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October 2015
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George Rebane

The more tightly ANY system is coupled, the more likely its performance is paced by its weakest and/or its most stupid members.  Mother Nature

In the 10oct15 Union there is an opinion piece that perfectly, nay, iconically reveals the liberal mind.  ‘Let’s Have a Worthy Debate’ by local politician Heidi Hall and much regaled/reviled meteorologist Dr Michael Mann (of Hockeystick fame) is a call to silence the preventable global warming (PGW) skeptics and banish their voices from the public media.  It is a chilling preview of the future that our progressives have in store for Americans.

The Union management appears to be flummoxed by how to properly present all this debate. They are having a hard time sticking to their policy to publish letters rebutting named condemnations (e.g. one of my rebuttals was not published).  Admittedly it is a difficult piece of content management, especially about something that people spend most of their time talking past each other, like hiding everything under the misleading umbrella ‘climate change’ which is not even in dispute.

One of the more interesting aspects of the Hall/Mann piece is its stock denigration of skeptics without mentioning one word about the significant science and scientists who have presented counter arguments to PGW in all of its dimensions.  To understand the taxonomy of the issues involved in any rational discussion of PGW, please see Drilling Down ‘Climate Change’.  But then, censorship not reason is the objective of their piece attacking skeptics; Hall/Mann do not mince words –

Journalists and editorial page editors need to stop wasting ink to give a false sense of equity from “both sides of the issue.” In this time of Internet jockeys thinking that every opinion is equal regardless of their actual understanding of the issue, this matters.

Publishers and bloggers do us a disservice by not distinguishing credible opinion from absurdities, and continuing to give both equal time. We understand that it can be difficult to determine the credibility of opinions. But doing so is, in our opinion, a key responsibility of journalists today.


The skeptics are relegated to a low class of “Internet jockeys” and bloggers who are not only uneducated but have no critical thinking skills.  Therefore “a key responsibility of journalists today” is to “determine the credibility of opinions”, and cull out those of the skeptics (you definitely can't make this stuff up).  Now such a gargantuan task is to be laid on what today is one of the most intellectually stunted and agenda driven occupations whose credibility with their readership ranks down there with that of lawyers and politicians.

But lay aside that and the omission of the large body of science that details material shortcomings and errors in the work of the politically driven True Believers.  One of the more humorous observations I have of Dr Mann taking time with a small town politician to dun the skeptics in these Sierra foothills is that they lambast us as ignorant voices talking only to each other within a small and insignificant community.  If that is so, then why would a dominant figure adored by the nation’s progressives and leftwing politicians deign to waste time lending his weight to counter skeptical bloggers and readers of a newspaper with a negligibly small readership?  What’s so important about Nevada County?  If the skeptical critics in the Union (e.g. columns by Norm Sauer, Bob Hren, Gregory Goodknight, and moi) and on blogs like WUWT (Anthony Watts), Next Grand Minimum (Russ Steele), and RR are so far off base in their arguments countering PGW, then why bother?  Really?

Methinks otherwise.  I know that the mentioned blogs are read nationwide and overseas.  Today it’s easy to have Google (e.g. Google Alerts) notify you whenever someone publishes something of nominated interest to you.  Ms Hall’s participation here is clear – as a declared leftwing candidate, she is burnishing her credentials riding on the coattails of Dr Mann on an issue near and dear to progressive hearts.  But the only rationale for Mann to devote his time/name to counter these critics is that we are giving effective voice to a growing body of science/engineering that threatens to upset the Left's carefully constructed and grant/tax powered applecart on the road to Agenda21.

Finally, to put this effort by the Left to abrogate the First Amendment and silence opposition into perspective, take a read of 'Shut Up – Or We'll Shut You Down' in the 10oct15 WSJ.  To understand the draconian national initiatives the socialists are seeking against their dissenters, can you spell RICO (Racketeer Influenced and Corrupt Organizations Act)?  Yes, these scumbags are actually attempting to make public PGW skepticism a criminal act under RICO which would "shut down debate because it can inflict treble damages upon a defendant."  This, dear reader, is what we have been talking about in these pages for the last eight years.  And this is why the local leftwing lackies (who have also called for silencing me both in the Union and on KVMR) support the likes of Sen Elizabeth Warren in legislation to shut down institutions and blogs like this.  Their brave new world may be no more than one or two elections away.

