Rebane's Ruminations
March 2016
S M T W T F S
 12345
6789101112
13141516171819
20212223242526
2728293031  

ARCHIVES


OUR LINKS


YubaNet
White House Blog
Watts Up With That?
The Union
Sierra Thread
RL “Bob” Crabb
Barry Pruett Blog

George Rebane

[This is the linked transcript of my regular KVMR commentary broadcast on 18 March 2016.]

Legalization of marijuana is making progress by fits and starts across the nation.  I want to talk about how those fits and starts are taking place here in Nevada County where marijuana or MJ has long been the county’s leading albeit illegal cash crop.  The country’s MJ laws are a mess, with the feds totally outlawing the weed along with its commercial relatives like hemp.  And the states (California) have their own laws that permit various methods of production and types of consumption which specify how everything from recreational marijuana or RMJ to medical marijuana or MMJ can be used.  Then come the counties making their own rules about growing and consuming RMJ and MMJ, rules that somehow have to dovetail, sidestep, or totally ignore what higher jurisdictions already have in place, or are planning for the near term.  As I said, it is a mess, and one that is entirely created by government.

Most of us know that our Board of Supervisors have put Measure W on the June ballot.  Its passage promises to supersede the emergency MJ ordinance now in place, and legalize limited indoor MMJ grows to provide the plant for medicinal uses.  The anti-MJ folks, led by Smart Approaches to Marijuana (SAM), are promoting Measure W since it not only outlaws outdoor grows, but all “commercial cultivation and other commercial cannabis activities”, and permits only limited indoor growing of MMJ “for medicinal purposes”.


SAM argues that any large scale MMJ grows will provide profitable product for RMJ use and will continue the nuisance aspects of the marijuana culture that is evident in the county.  Additionally such grows impede the county’s economic development as told by our sheriff.

The anti-W people are organized under Americans for Safe Access (ASA) which promotes MMJ cultivation and use.  They argue that W is totally inadequate for local supply of the types and quantities of the plant to satisfy the needs of local patients.  They discount the impact of MMJ leakage to RMJ, stating that such uses are already illegal and law enforcement should just continue to deal with it.

It is evident to most that neither side knows the actual dimensions of the problem they are trying to solve.  Their arguments can be reduced to pro-W people asking ‘Why should neighborhoods suffer?’, and the anti-W folks countering with ‘Why should kids suffer?’  And so they both go on generating heat without shedding much light on the debate.

Stepping back, it is easy to see that all social issues become reasonable concerns only when we know the numbers that define their scope, size, locales, and impacted populations.  Without defining parameters, debates about such issues never go beyond the anecdotal, the emotional, and the demagoguery that serve other agendas.  Nevada County’s marijuana debate is a poster child that confirms this.  Absent the numbers, the inevitable result is more bad laws, regulations, and ordinances.

To date we know neither the scope nor extent of the neighborhood problem save that there have been neighbors’ complaints about bad smells and increases in unsavory traffic.  And the ‘smoke free zone’ in Nevada City is a farce that any visitor can smell as they walk the city’s streets and see smokers tucked away in doorways and other shielded places.

And the medical problem is known only by anecdotal accounts of this child or that sufferer whose life has been spared or made tolerable by the steady consumption of an exotic marijuana concoction produced locally in someone’s garage or house.  These are the ‘medicines’ which ASA claims the county tries to deny the ill and afflicted.  But we voters have no idea how many people will then suffer or die if they can’t get such locally produced ‘product’.

Until both sides bring voters some reasonable estimates of the scope of the problems they describe, Measure W will be one more exercise of public emotions playing out in the voting booth. The result will not satisfy anyone or acknowledge the country’s changing sentiment toward drugs, and the new laws that will regulate and tax their production and use.

My name is Rebane, and I also expand on this and related themes on Rebane’s Ruminations where the transcript of this commentary is posted with relevant links, and where such issues are debated extensively.  However my views are not necessarily shared by KVMR.  Thank you for listening.

[19mar16 update]  We saw our friend and RR reader RL ‘Bob’ Crabb’s regular Saturday contribution in this morning’s Union, and immediately decided to filch it for an appropriate addendum to the above commentary.  Thanks Bob.

