Rebane's Ruminations
March 2016
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George Rebane

[This is the linked transcript of my regular KVMR commentary broadcast on 18 March 2016.]

Legalization of marijuana is making progress by fits and starts across the nation.  I want to talk about how those fits and starts are taking place here in Nevada County where marijuana or MJ has long been the county’s leading albeit illegal cash crop.  The country’s MJ laws are a mess, with the feds totally outlawing the weed along with its commercial relatives like hemp.  And the states (California) have their own laws that permit various methods of production and types of consumption which specify how everything from recreational marijuana or RMJ to medical marijuana or MMJ can be used.  Then come the counties making their own rules about growing and consuming RMJ and MMJ, rules that somehow have to dovetail, sidestep, or totally ignore what higher jurisdictions already have in place, or are planning for the near term.  As I said, it is a mess, and one that is entirely created by government.

Most of us know that our Board of Supervisors have put Measure W on the June ballot.  Its passage promises to supersede the emergency MJ ordinance now in place, and legalize limited indoor MMJ grows to provide the plant for medicinal uses.  The anti-MJ folks, led by Smart Approaches to Marijuana (SAM), are promoting Measure W since it not only outlaws outdoor grows, but all “commercial cultivation and other commercial cannabis activities”, and permits only limited indoor growing of MMJ “for medicinal purposes”.


SAM argues that any large scale MMJ grows will provide profitable product for RMJ use and will continue the nuisance aspects of the marijuana culture that is evident in the county.  Additionally such grows impede the county’s economic development as told by our sheriff.

The anti-W people are organized under Americans for Safe Access (ASA) which promotes MMJ cultivation and use.  They argue that W is totally inadequate for local supply of the types and quantities of the plant to satisfy the needs of local patients.  They discount the impact of MMJ leakage to RMJ, stating that such uses are already illegal and law enforcement should just continue to deal with it.

It is evident to most that neither side knows the actual dimensions of the problem they are trying to solve.  Their arguments can be reduced to pro-W people asking ‘Why should neighborhoods suffer?’, and the anti-W folks countering with ‘Why should kids suffer?’  And so they both go on generating heat without shedding much light on the debate.

Stepping back, it is easy to see that all social issues become reasonable concerns only when we know the numbers that define their scope, size, locales, and impacted populations.  Without defining parameters, debates about such issues never go beyond the anecdotal, the emotional, and the demagoguery that serve other agendas.  Nevada County’s marijuana debate is a poster child that confirms this.  Absent the numbers, the inevitable result is more bad laws, regulations, and ordinances.

To date we know neither the scope nor extent of the neighborhood problem save that there have been neighbors’ complaints about bad smells and increases in unsavory traffic.  And the ‘smoke free zone’ in Nevada City is a farce that any visitor can smell as they walk the city’s streets and see smokers tucked away in doorways and other shielded places.

And the medical problem is known only by anecdotal accounts of this child or that sufferer whose life has been spared or made tolerable by the steady consumption of an exotic marijuana concoction produced locally in someone’s garage or house.  These are the ‘medicines’ which ASA claims the county tries to deny the ill and afflicted.  But we voters have no idea how many people will then suffer or die if they can’t get such locally produced ‘product’.

Until both sides bring voters some reasonable estimates of the scope of the problems they describe, Measure W will be one more exercise of public emotions playing out in the voting booth. The result will not satisfy anyone or acknowledge the country’s changing sentiment toward drugs, and the new laws that will regulate and tax their production and use.

My name is Rebane, and I also expand on this and related themes on Rebane’s Ruminations where the transcript of this commentary is posted with relevant links, and where such issues are debated extensively.  However my views are not necessarily shared by KVMR.  Thank you for listening.

[19mar16 update]  We saw our friend and RR reader RL ‘Bob’ Crabb’s regular Saturday contribution in this morning’s Union, and immediately decided to filch it for an appropriate addendum to the above commentary.  Thanks Bob.

RLCrabb160319

[24mar16 update] In the 24mar16 Union Bob Miller of Grass Valley writes ‘Both sides of marijuana debate have explaining to do’ wherein he takes to task MMJ proponents like Ms Patricia Smith who opposes Measure W, and the Board of Supervisors who promote it. It is a well written piece that I happen to wholly agree with, especially when he also calls on our county leaders to lead.  Mr Miller concludes – “Finally, putting Measure W on the ballot instead of leaving the ordinance amendable by the board guarantees should any unintended consequences arise they won’t be easily undone. We elected you to lead wisely. We do not accept that wisdom would ever consider throwing such a critical measure on the ballot before it’s been proven workable. Having to admit later, ‘The people have already spoken. We can do nothing about it now’ won’t cut it.”