[11oct15 update]  In these, my offerings on the workings of the liberal mind, we have again been blessed to have the participation of our most welcome spate of liberals/progressives/socialists.  And again, they come to illustrate and underline the thesis outlined and expanded in these pages over the years.  No one does it better than Mr Steven Frisch, CEO of a regional non-profit that promotes and helps implement government diktats of the collectivist genre.

Above I have focused not on the science of PGW, but how the Left continues its policy of silencing arguments counter to its agenda and belief system – here it is a general proposal of censorship by the media, in particular in our local newspaper The Union.

But let us first dispose of a few PGW-relevant points of science.  A fundamental tenet of science is that no ‘fact’ is ever known with certainty – therefore prima facie evidence of a non-scientific argument is to claim otherwise and depart further from science and state that debate on a point of science is over.  Nationally respected Professor Philip Tetlock of the Wharton School (U of Penn), who has served on numerous government boards and commissions investigating issues and events involving uncertainty, advises “it is a huge mistake to belittle belief updating”.  This echoes economist Keynes’ famous, “When the facts change, I change my mind.  What do you do, sir?”

And since the first alarums about catastrophic global warming were raised, and then augmented by assertions that proper human actions could halt it, many facts have indeed changed as non-politicized investigators (scientists, engineers, et al) have entered the fray and committed their own intellectual capital to less preordained programs of research.  As pointed out here for years, constant (Bayesian) belief updating is critical to maintaining an unbiased and correct knowledge base.

Students of the estimation and forecasting field understand that uncertainty comes in two major flavors – epistemic and aleatory.  Epistemic uncertainty bestows hope about something unknown but knowable, at least in theory.  Aleatory uncertainty is an attribute of something that is both unknown and unknowable under our current state of knowledge (i.e. including all extant theories).  Physical and computer scientists have told us for decades that our universe resists knowing the future, and the more so as we seek to extend the time horizon – this unfortunate state of reality says that predicting the vicissitudes of climate decades or a century from now is an aleatory enterprise.  And fundamental science proscribes pronouncements from such infectious hubris.

But grant-driven science hacks like Michael Mann and James Hansen are pipers playing the tune of their political benefactors.  They remind history students of the career of epigeneticist Trofim Lysenko (q.v.) the hoaky 'scientist' who ruled soviet agriculture for 30 years, and in the process destroyed it.  His client was the state (Stalin), and the rest of their scientific community dutifully fell into line.  There censorship of counter arguments was complete, as according to today's well-publicized wishes of our progressive cadres in the US who cite consensus science as the foundation of irremediable truth.  (The fact that the overwhelming fraction of the cited consensual thousands don’t understand climate as a system and deny supplying IPCC with anything more than inputs from their own narrow fields, that fact is judiciously trampled by propaganda promoting progressives – ‘nothing to see here, just move along.’) As all students of science know, that field of endeavor does not move with the horde, but through the insights of lonely pioneers vilified for the existential threats their work presents to the status quo that always has thousands of lockstep cadres defending their belief barricaded turfs.  But that is a sister issue already well-covered and in anticipation of more on the way.

Meanwhile, back at the ranch.

Most people understand ‘censor’ to mean the denial by one party/agency of another party/agency communicating an idea, facts, proposition, belief, or elements of knowledge.  Formally from Merriam-Webster (see also Gregory’s 955am) – “Censorship is the suppression of speech, public communication or other information which may be considered objectionable, harmful, sensitive, politically incorrect or inconvenient as determined by governments, media outlets, authorities or other groups or institutions.”  (apropos emphasis mine)

In America, censorship is directly addressed in our right to free speech as specified in the First Amendment.  As it applies to our public forum and the several institutions that make up our society, not all forms of censorship are illegal for the simple reason that free speech is not guaranteed for all and in all circumstances – e.g. members of the military, employees of certain government agencies and private corporations, etc.  But it most certainly is guaranteed to rank and file citizens, absent their membership in restrictive organizations, especially when they seek to communicate their beliefs and opinions on broadly impactive public policies, matters of science, history, religion, social values, mores, etc, and especially about their government.

