Rebane's Ruminations
April 2016
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George Rebane

A continuing narrative on these pages has been the grossly asymmetric way that the Right (conservatives, libertarians) and Left (socialists, liberals) treat each other’s expression of ideas and beliefs in the public fora.  A corollary to this narrative is how narrow and broad are the spectra of news sources and commentaries that each side consumes.  This morning’s papers and news sites are chuck full of examples.

Comparing those of collectivist vs conservetarian bent, I ask –

• What’s the relative frequency of the Left vs Right assembling, organizing, and transporting a legion of hoodlums and rioters to block Right vs Left gatherings – political gatherings (e.g. here and here), conventions, economic conferences, religious meetings, … ?  (Here the progressive reader should do his best in the attempt to distinguish between a peaceful demonstration and a disruption requiring the presence of armed police to keep the peace).
• Which political cohort has subverted our educational system to become the outlet for disseminating their ideology and enforcing ‘correct thinking’ about every social issue of significance?
• Which political cohort has commandeered the humanities in the nation’s institutions of higher learning, and in the process created a generation of intellectually vapid students who must be actively and selectively shielded from politically incorrect, insensitive, and sometimes outrageous ideas and modes of thought?
• The congressional members of which party have politicized science and are now actively attacking corporations, think tanks, and scientific agencies to criminalize public skepticism of the causes and portents of global warming?
• People of which political philosophy are actively promoting policies and laws that continually diminish the public’s use of public lands and public waters.
• Which political extreme takes as ground truth that if an individual is only against government funding of some activity, then that is indisputable evidence that they are actively trying to proscribe or censor that activity per se.
• People of which political philosophy are actively promoting objectives and "sustainable development" policies which are stated (here) in the UN’s Agenda 21 (while vehemently denying that they are doing any such thing).


This list could go on and on.  But let me end with a little liberal bagatelle from the 30apr16 Union that published a letter from Ms Heidi Hall (here), liberal candidate for Nevada County’s District 1 Supervisor.  In there she castigated Mr Stan Meckler for pointing out that the “connections” she originally claimed “between Americans for Good Government and the Tea Party” were fallacious and even pernicious.  By her one-sided liberal logic – a version that supports its own brand of ‘reasoning’ in our society – if a certain party or parties who belong to organization A and then go on to found organization B, then it is OrgA that founded OrgB and are necessarily related in some material (i.e. “cynical and secretive”) way.  I won’t go into the sources from which she drew her information; expanding that thread here would add some out-of-scope humor.

But here’s the asymmetry, this kind of connections only work for people on the Right.  One must never claim that, say, just because George Soros is a Democrat, therefore his founding or funding of a number of leftwing organizations – e.g. Open Society Institute – means that the Democrat Party founded those organizations or has a material relationship with them.  And the same can never be said of the Democrat Party’s relationship with the Clinton Foundation just because the Billarys and other executives of the foundation are high-level Democrats.

So coming full circle – they ain’t like us.

[1may16 update]  This kind of post has usually elicited a more in-depth discussion of the nuances of ideological orientation – where we fit in the multifarious universe of socio-political beliefs and under what labels do we wish to be known.  And I’m happy to say that in that the above scribblings continue to serve.

In such discussions I cannot claim to stand on an alabaster pedestal of unvarnished truth, but only attempt to explain in a coherent and cogent way how the ideological landscape has appeared and made sense to me over a span of some six decades.  Some readers may be aware that I have a penchant for the operational/pragmatic scheme of things that successfully answers questions like ‘how can I tell if (insert proposition) is true or works or exists or …?’  For that reason I have made available my credo (q.v.), my teachers, my stance on issues, and what I have chosen to call myself.

Even though any real palette of political colors is much more complex than the widely and long accepted Left/Right spectrum, in most of the daily round we have to live with the established lexicon.  Unfortunately, in our effort to distinguish ourselves elevator speeches don’t permit many details, especially of the nuanced kind.  Fortunately in these pages we can go a bit, but still not much, beyond elevator communications.

An issue of interest here is how to understand and where to put people self-described as libertarians.  In the common lexicon of the day, libertarians are located to the right of center in the one-dimensional R/L spectrum (see graphic here).  But some time ago David Nolan and others sought make things more explicit and came up with various graphical representations of more complex political spectra.  The most popular and enduring is the Nolan Chart which has been much discussed in these pages over the years (e.g. here and here).  For images of such representations google ‘Nolan Chart’ and look at the images.