RLCrabb160319

[24mar16 update] In the 24mar16 Union Bob Miller of Grass Valley writes ‘Both sides of marijuana debate have explaining to do’ wherein he takes to task MMJ proponents like Ms Patricia Smith who opposes Measure W, and the Board of Supervisors who promote it. It is a well written piece that I happen to wholly agree with, especially when he also calls on our county leaders to lead.  Mr Miller concludes – “Finally, putting Measure W on the ballot instead of leaving the ordinance amendable by the board guarantees should any unintended consequences arise they won’t be easily undone. We elected you to lead wisely. We do not accept that wisdom would ever consider throwing such a critical measure on the ballot before it’s been proven workable. Having to admit later, ‘The people have already spoken. We can do nothing about it now’ won’t cut it.”

 

Posted in , , ,

94 responses to “Legal Marijuana is Coming (updated 24mar16)”

  1. Diogenes Avatar
    Diogenes

    Dr. R. – Thanks for the polite welcome back.

    Like

  2. Bill Tozer Avatar
    Bill Tozer

    Crunch crunch

    Like

  3. George Rebane Avatar

    Namenotlisted 306pm – that’s some serious revelation there, and highly suspect because you are coming at us like a sackhead (q.v.). Repost your comment with some credible name, or we’re going to miss you around here. Or better yet stick to the topic at hand.

    Like

  4. Don Bessee Avatar
    Don Bessee

    Ah yes, memories of the good old Court Reformer days. Hard to believe that’s was a decade ago. Not all of the fraudsters went to jail and some still lurk in dark parts of the county. A pair of them are still delaying sentencing. Drug dealers and financial fraudsters aren’t used to people standing up to them and they tend to play dirty but howl when you give it right back to them just as hard or harder.

    Like

  5. Bill Tozer Avatar
    Bill Tozer

    Boy, the varnmits are being smoked out into the open all over the place.

    Like

  6. Paul Emery Avatar
    Paul Emery

    Don
    Okay How about doing a walk through in Grass Valley instead?

    Like

  7. Paul Emery Avatar
    Paul Emery

    Once again Don what do you believe will be the economic effect on Nevada County with Measure W being effectively enforced?

    Like

  8. Paul Emery Avatar
    Paul Emery

    RE George 10:27
    ” Why do you believe that W will have any economic impact on the county? Given the thousands of existing grows, many/most already illegal, do you think the sheriff will have additional resources after W passes to shut any of them down?”
    George you have to take at face value that any law or regulation (as it is in this matter) is intended to be enforced and that resources are available to accomplish that task. If laws and regs cannot be reasonably enforced they should not be enacted. If they are selectively enforced then enforcement is arbitrary and or targeted which is a great scenario for corruption and police targeting enforcement according to their preference. The fact is that the Sheriffs dept intends to use helicopter aerials as a basis for enforcement that are paid for by assert forfeiture from properties seized under the Rico laws that don’t even require arrest or conviction as a basis for confiscation shows how far pro W supporters are willing to go to enforce their mandates.
    The bottom line is that W, effectively enforced, would remove millions of $$$ from Nevada County retail establishments resulting in predictable downturns in sales tax and declining property taxes due to foreclosures.
    This assumption is real and has nothing to do with supporting or not supporting W. It is just a predictable consequence.

    Like

  9. George Rebane Avatar

    PaulE 603pm – that’s quite a scenario. Is it fabricated out of whole cloth or did Sheriff Royal whisper in your ear. And when have well-read adults in America ever taken enforcement of any law “at face value”? Every law has been enforced under the aegis of ‘prosecutorial discretion’ given the resources, ideology, and political will that bears on the matter. I know that you are familiar with this since we have discussed in extensively over the years.

    Like

  10. drivebyposter Avatar
    drivebyposter

    “George you have to take at face value that any law or regulation (as it is in this matter) is intended to be enforced and that resources are available to accomplish that task. If laws and regs cannot be reasonably enforced they should not be enacted. If they are selectively enforced then enforcement is arbitrary and or targeted which is a great scenario for corruption and police targeting enforcement according to their preference.”
    P.Emery
    A reasonable theory. So how do you feel about illegal aliens?