There is a difference between beseeching public media to “ignore” certain factions and tenets, and advising private individuals to do so.  Since public media are outlets for general communications in a society, such calls by Hall and Mann for responsible journalists to ignore and “stop wasting ink” on specific topics, is simply the call for censoring such ideas from consumers of their outlets.  Mr Frisch’s attempts at counter-examples of censorship in his 636pm and 643pm give ample evidence that he agrees with this general definition when it conforms to and supports his own ideology.  I cannot cite a better exemplar of the liberal mind than Mr Frisch's 126am below, wherein he extolls the notion that he and his are privileged to incorrigible facts which then should fall upon the rest of us as ex cathedra pronouncements.  For these self-styled worthies, ‘saving ink’ in such circumstances should not be seen as censorship but instead a public service.

What Hall and Mann said was that the facts should end the debate not that censorship should end the debate. There is a big difference. You are dissembling and creating a faux issue to have a star dog to attack. It is really an act of desperation on your part gentlemen.  (emphasis mine)

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168 responses to “The Liberal Mind – Climate Skeptical Debates are Unworthy and Should be Censored (updated 11oct15)”

  1. George Rebane Avatar

    ***** Dear Readers, I draw your kind attention to the 11oct15 update to this commentary.

    Like

  2. Todd Juvinall Avatar

    Well done update. You being up some really good points. If say, Pasteur had listened to the critics of his work and he had not pursued the “settled science” of the time, how many dead would there be? If Galileo had stopped his research due to the pressure of those above him, where would the science be? There are thousands of examples of why the Frisch types are truly the “flat earthers” and the “deniers” are not. I suppose the history of mankind should have just stopped progressing when the first roadblocks were there. Frisch, Mann and now Supervisor wannabee Hall are the new “blocateers” of progress.

    Like

  3. Gregory Avatar
    Gregory

    A digression regarding “Heidi, Heidi…”, here’s a definitive version of the theme music to the Japanese cartoon’s theme sung in German… by MNOZIL BRASS, an Austrian brass chamber group that is part Canadian Brass, part PDQ Bach, part Monty Python. The opening is “Heidi” inspired with a few other tunes weaved in, not the least of which is the fanfare from the Wm.Tell Overture..
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=glF490PG7f4
    Here’s the toon. Take pity on Gitti und Erika, they started singing this as teenagers and it is their doom to repeat it like a hellish Milli Vanilli Dante’s Inferno.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pu7MjOd0o0Y

    Like

  4. Gregory Avatar
    Gregory

    Regarding the update, let’s repeat the core message, Michael Mann and the lesser players like our own novice politician Heidi Hall and professional rent seeker Stephen Frisch are all calling for censorship to clear their playing field for them to advance their cause. Be assured Mann is well aware of the shellacking his RealClimate partner Gavin Schmidt (now the director of NASA-GISS after Hansen’s retirement) took at the IntelligenceSquared debate of the question, “Global warming is not a crisis” and wish to be rewarded for ducking all debates in the meantime by never having to debate again.
    How’s this for a debate redux… same question as in 2007, but replace the late Michael Crichton with the very alive Nir Shaviv (astrophysicist from the Racah Institute of Physics) and returning Lindzen and Stott for the question, and have Schmidt, Mann and John Cook (Mann referred The Union readers to Cook’s misnamed SkepticalScience websiteO to argue against the question.
    No, Cook only has a BS Physics but if that’s enough for Mann for expertise, it’s enough for me. In fact, with my BS Physics and MS Electrical Engineering (Mudd/LMU) and Rebane’s BS Physics and PhD Systems Engineering (UCLA/UCLA) I think that makes us both happy.

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  5. Don Bessee Avatar
    Don Bessee

    Now BBC has gone and ruined frischys et al (s) night. UN climate negotiations headed to failure. Not everyone was ok with getting their pockets picked.