But the main conclusion here is that modern liberals and conservatives are quite a bit different than the people who claimed those labels in the 19th century – especially in its early part.  Conservatives hewed to various forms of autocracy represented by monarchical and empire forms of governance which included more or less strict behavioral guidelines usually enforced with the co-operation of the state’s religion.  Economies were strictly corporatist in which the state took its cut and in turn limited competition from entrepreneurial newcomers.

The (classical) liberals of that century were those who sought to follow the teachings of Enlightenment thinkers such as Bacon, Descartes, and Newton, and to compromise the contentions of such social philosophers as Locke and Hume (compare here) into a practical picture of man under beneficial governance – none more successfully than our Founders.  The American experience was studied, reported, and summarized by men like de Tocqueville and Bastiat, the latter’s distillation in The Law (q.v.) ranks high in the scriptural basis for today’s libertarians and conservatives.

In the latter 19th century the wing of post-monarchial liberals tended to a progressive amalgam of Hobbesian and Marxist worldviews and ultimately adopted the progressive label but also co-opted ‘liberal’ in the public mind.  Those who sought to retain (conserve) the teachings of the earlier classical liberals and differentiate themselves from the new breed of collectivists satisfied themselves with the ‘conservative’ label especially as they incorporated Anglo-Saxon cultural memes and the Christian religions into their expanded beliefs.

But highlighting a weakness of the Nolan chart, modern conservatives are not ‘low’ on personal freedoms, and hew more to what Bastiat taught and described in his nature of the individual living under beneficent governance.  So where old-time conservatives (e.g. Tories) wanted to, say, conserve the trappings of monarchy, the modern American conservative wants to conserve the originalism of the Constitution and the economic dynamism, entrepreneurialism, and individualism that was practiced in the 19th century.

Into all this in America arose a potpourri of political philosophies that grudgingly adopted the label of libertarian.  Those so moved and motivated were a disorganized lot.  Scholars studying the matter have concluded –

What it means to be a "libertarian" in a political sense is a contentious issue, especially among libertarians themselves. There is no single theory that can be safely identified as the libertarian theory, and probably no single principle or set of principles on which all libertarians can agree. Nevertheless, there is a certain family resemblance among libertarian theories that can serve as a framework for analysis.  (more here)

Today a leading source of libertarian light and cohesion is the Cato Institute which seeks to unify the various libertarian threads.  One of its scholars David Boaz has recently revised/written what may be considered a libertarian manifesto in his The Libertarian Mind (2015).  A very readable history of libertarianism can be accessed here.  (Full disclosure – I am a longtime supporter and member of the Cato Institute.)

Today most, but not all, the ideologically formed would assign libertarians to the Right in the simple everyday political spectrum.  Only in more detailed analyses do we separate libertarians from conservatives, and then not always successfully.  As mentioned above, the Nolan chart’s simplistic format low scores on personal freedoms are attributed to conservatives, a tenet which no modern conservative would accept.

Modern conservatives also eschew the religious restrictions of their forebears, and today promote free public expression of all religions – at least of all religions that do not promote the destruction of America as an obstacle to God’s plan for mankind.

Attempting to reconcile what conservatives and libertarians claimed as their own, I found a middle ground that I labeled conservetarian – being basically a libertarian with a conservative foreign policy outlook.  I could not go with my libertarian brethren who seem to promote the idea of a defenseless yet commercially successful and wealthy state surviving within a community of nations whose major hegemons have demonstrated their intent to violate the Westphalian convention (q.v.) at every opportunity.  Hence I am a conservetarian who promotes a kick-ass foreign policy rather than one of a kicked-ass kind.

Since my own declaration, conservetarianism has risen of its own accord within a community of other like-minded ideologues.  We now even claim a manifesto in Charles Cooke’s The Conservatarian Manifesto: Libertarians, Conservatives, and the Fight for the Right’s Future (2015), note the spelling variance.  Such an essay was required given that both the modern conservatives and liberals had equivalent documents they could cite.  For the liberals of an historically progressive bent I point you to the extensive oeuvre of Anthony Giddens’ socio-political writings that include what may be considered his summa in The Progressive Manifesto (2013).  I’m somewhat blown away that for a number of years the man was Director of the London School of Economics.

So in sum, I cannot claim to be anything more than a student of the exciting and important subject of socio-political philosophies and related disciplines that inform us how we build and maintain societies.  All such labeled philosophies are really fuzzy sets whose tenets are gathered, sometimes willy-nilly, by various pundits and proponents.  But almost all of them have leaked out of their carefully fashioned nests and are found to also populate other belief systems, many of which claim them as uniquely their own.  I tend to ideologically label people by what I see as the preponderance of their displayed attributes, and those primarily selected by how they walk instead of only talk.  And even in that I often err.

