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Believers, make war on the infidels who dwell around you. Deal firmly with them. Know that God is with the righteous. Quran 9:123

George Rebane

Republican candidate Dr Ben Carson set off the most recent political dust-devil predictable with his response to whether he would support a Muslim becoming President of the United States.  However, the question of devout Muslims serving in governments is an important issue today when radical Islam and Islam colonizing the west have become the worldโ€™s most destabilizing socio-political forces against which secular humanism and collectivist ideologies are not only helpless but actually abetting.

Muslim_PresidentTo examine this issue we must first look at manโ€™s belief systems regarding his cosmology and ideology.  By cosmology we mean the entirety of his picture of existence ranging from the structure of the universe(s) to the humongous Planck scale ocean of quantum events in which we all swim and derive our being.  Cosmology also subsumes or is subsumed by a personโ€™s religion.

By ideology we mean a personโ€™s set of structured tenets that describe his vision or preference of a particular socio-political order that guides, controls, and informs human activity on earth.  Here we divide such ideologies into loose categories of collectivism โ€“ e.g. communism and socialism of the international or national kind โ€“ and classical liberalism as bequeathed by our Founders and clarified by, say, Frederic Bastiatโ€™s The Law.

Over the years RR has been fortunate to be a forum for the arguments from heartfelt adherents of a wide range of ideologies and cosmologies/religions embraced by its readers and commenters.  And as such, these debates again underline that a devout personโ€™s religion trumps his ideology โ€“ Godโ€™s plan and druthers supersede that of Man.  In all nations with a religious citizenry allegiance is paid to โ€˜God and countryโ€™ in that order.


Religions divide themselves into โ€˜End-timerโ€™ cosmologies and all others.  The End-timers believe that man is a transcendent critter in the sense that his existence transcends his current travails on earth, which itself is a proving ground wherein Man makes his decision for God or Evil/devil and is then judged by God on his efforts.  But the common denominator in the greater scheme of things is that human life on earth is an interlude that precedes a stable eternity fashioned variously depending on religious teachings.  All that we see here and in the reaches of space will someday (maybe soon?) come to an end as God the Creator takes us into the next phase of his plan for us.

End-timer religions also differentiate themselves as to what Manโ€™s agenda should be while on earth.  For example, Christians have the Great Commission in going to the nations and teaching the Gospel of Jesus Christ as the historical incarnation of God.  Their scriptural guidance on socio-politics is sparse in details and summarized in the strong yet still vague โ€œRender therefore unto Caesar the things which are Caesar’s; and unto God the things that are God’s.โ€ (KJV)

To understand Islamโ€™s teachings, one must first be aware of โ€˜The Doctrine of Abrogationโ€™ regarding the Quran, which simply directs the believer to hold the later entry as truth when encountering an obvious contradiction between earlier and subsequent parts of the scripture.  This is important because about 20% of the Quran was written in Mecca when the Prophet Muhammad was first revealing the new religion.  Islam was then weak and sought adherents with a message of peace and hope.  The remaining 80% of the Quran was written after Muslims overran Medina and the faith was finding success in its forceful dissemination.  The โ€˜Medina Quranโ€™ reveals that Allah has little mercy for those who reject Islam and those who become apostate.  Death to the infidels is a common and oft repeated theme in that part of the book.

Allah also spells out that Islamโ€™s great commission is the creation of the Caliphate, a one-world Islamic theocratic state under which man is ruled by Sharia law.  A devout Muslim holds most dear such a future for all humankind, and must seek to bring it about before Allah terminates this phase of his plan for us.  And the Quran teaches that the community of believers โ€“ The Ummah โ€“ must work tirelessly to bring about the Caliphate by either conquest or conspiracy.  In the latter approach all Muslims may use any and all forms of dissimulation to achieve their end.  These means are called Taqiyyah and Kitman and described in the Quran.

A devout Muslim holds these tenets most dear to their heart since they are the explicit desires and dictates of Allah.  Neither I nor anyone of whom I know has the ability to discern whether a Muslim we meet is dissembling or not.  In todayโ€™s politically correct public forums we are not even permitted to question someoneโ€™s faith in its make-up and practice.  But given its tenets, Islam is definitely not a faith whose teachings are in concordance with western values, mores, or its liberal forms of governance.