 

Posted in , , ,

94 responses to “Legal Marijuana is Coming (updated 24mar16)”

  1. Don Bessee Avatar
    Don Bessee

    Dr. R. There are other significant harms issues that are well known and richly documented by various agencies and medical/prevention types. We could talk for a long time on the impacts of diversion and marketing to youth and its impact on their futures, sadly well established. Now we have alarming reports from local medical case managers of the numbers of pregnant and nursing mothers who test positive. You have the impacts from the carpet bagging pot profiteers who clear cut, grade and divert water and are profligate in their use of poisons and other chemicals that contaminate surface and ground water in a drought cycle.
    The harms to the environment and endangered and sensitive species that we have paid dearly already to preserve who’s gains are now reversed across the region are ignored. Then you have the predator food chain impacts like owls and marmots, foxes and so on.
    Even the Newsome report confirmed that there is NO NET FINANCIAL benefit to the budget from legalization because of all the societal costs as confirmed by the reality in CO.
    Properties are only rented to access the wells and never lived in, they suck the areas water and cart it off to commercial grows.
    The State has said 100 square feet of growing for a sick person is the standard now. The ASA signed off on AB266 and declared rainbows and unicorn at the time. The problem for them came when they realized that their insular world view was not shared by most municipalities across the state.
    W allows for a significantly greater amount of weed than that 100 sq feet. Think of a garage, 1 or 2 car size full of weed cycling crops all year, that’s a lot of weed for 1.
    People are sick and tired of the growers false narrative that we are organic, sustainable, vegan, earth friendly altruistic providers of life saving weed who do not profit illegally.
    People are not sure where those guys are but no one has them as neighbors.

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  2. Patricia Smith Avatar

    George, I would like to invite you (and any of your followrs with half an open mnd) to a presentation on April 20 at the Foothills Event Center. It’s called “Walk a Mile in their Shoes” and will feature several families who have children with epilepsy and a doctor who specilizes in CBD, the substance that has been so effective in treating seizure disporders.
    Please come see for yourself how this substance can and has saved lives and why these kids cannot wait for the pharmaceutical companies to catch up. Then you tell me if this child is a publicity stunt or a father’s urgent plea for his son’s life.
    It starts at 6:00pm.

    Like

  3. Don Bessee Avatar
    Don Bessee

    The fact they are doing this on April 20th, the pot holiday party day of 420 says it all.

    Like

  4. Michael R. Kest Avatar
    Michael R. Kest

    Don Bessee 18Mar16 07:33 PM
    Just as most of the problems with marijuana are the result of its prohibition, so are the environmental damages you cite. Legalization would allow legitimate farmers to grow marijuana as a regulated crop and the damages would be eliminated.

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  5. Brad C. Avatar
    Brad C.

    Don B.’s rants are all about fear and control of others, and a little too “Reefer Madness” for me to get worked up about. He argues for more regulation and less personal freedom.
    His fear based charges, “they are marketing MJ to kids”, etc., etc. is an old refrain. The same nanny state charges have been levied about music lyrics, TV content, Joe Camel cigarette ads, soda pop flavored alcoholic beverages, etc. What else is new? These things get worked out though education, parental involvement, ABC, ATF regulations, etc.
    His “evironmental damages” charges are also fear based and obviously biased. Does he not think any other ag practices have resulted in adverse environmental consequences? Do rice, almond, cotton, etc. farmers use water? Do golf courses use water, fertilizers, herbicides, etc.? MJ is just another crop.
    Don should try to calm down and let the market work itself out. We already have plenty of regulations in place to protect ourselves provided by CARB, EPA, USDA, Water Quality Control Board, etc. We are already over-regulating the MJ industry. People have been using MJ worldwide for thousands of years and locally it has been popular for at least a half a century. What is the big deal?

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  6. Bill Toze Avatar
    Bill Toze

    Brad C does have a point. I remember watching some show on the old black and white TV when Elvis came on and started doing his thing. My Mom rushed in, turned off the TV saying his hip thrusts was vulgar. Hmm, what got into her?
    The environmental degradation is due to those low life piece of shit Mexican Nationals growing on public lands. It really gets my dander up when reports of dumping poisons into the watershed and…..drum roll please….what chaps my hide more than anything is they are killing Bambi, Yogi, and even little Boo-Boo to protect their crops and themselves. Shame on them. We the People should not convict them for growing on public lands, but throw the book at them for Fish and Game violations. That will really put the hurts on them with some nasty expensive teeth.
    But, all in all, that is a public land issue, (State and Feds) not to be confused with what is going on on little private plots of land. Sure, some are sucking wells dry which may or may not affect other neighbors in the short term. Some are impacted, no doubt.
    I just do not completely buy the environmental damage argument in total. Heck, a home changes the environments’s micro-system as well as a butt ugly field of those hideous solar panels. Bad for the birds, bad for the bugs that once sheltered in the brush.
    This specific environmental point I make is neither pro or con outdoor growing of the Sacred Marihuana Annual. Just think about it. If the Sacred Marihuana Herb was so bad for the environment, would not the Mean Green Tree Hugging Machine be dragging people into court, the EPA up in arms, and the Sierra Club suing the hide off the growers? Nah, if it is ok with the dirt and crystal worshippers, then it must be ok, right?