Finally, for anyone who thinks they have a well-formed ideology, especially one deserving of a name, I invite them to put down a dated comprehensive list of its tenets.  Absent that, all arguments of what this or that labeled ideologue may believe come with flaws, often tolerable but always congenital.

Some more of my previous scribblings on the topic that may be relevant can be found here, here, and here.

[5may16 update]  Heard Bernie Sanders on NPR this morning reveal his latest socialist shibboleth about what is corporate welfare.  The man told us that Walmart is a recipient of corporate welfare because some of its employees get checks from the government for various kinds of benefits for which they qualify.  With that broad brush he painted literally every employer in the country as a recipient of corporate welfare without even pausing to let his intellectually bereft constituents contemplate the larger and more comprehensive social perversion that he glibly purveys across the country.  And that is his ‘self-evident’ truth that an employer is responsible for supplying all the needs of his employees that money can buy.

To the extent that the employee gets remunerated or his needs satisfied from some other source(s), to that extent the employer is then subsidized by that/those source(s).  For those listening to Sanders, as for those who listened to Lenin, there is no need to stop and think before confirming again that capitalism and private enterprise are intrinsically evil – just move along there.

Posted in , ,

66 responses to “They sure ain’t like us (updated 5may16)”

  1. Gregory Avatar
    Gregory

    First, let’s clear up your error in the very first sentence… almost by definition, libertarians are not Right Wing. It’s easy for Left Wingnuts to label them so because they (we) are obviously anti-Left Wing, and to the Left, if you aren’t Left you’re on the other side. The Right claims libertarians as their own because Libertarianism is the source of all their good ideas without actually signing on to the freedoms that give social conservatives the willies and libertarians are, unlike the left, pleasant to talk to.
    You are, of course, spot on when describing the ultimately coercive nature of modern leftists who are closer to Stalinists than classic liberals, and have all but eliminated liberty from the equation, unless one is in one of the protected classes that aggravate social conservatives. I was absolutely shocked when visiting a retired K-12 music teacher’s home and finding he was a subscriber to National Review… he spent his entire career keeping his politics to himself, lest he end up on the sidelines or out on the street.
    It wasn’t all that long ago that the FUE was lecturing all how inappropriate it is for a candidate for a non-partisan office to have a shred of partisan political ambition, and now he’s pushing Hall, an activist Democrat who managed to pull in the father of Mann made global warming to endorse her.
    Anyone taking Professor Mann seriously should read Professor Curry’s posting here:
    https://judithcurry.com/2015/08/13/mark-steyns-new-book-on-michael-mann/
    One of the most to the point quotes is from physicist Jonathan Jones:

    My whole involvement has always been driven by concerns about the corruption of science. Like many people I was dragged into this by [Michael Mann’s] Hockey Stick. The Hockey Stick is an extraordinary claim which requires extraordinary evidence, so I started reading round the subject. And it soon became clear that the first extraordinary thing about the evidence for the Hockey Stick was how extraordinarily weak it was, and the second extraordinary thing was how desperate its defenders were to hide this fact. The Hockey Stick is obviously wrong. Climategate 2011 shows that even many of its most outspoken public defenders know it is obviously wrong. And yet it goes on being published and defended year after year. Do I expect you to publicly denounce the Hockey Stick as obvious drivel? Well yes, that’s what you should do. It is the job of scientists of integrity to expose pathological science. It is a litmus test of whether climate scientists are prepared to stand up against the bullying defenders of pathology in their midst.

    Hall has dragged this guy into our non-partisan County supervisor race, and I’m pretty sure it isn’t because he knows anything about Nevada County.

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  2. George Rebane Avatar

    Gregory 345pm – Well, I’ll take your critique of my “error” in the first sentence in the spirit it was offered. Yes, ideology is a multi-dimensional affair (I’ve covered the 2D variety in these pages many times), however, to communicate to the general, and most certainly leftwing, reader, I am placing libertarians in the same pot as conservatives as far as discussing the subsequent points of policy and behavior that distinguish the collectivists from the rest of us.