I cannot blame Muslims for the practice of their faith.  Were I to believe that my God wants me to work for the Caliphate, and possibly sacrifice myself in the process so as to earn the eternal gift of paradise, then my commission and reward could not be more clear and definite.  Given the means Allah has blessed me with, I would do what I could โ€“ colonize, proselytize, work patiently among infidels, practice taqiyyah/kitman, fight, or even blow myself up โ€“ to do his will.

It is in light of these arguments that responsible and courageous national leaders like Dr Carson state that they would not support a Muslim as our president.  He did give some caveats under which he would support Muslims in Congress (perhaps since two of them are already ensconced there).  My own position is much stronger โ€“ I do not support a devout Muslim having any public office or post that may put him in a position to do harm to our nation and advance the cause of Islam which in the large I oppose.

[25sep15 update]  That Islam is a religion still mired in its own middle years is clear to most westerners.  That the belief system is toxic to western civilization is disputed only by the ever-blind Left.  Most certainly todayโ€™s dominant Islamists (joined by the Muslim main street) donโ€™t deny that toxicity, and see a future in which the world, through their efforts, belongs to Allah.

The question I raised above expands on the one posed to Dr Carson.  The Islamic problem is outlined sufficiently to invite serious discussion of how a liberal sovereign nation-state protects itself against its own citizens (and legal residents) embracing such a belief system.  The problem is made more complex because of the endemic provisions of Islam โ€“ e.g. Abrogation and Taqiyyah/Kitman โ€“ that exhort its adherents to dissemble their beliefs, and to commit widespread random acts of violence/terror in the name of their god.  (Consider the value of a poll of Americaโ€™s Muslims.)

Because of that, as Islam grows in the Mideast and Africa, and European colonization proceeds a pace, it can be argued that our indigenous Muslims will evolve into a virulent and palpable fifth column within our borders.  We are already witness to early evidence of that.

It is established common wisdom that we deny the full franchise of citizenship to individuals who subscribe to socio-political ideologies inimical to the continued existence of our constitutional America.  And most reasonable people understand the hierarchical primacy of cosmology/religion being the dominant informer and motivator of human behavior.  For religionists itโ€™s acceding to the will of their God; for secular humanists itโ€™s the cosmological frame that makes them first โ€˜citizens of the world/earth/Gaiaโ€™ before they are Americans.

Yet given this, we have no innate policy to deal with those whose stronger convictionโ€“ their faith โ€“ dictates our demise as a nation.  Indeed, we seem to be hamstrung by our founding document that proscribes a personโ€™s religion for having anything to do with their permitted and condoned conduct in the public domain.  That this provision (Art3/3) was embedded to address a different problem and achieve a totally different end in our republic seems to be beyond the ken of many of us, primarily of the progressive persuasion.  And no reasonable person would argue that the Constitution was meant to serve as a national suicide pact.

So there is a lot of discussion and debate that this serious issue invites before we again find ourselves in extremis as in days of yore, and  then in panic cobble together public policies that herd people into the next network of nationwide Manzanars โ€“ federal plans already provided for in the National Defense Authorization Act and detailed by various FEMA and DOD manuals.

However, we see in the lamestream media and even in the RR comment streams the utter inability of the Left to enter into a cogent discussion of this matter.  Their participation immediately calls for diversion and dissolution of โ€˜Islamists as a fifth columnโ€™ into convoluted arguments of separation of church and state, the Second Amendment, and God knows what else that can be dredged up to avoid the issue and denigrate those who dare raise it.  A common tactic to dissemble is to demand that commentaries like mine are attributed proposals for specific policies the implementation of which must be spelled out before discussion can commence.  Even the casual reader (of goodwill) can see that neither I nor Dr Carson put forth any such proposals, but merely raised the issue to invite further discussion.