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  7. Patricia Smith Avatar

    Bessee (3/18, 7:33pm) shows his bias again! Every single issue he raised is dealt with in the new state regulations (MMRSA) that he is so opposed to – including environmental hazards, water therft, diversion to minors, etc. Regulations will keep us safer than prohibiton ever will (because it doesn’t work).
    We know that his Project SAM org is funded by Purdue Pharmaceuticals (among others) who make one of the most deadly drugs ever introduced to mankind (OxyContin). By opposing marijuana for his corporate sponsors (who stand to lose a lot of money if MMJ is legalized), he is condoning the widespread use of opioid painkillers that have claimed the lives of thousands of minors. (BTW, states that have legalized MMJ have 25% fewer accidental overdoses than states where it remins illegal.)
    SAM didn’t speak out against Purdue increasing the strength of their poison pills from 10mg to 160mg, nor did SAM object when they lobbied to lower the age of users to 11 years old! So his concern for children possibly getting into marijuana is a little questionable since no one has ever died from using marijuana. SOMEHOW SAM WAS STRANGLY QUIET WHEN PURDUE WAS FINED $600 MULLION FOR FALSELY CLAIMING OXYCONTIN WAS RESISTENT TO ABUSE – AND THEN DOUBLED THEIR SALES FORCE TO GET MORE DOCTOS TO WRITE MORE PRESCRIPTIONS. (It’s pharmcuetical heroin)
    There is no question that MMJ has helped millions of patients find relief from a vast array of maladies. We need to find a way to accomodate the needs of patients with the rights of homeowners, but no one can tell me that a few dozen plants on 60 acres is a nuisance to anyone – unless they are so uptight that they insist EVERYONE live exactly as they mandate.
    Is this the type County you want to live in? (if you answered yes, think about when the PC police get around to you!

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  8. Martin W. Avatar
    Martin W.