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  3. Russ Steele Avatar

    Progressives want to remove all guns from the general population. Removing guns from the general population will not change these findings, some people are born killers. Denying guns to people with mental disorders makes more sense, given the findings discussed below:
    Neuro-imaging of the brain patterns of habitual offenders shows different patterns of activity from “normal” people, scientists have found.
    A new study by Adrian Raine, a professor of criminology, psychiatry and psychology at the University of Pennsylvania, found diminished activity in areas of the brain linked with self-awareness, the processing of emotions and sensitivity to violence.
    In his new book, The Anatomy of Violence, Raine shows similar abnormalities occurring in lesser offenders, including aggressive adolescents, perpetrators of domestic violence and low-level, repeat offenders.
    “The findings suggest that many people currently being punished for their crimes cannot actually control their behaviour, and should be seen as suffering from a disorder that needs treatment,” said Raine.
    His research found criminals with psychopathic tendencies often had a shrunken ventromedial cortex – the area of the brain that controls decision-making.
    Habitual criminals who acted more on impulse commonly had an under-developed dorsolateral cortex – the area involved in learning from mistakes.
    “People with abnormalities here keep doing the same wrong things,” Raine told the Sunday Times.
    Research in the UK by Graeme Fairchild, a lecturer in clinical psychology at Southampton University, has shown that adolescents with aggressive conduct disorders often had a shrunken amygdala – the area governing emotions and morality.
    “People with severe forms of conduct disorder could be seen as having a brain development disorder, rather than just being evil,” said Fairchild. “If the parts of your brain involved in feeling guilt or empathy are damaged, then there is an issue of diminished responsibility. It is too early to use this in the courts, but we have to ask if they are truly to blame for their behaviour.”

    Progressive have similar brain disorders, they are incapable of understanding how the real world works, preferring to live a dream world. A perfect example of this is the belief that humans can control the climate, by controlling human CO2 emissions. Emissions that are but a sliver of natural CO2 emissions, which are so small they are almost impossible to measure. Yet progressive persist, passing legislation which forces human reductions in CO2 emissions, yet there is no viable scientific connection that human emissions of CO2 are significantly influencing the climate beyond natural variability. The only explanation for how progressives function is they have a brain disorder, a disorder that prevents them from observing the world as it exists and how it functions.

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  4. Russ Steele Avatar

    Bumped from the Sandbox with some edits:
    This is how the progressive play the intellectual game of data hide and seek.
    Research university hides results of fracking study which fails to prove it’s dangerous
    POSTED AT 5:01 PM ON APRIL 26, 2016 BY JAZZ SHAW
    What happens when a university research department is tasked with conducting a study of the harmful effects of fracking on ground water and other environmental concerns? Well, that depends on who provides their research money and what the results turn out to be. In the case of the University of Cincinnati, a lot of their funding comes from groups which have a vested interest in proving how harmful fracking is so it’s hardly a surprise that they lost interest in the study when it failed to produce any evidence of ground water contamination near commercial fracking sites.
    Jeff Stier, senior fellow and head of the Risk Analysis Division at the National Center for Public Policy Research in Washington provides a detailed report at Newsweek.
    Geologists at the University of Cincinnati just wrapped up a three-year investigation of hydraulic fracturing and its impact on local water supplies.
    The result? There’s no evidence – zero, zilch, nada – that fracking contaminates drinking water. Researchers hoped to keep these findings secret.
    Why would a public research university boasting a top-100 geology program deliberately hide its work? Because, as lead researcher Amy Townsend-Small explained, “our funders, the groups that had given us funding in the past, were a little disappointed in our results. They feel that fracking is scary and so they were hoping our data could point to a reason to ban it.”

    So, if the results do not support the progressive hypothesis, it is OK to hide the results. Especially if the researchers want some funding in the future. One has to ask, how many AGW studies showing it is null and void have been hidden, to keep the research money flowing?

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  5. Gregory Avatar
    Gregory

    The problem is, George, is that libertarians really aren’t conservatives and too many Republicans also keep forgetting that conservative and Republican aren’t synonyms, either.
    Yes, libertarians and Republicans are natural allies against leftists, but that does not make libertarians right wingers. And please, not to call leftists liberals, because they aren’t in much the same way Progressives aren’t progressive.
    Libertarians are best thought of as radical moderates, at least as far as the modern right-left one dimensional model goes.