But as with so many other national concerns, the gulf between the Left and Right has widened to the extent that no reasonable and focused discussion is possible on matters such as healthcare, Americaโ€™s role as hegemon, preventable global warming, role of government, income/wealth inequality, competing economic systems, โ€ฆ .  To that we now add what I will name the Westโ€™s Problem with Islam (WPI).  Its very existence will be denied until the next thousands die en masse within our borders, and then โ€ฆ

Posted in , , ,

62 responses to “Muslims in Government (updated 25sep15)”

  1. Son of Jon Avatar
    Son of Jon

    Article 6, paragraph 3 states that .. no religous test shall ever be required as a qualification to any office or public trust under the United States. End of story. Carson is a religious zealot in his own right. Add him along with Huckabee to the growing list of people who should have no part in politics.

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  2. ConservtvForum Avatar

    Okay…. and why would Huckabee be excluded?
    Is it because you don’t want Christian fundamentalists as a president?
    Many that are knowledgeable of Islam don’t consider it a real religion but an ideology.
    Putting someone in charge of America that believes in sharia law would be a travesty. There is no way this can stand side by side with the Constitution.
    Geert Wilders knows about Islam. Here is what he told us.
    https://youtu.be/EtTsHNC5iiw
    Howard

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  3. George Rebane Avatar

    SoJon 336pm – Excellent point, I was hoping for its early inclusion in this comment stream. To that I would add Art 3 Sec 3 on treason.
    When I and my family immigrated in 1949, we and all like us were screened extensively (a 3.5 month process) to make sure we had not a hint of any prior relation to or favorable sentiments of Nazism or communism – both ideologies. That was to satisfy America’s security interests.
    Now a person’s religion, as mentioned above, trumps his ideology in the hierarchy of belief systems. Islam declares daily in its scripture, writings, exhortations of its leaders, and its horrific acts on multiple continents that it is the mortal enemy of the west in general and America in particular. I don’t think that such considerations entered the Founders’ minds when they wrote Art 6 Sec 3. And as progressives keep harping that the Constitution is a dated document and should be interpreted with the times, I wonder how a progressive like you (a secular humanist?) brings all that into concordance. Oh yes, I do realize that in some ideologies such concordance is not a requirement. If so, then crickets will do.

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  4. Jon Avatar
    Jon

    Hey my son, I agree. Carson is quite dangerous with his views on the world around him. And on his obvious insanity on vaccines. Don’t think he will ultimately have what it takes to cross the line of nomination. To his credit, he is blunt with his wacked views of world events. Huckabee is a side show only, to assure his radio show will survive another few years- for whoever is listening. Cruz, not a chance, Rubio, not this time, Paul- has been destroyed from within, Christie- unlikable, scandal ridden, career mostly over in public sector. KASICH is the only hope for the Republicans in the General.

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  5. Son of Jon Avatar
    Son of Jon

    A Muslim fundamentalist in office is no different than a Christian fundamentalist in office. Both have their belief systems firmly in place. Would they be able to keep their wacky beliefs to themselves? Carson did not specify what kind of Muslim he did not want in public office. According to Carson any and all Muslims, fundamentalist or otherwise, are not welcome in his world.
    A zealot will not be elected as President. The people understand this and would not nominate a zealot. That is why Carson and Huckabee can save their money and go home now. Nobody wants to listen to their Bible based so called truths.
    The fear mongers among us want us believe that a secret Muslim is already in the Oval office wearing Christian robes. These people are a waste of space…politically speaking.

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  6. George Rebane Avatar

    SoJon 441pm – I believe you have established your bona fides as a direct relative of our regular ‘Jon’. You also have difficulty understanding the main points of my commentaries. Comparing a Christian fundamentalist in office to a Muslim fundamentalist similarly placed reveals pretty much all we need to know about your reading skills and thought processes.
    ‘How do the beliefs of Christian and Muslim fundamentalists differ viz their attitudes toward America?’ would be a great question on a standardized test for 8th graders.

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  7. Scott Obermuller Avatar

    “A zealot will not be elected as President.”
    SoJ at 4:41
    As opposed to the one that was elected to the office twice?
    Or did you just propose a religious test?