    Hi George. It’s Martin, the gentleman that spoke at Keith Royal’s Measure S event in the BOS chambers one night a couple years ago when the two sides refused to have a debate. If you recall, he walked up and asked me to speak 5 mins before it started, so I was somewhat unprepared and spoke from my heart and off the top of my head, but you and I chatted briefly afterwards. I enjoyed our conversation and have been meaning to seek you out regarding W.
    Measure W is just like S in the sense that it is a ballot measure that will set a specific policy in stone and be a challenge to adjust as time goes on and society shifts. As you point out, I think we can all agree that the issue of MJ is complex and changing, with laws and policies being reworked at all levels: fed, state and local. We need local policies that are flexible and reflect the changing times, not inflexible rules that will require more and more ballot measures for decades to come every time we want to enact a change. I call Measure W the Nevada County Cannabis Policy Tax measure, because it ensures local taxpayers will be forced to spend tens of thousands of dollars putting changes on the ballot time and time again, every time it gets adjusted away from the original intent (i.e. total outdoor ban, total commercial ban). Not good govt. Regardless of how someone feels about MJ, this is bad policy and should be voted down just for that reason alone.
    Anyhoo, I’ve been seeing you ask for data and I have been putting some estimated data out there in selected audiences and would like to share it now with you for your vetting. Pardon the repetition below, but it was easier to copy and paste than retype the whole thing over. This is from a FB post, which contained a copy and paste of info I had put in an email to a specific group, regarding # of MMJ patients in NevCo, as week as MJ garden estimates. No one knows how many of either there are and it is impossible to know an exact number. However, we can certainly make some educated guesses, which is what I do below, with references to sources of info:
    People have asked about my sources and figures regarding number of patients, number of gardens, number of complaints, and number of compliance check visits in NevCo that I keep putting out, showing approx 90-95% of gardens in NevCo are not generating anonymous complaints and that of the 5-10% that are, the Sheriff has only been able to inspect less than half, making the ban perhaps unnecessary and unenforceable without massive scale ups in law enforcement and either new heavy taxes to pay for the req’d level of enforcement, or reductions in other safety efforts community wide. Here’s the deal:
    PATIENTS
    No one knows how many legal MMJ patients we have. That is protected by doctor/patient confidentiality. We can’t go looking through physicians’ medical records and there is no patient registry here. And there are likely a dozen different doctors from all over the state that have our local citizens covered. That being said, there are studies that have been done, showing anywhere from 2-5% of the CA population are MMJ patients. See sources below.
    GARDENS
    No one knows how many gardens we have. There are big and small, legal and illegal. The Sheriff’s office probably has the widest eye on the situation but even they can’t catalog every single garden in the county, especially the indoor ones. But again that being said, we can extrapolate from the # of patients. I believe we likely have 4,000-5,000 patients, but not all are growing. However, then add in all the illegal gardens and I suspect we have 3,000-4,000 gardens. The NCSO would likely agree that we are at least in the thousands. See sources below.
    COMPLAINTS & VISITS
    Now when it comes to complaints and compliance checks, the NCSO allowed The Union to publish the numbers from the last 3 years in an article about trimmigrants on 10/5/15. That data is not disputed. See sources below. With all this in mind, it seems that 90-95% of gardens in Nevada County do not generate any anonymous complaints and are apparently not a nuisance to neighbors enough to trigger a complaint. This flies in the face of statements at the county level that most growers did not comply with the old ordinance and thus need to be chopped down as a nuisance. (Note: There is no tangible evidence that significant amounts of people are scared of calling in complaints and thus skewing the complaint numbers, and there is no evidence of any neighbor or grower retaliation due to complaints. There is however some evidence that the NCSO is responsible for an unknown amount of the complaints, as mentioned in the recent BOS mtgs.)
    Here is what sent out in an email regarding all of this…just copying and pasting with my sources:
    SOURCE FOR COMPLAINTS AND COMPLIANCE CHECKS
    My numbers on county complaints and compliance checks came from here:
    http://www.theunion.com/news/18501875-113/transplants-a-growing-problem-in-nevada-county-marijuana
    …which shows complete data reported from NCSO for 2013, 2014 and 2015 in the sidebar. Note that it refers to “265 complaints as of Oct 27 (2015),” even though the article was written 3 weeks prior on Oct 5th (2015). Must be a psychic. So then I picked up this article from January, where they upped it to 332 complaints as of Oct 27 (2015). The number of compliance checks and abatement notices served matched in both articles, but the number of complaints went up. I’m assuming the original Oct article should’ve said “265 complaints as of Oct 4.”
    http://www.theunion.com/news/20119772-113/nevada-county-marijuana-supes-pass-outdoor-grow-ban
    SOURCE FOR NUMBER OF PATIENTS
    As far as number of MMJ patients in the county, there are different studies citing anywhere from 2-5% of the CA population are qualified patients. One study was done in the past couple of years in Sac area:
    http://canorml.org/news/cbcsurvey2011.html
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/25255903
    I believe we have a higher-than-avg rate of legal MMJ use in NevCo, so I am assuming 4-5% of our population are users, therefore the 4,000-5,000 number. Years ago, back in 2001 when I was counseling the previous DA Mike Ferguson on his regs, I reached out to the various MMJ doctors in practice at that time and asked for an estimate on number of NevCo patients. I polled Dr. Denney, Dr. Turnipseed, Dr. Fry and Dr. Bansiter. Based on their combined estimates we had around 2,000-3,000 patients…15 yrs ago, when Prop 215 was only a few years old.
    SOURCE FOR NUMBER OF GARDENS
    I am not assuming every patient is a grower, so downgraded 4,000-5,000 patients as equalling 3,000-4,000 gardens. The number could be much higher, especially when factoring in non-patient gardens. Law enforcement is vague at best, but generally acknowledges thousands of gardens exist.
    I feel these are reasonable assumptions based on the best available data, since we do not have an actual state registry to verify numbers of patients, or a county garden registry to verify number of gardens.

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  9. Martin W. Avatar
    Martin W.

    [typo in paragraph 3]
    …regarding # of MMJ patients in NevCo, as “WELL” as MJ garden estimates.

    Like

  10. George Rebane Avatar

    MartinW 942am – Thank you for sharing the data and your commentary with RR readers. Please bring more when you have it, and if you wish, feel free to send me a byline that I can post.
    I’m on record here stating that however the county decides to deal with MJ, going the ‘stone tablets from Sinai’ route is not the proper way to handle it. Our BoS should have balls to craft an ordinance that can be more easily modified by subsequent boards as the country and CA continues learning about the problems and benefits of widespread MMJ and RMJ production and distribution.
    BTW, I’m not as sanguine as you about that “90-95% of gardens in NevCo are not generating anonymous complaints …”. Since your total number of gardens is, say, 8K (am doubling your MMJ number for total MJ gardens), then approximately 400-800 gardens are generating such complaints. To me and many others in the county, this is an extremely high number of such nuisance gardens, which number may actually be much higher since people have told the sheriff that not every neighbor so afflicted calls in their complaint.
    Also, am a bit astounded by your count of the county’s MMJ patients. How do all these patients and caregivers know how to produce the various MMJ concoctions, some quite exotic, that Ms Smith has told us the patients need.
    And with such a huge CA population (3-4M by your numbers) of MMJ users, would this not be a sufficient market to attract big pharma to legally satisfy such demand?