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  6. Bill Tozer Avatar
    Bill Tozer

    They sure ain’t like us and its pushback time. The time is rapidly approaching to put the gloves on. Talking almost over. The Titans will meet this November. We will see if they bleed red white and blue like us, or red white and green as rumored.
    https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=I6eQ78HCGEA

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  7. Russ Steele Avatar

    Here is Professor Richard Lindzen explaining how the global warmers are sure not like us:
    Climate change is an urgent topic of discussion among politicians, journalists and celebrities…but what do scientists say about climate change? Does the data validate those who say humans are causing the earth to catastrophically warm? Richard Lindzen, an MIT atmospheric physicist and one of the world’s leading climatologists, summarizes the science behind climate change.
    Video is here: https://youtu.be/OwqIy8Ikv-c

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  8. George Rebane Avatar

    Gregory 513pm – These pages attest that most of us are more than up on the nuances you expand. In today’s de facto ideological duopoly libertarians are seen as rightwingers, and most RR readers also understand that progressives are ideologically sclerotic reprobates who have co-opted the diametrically opposite label as prescribed first by Lenin and then by succeeding acolytes like Alinsky. Nevertheless, it’s in the current lexicon, and your frustration with usage is the same as mine when I explain the particulars of ‘preventable global warming’ and the terribly inappropriate use of ‘illegal immigrant’ or even ‘undocumented Americans’. With equal determination we both seem to be pissing in the wind.

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  9. Gregory Avatar
    Gregory

    George, it’s a whole lot simpler than your analysis: I know I’m not “right wing” and I am offended when so mislabled.

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  10. George Rebane Avatar

    Gregory 918pm – Great. Let’s see your simple analysis. I live to learn.
    And as far as being offended, I think in today’s world you’ll have to live with it. May such an offense be one of your biggest problems.

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  11. Gregory Avatar
    Gregory

    It doesn’t take an analysis, George. Refer to any Nolan Chart… half of the scope of libertarian range is on the left, and half is on the right. As a group, we aren’t “right wing”.
    I can take the co-opting of the term “liberal” by leftist “progressives” thanks to the journalistic left’s control of he language, but the appropriation of “libertarian” by the conservative right isn’t appropriate.

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  12. Bill Tozer Avatar
    Bill Tozer

    • Which political cohort has commandeered the humanities in the nation’s institutions of higher learning, and in the process created a generation of intellectually vapid students who must be actively and selectively shielded from politically incorrect, insensitive, and sometimes outrageous ideas and modes of thought?
    Geeze Dr. Rebane, that is a tough one. Need more research and not just andedotal stories to figure this one out. Is it saying “American is the land of opportunity” a big no-no on campuses because some might see that was exclusive? No, that is not evidence. Hmmm. I will get back to you on this puzzle.

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  13. George Rebane Avatar

    I copied this comment from the 29apr16 sandbox. It seemed to also have relevance here.
    re BillT’s 558am – Does anyone else wonder why our leftwing cannot connect the dots from the global experience with socialism to what WILL certainly happen here when such policies are finally put in place in America? The harbingers are already visible wherever one looks. All my life I’ve wondered what special kind of intellectual blindness afflicts these people. From the carefully camouflaged studies that are being done (e.g. the functional MRI imaging of Left v Right brains asked to solve/answer the same problems) the conclusion emerges that the differences in our brains has a clinical basis. That explains why they are immune to remediation through normal educational pathways.

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  14. Anthony Kropotkin Avatar

    From my armchair on the patio I can’t help but laugh.
    I could document dozens of examples of right wing groups interfering with events, funerals by the westboro baptists, pro-abortion events by planned parenthood interrupted by anti-abortion demonstrators or even just entering an abortion providers medical offices, or even prayer services interrupted by racially motivated shooters.
    The education system is dominated professors who advance theories of governance and economics that never question free market thinking. I have seen them first hand in my work around energy economics. They are the majority in any business school even at ‘liberal’ universities. Our history curriculum continue to be enamored with the strange belief in American Exceptionalism that creeps onto these pages disguised as a desire to make America great again. How illogical is that? Either we are great and that is what makes us exceptional or we are not great and thus not exceptional,
    Shielded by political correctness or not the shielding takes place on both the left and the right, and through it all this generation of Americans is the most highly educated, has the highest percentage of advanced degrees, and tests hirer than almost any generation in American history.
    At no time in recent history have we had a Congress more focused on resisting a more scientifically supported theory of change than in this Republican Congress where despite evidence presented by almost every government agency and non governmental scientific association and clear dominant support in the international scientific community they continue to question and fail to act on anthropogenic causes of climate change.
    Public lands under every modern interpretation of traditional American legal doctrine belong to all of the people and the right to manage those lands is created in the Constitution, numerous treaties ceding land to the United States and in every state Constitution as it joined the nation. No one group has an inherent right to use public lands in a way that diminishes its value for another group without due process and ultimately federal authority to make the final decision.
    Every citizen has the right to equal consideration under the law, and that includes equal consideration of benefits such as health care regardless of another citizens supposed moral objection.
    Somewhere in the process of becoming Dr. Rebane the good doctor appears to have lost his way on both logic and scientific process. His groping in the dark for the path back to truth seems once again to have hit the wall of ideology.