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  8. fish Avatar
    fish

    Posted by: Jon | 23 September 2015 at 04:30 PM
    Always make sure to let a progressive dictate your choices political gentlemen! That’s a sure fire winning strategy!
    Frankly I’d rather have Biden…..jon says he’s an excellent debater….and frankly since the democrats have managed to shun him on numerous previous opportunities…. much like Dole, McCain, etc. on the Republican side, surely it’s “Shotgun Joes” time to shine!

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  9. Jon Avatar
    Jon

    fish, you must be forgetting the verbal beat-down Joe inflicted on poor Paul Ryan, who was at a loss for anything to counter Joe’s nice blend of humanity and comfort with the facts. Paul Ryan was picked for the precise reason that he could run circles around anyone when it came to knowing facts and figures.

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  10. George Rebane Avatar

    fish 709pm & jon 715pm – not sure what these candidacies have to do with Muslims and/or other zealots holding public office – the sandbox awaiteth.

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  11. fish Avatar
    fish

    Posted by: George Rebane | 23 September 2015 at 07:16 PM
    As shown in the commenter/time reference. Response to yet another jon post offering to save the republican party from itself in a thread having nothing to do with the topic at hand.

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  12. Bill Tozer Avatar
    Bill Tozer

    The operative word here is devote. If someone was, say, a Muslim in name only, no one would have any problem with it. Just look how Romney was racked over the coals because of his odd sect called the Mormons. I do not think that Romney would answer to Joseph Smith in lieu of the Constitution if he was President. Sure, his moral values of being a nice guy, a good husband, father, neighbor, leader, President, or the guy you see driving by testify to his regilious beliefs. It is a flaw in politics not to hit the other guy with both fists, thus in the political world, he was not a good fit for the job.
    Nobody has a problem with any Muslim in name only. The devotees are a whole different ball of wax. Islam is a political system, not just some spiritual beliefs one has. Loosely akin to electing an Orthodox Jew as opposed to a Jewish person who visits the synagogue now and then, aka, the typical American Jew like Debbie.
    If one believes in their heart of heart that this nation should put any village no matter how small under Sharia Law or like the children in Iran that have to repeat several times daily in school from day one that Ametica is the Great Satan and it becomes ingrained in their little consciousness and world view, then that person should not be President of the United States if they held those beliefs. Maybe dean or department head somewhere or even a mayor, but not President or Cabinet member.
    There is that oath part (with or without a Bible) that they swear to uphold and defend the Constitution. Think that is asking too much of the zealots, if they are honest within themselves. Now a great deceiver might sneak in, but there is the other branches of gov’t to rein him/her in….hopefully. Islam is not compatible with life, liberty, or the pursuit of happiness. Obedience to Allah or even plain o’ obedience are not words we usually toss around a lot in democracies.
    Vetting is a good thing.
    An unrelated link, but perhaps some light on the subject.
    http://woundedamericanwarrior.com/breaking-mainstream-media-stated-immigrant-was-tripped-proven-false-he-is-actually-a-known-terrorist-leader-video/

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  13. Ben Emery Avatar
    Ben Emery

    Just for the record.
    This treaty was signed into law by John Adams, one of the founders that had a good grasp of the spirit in which the United States was created.
    Treaty of Peace and Friendship, Signed at Tripoli November 4, 1796
    ARTICLE 11.
    As the government of the United States of America is not in any sense founded on the Christian Religion,-as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion or tranquility of Musselmen,-and as the said States never have entered into any war or act of hostility against any Mehomitan nation, it is declared by the parties that no pretext arising from religious opinions shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries.

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  14. Todd Juvinall Avatar
    Todd Juvinall

    Things change. You tell us all the time we’ve got to get hip to new. The new is maybe Muslims would not be a good fit.

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  15. George Rebane Avatar

    BenE 921pm – This is 2015 Ben, what is your point?