    Like

  6. Gregory Avatar
    Gregory

    Checking Heidi Hall’s bio, she got her BA International Relations (a science-lite field of study if there ever was one) at my old digs at the Claremont Colleges. In her case, Pomona College from 79 to 83. I played principal trumpet in the Pomona College Symphony for my first 2 1/2 years in Clareville as a Mudd physics major just before her time. Small world. Go Sagehens 🙂

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  7. Gregory Avatar
    Gregory

    Here’s the BBC story:
    “The UN climate negotiations are heading for failure and need a major redesign if they are to succeed, scientists say.”
    http://www.bbc.com/news/science-environment-34489266
    Funny, Mann didn’t say it. Maybe he will in his next piece in The Union; he seems to be on a roll there.

    Like

  8. Don Bessee Avatar
    Don Bessee

    Awww Gregory why did you do his work for him. He has google. lol

    Like

  9. Steven Frisch Avatar
    Steven Frisch

    Posted by: Gregory | 11 October 2015 at 06:04 PM
    “The UN climate negotiations are heading for failure and need a major redesign if they are to succeed, scientists say.”
    http://www.nature.com/news/price-carbon-i-will-if-you-will-1.18538
    Funny I get Nature but my current copy has not arrived, so I went to the web site to read the article and nowhere do the actual scientists say that “the UN climate negotiations are headed for failure.” That is a lead in to the BBC story but nowhere in the Nature article.
    Ironically, I agree that a global uniform price on carbon would work better than a patchwork of carbon taxes and cap and trade programs, but I just don’t think we can get there yet. I would consider Paris successful if we left with an enforceable commitment from the top 20 carbon emitting nations which would cover about 85% of all emissions, and it looks like were are almost there. The only one I doubt can sign a binding agreement is Iran at number 15 due to uncertainty about availability of nuclear power.
    To characterize the article as saying anything less than a global price a failure was not only not said by the authors, I think it is inaccurate. I believe that once nations begin charging for carbon emissions, and get systems in place, they will gradually normalize their systems. There would be a number of drivers that would lead to normalization; the need for common systems for international business, the need to compensate low emitting emerging economies for mitigation measures, and the need for common pricing for international trading amongst them.
    On another thread Ben Emery critiqued Cap and Trade (in favor of a national carbon tax) which is being proposed by Senator Sheldon Whitehouse and supported by former Republican Congressman Bob Ingalls of South Carolina. I had a chance to sit down with Senator Whitehouse and former Congressman Bog Ingalls two weeks ago when I was in DC and we had a good conversation about the compatibility of California’s Cap and Trade system with a national carbon tax. They see the two as entirely consistent and expect the California system to satisfy their proposed requirement for a price on carbon under the national tax system should it pass. Of course the problem with Ben’s theory that a national carbon tax is preferable is that under the current Congress there is not a chance in hell that it will pass so it is an exercise in Emeryesque magical thinking.
    The alternative, the Clean Power Plan, has the same effect of a Cap and Trade system and is moving forward under executive order. My prediction is once its in place even a Republican President does not overturn it, because it satisfies what is likely to come out of Paris.
    But of course none of this means anything to you guys because you think the moon is made of green cheese.

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  10. Todd Juvinall Avatar

    Gregory has science, Steve Frisch has, well, pancakes. Who you gonna believe?

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  11. George Rebane Avatar

    StevenF 723pm – Wrong again. All this means a lot to us because the broader acceptance of C&T will depend on corporatism as expressed through K Street and the PACs. We really do understand both international finance and trade. Corporatists don’t give a big rat’s ass about C&T or any other uniformly applied perverse regulations as long as it 1) raises the bar for competitors not able to absorb the added costs, 2) retains/increases their market shares, and 3) limits the arrival of available alternatives to the products/services they sell. To them C&T is just another government regulatory crutch to keep their corporate interests viable.
    And in this age of increasing globalism (i.e. international trade, TPP, …) it is, of course, better if all competitors in all their market countries are subjected to the same strictures. This guarantees the corporatists’ state of wellbeing no matter what happens. It is simply the application of international ‘Broken Windows’ on steroids without having to give a shit for the environment, but appearing to do so.

