187 responses to “Sandbox – 26jul15”

1. 

   Todd Juvinall

   27 July 2015

   Quiz for Frisch and “jon”. How many curb cuts done in America since 1992? Add them up then multiply times $5,000 and tell us what you come up with.

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2. 

   Todd Juvinall

   27 July 2015

   Here is a start for you in just one place. Manhattan
   http://newyorkinplainsight.blogspot.com/2010/04/how-many-street-corners-are-there-on_19.html

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3. 

   Bill Tozer

   27 July 2015

   It is so much easier when dealing with a blank canvas than trying to fit more pieces into an already completed jigsaw puzzle. Somewhere in my upbringing, the term “Central Planning” does not bring up warm and fuzzy connotations. Reminiscent of the old Soviet and Red China’s 5 year plans. Just don’t look behind the Iron or Bamboo Curtails.
   In a perfect world, all planning would be implemented on a blank canvas. All new, built to design from the ground up. No existing places exist. Built to perfection….just like they did when our cities were built. Then someone comes along with a new regulation or mandate or code or great idea (all with associated fees) and tells ya it’s all wrong. Change or shutter your doors. And the Central Planners are stunned when their “good improvement” ideas are meet with…gasp!…pushback? The Central Planners don’t like being told NO as well.

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4. 

   Joe Koyote

   27 July 2015

   George 9:33 The purpose of my post was to try and shed some light on why people use ad hominem attacks, nothing more, and in doing so I used a common example from these pages. One has to consider intention when assessing meaning. One has to ask, in this case, if the intention of the writer was to define a political ideology as you say or, as is sometimes the case, to discredit a writer with vague but obvious references to cold war western propaganda denouncing communism/collectivism. In the case of the latter, use of the term “collectivist” can conjure up all kinds of “evil commies” in some people’s minds and thus becomes a thinly veiled ad hominem attack. This, of course, has no bearing on young people who were yet to be born during the cold war and for whom such references have little meaning.
   “The great ideological polarization in our nation is between collectivism and classical liberalism.” Yes there is polarization, but that polarization seems more between the far right and much of the rest of the political spectrum as the climate change debate will attest. Your statement reflects a false dichotomy (a common propaganda ploy whether intentional or not) because there are many more ideologies (and shades of) than the two mentioned that have a stake in the outcome. Not all environmentally conscious people are “progressives”. Take the ski industry for example, corporate capitalists through and through, yet they have solidly positioned themselves in the “climate change is a man made problem that needs to be dealt with” camp. Obviously they have an economic stake in the issue, as does the oil industry in denying there is a problem.
   “you folks are trying to bamboozle the light thinkers instead of being straight with them.” Another thinly veiled ad hominem attack or guilt by association attack. No one wants to be “bamboozzled” and so the suggestion that those “folks” who disagree with your ideology are somehow trying to fool “light thinkers” (another ad hominem attack) generates a negative impression, which, of course, was the intent. If the purpose of your writings, as you claim, is to present information to the “undecideds in the middle” (as opposed to pandering to fellow travelers) then you are not going to get very far by insulting your target audience.
   “The only illogic involved here is when such tenets are connected to collectivist thought which collectivists in the west have wanted to deny since at least the Bolshevik Revolution.” Yet another rhetorical “guilt by association” presumably designed to discredit current progressive thought through the use of cold war rhetoric and reference to the Bolsheviks.
   “What you seem to miss is the reality that this contention today has grown into a national debate that approaches a schism.” I don’t miss it at all. What you miss is that the schism has been carefully constructed and nurtured by the corporatists to radically divide the country. Divide and conquer!

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5. 

   Joe Koyote

   27 July 2015

   Bill 9:35 — true.. just as the only person to believe a greedy racist nazi is another one.

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6. 

   Bill Tozer

   27 July 2015

   Oh Joe, not all of us nazi racists are greedy.

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7. 

   fish

   27 July 2015

   What you miss is that the schism has been carefully constructed and nurtured by the corporatists to radically divide the country. Divide and conquer!
   The man railing about divisive labels (commie, collectivist) certainly doesn’t hesitate to hurl his own (corporatist, reactionary, denialist….).
   Hey…..all in a good cause though!

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8. 

   Joe Koyote

   27 July 2015

   Bill 7:45 “Remember when Joe K refused to believe any article if it did not have his stamp of approval on the source.” Please explain how this is any different than the “liberal press’ argument or the hackneyed “Daily Kos” references in these pages. It cuts both ways Bill, which is my point. So in reality, very few of the posters are interested in anything more than propping up their own world view versus actually trying to logically make decisions based on truth.

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9. 

   Joe Koyote

   27 July 2015

   “If you are a lib or commie JoeK why not admit it. If you have a manifesto, print it for all to read.” case in point! game set match.