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  16. Bill Tozer Avatar
    Bill Tozer

    Oh, any U.S. citizen that was born here and is of the age of 35 and is not a convicted felon (?) can become President of this country. The question remains if you want to have a doomsday prophet with his finger on the button believing lauching a massive first strike would usher in his religious brave new world?
    Supposed Johnny Reb got radicalized and had no felonies, was born here, and age 35. Perhaps an articulate clean good looking Negro…er…Muslim to play off Biden’s characterization of Obama. Yes, he can run, but should he be the leader of the free world. Hell no. His believe system is all those who won’t pay the Islam Tax or convert to Islam after a warning should be stuck across the shoulder with the blade, i.e., beheaded. That is why the most devote Muslims behead, as per the teachings of the Prophet. Does not say guns or blow them up, just strike across the shoulder with the blade.
    Should an anarchist be elected as President? No, even though he/she is eligible to run. It’s that pesky solemnly swear to defend and uphold the Constition part again.
    Let’s not confuse can/cannot with should/should not.

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  17. Todd Juvinall Avatar
    Todd Juvinall

    I seem to recall a couple of airline pilots who wanted to see Allah. They hid their doomsday and took a lot of innocent people with them. Also, how about a Boko Haram black. Now there is a real winner for President.
    Just like the left is always ragging on we conservatives who believe in the sanctity of the Constitution that it needs to a “living” document and how it needs to be brought up to date, I say well, Hmmm. We should allow a person who believes a guy is gonna jump out of a well and we all die night not be a good fit.

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  18. Steven Frisch Avatar
    Steven Frisch

    “And as such, these debates again underline that a devout personโ€™s religion trumps his ideology โ€“ Godโ€™s plan and druthers supersede that of Man. In all nations with a religious citizenry allegiance is paid to โ€˜God and countryโ€™
    Actually there is a substantial body of people in the country for whom the dictum “God and Country” does not mean the same thing it does for George, and many of them are Christians. The premise of your piece is that rational man is somehow incapable of separating cosmology and ideology, or from separating ideology from decision-making, and that is a false premise.
    So if I were a Christian, and the portion of Christianity I adopted to guide my life were a code of ethics and philosophical belief system that respects life, honors certain traditions, and elevates doing good over doing evil, and I applied that code to governance, and I separated my personal belief system from the making decisions under the equal protection doctrine, which is what many Christians do, I would be perfectly appropriate in a position of governance.
    To think that a substantial portion of the Muslim community odes not hold a similar code seems to me to be illogical. I know a number of Muslims who do not believe in the creation of the Caliphate, a one-world Islamic theocratic state under which man is ruled by Sharia law. It is as likely that a Muslim holds their God over their state as it is a Christian.
    ” I do not support a devout Muslim having any public office or post that may put him in a position to do harm to our nation and advance the cause of Islam which in the large I oppose.”
    I take it that means you also would not support a devout Christian as President of the United States because they may confuse cosmology with governance?
    And who is to define what ‘devout’ is?
    The fact that you cannot discern between those who would elevate their religion over the state in the case of Islam, but believe you can in the case of Christianity, or prefer to allow Christians to elevate portions of their church doctrine over the state, which is richly evidenced in comment here, is irrelevant to the Constitution.
    The Constitution allows for no religious test, yours, mine or anyones.

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  19. George Rebane Avatar

    StevenF 949am – Sadly again, you understand none of the premises for the above commentary.
    However, I do maintain that we must take Islam at its word and at its actions. Islam’s word is consistent both in its scripture and the daily utterances of its leaders (secular and spiritual). To devout Muslims the goal of Islam is a noble one. And since I cannot judge the degree of a person’s devotion (especially under the umbrella of taqiyya), I must acknowledge its extent to the benefit of the declared believer instead of arbitrarily imposing my own discount on it.
    I also believe that you have successfully hidden your understanding of the robust difference between cosmological and ideological belief systems.
    And overall, your logic in attempting to equivocate Christianity here is again mind boggling, but totally expected and normative to how you and yours view the world.

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  20. Paul Emery Avatar
    Paul Emery

    George writes:
    ” I do not support a devout Muslim having any public office or post that may put him in a position to do harm to our nation and advance the cause of Islam which in the large I oppose.”
    Does that include Muslim Americans who are in the Military or are school teachers or police officers?

