Sandbox – 28jun15

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Sandbox – 28jun15

28 June 2015

[This is the first post-comment rules sandbox. We await with bated breath … . gjr]

Posted in Comment Sandbox

185 responses to “Sandbox – 28jun15”

Gregory

29 June 2015

Paul, by design, nothing happens in Washington without broad support across the country. Right now,we have a federal nanny state beyond the dreams of the early Progressives and possibly well into their nightmares. Until Dems stop winning offices selling that olde tyme religion we don’t have much chance of breaking the logjam.

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Michael R. Kesti

29 June 2015

Gregory 29Jun15 08:48 PM
The Black Panther Party (BPP) also appeared on no ballot but there certainly was a BPP.
Or was your comment an attempt at humor?

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Gregory

30 June 2015

I also didn’t bother to mention the Donner Party.

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Bill Tozer

30 June 2015

Neither was the Wild Party given its fair due.

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Bill Tozer

30 June 2015

Is there a real Democrat on the Democrat Party ticket yet?
This is dedicated to all the enthusiastic 3rd Party Hope and Changers out there.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=XsYJyVEUaC4
No worries, soon it will be Judy’s time to cry. Don’t you guys ever tire of eating dust?

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Bill Tozer

30 June 2015

Paul, Ben, and others. Yes, Honest Abe was our first “Third Party President”, winning on the circumstance of the deeply splintered major parties and winning with less than half the popular vote. And, he did not get money and corruption out of politics/Government either. He had bigger things on his mind.
Since then, we have seen flashes of hope with various characters having their 15 minutes of fame from the Depression and post Depression Days. The 30’s were perhaps the best time for a populist party to take hold. Even the U.S. Communist Party was in its heyday at that time period.. But, no. Like Nader, the 3rd Party’s popularity have just been flashes in the pan. No spreading fire, no sticking power. No taking hold.
The flaw I see in Paul’s hope is plain ole sticking power. A new party may and will emerge in reaction to the current events of the time, but will they be able to have any staying power beyond a couple of election cycles? Will they be around after a few Super Bowl Sundays? Hmmmm? Do you really believe that any new party leadership will not find the same political hurdles and dwindling campaign coffers that need to be filled than the previous 20 Presidents? It takes more money than you think to hold on to power.
What was the name of Fidel’s Party? Something like the People’s Democratic Revolutionary Party I believe. Or is that the name of a political party in Greece or Italy or Bolivia or Sudan or North Korea, or…..well, at least some of those Peoples Revolutionary Democratic Parties had staying power. Just look at Iran. They sure showed the crooks the door and ended corruption by public servants in power seeking a little grease on their outstretched palms. Ya, righttttt. Human nature is a powerful force.

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Jon

30 June 2015

The Tea Party inspired candidates took a brutal beating in the 2014 midterms. The establishment had had just about enough of people disrupting their status quo. In Repub big money circles, you got to pay your dues in the inner circle. What makes anyone think the Tea Party is going to have more than a miniscule role in 2016?

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George Rebane

30 June 2015

BillT 1001am – Actually Mr Tozer, ol’ Abe did exactly the opposite. He hugely expanded federal power while at the same time dealing federalism such a blow that it has been on the decline ever since. Said decline has correlated perfectly with the growth of influence that moneyed interests have had in shaping government and government’s laws. We see that Mr Lincoln was the one who really gave Washington a shelf full of favors to sell, and the impetus to increase the size of the shelf and restock it regularly.
Administrivia – I invite your kind attention to the 30jun15 update to the latest Scattershots.

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Bill Tozer

30 June 2015

Yes, Dr. Rebane, Lincoln did institute the Get Out of The War Free Card if your daddy had enough Yankee Dollars to get Johnnie to come marching home. And the Tea Pot Dome Scandal was lurking just behind the headlines.
Rather than get off message with your distracting Lincoln did this or didnot do that, I, for one, will remain focused and disciplined and continue my thoughts on…drumroll please…..The Third Party, Curse or Cure, Meaningful or Mincemeat?
Dr Rebane, Dr Rebane, how I wish you would shut out the chatter and stay on topic. :). Maybe it’s time for your to leave your comfort zone and take a walk on the other side of the tipping point. Can’t hurt and may recharge your batteries:
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=0KaWSOlASWc