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10. 

    Jon

    27 July 2015

    Commie/pinko terminology and humor in terms of liberal minded Americans ended somewhere about 1973, after All in The Family had its run of parody on that theme. But yet Todd still frames his discussions that way. Bizarre.

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11. 

    Joe Koyote

    27 July 2015

    Fish– I didn’t use either term “reactionary or Denialist”, but to use George’s rationale, “corporatist” is a description of an ideology just like collectivist and progressive.
    Bill: and not all of us progressives are commies.

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12. 

    Bill Tozer

    27 July 2015

    Duh, Joe. We all do what we do to promote our side over the other side. Duh. And we are all hyprocites on every blog everywhere, be it hard left or ultimate hardest of hard right or tweeners. And shocking as it may appear to the newborns, we all do at times exactly what we mock the other side of doing at times. Point the index finger forward and you got 3 fingers pointing back.
    Sure, I ain’t going to read the George Soreass Daily News or whatever it is called. Contempt prior to investigation, the exact same thing I accused you of! But it is so much fun to mock, but not so much being mocked. “You are a bunch of cockroaches. No, you guys are the real cockroaches and jump in front of parked cars to claim attempted suicide. You’re stupid. No, you are stupid and a corporate pawn. No, you are a socialist pinko commie bastard, comrade.” That’s what goes on everyday everywhere, Joe. Duh!

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13. 

    fish

    27 July 2015

    Posted by: Joe Koyote | 27 July 2015 at 09:54 AM
    ……Fish– I didn’t use either term “reactionary or Denialist”
    No, actually you have!
    Not in your last post but in others. “Reactionary” during those posts when I was having a fabulous time excoriating progressivism. “Denialist” when discussing Global Warming/Climate Change/Lefty Weather Bingo .
    You really need to think further back then today JoKe.
    Maybe note taking would help.

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14. 

    Bill Tozer

    27 July 2015

    Now Fish, that is how to play nice. You done good. You even offered fellow pilgrim Koyote a helpful hint and without charge. You did it for free and caring. A positive exchange of knowledge from experience. Wisdom, if you will.. Now I got the warm fuzzies.
    Ok, back to hand clearing poison oak and thinning brush branches that want to argue with ya every step of the day. They don’t care that it is fire season. I can silence them, but never anyone of this site, thank heavens.

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15. 

    George Rebane

    27 July 2015

    JoeK 928am – I think that we will have to let our respective viewpoints stand. However, I am flattered that you seem to attribute the points clarified in my 933am to be at most sparsely held, and perhaps even unique to me. If so, then there is no reason to take you out of your comfort zone.
    To the interested reader – please note that collectivists of whatever stripe are always vexed when their ideology is correctly labeled. That is not the case with those who would consume collectivism minimally and with great care.

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16. 

    Bill Tozer

    27 July 2015

    You can argue facts, but not feelings. “Not all progressives are commies (yet)?” Say it ain’t so, Joe. Ah, in the spirit of coming together, I will just have to take your word for it. Not! 🙂

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17. 

    Todd Juvinall

    27 July 2015

    Fish and BillT have pigeon holed JoeK and “jon” and the other libs quite well. All hypocrites. Reading JoeK I was unaware he was so sensitive to “namecalling” and ad hominm attacks since he does it all the time. Who wooda thunk?
    Jon is really obsessed with me it appears. He goes out of his way to namecall and denigrate. Then whines when it is pointed out he/she is doing so. And these libs never answer our questions! Any wonder they have zero credibility here? They can’t even add.
    But I do get a kick out of lib stupidity. They have their own show on cable now. “World’s dumbest people”. Honest to goodness!

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18. 

    Steven Frisch

    27 July 2015

    Posted by: Todd Juvinall | 27 July 2015 at 09:03 AM
    You are such a TOTAL tool Todd. The questions is how many curb cuts done in America since 1992 MINUS how many curb replacements would have been done anyway.
    If you don’t understand that basic concept I don’t know how you tie your shoes in the morning.

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19. 

    Bill Tozer

    27 July 2015

    I cry foul! I’m telling Dr. Rebane on you, I am, I am. Unfair! He did it first.. Where is the social justice!
    Jon, you are a snitch, a stool pigeon, a rat. Bet you ran and got the nearest hall monitor if someone took cuts in the school lunch line. I am telling and you are going to be in big trouble.
    Don’t be so petty.
    https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=5NuofNHKbVc

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20. 

    Todd Juvinall

    27 July 2015

    Jon | 27 July 2015 at 02:06 PM
    Say what? You are a troll. No one knows who your or even if you are a male or female. Now you want to censor . Typical liberal.
    Answer my quiz.