    Like

  11. Paul Emery Avatar
    Paul Emery

    So George what you imply is that W won’t harm our economy because it is unenforceable. My scenario is totally logical based on reasonable enforcement and the use of Rico dough is documented.

    Like

  12. George Rebane Avatar

    PaulE 630pm – then let it be. If W doesn’t pass, the BoS can still pass an ordinance having the same effect. Not sure I understand your thrust.
    Besides all those neighborhood grows that will supposedly be shut down couldn’t contribute much to our economy anyway since they’re only doing MMJ which ASA claims is being sold at a pittance to patients. In short, as far as money is concerned, there is no there there.

    Like

  13. Paul Emery Avatar
    Paul Emery

    George
    the reality is that MJ cultivation both legal and illegal has a huge impact on our economy. To ignore that is astounding. Thats what the yes on W crowd is trying to do. It’s time for Nevada County to accept the reality that it is our biggest industry and cash crop. It is entirely irresponsible to not take that into account when looking at the economic engines that drive our economy.

    Like

  14. George Rebane Avatar

    PaulE 1045pm – I don’t think anyone here, most certainly not I, would want to ignore “our biggest industry and cash crop.” Given that this is a “reality”, then there should be some evidence or estimate of its size that our political leaders should be considering in their debate about W and other means of dealing with the nuisance factor and cultural conflict that is very visible hereabouts. What you are really doing here is accusing our political leaders of grossly ignoring their fiducial and social responsibilities in their job descriptions. Am I missing something in what you said?

    Like

  15. Bill Tozer Avatar
    Bill Tozer

    Paul, perhaps you should include the word “outdoor” to clarify your advocation of the economic factor marihuana brings to the bars, restaurants, trimmigrants, Nevada City’, and the Ridge’s way of life. For example, “the reality is that outdoor MJ cultivation both legal no illegal has a huge impact on OUR economy.” Granted, trimmigrants are more likely to be found at the bars instead of fine expensive restaurants, but a minor point which is not worth discussing.
    Seems to me the only point of contention is indoor vs outdoor cultivation. Nature vs artificial. Organic vs synthetic. Real vs fake. Farming vs cultivation. Free energy from the Sun vs artificial energy sources. Apples and oranges.
    Just a helpful hint to help clarify what is the real issue, IMHO.

    Like

  16. Paul Emery Avatar
    Paul Emery

    That’s about it it George. Where, in your mind, should that assessment come from? In my view with the realistic possibility that Recreational Mj is likely to be a reality after November there will be tremendous opportunities for Nevada County to prosper as a provider statewide. Measure W eliminates the possibility of this dialogue without another costly ballot measure.

    Like

  17. George Rebane Avatar

    PaulE 905am – I think the assessment should come from some source claiming to be credible in NC affairs, say, county government, ERC, CoC, …, and it should also outline its methodology. My positions/quandaries on MJ in all its facets have been made abundantly clear in these pages (and our private discussions).

    Like

  18. Diogenes Avatar
  19. George Rebane Avatar

    Diogenes 1051am – Thank you for reviewing that study Mr Diogenes. I agree with (now Dr?) Keene’s exhortation, that we should get some relevant numbers about our MJ crop, but also where that money goes. I fear that most of the estimated $50M/yr never touches Nevada County. However, one can make the case that if legalized, regulated, and taxed, more of it would be spent here.

    Like

  20. Paul Emery Avatar
    Paul Emery

    George
    I think 50 mill is a bit low an estimate
    You must take into account that MJ cultivation is the primary source of income for untold numbers of Nevada County residents and families and that they use that income for their primary needs including housing (mortgages-rent) food transportation etc. A couple of years ago I informally asked the administrators of two large Charter Schools what percentage of their families are supported by cultivation and they both had the same answer-one third to one half of all families. Effective enforcement would displace these families and lead to a lower student enrollment. Like it or not these are the realities that NC must encounter when they talk about eliminating cultivation from our economy.
    Bill
    The “trimigrants are a small part of the economic effect on our retail. It is the high end restaurants and bars that profit the most. Think New Moon, various sushi spots, Golden Era, Friar Turks (no Credit Cards after 9PM a famous quote from the owner of FT’s). I recently interviewed the owner of a prominent kitchen store in our area and when asked how difficult is it to make a profit from retail in our community and he responded by saying thank goodness for the Cultivators, they keep him afloat. “They spend lots of money and like nice things.”