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  21. Walt Avatar

    Paul.. Care to elaborate on the military aspect? Ft. Hood ring a bell?
    That Muslim SOB is a good example of taking a closer look,, and everyone looked the other way because of political correctness.( Oh NOooo… We can’t say or do a thing about his radical statements… Someone will call us racist, and WE might get court marshaled)
    You don’t comprehend the Muslim idealism. It religion over everything else. So. How can you tell just which one’s to trust?
    Like “clock boy”.. That was a setup. NO science project (despite the claim) He didn’t “make it”,( just a gutted radio Shack time piece) and funny,, it didn’t tell time, it counted DOWN. ( Did LIB news publish that?)
    Now the Muslim in the W.H. has sent an invite to the brat.
    Yup,, just another young victim of the anti Muslims…. Right??
    Besides. 1 in 3 believe “O” is Mussy. His actions (or inactions) in the Middle East are pretty good proof. He has backed every radical action over there, and or/ just downplayed it when it didn’t look good for him.

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  22. George Rebane Avatar

    PaulE 1131am – Good question Paul, I was waiting for it. I guess it all depends on the times and the responsibilities considered. I don’t think that Muslim school teachers can do much harm to the nation or the kids while practicing their trade. Were they to convert their classroom into a madrasah, it would be quickly discovered.
    In previous times were you to have a known background as a Nazi (national socialist) or a Communist, you would have been disqualified for all three careers. Today, I would be leery of a Muslim law enforcement officer who would be detailed to guard important national leaders or have access to critical communication and/or energy distribution nodes. In the military, I would not support devout Muslims in the combat arms, and would have the same concerns as for the police in other branches.
    I suppose all of this could change if international Islam took a radically different turn and volubly and repeatedly renounced the scriptural teachings mentioned in my commentary. That could happen. The Jews did it viz their treatment of gentiles and punishments for blasphemy, as did the Christians. Tough question, more to be said.

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  23. Paul Emery Avatar
    Paul Emery

    So George in order for you to feel comfortable with Muslims being in one of those roles (see above) would it not be necessary for applicants to those jobs or military members to state their religious preference before being deployed or accepted for employment. In your view is that Constitutional. It would involve having some kind of check box stating that they are a Muslim. Isn’t a persons religious inspiration a personal and private expression and protected under out Constitution? ?

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  24. Jon Avatar
    Jon

    “He (O) has backed every radical action over there” Walt
    Walt, can please you cite a reliable source where we see Obama backing “radical actions” over there. Whatever that means. Thanks.
    If our President supports such actions in the Middle East, why hasn’t the House GOP or the AG’s office brought the President up on Treason charges by now?

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  25. Walt Avatar

    Really “jon”? You that out of touch? Even LIB news covered a little of it.
    Can you say “pro Muslim Brotherhood”? (until it’s radical anti U.S., and terrorist ties was reported on.) That’s just a small taste. (really small) No run off and do some of your own homework on the subject.
    Double “REALLY”!!!????? The AG??? Your joking…..Right?? And you claim not to smoke dope.

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  26. Bill Tozer Avatar
    Bill Tozer

    Paul, if you added the word “devote” in front of all the times you used “Muslim”, then you would be following along with the post instead of inserting your broken records. Devote Muslim. We are not discussing Muslims (well you seem to be), the topic is should a devote follower of Islam (a political system) be President of these here United State of America. A devote follower of Islam working for the Secret Service, Justice Department, any cabinet position, Intel, CIA, Department of Defense, .Department of Homeland Security, Department of State, or even the Censes Bureau? Or, these new departments of transparency that seem to be popping up all over the place recently. Devote Muslim could be a fire fighter or a school teacher. Lord only knows that they could not do any worse in public education than what we have now.