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  15. Bill Tozer Avatar
    Bill Tozer

    They sure aren’t like us. That is exactly what Bill and Hillary are saying about the good people of West Virginnie.
    Former President Bill Clinton drew boos and shouts from the crowd as he made a campaign stop in Logan, West Virginia, on his wife’s behalf, ahead of the state’s May 10 presidential primary.
    Supporters of Democrat Bernie Sanders and Republican candidate Donald Trump gathered outside the school as Clinton spoke Sunday. According to WVNS-TV, a letter written on behalf of Logan officials told U.S. Sen. Joe Manchin’s staff in an email that Bill and Hillary Clinton “are simply not welcome in our city.” SF Gate

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  16. Paul Emery Avatar
    Paul Emery

    George
    In light of all the enlightened characteristics you attribute to Conservatives how do you explain the ascension of Donald Trump as the best possible option for President as selected by the Republican Party, the party of Conservative Americans.
    I completely disagree that Libertarians are conservatives. Quite the opposite. The Republicans are flag wavers for government intrusion in our private lives, locally being their support for Measure W and Sheriff Royal which advocates flyovers and photographs of private property to check if you may be growing illegal plants. the Democrats do not support that intrusion in our private affairs.

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  17. Todd Juvinall Avatar

    PE. “The Republicans are flag wavers for government intrusion in our private lives”. Please give us all some examples of your statement above.

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  18. George Rebane Avatar

    PaulE 142pm – I invite you to reformulate your question after reading this posts 1may16 update.

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  19. jon smith Avatar
    jon smith

    Example: Flag waving Republicans as a group are opposed the an individual’s right to grow a marijuana plant on their private property and smoke that plant within the sanctity of their own home. As a group I know few liberals and even fewer Libertarians who espouse that level of overt intrusion on one’s personal life.

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  20. jon smith Avatar
    jon smith

    I could just as easily name liberal intrusions on private lives, but that wasn’t the question.

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  21. George Rebane Avatar

    This discussion would go much better if the parties would learn to differentiate the meanings of ‘Republican’, ‘conservative’, and ‘libertarian’, and also know the difference between ‘libertarian’ and ‘Libertarian’. The same remarks apply to the terms in the menagerie of the Left.

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  22. Jon Dozer Avatar
    Jon Dozer

    Hey Todd, Paul Emery just gave you two local examples of Republican support for government intrusion right before you posted. Was there a problem in your reading today?
    The leaders of the Patriot Act and all the various NSA programs- initiated by Republican legislation in Congress and by the Bush Administration.
    The War on Drugs- Republican led for decades.
    Abortion restrictions of every conceivable kind? REPUBLICAN to the core.

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  23. jon smith Avatar
    jon smith

    Please allow me to amend my statement to allay the apparent confusion of a certain member or certain members of this audience: I am not aware of any political party other than the (flag waiving) Republicans who so overwhemlingly believe it is their duty to prevent anyone from growing an herb in their garden and using it in the sanctity of their own home.

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  24. Don Bessee Avatar
    Don Bessee

    PE- Weed is still illegal in CA and on the Federal level. Its only for the truly sick who now have to get an OK from their real doctor who sends them for blood tests and such. There is no civil right to grow weed. The CA supreme court has made it clear there is no CA constitutional right to weed.
    So save us the we just wanna grow a plant man crap.
    The medical end of the spectrum will never get taken seriously until they shun the gangster growers, plain and simple. It may take years.
    Don’t bet on the parker weed legalization initiative winning, the local asa types and the wanna be small for profit growers hate it.
    Its the same on a state level. 😉

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  25. Todd Juvinall Avatar

    Jon Dozer | 01 May 2016 at 03:02 PM
    Well Mr. troll, I certainly disagree with your view (you appear to have little to no reading comprehension). The country had a democrat President and a democrat House and Senate and could simply have booted the “Patriot Act” and changed the law on any “NSA” snooping. But hey, the liberal pals of yours did not. Please explain the liberal democrats failure to do your bidding troll and PE.
    Also, for JSmith, has it not been the democarts that have made tobacco use a monster piranha and passed thousands of bills to “protect” second hand smoke breathers? How about now on the radio you are pushing a law to ban apartment dweller the right to smoke a cig in their apartments? I think you libs are the true fascists since it is your ilk that have passed all these laws to curtail individual rights. Not the right. And what about letting men and boys into the girls restrooms and locker rooms. No vote in the affirmative from a “righty” All yours Jon Smith. So it appears your ilk are the traitors to individual rights. We on the right fight hard against you but you seem to be winning the votes to enslave. California is run by you twits and look at the mess. All yours bub.