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  12. Bill Tozer Avatar
    Bill Tozer

    Good gawd Steve F. You sat down with Sheldon Whitehouse two weeks ago?? Sheldon is the Gomer’s Pile that introduced the legislation to charge deniers with RICO Act felonies. Shelton is your poster boy for Dr. Rebane’s post about the libgrunt mind, climate change that can be changed, and CENSORSHIP.
    Thanks for dropping the little teenie weenie tidbit after bolviating for the last two days. Now, it’s all making sense, you poisoner of my people’s water. Silence dissent, eh Steve?
    I bet you are not the least bit ashamed of the carbon footprint you created on your trip to DC and back. Did you ride your trike or hike?

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  13. Bill Tozer Avatar
    Bill Tozer

    Steve, my good man. You say capitalism is the best way to distribute things and lift the boat, but I wonder about you sometimes.
    https://www.facebook.com/RowdyConservatives/photos/a.217983685002343.55586.217926015008110/740148396119200/?type=3&theater

    Like

  14. Don Bessee Avatar
    Don Bessee

    Perhaps the strategy is to go after the global warming alarmists financial networks for RICO. The nexus between eco non profs, political contributions from the 0 crowd and govt backed loans that only ended up helping the Chinese govt is a ripe pile of poop for financial shenanigans disclosures.

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  15. Steven Frisch Avatar
    Steven Frisch

    So sue me Don so I can own you double wide in Alta Sierra 🙂

    Like

  16. Steven Frisch Avatar
    Steven Frisch

    Posted by: George Rebane | 11 October 2015 at 07:43 PM
    Wow George, you have become such an anti-corporatist. It would be nice if your anti-corporatist philosophy had had a bearing on your position on trade, corporate personhood and Citizen’s United, but of course I don’t expect you to see the inconsistency there.
    Of course I am a little more pragmatic; corporations are a fact of life, like shingles, but still a fact of life, and working with them to construct a scheme that works is a necessity. Without their participation and support we will never get an international system in place.
    For many corporations the considerations go well beyond having a predictable system, and I for one do not believe that anti-competitive measures are a primary motivating factor; they are facing an increasing uncertain world where major re-insurance companies will no longer cover climate risk if corporations don’t take action and put in place resilience plans. Roughly 2/3rds of the Fortune 1000 companies currently either have corporate sustainability officers in C suite positions doing so or are committed to do so. Sure many of them are a sham, but its our job to hold them accountable for better environmental stewardship and of course regulate to do so.
    Corporations also have a real problem (risk) of potentially stranded assets; both for fossil fuel based companies, and for companies that depend upon infrastructure located in or dependent upon ports, located along coasts, and in agriculture, forestry, mining and manufacturing, from extreme weather events and supply chain interruptions. They are facing a world where companies that do have a climate reliance strategy will gain market share over them, so they have to do it to remain competitive.
    By the way, I did not know that you believed that corporate interests don’t give a shit about the environment, I will remember that the next time you claim regulation is unnecessary, but the truth is corporations are constantly getting better at protecting the environment and I for one believe they should be encouraged to ‘internalize the externalities’.

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  17. Bill Tozer Avatar
    Bill Tozer

    Geez, Steve, what is all this “sue me” talk? Guess you learned that from The Sierra Clubbers. Oh well.
    Now I have heard of debtor’s prison and the Black Hole of Calcutta, but nary a word about Sheldon Whitehouse’s Deniers Prison.
    Mr. Don: The recovery is really gaining steam.
    https://www.facebook.com/lastamericapatriots/photos/a.235087906641439.1073741826.235086849974878/561941357289424/?type=3&theater

    Like

  18. Todd Juvinall Avatar

    Hey DonB take Steve Frisch up on his wish to be sued. I have some connections with some folks who might finance that. You might end up with his single wide next the the dump in Truckee! And the pig sties too!