    Like

  21. George Rebane Avatar

    PaulE 1145am – I have not done the cited research, and cannot account for the “untold numbers”. Proponents like you should invite Sara Keene into this dialogue, perhaps she has some more recent data. Until then we must go with what we have.

    Like

  22. drivebyposter Avatar
    drivebyposter

    “However, one can make the case that if legalized, regulated, and taxed, more of it would be spent here.”
    G. Rebane
    I can’t help but think that if legalized (either for health or recreational reasons), it wouldn’t be grown here.
    Maybe I’m ignorant about the agronomy, but the entire marijuana ‘industry’ in places like Nevada County is predicated on keeping it semi-illegal. When a business is sketchy, you can’t help but have riff raff involved.

    Like

  23. Brad C. Avatar
    Brad C.

    Dr. R@0856am -I find it interesting that you associate “cultural conflict” with MJ and “W”. That might illustrate the for/against disconnect in the MJ discussion better than any legal or nuisance issues.
    In regards to what the nuisance factors are, the primary reason given seems to be smell of mature MJ for a couple of weeks per season.
    Are there other nuisance factors? For example, is it the smell, or the dress, or the religion (or lack thereof) AKA “cultural differences” of the MJ proponents that also drives those who support the ban on MJ? That seems pretty discriminatory to me. I thought we, as a society, were trying to get beyond these petty, personal biases.

    Like

  24. Bill Tozer Avatar
    Bill Tozer

    Paul, that be true. Once I went into the Fur Traders (durable stingray skinned wallets) and these smelly dirty skinny punks that reeked of The Scared Herb were busy laying down that wad of Benjamins buying $400 jackets by the armful. The young wifie-pooh was styling in buckskin with fringes, I must say. Oh it’s so fun to play house, but I digress. No argument here.
    Look, people are going to do what they have done anyway for the past 40 years. Roofer joke in the 70’s was “if you drop your hammer off the roof and it slides over the fence in NSJ, don’t even think about retrieving it.” Heard that has changed a bit.
    It is not legal yet. Sure, plan the groundwork but don’t put the cart before the horse. I don’t see how legalized possession and recreational use deals with the growing issue. I say manuveur to get a half loaf for now. Asking for legalization to grow as you please, in the breeze, may be asking too much. Patience. And to repeat myself, I do appreciate your clear consistency on this current issue. Let’s see how you all do come election time. Besides, pro or con, we all have to wait and see. We don’t have a choice.

    Like

  25. George Rebane Avatar

    BradC 115pm – And I in turn find it interesting that you seem to originate MJ’s “cultural conflict” with RR. While I would be glad to accept such credit, I cannot. You seem to be unaware that the culture conflict was presented front and center by Sheriff Royal, et al (W proponents) at the recent meeting (town hall?) that overflowed BoS chambers.
    And yes, it is discriminatory, very discriminatory indeed. The community very much wants to discriminate itself from the scuzzy “riff raff” that provide so much of the nuisance component to growing MJ in built-up neighborhoods. While the liberal mind has set aside ‘discriminate’ as a pejorative word, it is not. To discriminate means to denote explicitly that this is not that.

    Like

  26. Paul Emery Avatar
    Paul Emery

    George
    Before stereotyping “growers ” I suggest you spend a little time getting to know the families of legitimate growers that grow and distribute to dispensaries as we speak. They are the ones that will be hurt if W passes. The illegal growers that the sheriff used in his parade of anecdotal evidence at the BOS meetings will continue as usual. The “nuisance component in built-up neighborhoods” that you referred to was largely curtailed by the former ordinance that the sheriff himself said was “doing the job” in his retort to Measure S. He also campaigned against S by saying that it will be written in stone and cannot be changed, so to speak which is exactly what Measure W will be.
    we are not in disagreement on this issue I believe (measure W). We can both agree that a ballot measure is a lousy way of making laws that should be created by our elected officials.