    Like

  11. Martin W. Avatar
    Martin W.

    So to condense the info:
    Potential # of MJ gardens in NevCo: 4,000
    Max # of complaints logged in one year (2013): 379
    Max # of compliance checks in one year (2015): 126
    So in the past 3 years, “anonymous” complaints have ranged from 231-379 per year (with the past 2 yrs showing much fewer than 3 yrs ago). This represents 5-10% of approx gardens.
    Same 3-yr time frame, actual compliance checks have ranged from 96-126 (less than half the # of the complaints!).
    This would tend to show law enforcement and county are only visiting and recording a small fraction of gardens out there, maybe 2-3%, and these are likely the worst players. No one is calling NCSO regarding a good neighbor, and the county is not recording the gardens that generate no complaints and are not a nuisance to neighbors, so the multitude of 97-98% are being judged by the few, absent any evidence. Where else does this logic apply: take any group, document the behavior of perhaps the worst 2-3%, and then say everyone else must be the same?
    So if the county can currently only afford to only do a max of 126 garden checks a year when there are more than twice the # of complaints, can someone please explain how we hope to enforce a county ban on perhaps thousands of gardens? Who’s going to pay for this? And if we can’t afford more checks, then there likely won’t be much compliance…the worst “profiteers” like to play the odds, they know how to go deeper in the woods, and they thrive on the risk premium their occupational hazards provide to their pocketbooks.
    An outdoor ban will not reduce MJ supply to youth or the general public (would a local outdoor ban on vineyards result in kids drinking alcohol any less?), and a ban only really primarily cuts out the marketshare of the state-legal supply (for people who don’t want to risk it) and increases the illegal marketshare (for people willing to risk it all for easy profits). The true criminals would love nothing better than to have armed minions of the county out and about picking off their competition one at a time, what a deal! We may want to expect more crime and violence with a ban.
    Forcing gardens indoors also means significantly more growing dope inside homes (in defiance of the new rules) and more invisible growing in every neighborhood, likely unseen and without permits, introducing electrical, fire, mold, chemical and flooding risks to residential structures and neighborhoods, with more traffic down our streets as more and more homes become discreet grow labs. People cannot afford to build an entire permitted detached structure with power and water just for a small indoor garden, so they will likely grow in their homes, rented or owned, and in closer proximity to the occupants, old or young. Why would we want the neighborhoods to suffer like that?
    The majority of our problems come from MJ prohibition, as there is no scientific evidence that pot itself makes people want to do a home invasion, damage the environment, or commit crimes. Those are the effects of prohibition, not the effects of MJ on its users.
    Vote NO on W. We need local regs written in affordable and easy-to-shape clay for future BOS to quickly and easily adjust, not local regs written in expensive cement.

    Like

  12. Brad C. Avatar
    Brad C.

    Dr. R @1006 – “Our BoS should have balls to craft an ordinance that can be more easily modified by subsequent boards as the country and CA continues learning about the problems and benefits of widespread MMJ and RMJ production and distribution.” – my sentiments exactly!

    Like

  13. Brad C. Avatar
    Brad C.

    Martin W. @1017 – I agree, a ballot measure is a bad idea. Vote No on W.
    Nuisances should be abated – “bad apples” culled.

    Like

  14. Brad C. Avatar
    Brad C.

    I believe the MMJ issue will be a non-issue in the near future. Look to Oregon for the most recent MJ legislation (Oregon probably looked at Colorado and Washington and took the ideas they liked and built on them). Recreational MJ is legal in Oregon. I have been in dozens of dispensaries since RMJ become legal and most look like generic retail office space (no swarthy people prowling in nearby alleyways) staffed by young adults in casual or business casual wear trying to educate consumers as to the tastes and effects of various craft grown MJ strains. The dispensaries are staffed by receptionists who check IDs and only one patient is allowed in the room with the MJ product per sales associate. People with medical conditions are using their MMJ cards and do not pay sales taxes. RMJ consumers are paying tax.
    The latest addition in the dispensaries I visited were information cards required by the Oregon government that were given to each purchaser reminding them to keep MJ products stored safely and out of reach of children.

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  15. Brad C. Avatar
    Brad C.