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21. 

    Todd Juvinall

    27 July 2015

    Here you go BillT. “jon” the hall monitor. What a hoot!
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z_x3InL0DNc

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22. 

    Don Bessee

    27 July 2015

    The ‘jon’ 206 snivel neglects the fact that Todd mentioned because it is sooooo true. They never answer the questions. Like the frishcy claiming the number of ADA curbs minus what would have been repaired anyway. What BS, curb cuts are very expensive and involve more than the simple curb. Crubs have very long lives in normal use so that is again a spurious diversion from what they don’t want to talk about. Minimize, divert, attack the speaker and quibble on any number but never talk to the issue at hand is the lefty game you guys try to play.

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23. 

    George Rebane

    27 July 2015

    re StevenF’s 134pm – Mr Frisch is correct in attempting to frame the impact of curb cuts on jurisdictional budgets in terms of their marginal costs. To do that would require a bit more than just determining the ad hoc curb cuts and summing their costs. Many (most?) curb cuts included in regularly scheduled street/sidewalk improvements also have marginal costs involved. However, a good place to start is with the cost of the ad hoc curb cuts.

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24. 

    Walt

    27 July 2015

    Here is a good idea of where the fire is burning. Here is air attacks flight path.
    http://www.flightradar24.com/A210/6ef4f38
    The air tankers do show up as well, until they drop below radar.

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25. 

    Jon

    27 July 2015

    There is no way to get to HUNDREDS of billions of dollars in curb cuts on any estimated basis. Impossible. But we already knew the exaggeration is the name of the game here when ranting about govt. regulations.

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26. 

    Don Bessee

    27 July 2015

    Did ya love the Hillary Alzheimer’s moment today? Started lambasting the R’s for their all male candidate list, ooopsie! There are the same number of females in the R race as the D race! LOL Carly is hovering around 7th in two polls today so seems we shall see her in the debate. When is Hillary going to debate the other male socialists?

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27. 

    Walt

    27 July 2015

    Best fire map I have found yet.
    http://wildfiretoday.com/2015/07/25/california-lowell-fire-causing-evacuations-east-of-grass-valley/

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28. 

    Jon

    27 July 2015

    …or you just go to YubaNet, which is where everyone else goes to monitor the big fires, and the local ones. KVMR was incredible this weekend with their updates. Best local insight and practical advice on the fires that impact us.
    But those are Commie outlets, right Walt? LOL.

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29. 

    Todd Juvinall

    27 July 2015

    GeorgeR I posted a cost as derived from a city example of let contracts for a curb cut. They are an average of $5,000. So an intersection would have four. My Manhattan example had 12,000 intersections. I asked the libs here to simply multiply it out. They were unable to do so. (public schools?)
    Since 1992 curb cuts became a mandatory endeavor under ADA. So in 23 years I would think that adds up into a huge number.

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30. 

    Walt

    27 July 2015

    The NC Scooper has more credibility.

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31. 

    George Rebane

    27 July 2015

    ToddJ 447pm – to make a more powerful point here, I would dig up the data on national curb cuts. Multiplying intersections by four and citing Manhattan’s 12K intersections doesn’t take this too far. I would critique SteveF’s simplistic formula by noting that many jurisdictions, in order not to lose federal monies, diverted sidewalk/street maintenance monies to curb cuts, and simply deferred the budgeted maintenance without showing the transfer to ad hoc curb cuts. Such allocations are almost impossible to document, and thereby make the precise form of this argument moot.
    But we do know that the national marginal cost is easily in the billions of dollars. The reason such numbers don’t cause an outcry is that their impact is broadly distributed. This is the standard way that central planners get the country’s jurisdictions to do many things that they otherwise would not do – it is the usual progressives’ process of death by a thousand cuts. Remember there are legions of paid bureaucrats whose jobs are to monitor that jurisdictions carry out ridiculous laws, regulations, codes in order to keep their teeth tightly clamped on the federal tit.

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32. 

    Todd Juvinall

    27 July 2015

    GeorgeR, 5:23 PM. I totally agree with your points. My simple request to them was as an example. They cannot even do the rudimetary math in my quiz. Why? Becasue they will see the country has spent many many billions on curb cuts for the ADA compliance. I have no problem with helping the disabled and my omly point is the cost. But the liberal mind cannot even do basic math then extrapoltion apparently. Manhattan costs for their curb cuts would be 12,000 intersections times four times $5,000.All is asked them was to get the total as I did their work for them. Nothing. $24,000,000,000 is what I come up with for one 18 mile long island.

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33. 

