such. Just like “assault weapons” are being redefined. Can’t say “the projects” anymore, it’s racist. ……the slippery slope continues unabated. .
    First Amendment, 2nd, 4th and 5th….9th and 10th…all being eroded, all under attack. Without the 2nd, we are screwed. As the mayor of London recently cried out, “Nobody needs to carry a pocket knife. There is absolutely no reason to carry a pocket knife.” Let’s cut the crap. They are coming for guns “nobody needs to own a (fill in the blank)”. They are already coming. I hear ya knocking, but you can’t come in. Or yeah, that’s point 4 🙂

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  10. Gregory Avatar
    Gregory

    gr 1116am
    Let’s see… from the wiki, since it was a word I’d never seen used in this context…
    “Apologetics is the religious discipline of defending religious doctrines through systematic argumentation and discourse.”
    A bizarre application to change “apology” in a conversational claim to an “instantiation of apologetics” rather than the plain meaning of the word.
    I’ll leave the stretching exercises to you, George.

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  11. George Rebane Avatar

    apology, apologetics
    – “something that is said or written to defend something that other people criticize” ,” “a systematic argumentative defense” (Merriam-Webster)
    – “reasoned arguments or writings in justification of something”, “of the nature of a formal defense or justification of something such as a theory or religious doctrine”, “e.g. free market apologetics” (google dictionary)
    Apologies if such usage has been a stretch for some readers; henceforth it should no longer cause such discomfort.

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  12. jon smith Avatar
    jon smith

    Apolo is Greek to defend. Both apology and apologetics seem to use the root correctly.

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  13. scenes Avatar
    scenes

    “Apolo is Greek to defend.”
    That doesn’t seem quite right. ‘Apology’ and it’s brethren look like they have the term ‘logos’ in them. Maybe to defend with words?

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  14. jon smith Avatar
    jon smith

    scenes-
    You could very well be right. My Latin and Greek go way, way back.

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  15. Gregory Avatar
    Gregory

    “Apologies if such usage has been a stretch for some readers; henceforth it should no longer cause such discomfort”
    -gr 111pm
    No apology, singular or plural, are required, George, since I’m afraid you mistook my amusement for a discomfort, which it was not.
    As a barbarian, the mixing of Greek into a conversation taking place in modern American English takes some getting used to but I expect as soon as the need of the host to be seen to embarrass the visitor subsides, so will the Greek logos lesson subside.

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