    Like

  19. Steven Frisch Avatar
    Steven Frisch

    Posted by: Bill Tozer | 11 October 2015 at 07:46 PM
    Seriously Bill have I not made it perfectly clear that I think the fossil fuel industry has engaged in potentially criminal behavior and has funded an intricate web of faux science, public relations campaigns, political candidates, bloggers, and dark money interest groups that are hell bent of continuing to destroy our environment because they don’t give a shit about people or the future of the planet?
    But I think you are wrong about two things. First I don’t think Senator Whitehouse ‘introduced legislation’ to prosecute the fossil fuel industry, he said it should be done through the courts. Second, I don’t think he said scientists should be prosecuted, he said the companies that funded the scientists should be prosecutes AS PART Of their broader criminal conspiracy.
    Here is the original source.
    https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/the-fossil-fuel-industrys-campaign-to-mislead-the-american-people/2015/05/29/04a2c448-0574-11e5-8bda-c7b4e9a8f7ac_story.html
    I am kind of agnostic on this issue, only because I think it would take too long and wouldn’t return enough mullah quickly enough to bother. I would rather get an international system to price carbon in place and I think RICO prosecution would inhibit that.
    Plus when is it wrong to sit down and talk to someone? I would talk to Ted Cruz or Trey Goudy why not Senator Whitehuse and Bob Ingalls?

    Like

  20. Steven Frisch Avatar
    Steven Frisch

    Posted by: Don Bessee | 11 October 2015 at 07:59 PM
    Posted by: Bill Tozer | 11 October 2015 at 08:31 PM
    Bill did you miss Don suggesting legal action first?

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  21. Steven Frisch Avatar
    Steven Frisch

    Posted by: Todd Juvinall | 11 October 2015 at 08:51 PM
    That is ‘pigsty’ bubba!

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  22. Bill Tozer Avatar
    Bill Tozer

    Ok, Steve, you are right. Sheldon only called for the Justice Department to come down hard on deniers. Stick them with RICO violations. Might was well have the Koch Brothers in the slammer so we can keep an eye on them and control what they could say on any consensus issue.
    Without deniers, you could have a true consensus. I stand corrected about Sheldon seeking legislation. Old story anyway, just about 2 weeks ago. Hmmmmm. I am not wrong, however, about Whitehouse the White Dude is one big Gomer’s Pile, Winnie’s Poo, and Moby’s Dick all rolled into one. Literature and the Arts rock.

    Like

  23. Don Bessee Avatar
    Don Bessee

    Too many martinis frichy? ‘I can own you double wide’. Folks lets send frichy a thank you card for his alinsky in action 101 class. For special credit review reverend wrights diatribe. Socialists, you fail again. Have a good week!:-)

    Like

  24. Bill Tozer Avatar
    Bill Tozer

    Just about 30 minutes from now, the Alter Ego “us” will appear. Oh goodie. I best hide in the Sandbox.

    Like

  25. Gregory Avatar
    Gregory

    Let’s go to the end of the Senator Whitehouse screed:

    “To be clear: I don’t know whether the fossil fuel industry and its allies engaged in the same kind of racketeering activity as the tobacco industry. We don’t have enough information to make that conclusion. Perhaps it’s all smoke and no fire. But there’s an awful lot of smoke.”

    Whitehouse is just blowing smoke; it’s the empty template they’ve been using from the beginning… they need the energy industries to be following the tobacco script ’cause that’s all the warmists have, but unfortunately, the only one injured in the volley was Dr. Shukla, the lead signatory to the RICO letter. As a direct result, Shukla was caught illegally profiteering from the grants he was running through his own non-profit and paying nice salaries to himself, his wife and daughter.
    http://townhall.com/columnists/walterewilliams/2015/10/07/suppressing-free-speech-n2061331/page/full
    Steven, did Sen. Whitehouse have one of these on his desk when you chatted?
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tobacco_smoke_enema

    Like

  26. Don Bessee Avatar
    Don Bessee

    Perhaps my 759 struck too close to home somewhere in the grant world. Please define which criminal enterprise definition I mentioned that you fall into frichy? The truth is an absolute defense and what is it you are worried about being accused of other than lily whiteness?

    Like

  27. Steven Frisch Avatar
    Steven Frisch

    Posted by: Don Bessee | 11 October 2015 at 10:29 PM
    Why none Don.I am as clean as a whistle. And you?

    Like

  28. Gregory Avatar
    Gregory

    Frisch:
    “To be clear: I don’t know whether the fossil fuel industry and its allies engaged in the same kind of racketeering activity as the tobacco industry. We don’t have enough information to make that conclusion.”-Sen. Whitehouse
    That’s all you got.