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  27. Bill Tozer Avatar
    Bill Tozer

    Walt, a lot of us heard most of Obama’s first and top priority in office; The Cairo Speech.
    No use rehashing that Egypt considered The Muslim Brotherhood a terrorist organization and barred them from the speech….until Obama insisted, personally invited them, and sat them in the front row. Must had been thinking of his Grandpappy when he faced the audience, outstretched his arms in a open hug position and said “I am one of you.” Mysteriously, those words have been deleted from the official Whitehouse Transcript of The Cairo Speech. Very odd. Somebody better fire the transcriber or wack her/his pee pee.
    So Walt, I wonder where all this talk about Obama being a Muslim came from? Hmmm. Another one of life’s unsolved mysterious wonders. Now that the heat is on with this Great Migration, suddenly Obama supporters are pointing back to 2008 and say it originated from Hillary’s camp, Oh boy, that poor woman needs to catch a break I tell ya.

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  28. Walt Avatar

    Yes Bill. Interesting how the revisionists work overtime to cover “O”‘s ass.
    Then there is the “fact telling” of Rev. Write. ( remember him “jon”?) Even he told of “O”‘s Muslim ties. ( Or is the Rev. going to hell for lying?)
    How bout the drone strikes? Only POS pickup trucks and low (real low)value targets get waxed by a million dollar missile. No terrorist concentrations. Not even tanks.
    Remember (“jon”) ALL strikes are approved through the W.H. No button gets pushed without “O”‘s approval.( or Valerie Jerrod’s) The lower the Muslim casualties, the better.
    The real question is,, is “O” more Sunni, or Shiite?

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  29. Steven Frisch Avatar
    Steven Frisch

    OK, I see, your defense is that I did not understand what you said. I understood it perfectly. You are willing to accept Christians who hold God over country but not Muslims, even if they hold country over God. I do believe that is both the definition of prejudice, and a religious test.

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  30. Jon Avatar
    Jon

    Oh yeah Walt, obviously he’s Shiite with the Iran deal he forced through. On the other hand, he obviously supports the work of ISIL, so perhaps..wait, no definitely..Sunni! Great question Walt! Perhaps one for the next Repub debate.

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  31. Walt Avatar

    Yes Steve, Christians don’t separate you head from you body if you don’t “believe” or convert. We don’t destroy artifacts of history because they conflict with the Bible, as what’s happening today.
    Do you see Christians attacking Jews because they don’t eat pork? Do we give the Hindus grief? How bout Buddha? Have we set fire to China Town in Frisco?
    So DO TELL how that “religion of Peace” works for ya’. Do point out just what part of it is “peaceful”. Hell. They slaughter their own by the thousands.
    It fine to beat your wife, cut off your kid’s head if he/she shames the family. It’s just fine.
    You better understand them before you start to defend them.

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  32. Walt Avatar

    Which one are you “jon”? Ya’ hate the Jews that much?
    Did you do your homework? It’s time to turn it in.

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  33. George Rebane Avatar

    PaulE 1215pm – The Constitution is not a suicide pact. If your belief system – religion or ideology – demonstrably teaches “Death to America”, then we would be insane to march lock step with only the religious freedom provision that was written for people who believe in ‘Long live America!’ Again, Articles 3 and 6 need to be interpreted together.
    (No need to respond again to the Christianity equivalence proposition. Cf my 1047am.)

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  34. Walt Avatar

    This is what “jon” and Steve stick up for?
    http://edition.cnn.com/2015/09/24/asia/bangladesh-bloggers-islamist-hit-list/index.html
    You ever hear of a Christian group putting out a hit list on dissenting opinion?
    BTW I don’t want “devout” Muslims in positions of authority in the military. Maybe you guys have heard of the service men getting the boot because they “intervened” ,ON BASE ,in child molestation cases. ” We can’t intervene.. It’s their culture.” seems our own military must allow child molesters free run.

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  35. Paul Emery Avatar
    Paul Emery

    So George you don’t have to be of Middle Eastern descent to be a Muslim. In fact I have several friends who are devout Sufi’s (Muslims) that you can’t tell apart from your average Baptist. How do you propose we ferret out the Muslims when applying for what you consider a sensitive position as to protect ourselves by preventing them from being in a position to do harm, as you put it. I believe you are serious about this so you must have given some thought as to how to make it work.