    Here is a link to a testing lab that describes what they test for to determine if a product is safe for human consumption,
    http://www.greenleaflab.org/oregon-house-bill-3460/

    Like

  16. Brad C. Avatar
    Brad C.

    But current testing might not be comprehensive enough,
    https://www.whaxy.com/news/oregon-dispensaries-pesticide-problem
    Having growers required to be certified as Organic (same as veggies found in your grocery store) might alleviate some of these issues.

    Like

  17. Don Bessee Avatar
    Don Bessee

    A quick word on numbers. The ASA crew has bandied about a lot of numbers in recent years. Take for example the claims of economic activity of weed. They have run from a high of 2 Billion to a low of 500 million. If we take the claim of 4k grows at face value that would mean each grow represented between $125,000.00 to $500,000.00 per grow. Hardly indicative of a small medicinal grow if true and that is doubtful.
    The abatements in 2015 were negatively impacted by two things. First the Sheriffs office was down 10 deputies and only had 2 working abatements. The other big thing was that there was a pervasive atmosphere of intimidation in the County. (just watch their antics at public meetings) Everywhere I went last year I was told about the neighborhoods problems and by phone etc. 2015 saw a change, previously people would ask if I would make the complaint for them. Last year they would vent about the problems but did not want anyone making a complaint for fear that they would be considered the source complaining party. They were terrified of retribution. Some were even afraid of emailing the BOS for fear some shark lawyer would end up with their name. That’s why they would button hole the BOS members in person.
    The ASA a crew also touted their scientific poll that said measure S would win with 70% of the vote. 😉

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  18. Michael R. Kest Avatar
    Michael R. Kest

    Don Bessee 19Mar16 12:15 PM
    Just as the end of alcohol prohibition ended the gangster era legalization of marijuana would end the terror by thugs who grow.
    The problems with marijuana are largely caused by its prohibition.

    Like

  19. drivebyposter Avatar
    drivebyposter

    “They were terrified of retribution.”
    D.Bessee @ 12:15
    That’s an interesting observation, and one that I hadn’t even considered. That would throw a new angle on all of this in my mind. None of this seem appropriate (to me) for law/regulation making at the county level, it’s all just a mess.
    Now that I think of it, I wish people would quit conflating local marijuana growing with health care issues (usually trundling out a cancer kid of some sort). There’s an entire mechanism in place for dealing with this kind of thing called a drug store, the whole notion of dispensary strikes me as stupid. If medical marijuana is real, then simply declare it a controlled drug and get Philip Morris or Pfizer to make the stuff at a known strength and quality.
    If the public decides that recreational marijuana is good, then simply follow the model of the liquor industry in terms of licensing, taxation, age limits, sales channel. I expect this would also be made by Philip Morris, but there is probably also room for the equivalent of boutique wine makers. The government is quite accomplished at dealing with liquor manufacture.
    Why does this have to be so freaking complicated?

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  20. Michael R. Kest Avatar
    Michael R. Kest

    drivebyposter 19March16 12:47 PM
    It’s complicated because our law enforcement agencies and the incarceration industry profits from prohibition. They are aided by 80 years of reefer madness propaganda.

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  21. drivebyposter Avatar
    drivebyposter

    M.Kesti @ 12:55
    Then change the law. End runs around an unpopular set of rules result in all sorts of distortion.

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  22. Brad C. Avatar
    Brad C.

    Yes, change the law. That is the point of this thread. Legal MJ is coming. The MJ patient numbers, profit numbers, etc. that keep being bandied about are irrelevant with respect to the question of whether, or not, to grow outdoors, or legalize MJ, etc.
    Dispensaries were necessary to provide a safe, regulated way for growers to connect with consumers. Pharmacies, like banks, are probably federally regulated and would be prohibited from carrying MJ until that Schedule 1 mess is cleared up.

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  23. George Rebane Avatar

    driveby 1247pm – Welcome to the debate. Your question about big pharma supplying MMJ if the market is really there has been a constant point of interest on RR for some years. Most recently in this thread, see my 1006am. Your question should be addressed to Ms Patricia Smith, as is mine. Mr Bessee has the same interest in hearing from pro-MMJ folks why such a huge market deficit is not filled by the greedy capitalist, and instead requires stove top chemistry labs to make the medicines from backyard crops that save the thousands upon thousands of children.

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  24. R. Davies Avatar

    Here’s something interesting, Oregon has generated huge amounts of Revenue, much more than expected in the first several months of Taxation. Colorado has done much the same despite the Fabrications that Don Besse has told us.
    Mr Bessie relationship with honesty and integrity are a thing that we all long for and wait to see.

    Like

  25. R. Davies Avatar

    I forgot to mention, to answer your question why greedy capitalists are not there making this medicine.
    It is fairly simple as it is still a schedule 1 drug, which means that the federal government could come in and shut down your company, eliminate all of your federal subsidies, as well as put your senior staff in jail.