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George Rebane

30 June 2015

BillT 1034am – I am reminded that we are in the sandbox that welcomes the consumption of both free range chickens and free range topics. A parting note on the death spiral of federalism which started during ‘Mr Lincoln’s War’. It wasn’t just Yankee dollars that could substitute a Johnnie for a Jonathan in the gruesome business of war, it was the launch of the notorious military-industrial complex that began, has continued, and much expanded the dispensing of federal dollars across the country.
Don’t know how you define my “comfort zone” – didn’t even know I had one – but I have long made a strong case for going beyond the two-party into a multi-party system. Apparently these sentiments have had little staying power with readers, since they are regularly introduced as a new idea in these pages. Be that as it may.
So as not to rehash, my recommendation has always been that a 3rd and 4th party need to enter the fray concurrently. Say, the Libertarian and Green Parties would march their candidates hand-in-hand into an election, thereby drawing votes from both Repubs and Dems. Besides sending a message to the Republicrats, such an election may even result in the need for a coalition Congress. But as a minimum the resulting political plurality of the country would be more accurately exposed and communicated.

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Joe Koyote

30 June 2015

George 6/29 12:29 — ” Other than both cohorts use their available resources to attain their widely variant objectives, they share no other attributes.” – You get half of it.. The point I am making and the attribute activist billionaires and jihadists share is that both seek to instill their own belief systems on a larger population. Jihadists use the power of violence and billionaires use the power of their vast sums of money. The goals are both the same… to force their own attitudes, beliefs, and values onto others. Perhaps this drive has some psychological or psychiatric issue based on the need to justify one’s own actions and behaviors (ie. if everyone else believes like me, I must be on the moral high ground.) I would not want morality dictated to me by a billionaire any more than a radical muslim cleric.
Note: for those of you who are going to go off on comparing the social attitudes of a muslim country to America as in what regime would I rather live under or some other pointless line of attack.. STOP .. We all recognize our freedoms as they currently exist (NSA spying etc. excepted) are better than Saudi Arabia or Iran or most other countries on the planet. This discussion is not about what political or religious belief system is better or worse than another, but how individuals with large amounts of power use that power to influence others and to what end.

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Gregory

30 June 2015

George, the Libertarian Party pulled my vote from the Dems, and Eugene (Clean Gene) McCarthy was an early booster.of the LP with an early catchphrase being “low tax liberalism”.
It is, I suspect, the left’s reactionary stance against economic libertarian views that has led the LP to be painted as right wing. Paul E. saw through that, too.
In the end, the LP is anti-Federalist and pro-choice on everything, and historically, that is more Dem than GOP.

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George Rebane

30 June 2015

JoeK 1210pm – Don’t understand how your expansion contradicted (the half of) my 1229pm interpretation, because you just repeated it. The ONLY common denominator is that the groups you compare use their available resources to promote their belief systems. That’s not a very informative dissertation.
Gregory 1212pm – Libertarian? I recall that Clean Gene was an unabashed collectivist, and being honest about his ideology gave rise to his historical thumping at the polls.
When you maintain that “LP is anti-Federalist”, I take you to mean that they are anti-Leviathan and all that implies. But do we agree that the LP is still pro-federalism (lower case)?

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Gregory

30 June 2015

”
In 1980, dismayed by what he saw as the abject failure of the Jimmy Carter presidency (later he would say, “he was the worst we ever had” [22]), he appeared in a campaign ad for Libertarian candidate Ed Clark, and also wrote the introduction to Clark’s campaign book.[23] He eventually endorsed Ronald Reagan for the presidency.

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Gregory

30 June 2015

Clark’s running mate was David Koch

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Todd Juvinall

30 June 2015

I enjoy watching the British elections every five years. When the polls close, the candidates in each district for the House of Commons stands on a stage as a elections official shouts out the name of the party and their vote totals. If you like a myriad of parties, then you should really watch these elections.
So, what is the upshot of these elections that have twenty plus parties? The election in May was, GASP, the Tories (British Conservatives) were given a majority! Whoa! The Liberals lost all but a couple os seats and the Labour Party (democrats) were trounced. Just a really good view of what a multi-party election looks like. Yet, when all was said and done the voters of Great Britain settled on two parties! Paul Emery and JoeK, can you explain that please?
Regarding American elections. It appears to me the left will never accept anything about money until they own all the money.