    Like

  27. George Rebane Avatar

    PaulE 305pm – “stereotyping growers”??!! Where did that come from?
    I believe the sheriff, neighbors, and some RR commenters (drivebyposter 1230pm) are the ones who have identified the cultural divide between NC residents and the “riff raff”. I’m not aware of any in-town growers being so labeled, but the traffic that they attract have most certainly earned that appellation. My only experience with them is when we stroll in Nevada City and encounter smell effusing people I would not want as my neighbors, nor do I believe that our tourists add their such encounters to the pleasant memories of their visit.
    BTW, where can one find these local MMJ “dispensaries”? Do they also make up the concoctions?

    Like

  28. Paul Emery Avatar
    Paul Emery

    I was referring to the use of “scuzzy riff raff”
    the dispensaries are statewide and NC growers are major providers

    Like

  29. George Rebane Avatar

    PaulE 327pm – How did my use of “scuzzy riff raff” stereotype growers? The label identified the undesirable types that give rise to the nuisance calls and, according to our officials, give tourists pause when they come to the GVNC community.
    And if there are 3,000 – 5,000 patients requiring MMJ in Nevada County, I don’t understand why aren’t any of the statewide dispensaries located hereabouts?

    Like

  30. Patricia Smith Avatar

    George 3/39, 2:55pm Big Pharma does not want MMJ legalized because it would cut into the profits from some of their best selling drugs (Oxy’s alone have made $35 billion). They are actively fighting against legalization as are the leading “anti-pot” groups:
    From the Nation article (July 2, 2014)…”these groups (CADCA, Partnership for Drug Free Kids) have taken a hard line against marijuana reform but have notably refused to sign on to some efforts to make the most addictive prescriptions drugs more difficult to obtain.”
    By Bessee’s own admission, Patrick Kennedy was a keynote speaker at a CADCA rally that was sponsored by Purdue Pharmaceuticals, makers of OxyContin, formerly the most deadly man-made drug. So no Don, I won’t recant my statement, but challenge you to disprove it.
    The Nation obtained a confidential financial disclosure from the Partnership for Drug-Free Kids showing that the group’s largest donors include Purdue Pharma, the manufacturer of OxyContin, and Abbott Laboratories, maker of the opioid Vicodin. [Community Anti-Drug Coalition of America] also counts Purdue Pharma as a major supporter, as well as Alkermes, the maker of a powerful and extremely controversial new painkiller called Zohydrol.
    Everything may change soon. The Supreme Court decined to hear a case challenging CO’s RMJ laws today. The Feds are clearing the way for Wall Street investors to take over the industry by clearing out the little guys first. Presumably, this will clear the way for medical research.

    Like

  31. Patricia Smith Avatar

    BTW George, ASA is just one component of the opposition to Measure W. There is a Coalition to Tax & Regulate Medical Cannabis that deals with businesses, the CA Growers Association that deals with Best Mnagement Practices for cultivating responsibily, District Four Against Prohibition, Women Grow, and a few others that slip my mind.

    Like

  32. Paul Emery Avatar
    Paul Emery

    George
    The reason there is no dispensary in Nevada County is because they have been banned by the County and Cities.

    Like

  33. George Rebane Avatar

    PaulE 808pm – So put it together for me (and others), where do all the thousands of Nevada County MMJ patients get their specially compounded medicines?

    Like

  34. Diogenes Avatar
    Diogenes

    Some Ruminants may find the info presented here (as well as the on rest of this site) by Republicans Against Prohibition (RAMP) of interest: http://www.rampgop.org/resources/

    Like

  35. Paul Emery Avatar
    Paul Emery

    RE George 8:37
    Don’t know George. Many from growers that provide for individuals. Many grow for themselves. It will be a moot point once Pot becomes legalized for recreational use which is likely. Stupid law that reeks of government control of our individual decisions as to what we do with our lives. Offends my Libertarian sensitivities.