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  26. Don Bessee Avatar
    Don Bessee

    Davies @ 226- I was not a co-author of the 2015 CO outcomes report published in January 2016 or the Newsom commission report. 😉

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  27. Don Bessee Avatar
    Don Bessee

    I also was not a co-author of the UCSF public health warning that called for the withdrawal of the current pot legalization ballot props. “One thing we don’t want to do is make the mistakes of Colorado, Oregon, Washington.”

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  28. George Rebane Avatar

    RDavies 228pm – Not a convincing answer Mr Davies since big pharma has some of the most powerful and effective lobbyists in DC, and are quite proficient at buying and selling politicians. If the quoted stats about MMJ patients in Nevada County are expanded pro rata across the USA (and why should they not be?), then there are 16M patients in need of MMJ in the US. With that kind of market, you can bet the ranch that big pharma would have the feds classify MMJ as safe as mother’s milk by next Friday.
    There is a serious disconnect here somewhere, and as long as ASA and other pro-MMJ don’t address that, then we will continue to talk past each other. After all, it’s all in the numbers.

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  29. Brad C. Avatar
    Brad C.

    I don’t think big pharma has as much to profit as it has to lose – if MJ can reduce dependence on big pharma. The enforcement, prison, industrial complex also would be a loser with legal MJ; big ag would probably be a winner though.
    Unless big money players can see a way to control the MJ market, or all the small operators in all the states band together to petition the Fed, the current
    do-nothing Congress will, you guessed it – do nothing about changing MJ to an over the counter supplement.
    Thinking about MMJ numbers is a waste of time unless you want to make a hobby of it. RMJ is where the states are going.
    By the way, the money thing is still a mess. Banks in states with MMJ and RMJ are hitting MJ related businesses with all kinds of extra fees to handle MJ related cash since they could get harassed by the Fed.
    In Oregon, a dispensary has to take thousands in cash to Salem, sit in a locked room with their tax monies in a bag, feed it through a slot in a window to a tech on the other side who runs the money counting machine, bands the funds, and provides a receipt for payment of sales taxes for RMJ.

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  30. R. Davies Avatar

    How many people have died from cannabis?
    Isn’t it zero?
    I think that has a lot of validity to this discussion.

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  31. R. Davies Avatar

    I think it’s rather comical when Don pull the information on heavy marijuana use.
    Heavy youth is defined as somebody smoking more than one half ounce per day.
    Reality is as follows when comparing it to tobacco use:
    Smoking cigarettes can cause significant lung damage, including respiratory symptoms, chronic obstructive pulmonary disease and lung cancer. It accounts for an estimated 443,000 deaths, or nearly one in every five deaths, each year in the United States, according to the U.S. Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC). Data for the long-term effects of marijuana use on the pulmonary system has been scarce until now.
    Cannabis usage has not caused one death, while tobacco, and don’t even start with the true gateway drug alcohol….

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  32. Don Bessee Avatar
    Don Bessee

    I missed pattie smiths morning BS about SAM funding. Just because some pot mag made an undocumented and unsubstantiated claim two years ago, that is no basis for your lies and slanders. SAM has never received ANY funding from ANY pharma co. NONE. I was personally at the closed session of the SAM national Board of Directors meeting at the end of last year (the only person there who was not on the Board) and saw the budget presentation. I note your friends comments on my recent editorial failed to address my editorial, just mindlessly parroted those lies too. Non profit tax reports show the facts. SO PUT UP OR SHUT UP AND RETRACT IF YOU DO NOT HAVE ANY DOCUMENTED FACTS YOU CAN SHOW US other than pot mag charges.
    Your crew also foolishly went after CADCA (community anti drug coalitions of America) which is populated by the people at the tip of the spear of recovery and prevention. The coalitions like ours here have opioids as their prime target. You can go to their sites, opioids, alcohol and weed are the 3 in order of priority. Coalitions have richly document achievements with opioid use reductions and they started the national drug take back programs that get excess pills out of homes.
    We know your ilk hate the coalitions with a passion because they can and do tell the 1st hand truth about the exponentially growing societal costs of weed and you are stuck with those facts that do not support your tired old narratives.

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  33. drivebyposter Avatar
    drivebyposter

    Yes, change the law. That is the point of this thread.
    Brad C. at some time or the other.
    Counties don’t change law. This is properly a state or federal issue I’d say.
    In any case, it’s pretty obvious that some people who make serious $$$$ on MJ are working the system to make it just illegal enough that they can keep non-market pricing in place. I’m bored with the argument. Either make it legal, either as a controlled drug or as a liquor-like recreational drug, or don’t.