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Gregory

30 June 2015

no Todd the Brits don’t settle for two parties. it’s about who can put together a coalition that is a majority of seats. If no one can a new election is held. bad idea.
our progressives don’t want to own your money todd, but they are sure they can do a more ethical job of spending it so quityerbitchin and cough some more up.

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Todd Juvinall

30 June 2015

Greg that was the previous election you are speaking of. The Tories and the Liberal Party were a coalition and Labour was out of power. This May the Tories got the majority so no need for a coalition.

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Joe Koyote

30 June 2015

George 12:34 — The common denominator, I see, is that such groups (any special interest group for that matter) usually have a core group of individuals who direct the policies and actions of said group. Whether those people are terrorists trying to take over a country and implement their world view on everyone else through violence or billionaires trying to take over a country and implement their world view through purchasing influence, the goal seems to be the same, the implementation of their particular world view on a larger population whether that population wants it or not. What I am trying to understand is why, for example, the Koch bros (yes I know they are Republicans Todd, but they are the glaring example of what I speak… and yes George Soros and other Democrats do the same thing) and their donor group would spend (by their own estimate) $800 million to influence the coming elections. That amount is more than both the official Republican and Democratic committees put together spent in 2012. Are they trying to buy something besides influence? What would motivate someone to blow that much money on politics? Is it an investment on which they expect to get a return? Is it narcissist delusions of grandeur? Is such behavior for better or worse for the affected populations?

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George Rebane

30 June 2015

JoeK 359pm – on the shared attribute of such groups, it sure looks like we’re in violent agreement.
Now about the money spent by the Kochs and Soroses. Their sums are a small fraction of what the candidates, special interest groups, PACs, etc will spend on the election. (Common wisdom now says that it takes about $1B to run a successful presidential campaign.) But in the end, can you not agree that both sides, rich and poor, see the other side winning as a disaster for the country, if not bordering on evil itself? For example, I would have contributed more both in 08 and 12 had I known the full measure of Team Obama.
And such, contributions are even more important to buy the media that is the only means to communicate with a gruberized electorate. I wish it were not so, and have spelled out here my druthers for a properly franchised electorate. But that’s another story we may want to revisit. ‘A nation ignorant and free, that never was and shall be.’ Thomas Jefferson.

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Gregory

30 June 2015

Koyote, how do you put a dollar amount on ‘volunteer’ big labor labor?
Then there’s the huge pile of money donated by just about every “local”. Looks like this time next year we’ll find out if SCOTUS rules that union dues are voluntary… that should be interesting. If they rule for that freedom I’d bet the CAGOP will begin to look less inept when the money evens out.

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Todd Juvinall

30 June 2015

Looks like Truckee got a “grant” of 8 million dollars to build “workfrce” housing. The country has lost its mind and spends taxpayers hard earned money for this crap. Amazing.

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Russ Steele

30 June 2015

Todd@09:00PM
Truckee’s “stack em and pack em” project will be a Sierra Slum in ten years after it is built and the town will be looking for grant to tear it down. All the built in greenhouse gas reduction and energy saving sustainability devices will be unable to keep up with the growing winter cold and people will not want to live in an icebox after working in the winter snow al day, they will want a warm cozy place to eat and sleep. This “stack em and pack em” palace will not be that place in the winter.

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Bill Tozer

30 June 2015

Oh Mr. Steele. Those stack em and pack-ems are like renting a room for the night at the ole Fleabag Hotel. It’s not for families. It’s for the immigrant worker/ski bums that love the slopes. They prefer the cold over warm and toasty any day. It’s like a college dorm building close to the chow line. Don’t think there is enough space to put a pellet stove in there anyway. Waste of time besides. They don’t fed the heat very well during those blizzard freezing winterstorms causing power outages. Maybe there will be enough room near the electric car charging station for a green backup generator. Ski bums ….er…..ski resort workers don’t need no fancy housing, on or off the clock. A spendid idea.

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Todd Juvinall

01 July 2015

So not only does this subsidize low wage workers, it subsidizes the Skiing businesses. And it is on the train tracks! Wow, this is a good example of a true waste of taxpayers money. And the article said it took 20 years! What a country.