    Like

  36. George Rebane Avatar

    PaulE 1221pm – I don’t think that I have yet to say it well enough for you to understand. My question does not involve the growing of MJ that finally winds up as one of several types of ready to consume MMJ medicine. ASA leaders like Ms Patricia Smith have assured us that MMJ must go through various kinds of post-harvest processing to yield the products with various kinds of medicinal benefits – it’s much more complex than lighting up a joint.
    The question – is all this processing being done in the garages and kitchens of the MMJ growers of Nevada County, if not, then where?? Providing a regular supply of at least minimum quality medicine to 5,000 patients seems to require quite an undertaking. As I said before, something doesn’t add up, and its far from being “moot”, either now or after RMJ is legalized.
    BTW, I was interested to visit the website of RAMP to which Diogenes (1134am) provides a link.

    Like

  37. Paul Emery Avatar
    Paul Emery

    George
    to be honest with you I am not an expert in MMJ distribution or processing. I have been to a couple of dispensaries and I’m impressed by the different products and strains that are offered to those who have medical recommendations. You’re right, someone has to manufacture these products many of which are edibles of various strains that are recommended for various ailments. That said I believe that we have the right to chose our own medicines and have them available if we desire. What gives the government the right to deprive us from something we can grow in our back yard.
    There I go again, the Libertarian in me sneaking out. I intend to read Diogenes (1134am) after giving it a glance. Ironic that the Republicans are by and large more resistant to change in this matter than the Dems. Interesting to speculate as to whether a Repub President would reverse Obama’s hands off policy towards States pursuing their own path in this matter.

    Like

  38. Russ Steele Avatar
    Russ Steele

    THE MEDICAL MARIJUANA MESS: A prescription for fixing a broken policy
    by JOHN HUDAK, Brookings Institute
    Although there are a number of policy changes, large and small, that Congress and the administration could make to overcome the deficiencies of this system, thus far they have chosen not to do so. Yet, as numerous organizations like the Marijuana Policy Project and the National Organization for the Reform of Marijuana Laws have documented, a substantial majority of Americans in every state that has been polled supports changes (in some form) to the nation’s medical marijuana laws. Gallup and CBS News polls have pegged national support for reform at between 70 and 85 percent.
    While elected officials cling to the status quo, failing to recognize and address the inherent hypocrisies in the nation’s laws, patients like Jennifer Collins and her family, and business owners like Rabbi Kahn and his family, are enduring unnecessary hardships. Far from being outliers, they are typical of the many people victimized by an unjust, arbitrary, and downright harmful system that hinders access to a clinically proven medical benefit.
    It is time for government to transform medical marijuana policy into a system that is rational, functional, consistent, and informed by science—not politics.
    http://www.brookings.edu/research/essays/2016/the-medical-marijuana-mess

    Like

  39. R. Davies Avatar

    One of the most interesting things is that our share of claims that one pound of medical marijuana / cannabis can make 46 gallons of tincture.
    I guess that would mean that you could dump one package of Kool-Aid in a 10,000 gallon swimming pool and have 10,000 gallons of Kool-Aid….
    I really have to wonder just how stupid are Sheriff thinks we are?

    Like

  40. George Rebane Avatar

    “Oppressive laws do not destroy minorities; they simply make bootleggers.”
    “No one in this world, so far as I know has ever lost money by underestimating the intelligence of the great masses of the plain people. Nor has anyone ever lost public office thereby.”
    H.L. Mencken

    Like

  41. Patricia Smith Avatar

    George, 3/22 1:02pm
    Yes, some people do process raw marijuana into oils in their own garages or kitchens, but it is largely made in labs like most products. Because of our restrictive laws in NC, these labs are located in Sacramento (at lease the ones I know about).

    Like

  42. George Rebane Avatar

    PatriciaS 203pm – Recall that we’re talking about 5,000? MMJ patients in Nevada County alone. I don’t think you imply that enough of your “some people” in their kitchens and garages in NC can satisfy that level of need. So if the overwhelming part of the processed MMJ comes from Sacramento and other non-NC places, then why is it important to have the original grows in our county; why can’t they get the harvested plants from other locales? MMJ proponents always argue as if it were important that the MMJ originate from NC; it appears that this is not the case. What am I missing?

    Like

Leave a comment