    Like

  29. Todd Juvinall Avatar

    Frisch is now writing comments supporting censorship on the Hall opinion piece on the Union. The fellow is touched.

    Like

  30. Bill Tozer Avatar
    Bill Tozer

    Maybe we all can pitch in and send Steve to Paris. Yes, there is a catch. While Steve is running around the Romatic City seeking enforceable promises from the Top 20 and a bunch of others trying to break into the top 20 Coaches’s poll, he would have to make an enforceable promise to us that he won’t come back. We will even sweeten the pot by upgrading Mr. F to first class. The southern side of France is a nice to set down roots.
    Imagine Steve owning Todd or Don’s humble abodes. That would be the epitome of “there goes the neighborhood”. Save Western Nevada County, sent Steve to ole Parie!

    Like

  31. Steven Frisch Avatar
    Steven Frisch

    Posted by: Gregory | 11 October 2015 at 11:29 PM
    Greg, I think I stated that I am agnostic the RICO issue. As far as what Senator Whitehouse has he merely pointed out the similarity between the RICO statute prosecution of big tobacco and the fossil fuel industry and left it up to States and the Justice Department to follow up at their will.
    But as I said RICO is not what I was in DC to discuss; a national system to price carbon, whether through a carbon tax as Senator Whitehouse is proposing or by other means.
    But what we do have is the Presidents Clean Power Plan:
    http://www2.epa.gov/cleanpowerplan/clean-power-plan-existing-power-plants
    The rule is in place and will be in effect shortly. The plan calls for States to come up with s system to regulate carbon emissions or join the federally designed system. Most States are opting to follow the federal system, whites in effect a Cap and Trade system.
    So what “I got’ was a system to price carbon in federal law. I am happy with that as a first step.

    Like

  32. Steven Frisch Avatar
    Steven Frisch

    Posted by: Bill Tozer | 12 October 2015 at 07:32 AM
    Why shucks, if ya’ all want to send me to Paris for COP I would be glad to go. I would even take a one way ticket and two weeks lodging. I can pick up the return trip to start working on implementation myself.

    Like

  33. Bill Tozer Avatar
    Bill Tozer

    Good plan. I will start shaking down the homeless for pennies and the occasional nickel to fund the airfare for ya. A worthy cause.
    Steve, I wish you would cease these racial slips of yours. Maybe it is just a pigment of your imagination, but I find this kind of language revolting at best.
    “Most states opting to follow the federal system, whites in effect a Cap and Trade….”, Steve F @ 7:34 am, just minutes ago. Whites in effect? There you go again with your white priveledge talk, grease spot

    Like

  34. Steven Frisch Avatar
    Steven Frisch

    Well of course that should read, “with in effect a …” Bubba.

    Like

  35. Bill Tozer Avatar
    Bill Tozer

    Sure, anything you say.

    Like

  36. Gregory Avatar
    Gregory

    “Greg, I think I stated that I am agnostic the RICO issue”
    “have I not made it perfectly clear that I think the fossil fuel industry has engaged in potentially criminal behavior and has funded an intricate web of faux science, public relations campaigns, political candidates, bloggers, and dark money interest groups that are hell bent of continuing to destroy our environment because they don’t give a shit about people or the future of the planet?”
    That’s a strange sort of agnosticism you got there, Steve.

    Like

  37. Todd Juvinall Avatar

    I wonder if the eco non-profit industry shsters were under the same kind of daily attack by people and government if they would do whatever it takes to survive or just fade away quietly.

    Like

  38. Gregory Avatar
    Gregory

    “It’s very sad that in this country, political opinion parted [people’s views on climate change]. I’m 100 per cent Democrat myself, and I like Obama. But he took the wrong side on this issue, and the Republicans took the right side.”
    -Freeman Dyson, yesterday in The Register
    http://www.theregister.co.uk/2015/10/11/freeman_dyson_interview/
    For those who don’t know the fellow, he’s the preeminent surviving 20th century physicist, one of the greats.

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  39. fish Avatar
    fish

    Posted by: Gregory | 12 October 2015 at 11:07 AM
    Feh……he’s obviously in the pocket of Big Oil!