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Steven Frisch

01 July 2015

Posted by: Todd Juvinall | 01 July 2015 at 07:10 AM
The community vision for redevelopment of the downtown was started 20 years ago, and it has been pretty successful.
Truckee enjoys amongst the highest commercial occupancy rates in the state.
New development has been leveraged in and around the downtown.
This project will ultimately create more than 200 residential units, 70% of them market rate, and include “Live/Work” housing to support a start up business community and an Industrial Heritage District to promote the arts and entertainment as an economic development driver.
Truckee median incomes are more than 20% higher than the rest of Nevada County. The average age in Truckee is more than 10 years younger than the rest of Nevada County. People who need housing who don’t want to live at the end of the road needs places to live as well.
The $8 million public investment in affordable housing represents less than 5% of the total cost of the project, and comes from funds that residents are already supporting state-wide, so this really represents a return of capital than left the community back to the community to leverage more than $100 million in private sector investment.
To Russ’s point that low income workers will be freezing in the winter, these units will be much more energy efficient than existing units, meaning low income workers will be paying much less as a proportion of their income for energy use. Under any calculation that is a net benefit, more money to spend on goods and services in other areas.
I really do think you guys need to spend a little more time at high altitude.

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Steven Frisch

01 July 2015

That should read “less than 5% of the cost of the full project.”

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Todd Juvinall

01 July 2015

Government subsidies don’t impress the people here. The railroad yard is a liberals favorite place to put the poor people. The other side of the tracks. Nothing new from you. What is so funny is his use of the word “eventually”.

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Steven Frisch

01 July 2015

I guess that would be true if 1) one did not consider the more than 75% of the project that is market rate, 2) one considered a couple who makes less than but up to about $80,000 per year poor, and 3) one did not know where I lived, the project is about 2000 yards from my house, on my side of the tracks, and if I could afford it I would move into it in a heartbeat.
But even more to the point, what would be wrong with providing housing for poor people? Do we want them to live in shacks in the woods?

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Jon

01 July 2015

Steve,
Great news on the efforts of the SBC and the town of Truckee. Some smart folks. Its clear the locals on this blog know nothing about what’s going on in downtown Truckee and nearby environs. Its pretty clear to visitors like me that the arts, entertainment and leisure industries there are driving a subset of hard working innovative entrepeneurs who spend their money back in town. So yes, almost all of these people creating the energy are young people with little money but who need affordable housing. There are a lot of highly educated, hard working, energetic young people there working low wage jobs who will eventually hook up with entrepeneurs with funding, and become entrepeneurs themselves. Every year Truckee seems to get more vibrant, so this project is perfect. As with virtually all growing towns and communities in America, the funding is a combination of grants, direct government subsidies and private capital. I love all the stuff going on there and at the North Shore as well. Of course your collaborative efforts to spark more in-town economic activity look funny to the eyes of aging retirees out in the woods who really don’t spend much time in downtown Truckee. Kudos.

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Todd Juvinall

01 July 2015

If one percent of a project is government money then 100% of the project must comply. It is a boondoggle, just like the “worm farm”. Russian high rises from 1960 housed those folks too. Built in ghettos paid for by tax money. Yep that’s a winner.

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Gregory

01 July 2015

Liberal Policies vs. Affordable Housing
The chronic shortage of inexpensive housing is really a blaring signal for government to get out of the way.
http://reason.com/archives/2015/03/23/liberal-policies-vs-affordable-housing
Show me a town that doesn’t have the inexpensive housing they need and I’ll show you a town that won’t let investors build it.

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Jon

01 July 2015

If there was ever a community where affordable housing is needed, its Truckee.
Believe it or not, I agree there are many communities in many states forced to build certain percentage of affordable housing- that don’t really have any demand for it, and where it is not effective or efficient use of space. Truckee, for all the reasons outlined, it definitely is needed. Developers aren’t going to do it on their own, so collaboration works.

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Todd Juvinall

01 July 2015

Gregory 11:27 AM. Totallly correct.
I suggest a person go see the mitigation costs imposed on one single family living unit, well, detached and attached, add the twenty years of holding costs for the property, add the development costs, planners, engineers, tentative and final map costs, the fees paid to schools, water and sewer districts and all the hearings in Truckee before they believe a word Frisch says. It is all over California. I was always amazed that a jurisdiction, here included, adds all those costs and no one builds affordable so the government then subsidizes their own mitigation fees (with lots of strings)! Cluster f*** thinking at its best. Now people pat themselves on the back for a project like that?