    Walt

    27 July 2015

    If you MAY recall,, I mentioned something about some might bitch about BBQ smoke crossing property lines. Well guess what?!! It has just happened!!
    http://www.foxnews.com/leisure/2015/07/27/florida-residents-warned-by-county-environmentalist-to-keep-barbecue-smoke-in/?intcmp=hpbt4
    Give some county employee some power and watch out. Just how does an idiot like this even get hired? ( Never mind.. It’s LIBville)

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34. 

    Jon

    27 July 2015

    Todd, I lived in Manhattan for a few years and spent many years in that area. They had curb cuts way before curb cuts were mandatory. Many pedestrian cities saw the same thing.

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35. 

    Jon

    27 July 2015

    I’m sorry boys, but NYC did not spend 24 billion dollars on curb cuts. That’s an ignorant..actually insane..proposition.

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36. 

    Todd Juvinall

    27 July 2015

    Prove me wrong.

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37. 

    Don Bessee

    27 July 2015

    Oh, the ‘jon’ slinks in, what years in what borough was that? What year were they mandatory in the US and in NY? Enquiring minds want to know. LOL

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38. 

    Jon

    27 July 2015

    Dumb and Dumber, back to back. Good job boys.

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39. 

    fish

    28 July 2015

    Posted by: Joe Koyote | 27 July 2015 at 09:54 AM
    ……Fish– I didn’t use either term “reactionary or Denialist”
    I need to offer a retraction!
    Koyote…..according to the search function did not use either term.
    Frisch did by implication……and Ben chucked “Corporatist” at me in nearly every post for the better part of a calendar year.
    Apologies Joe!

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40. 

    Steven Frisch

    28 July 2015

    Posted by: Jon | 27 July 2015 at 08:06 PM
    Oh, wait, they must have spent $24 billion on curb cuts….Einstein did the math….at what point does credibility come into questions when people just spit stuff off the top of their vacant heads?

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41. 

    Steven Frisch

    28 July 2015

    Posted by: fish | 28 July 2015 at 07:00 AM
    Ha! I would proudly state that I consider many here both reactionary and climate denialists.
    No shame from me boys, you fit the bill.

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42. 

    fish

    28 July 2015

    Posted by: Steven Frisch | 28 July 2015 at 07:07 AM
    Steve….not everything is about you.

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43. 

    Steven Frisch

    28 July 2015

    Posted by: fish | 28 July 2015 at 07:09 AM
    You’re the one who brought me up Fish.

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44. 

    fish

    28 July 2015

    Posted by: Steven Frisch | 28 July 2015 at 07:16 AM
    You’re the one who brought me up Fish.
    Some context is in order. Yesterday I accused Joe of calling me “reactionary” and a “denialist”. When I said it I was sure that he had. Upon checking the term “reactionary” no results were returned that were associated with Joe. Checking “denialist” also produced no results that were associated with Joe. There were a couple of your shotgun blasts where everybody disagreeing with you on climate change is lumped together in a blanket accusation (that’s fine).
    I admit that I lose track sometimes who is saying what to/about whom. That’s what the retraction addresses.

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45. 

    Todd Juvinall

    28 July 2015

    As the reader can read for themselves, “Jon” and Steve Frisch now attack me and call Walt and I names for simply do some multiplication they would not do (or could not do). I gave them every chance to prove me wrong about “curb cuts” and they never did. Yet “Jon” claims to have lived in New York and claims some knowledge based on nothing. Frisch attacks the math! All of you people take note that when a lib/commie loses the debate they turn to namecalling and never answer the question. An Alinsky tactic right here in River City. What a hoot!

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46. 

    Michael R. Kesti

    28 July 2015

    Todd Juvinall 28Jul15 07:58 AM
    “…and call Walt and I names…”
    That would properly be “Walt and me.”
    Hint: try it without the first person reference and see whether it sounds correct. In this case, you wouldn’t say “…and call I names…” so you should not use “…and call Walt and I names…”

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47. 

    George Rebane

    28 July 2015

    MichaelK 831am – It’s a thankless job these days when they hear the same usage coming from the media and even the halls of Congress.

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48. 

    Steven Frisch

    28 July 2015

    Posted by: Todd Juvinall | 28 July 2015 at 07:58 AM
    O)once again Todd, you threw the number out, it is put o you to source it. Even George agrees this is a marginal cost calculation, something you seem to be unable to fathom. Thank God you are not doing our County budget anymore 🙂

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49. 

    Michael R. Kesti

    28 July 2015

    George Rebane 28Jul15 08:38 AM
    So true.
    I used to wonder whether many had earned high school diplomas but I now doubt that they have attended grammar school (pun intended, based on the US meaning of the term).
    I suppose that it is just as well that I seek no thanks!

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50. 

    Todd Juvinall

    28 July 2015

    Steve Frisch, you are soundly defeated on this yet are too lazy too back yp your position.

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