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  36. Jon Avatar
    Jon

    “You ever hear of a Christian group putting out a hit list on dissenting opinion?” Walt
    Walt..um, yes. Most of these hate groups are Christian based.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_organizations_designated_by_the_Southern_Poverty_Law_Center_as_hate_groups#Anti-Muslim
    Just as ISIL and others are Muslim based. Same intent, same goals, different f-ed up brand of their supposed religion.

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  37. Jon Avatar
    Jon

    I particularly find the group- Aggressive Christianity- an interesting little meeting of some good ole’ country boys. Real nice young men.

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  38. Walt Avatar

    OH… sighting a hate group’s list? Your full of shi.. surprises.
    and using “Berkeley U” of the net no less.
    I will bet good money your on the “no fly” list. If not,, you should be.

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  39. George Rebane Avatar

    Paul 457pm – Yes Paul, that is a problem for a liberal society, especially an exceptionally liberal one like ours. Maintaining an open countenance against existential threats to its existence is not guaranteed to work. In times of crises Presidents Lincoln and Roosevelt suppressed liberties for Americans of certain descent and sentiment. In hindsight today we dun these decisions, but none of us were there to witness and sense the threat to our way of life.
    You mistake my own feelings about the fog of Islam for well thought out national policy about which I made no claims. While Sufis looking like Baptists may not pose a danger to Americans, devoted Wahhabis may be a very clear and present danger in certain public service slots. We may be and probably are totally vulnerable to such attacks unless/until America is again in extremis.
    I have great respect for Islam as a cosmology that can so effectively marshal the poor and ignorant, and Islamists as people who courageously put Allah’s word before their own earthly wellbeing. Please reread my previous responses to understand the scope of my sentiments.

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  40. Paul Emery Avatar
    Paul Emery

    George
    I have read your comments several times and I find it discouraging that you would require a religious screening on American citizens before they would be eligible for military service or certain domestic jobs or elected office.

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  41. Jon Avatar
    Jon

    Is this not reminiscent of the Know Nothings all over again Paul?

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  42. Jon Avatar
    Jon

    Walt, you should contact Aggressive Christianity on the link provided. Group is right up your alley.

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  43. Todd Juvinall Avatar
    Todd Juvinall

    Islam is a ideology not a religion. All semantics. No Muslim in charge of this Judaeo-Christian country.

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  44. Jon Avatar
    Jon

    Judeo-Christian country? Where is that mentioned in the Constitution?

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  45. Steven Frisch Avatar
    Steven Frisch

    Posted by: George Rebane | 24 September 2015 at 03:58 PM
    Well is the Constitution is not a suicide pact then we should overturn the 2nd amendment as while we are at it ๐Ÿ™‚

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  46. George Rebane Avatar

    Well, it looks like neither PaulE or StevenF want to have a serious discussion about this. So be it.

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  47. Steven Frisch Avatar
    Steven Frisch

    Posted by: George Rebane | 24 September 2015 at 09:23 PM
    I posted a totally serious comment George as my first post and you denigrated it. Why would I think you can have a serious discussion?
    I am pointing out a perfectly serious point; if the Constitution can be overridden to accommodate your fear of Islam it can be overridden to stop the 20,000 deaths a year from gun violence. I would argue a lot more Americans are killed by guns than Muslims.

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  48. Paul Emery Avatar
    Paul Emery

    George 9:23
    I take offense to that statement. I am just asking you how you would enact such a concept as to screen people’s religion before employment in certain areas. Pretty simple. Give me an idea how you would do it. George, you are ignoring the reality of what you propose. To say that an American citizen cannot serve in a combat role in the US military because it is perceived that he is a threat because of his religion makes a mockery of our Constitution. You really surprise me on this one.

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  49. Todd Juvinall Avatar
    Todd Juvinall

    We want those protecting ue to be real Americans. Pretty simple.

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  50. Paul Emery Avatar
    Paul Emery

    How do you screen people Todd to make that happen. Talk is cheap, the cost of action is colossal. What”real American’ test would serve that purpose.

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