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Gregory

01 July 2015

Skyrocketing fees (mitigations or others) for new housing is very popular with existing homeowner/voters. Not only is it a perfect tax (on someone else) but it drives up the value of existing homes.

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Todd Juvinall

01 July 2015

I found it interesting that if you kid wants to build a house for himself in the town or county he grew up in, he had to “buy in” to his own town or county by paying those fees.

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George Rebane

01 July 2015

In the housing conversation it’s good to separate ‘affordable housing’ which is built to government specs and mandates, and usually with government subsidies, from ‘inexpensive or low cost housing’ which is a free enterprise affair driven by market forces. The above conversation can and has quickly become hard to follow if we don’t name the babies and then refer to them by their names. BTW, this barn has been circled before in these pages.
http://rebaneruminations.typepad.com/rebanes_ruminations/2010/03/when-again-we-grow.html

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Bill Tozer

01 July 2015

Steven Frisch @ 9:57am. Do we really want “them” to live in a shack in the woods?
Hell yes! That way we don’t have to look at them or ever see them while trying to enjoy a good latte. Oh, they can stand on the on ramp hitching their sorry arses out of town. Now that would be tolerable. The good people of Reno will buy them a one way bus ticket to Wichita Falls.
More than one landlord has told me horror stories about renting to low lifes in the Township of Truckee. After the tenants get cold and burn up their Salvation Army chairs and tables, they tear out the drywall and starting throwing the framing 2×4’s into the pot bellied stove. At least in a shack, they will do way less damage. Guess they were too lazy or stupid to gather wood in the summer. Probably complained it was too hot outside or too much effort.
Hey, I want a new car, but I can’t afford the payments. Hey, “those people” want to live in Truckee but can’t afford it either. Cry me a river. If you are gonna play, you are gonna pay. Don’t encourage “them” to live anywhere close to town. Put the responsible ones that pick up their own trash in the condos. Image that. Some of us pick up our own trash instead of leaving piles of garbage filled with plastic that kill our little birdies and fishies. They are animal haters and scum. Assholes they are. Don’t encourage them anymore than you already have, Steve. You are better than that. Rid Truckee with its young vibrant people of the undesirables.
Besides, the slopes are filled with migrant workers from anywhere but the USA and they are used to living out of youth hostels and crashing on the floor. Bathroom is down the hall is good enough and the small kitchens are probably bigger than the ones they grew up with in Europe. Yes, I want all the trash spewing poor walking around Beautiful Downtown Truckee to live in a shack in the woods. A shack so flimsy you can throw a rat through the wall. “Them” are not easy on the eyes, I tell ya.

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Joe Koyote

01 July 2015

Gregory 5:18 “Koyote, how do you put a dollar amount on ‘volunteer’ big labor labor?” The same way you put a dollar amount on the volunteers of the Tea Party, the chamber of Commerce, the Republican Women or any other organization with a political agenda.

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Joe Koyote

01 July 2015

George 4:37– “Now about the money spent by the Kochs and Soroses. Their sums are a small fraction of what the candidates, special interest groups, PACs, etc will spend on the election.” According to the federal elections commission website around $3b was spent by candidates and PACS put together during the 2014 election cycle. If the Koch donor group alone pledges $800m that would represent almost one fourth of the total 2014 expenditures. That is more than a small fraction. Approximately 32,000 donors (1/10 of 1%) donated over $1.18b of the $3b total. Have you seen different numbers?

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Joe Koyote

01 July 2015

Gregory 5:18 –Only a minuscule portion of the total campaign contributions came from labor. Most of the money came from corporations, trade organizations, and private membership PACS. Labor as a monied force in politics is a myth. Yes they have volunteers, but since union membership is at its lowest point in almost a century, they no longer have the clout they once had either in money or members. It is not the unions the country should be afraid of.
http://www.fec.gov/disclosure/pacSummary.do

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Scott Obermuller

01 July 2015

“Developers aren’t going to do it on their own, so collaboration works.”
I hold the gun to your head and you collaborate.
Works every time it’s tried.