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  26. George Rebane Avatar

    Couldn’t have said it better than ToddJ’s 417pm, but would add that it is overwhelmingly the Democrats who have instituted laws and regs that determine and prescribe almost every aspect of our public and private lives. To do so is immortalized in their seminal scriptures and has been since Marx and Engels first put pen to paper. No conservative, libertarian, and most certainly no conservetarian gives a big rat’s ass what consenting adults do in private.

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  27. Don Bessee Avatar
    Don Bessee

    The ‘jon’ by any other name still smells the same. 😉

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  28. Jon Dozer Avatar
    Jon Dozer

    “And what about letting men and boys into the girls restrooms and locker rooms”. Todd
    Glad you brought that up. Another GOP overreach. You really want Caitlyn Jenner going into a boys bathroom? I DON’T! A full-blown female in a dress should not be in the mens or boys room.
    btw, not jon smith. That is a different person. Thanks.

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  29. jon smith Avatar
    jon smith

    Todd- Let me repeat myself: “I could just as easily named liberal intrusions on private lives, but that wasn’t the question.”

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  30. Todd Juvinall Avatar

    Dozer, Kaitlyn still has a penis. You want your daughter in the same bathroom? If so, go for it.
    Jon Smith, then why not not expose both? You are simply a lib and will protect your ilk.

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  31. jon smith Avatar
    jon smith

    Todd- You explicitly asked for examples of flag waving Republican. I answered your question. Sorry you couldn’t handle my answer.

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  32. Paul Emery Avatar
    Paul Emery

    So Don I take it you have no problem with the Sheriffs Dept flying over private property and taking detailed photo’s of back yards in their enforcement of civil ordinances?

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  33. Don Bessee Avatar
    Don Bessee

    Can we say google earth PE?

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  34. George Rebane Avatar

    From the air the surface of your property is not private, nor has it been since man learned to fly. No one has even contended that. Now if the sheriff hovers the drone outside your window and looks in, that has yet to be adjudicated. I vote that some volume of space that covers your real estate be declared private property that one can look through but cannot look from within it. Thoughts on this?
    PS. All other questions seem to be attempts at ‘gotcha questions’ instead of addressing the new problems that advancing technologies make possible.

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  35. Todd Juvinall Avatar

    jon smith | 01 May 2016 at 06:29 PM
    {lease [point to where I asked you for examples (explicitly) for flag waving Republicans. We are the flag wavers. The libs burn the flags. I think you have mistaken your words from some other person. Jeeze, ganja?

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  36. Todd Juvinall Avatar

    Paul Emery is only concerned about MJ since he could care less his ilk has done all the same things to tobacco. He doesn’t care about the tobacco folks and their rights apparently.
    Regarding invasive laws on private property. Hey Paul E, what is your opinion on the state coming into the house and taking someone’s kids away to CPS?

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  37. George Rebane Avatar

    I apologize to Mr Anthony Kropotkin for not catching his 1257pm comment that TypePad had squirreled away in the spam folder. Mr Kropotkin’s liberal views are now available in this comment stream for due consideration.
    From a perusal of his comments, it appears that he is comfortably ensconced in his progressive universe the reality of which is markedly removed from the universe in which I am lost and groping for truth from which my ideology blinds me. It is a joy to witness such self-assured certitude denied the rest of us.

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  38. jon smith Avatar
    jon smith

    Todd@ 6:29.
    At 6:30 are you already too drunk to remember your question of 2:34?
    “The Republicans are flag wavers for government intrusion in our private lives”. Please give us all some examples of your statement above.
    I gave you an example. Sorry you couldn’t remember your own question.

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  39. Paul Emery Avatar
    Paul Emery

    Not gotcha questions George, just an attempt to access to what extent Don B. is willing to allow local constabulary freedom to access private property information randomly by air in pursuit of civil land use violations.