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  40. Steven Frisch Avatar
    Steven Frisch

    Posted by: Gregory | 12 October 2015 at 09:13 AM
    Greg, perhaps you need to look up the definition of agnosticism.
    I amy believe that the fossil fuel industry has engaged in potentially criminal behavior and believe that prosecution of that behavior would be counter-productive at the same time.
    You failed to quote this portion of my statement: “I am kind of agnostic on this issue, only because I think it would take too long and wouldn’t return enough mullah quickly enough to bother. I would rather get an international system to price carbon in place and I think RICO prosecution would inhibit that.”
    By posting one portion of my statement without the other you are engaging in exactly the type of cherry picking that makes your clique lose credibility.

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  41. Gregory Avatar
    Gregory

    fish, I’m more interested in how Frisch will swim away from this one. Another quote of fact from Dyson:
    [Are climate models getting better? You wrote how they have the most awful fudges, and they only really impress people who don’t know about them.]

    I would say the opposite. What has happened in the past 10 years is that the discrepancies between what’s observed and what’s predicted have become much stronger. It’s clear now the models are wrong, but it wasn’t so clear 10 years ago.

    Let’s remember that the only significant evidence for catastrophic warming are the model outputs.

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  42. Gregory Avatar
    Gregory

    fish, I’m more interested in how Frisch will swim away from this one. Another quote of fact from Dyson:
    [Are climate models getting better? You wrote how they have the most awful fudges, and they only really impress people who don’t know about them.]

    I would say the opposite. What has happened in the past 10 years is that the discrepancies between what’s observed and what’s predicted have become much stronger. It’s clear now the models are wrong, but it wasn’t so clear 10 years ago.

    Let’s remember that the only significant evidence for catastrophic warming are the model outputs.

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  43. Steven Frisch Avatar
    Steven Frisch

    Posted by: Todd Juvinall | 12 October 2015 at 09:43 AM
    Todd once again missing the reality. “Eco nonprofits” have been subject to exactly the same type of attacks that oil companies and their allies have been for years. The attack has only tended to make them more powerful and influential in public policy. Polarization strengthens the most radical elements of a debate. That is precisely why I am agnostic on RICO; I believe it would strengthen the companies not weaken them.

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  44. Gregory Avatar
    Gregory

    Frisch, it’s clear you’re a Believer in Petrol as organized crime, you just don’t think it’s necessarily worth prosecuting; why bother when, thanks to ‘executive action’ you’ve an undemocratic and unscientific lynch mob on the way to take care of it.

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  45. Steven Frisch Avatar
    Steven Frisch

    Posted by: Gregory | 12 October 2015 at 11:43 AM
    The flaw in your logic is the belief that it is only climate models that are proof of climate change. The truths there is a very wide body of observed data supporting anthropogenic climate change at the same time that climate models are predicting it. We have observed proof in the form of sea level rise, changes in vegetation cover, migration patterns of species, ocean temperature rise, ocean acidification, shrinking ice sheets, declining arctic sea ice, glacial retreat, and decreased snow cover amongst many other observed changes.
    Models are only one tool to measure change.

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  46. Walt Avatar

    Bill. According to the government on whole milk consumption, I should be LONG dead by now.
    Or at least 300 lbs. ( not even close to either) And I alone go through an easy half gallon of cow squeez’ns a day.
    On the bogus AGW cow manure, the true believers (like Steve) can’t deal in facts.( unless those (ha)facts are manufactured) They sure love those programmable computers. No matter what is put into them, they cough up a preconceived outcome. ( Like a rigged slot machine in Vegas.)
    Some years back a volcano blew it’s top and dropped the world temps. The ECO bastards just “adjusted” the real numbers, and made that cooling “go away”. ( Steve..That’s called manufactured data)
    It’s settled. The ECO bastards are lying, and should be jailed for fraud.

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  47. George Rebane Avatar

    StevenF 1200pm – … and none of those topical observables indicate climate parameters that are out of the range of their normal historical variabilities. And BTW models are not a “tool to measure change”, but only to predict it under various input scenarios. The arguments to support catastrophic climate change predictions through current measurables are simply bankrupt, and endure in the media only through political diktats.

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