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Scott Obermuller

01 July 2015

Here’s my fave of the week – pure BS from start to finish.
You can’t go wrong with lines like this:
“There are no costs associated with the program other than staff development for teachers working with imbedded students and space provided for the Winona State classrooms.”
That’s right, folks, there are no costs other than the costs.
You have to have a masters in BS to write this stuff.
No right wing vs left wing – just PC nonsense. Davis Krenz self identifies with the struggle, so he’s good.
http://www.postbulletin.com/news/local/austin-school-district-addresses-need-for-diverse-staff-with-initiative/article_adce3bb2-3f18-5f5f-8b75-0dbce470d7bb.html
Outright racism and lunacy – no wonder drug addled numb skulls shoot up churches. Nothing makes any sense and there is no ground to stand on.
Make it up as you go and it’s all good.

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Jon

01 July 2015

Scott, um, that would be RACIST white numbskulls influenced by racist white parents, shooting up people and burning black churches.
How many churches have burned now since Charleston? A certain subset of people don’t really like the fact their racist symbols are disappearing.

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Scott Obermuller

01 July 2015

As opposed to non white racists shooting folks dead and burning churches. Got it.
How long do you lefties want this to go on?
Do you want to stop the violence or just post stupidity?
It looks like the black vs white death rate is about 100 to one.
White lefties never seem to mind dead blacks. Unless they can stand on top of the bodies and blame some one, some how connected to an icon they don’t like.
The Stars and Bars are down. Everything’s groovy, right?
Hey – they took the TV show off the air! We’re good? Right?

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Jon

01 July 2015

Scott, please list the non-white racists inside American borders who have burned churches. Not talking about the Middle East. talking about the USA. If you find a couple, it will certainly not be 7 in one week and counting. But really, why so defensive about the white cracker, arsonist response to the loss of their southern “heritage symbols, their racist symbols? Its a damn good thing those symbols are being buried. Almost all of America agrees, except the rural white holdouts I guess.
Oh, and BTW, the high black-on-black crime rate in urban America is not racism, by definition. It is bleak, depressing, poverty, it is gun culture, it is lifestyle, it is lack of family unit, it is lack of love and support. Not racism.
Thanks.

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Scott Obermuller

02 July 2015

How in the world do you manage to twist everything I post, jon? Not being defensive, just pointing out what an empty pointless ‘solution’ the left has fixed on.
I couldn’t care less one way or another – I don’t have any confederate stuff and never planned to have any. Are you interested in preventing more violence, or do you just want to use tragedies like this to promote your own empty, failed ideas? You just want a ‘feel good’ win and stick it to the rednecks. And the rednecks get even more pissed off. And the violence on both sides keeps ramping up. You even admit the burned churches are a response to banning confederate symbols. What a great result that was!
Once again, you have ducked the main point of my post. There is ongoing, institutionalized, tax payer supported racism. This stuff fuels the sick minds of folks like Roof.
When do we shut down the Black Panthers and Louis F for advocating racial violence?
So be proud, jon. You get your ‘win’ and the carnage continues.

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George Rebane

02 July 2015

Jon 1134pm – By its very politically correct definition, ‘racism’ can only be practiced by Americans of European ancestry. What other ‘minorities’ do to themselves or anyone else is never identified as racism.
However, according to my view highlighting the relatively few killings of blacks by non-blacks, and then IGNORING the overwhelming number of blacks (and even whites) killed by blacks is indeed racism. Black lives do matter, no matter how they die. Liberal policies that have kept blacks on the virtual ‘plantation’ for 40 years are racist policies.

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Jon

02 July 2015

How can black and black killing be motivated by racism? That is what we are talking. Hate crime legislation deals with motivation based on racism. What you and Scott are referring to is neglect, ignorance of a major problem, national priorities askew. Its not political even- both major parties and leaders ignore the horrendous inner city, black on black, lifestyle crime spree. But why do you lump that into racism?

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Jon

02 July 2015

Scott, no one is “shutting down” the free hate speech of racist rednecks and others. People of good will however are shutting down and burying hateful symbols, such as the world did with swastikas and such. Southern Republican leaders are shutting down these symbols. People of all stripes and political persusisons are tired of it, tired of the abject hate coming from the rural south and similar parts. Anyone inciting violence, documented as such, should be watched carefully, including Louis F or Black Panthers. But really Scott, I have no problem pissing off rednecks if its based on their hateful behaviors that need to change.

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