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  40. George Rebane Avatar

    PaulE 854pm – As was recently shown on 60 Minutes, the government and bad guys already monitor everything electronic that goes in/out of your house and your pocket. LE taking overhead pictures of your property is not new but will become more frequent and cheaper with drones. I’m not sure that anything at all can be done about that at this stage. We are a comprehensively monitored and tracked population.
    I will though take a drone in place of the Huey helicopter that hovered 20 feet above my lawn when we lived on Saddlepeak Rd in the Santa Monica Mtns. I had a vegetable greenhouse on a third floor deck that they thought was a MJ grow. So they hovered there and took pictures while blowing the living crap out of Jo Ann’s flower gardens and scattering lawn furniture. No one came back to ask whether they should pay us for the damage they caused. That is the hubris of Leviathan.

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  41. Anthony Kropotkin Avatar

    “From the air the surface of your property is not private, nor has it been since man learned to fly. No one has even contended that. Now if the sheriff hovers the drone outside your window and looks in, that has yet to be adjudicated. I vote that some volume of space that covers your real estate be declared private property that one can look through but cannot look from within it. Thoughts on this?”
    My thought on this are the Dr. Rebane is correct that aerial space and photography as a result is not private. I seem to remember that that is not the position some here did not share when NH 2020 used analysis of vegetation cover to analyze species habitat and other natural resources.
    Is it rational to contend aerial photography is legal for one purpose but not for another?

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  42. Russ Steele Avatar

    Why is the Left hostile to Western civilization?
    After decades of considering this question, the answer Dennis Prager concluded is: standards.
    The Left hates standards – moral standards, artistic standards, cultural standards.
    The West is built on all three, and has excelled in all three.
    Why does the Left hate standards? It hates standards because when there are standards, there is judgment. And Leftists don’t want to be judged.

    http://www.nationalreview.com/article/434549/left-western-civilization-case-hatred

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  43. Paul Emery Avatar
    Paul Emery

    George
    Certainly those that condone Measure W (including the Nevada County Republican party) do so condoning the tactics used to enforce this land use ordinance. Crickets from Don B on this one.

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  44. Name not listed.... Avatar
    Name not listed….

    I guess when your Sheriff lies he’s supported by mentally ill people as well as the rest of the Republican party who accept his lies as God’s truth!

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  45. George Rebane Avatar

    Name not 1135am – Since you’re not a resident of Nevada County, what lies has our Sheriff Royal told?

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  46. Walt Avatar

    Paul’s ” willing to allow local constabulary freedom to access private property information randomly by air in pursuit of civil land use violations.”
    OH,, You mean like NH2020? Remember the county “fence jumpers” looking for “endangered” whatevers? The LIB ECO brigade was all for those instructions.

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  47. Russ Steele Avatar

    Walt@05:43PM
    The libs were some of the very first users of drones to spy on bird hunters in Texas. These hunters were the first to shoot down a spying econuts drone, and then the court battle started. Drone spying is OK if it for an econuts cause, but not for monitoring illegal grows by the government or neighbors.

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  48. Paul Emery Avatar
    Paul Emery

    Walt
    I never was a supporter of NH2020. I’m surprised you support Measure W that uses the same tactics to intrude on peoples privacy in their backyards.
    George
    What is your view of the takeover of the Republican party and it’s Conservative traditions that go back to Barry Goldwater and William Buckley by the Trumpster who is in no way a Conservative by any measurement of his history or dogma.

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  49. Jon Dozer Avatar
    Jon Dozer

    Saw that Drumpf supporter today on video stand there and confront Ted Cruz like yesterday’s trash. No thinking, no reasoning, just a terrifying willingness to FOLLOW, and to believe the BS and the TV Celebrity Messiah who is Drumpf. Made me almost feel sorry for Ted Cruz, who in his own far right, evangelical-based world, is an intelligent, well spoken, well educated person. A college econ professor of mine back in the day, a fine man and scholar, was a holocaust survivor, and always warned us about charletans like Drumpf. They come along every so often to lead on a non-thinking mass of followers like that moron in Indiana today. Worse than suckers. Its playing to the worst human fears and vulnerabilities.

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  50. Russ Steele Avatar

    March 13, 2016
    Hillary Clinton: “We Are Going To Put A Lot Of Coal Miners & Coal Companies Out Of Business”
    https://youtu.be/ksIXqxpQNt0
    Now, less than two months later, she claims she wants to see coal “continued to be sold and continued to be mined.”
    https://youtu.be/QcPkEWqGG2A
    So, which Hillary do you believe? I am voting for the first one, the one that supports Obama’s desire to shut down the coal industry.

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