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  34. Don Bessee Avatar
    Don Bessee

    Two more points that crush the lie that SAM is pharma funded. One- A close read of the referenced article shows it does not actually say SAM gets big pharma funding only that Patrick spoke at CADCA. Two- Non profit tax reports definitively show not a penny from big pharma. If you can not provide document RETRACT NOW.

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  35. Bill Toze Avatar
    Bill Toze

    “I bored with the argument.” Me too. Now, pass it over, please
    https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=pSgGCOHuO1U
    Ok, if pot ain’t your cup of tea,
    https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=LL9O0B0gzZE
    Sorry for the interruption. Carry on.

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  36. Michael R. Kest Avatar
    Michael R. Kest

    Hmm… Has anybody else noticed that the avatars displayed for drivebyposter and Don Bessee are the same? Aren’t these assigned y IP address?

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  37. fish Avatar
    fish

    There seems to be a limited set …….I’ve had the same graphic as Paul Emery and I’ve seen Gregory share one with Frisch in the same thread.

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  38. Don Bessee Avatar
    Don Bessee

    Yes the squiggly boxes can be interesting. There was a day I had the same light blue one as the ‘jon’, ewww, had to take 2 showers. LOL 😉

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  39. Bill Toze Avatar
    Bill Toze

    I have posted a couple of times from the cell phone machine of mine. Think I came out red. That is how your can tell if somebody is posting from another machine. I think, I dunno. You mean wipe it with a cloth?

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  40. Paul Emery Avatar
    Paul Emery

    Don
    I once invited you to walk through NC with me and discuss with retail business, Restaurant and Bar owners the economic effect of Measure W if it were to pass and be effectively enforced. Would you be willing to take me up on that offer?

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  41. Don Bessee Avatar
    Don Bessee

    PE- While it would be an interesting pr exercise, I have learned over the years working on home owner concerns in this County that the NC chamber marches to a different drummer than the GGV and West County Chambers. I would observe that NC restricted outdoor growing before the County with no uproar. Over the years I have heard from businesses in addition to the ones who are publicly drug free workplaces. Business owners are hyper sensitive to being identified one way or the other, however they generally really care about kids and the image of the community.

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  42. Paul Emery Avatar
    Paul Emery

    Don
    Do you have any concern about the economic impact of Measure W in Nevada County? What do you think will be the impact on retail?

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  43. George Rebane Avatar

    PaulE 1016am – Why do you believe that W will have any economic impact on the county? Given the thousands of existing grows, many/most already illegal, do you think the sheriff will have additional resources after W passes to shut any of them down?
    Diogenes 941am – that news is so yesterday. Of course there are big moneyed interests promoting the status quo. On these pages this has been acknowledged for years. Talk about carrying coals to Newcastle 😉
    But welcome back anyway.

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  44. Bill Tozer Avatar
    Bill Tozer

    Seems to me PE doesn’t really care if the hoochie hoochie plant ever becomes legal. He is just in it for the Nevada City Chamber of Commerce, or whatever it’s equivalent is. Paul is consistently consistent for sure about local sales tax revenue. A boarded up Broad St ain’t a pretty site. Do it for the retailers!! Nothing else matters. Or Paul, you shrill for capitalism, what ever happened to my street fighting man? Alas.

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  45. Bill Tozer Avatar
    Bill Tozer

    And do it for the private party backyard concert promoters. Can’t forget them, especially after losing all that money on the worm farm. At least Nevada City got a nice green building out of it that makes people feel there is something special in the air when they walk in. Nice, worth very penny. What is in the green APPLE room now? Another overpriced knick-knack shop? Enough to make a grown man fire up a MX Missile sized Hooter….or three.

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  46. Diogenes Avatar
    Diogenes

    George 10:27 AM- While it may be old news to some, it still seems pertinent in light of Don’s spin doctoring and half truths. At least The Nation isn’t the pot mags he references when playing doctor and expounding his misguided ideas on recommended dosages and yields.

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  47. George Rebane Avatar

    Diogenes 1059am – So noted; thanks for the clarification.

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  48. Diogenes Avatar
    Diogenes

    Lets see – do we think there will be an economic impact when x number of law-abiding patients need to pay thousands of extra dollars into the coffers of PG&E? Do we think spending thousands on an indoor, permitted structure will not make a dent in the disposable and discretionary income of those already burdened with medical problems? I hope they spend it here, with merchants that oppose bad law. It should be intuitively obvious there will be both an economic impact and an environmental impact, but the Supervisors deny this and refuse to do an economic or environmental analysis. They don’t WANT to see the numbers. I believe they are in violation of their fiduciary duties. I further believe they are afraid they will find out just how expensive the folly of banning outdoor growing really will be.

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