Rebane's Ruminations
May 2015
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George Rebane

[This is the addended transcript of my regular KVMR commentary broadcast on 20 May 2015.]

Listeners of these commentaries may recall that I support redistribution of wealth.  This line drew gasps from the Nevada County Republican Central Committee when several years ago I dropped it into one of the talks I was invited to give.  But after explaining why such a program was necessary, most begrudgingly agreed that there was really no practical alternative given the rapidly growing need over the next 15-20 years.  The problem with such a proposal is that we have redistributed wealth for over forty years, and it is clear that the way we have been doing it hasnโ€™t worked.

Today we are spending about $1T of federal and state revenues annually on 126 separate federal anti-poverty programs in addition to myriads of similar state programs, many of them overlapping and all having little effect on reducing poverty or helping people out of poverty.  More than one out of three, or over 126 million, Americans receive benefits from such programs.  And of these we have 46M people, the highest number ever, receiving food stamps.  Over the last decades more than $20T has been spent to fight poverty, all with dismal results.

The money for this has come from working taxpayers and massive borrowing.  But therein lies the problem โ€“ of working age Americans, today fewer than two out of three people work or are looking for work.  And of those who found jobs during this anemic economic recovery, many are part time workers, and many more work in low paying service jobs and still need assistance.  Todayโ€™s government quoted 5.5% unemployment rate sends a fraudulent feel-good message.  The real jobless rate is still north of 10%, and unfortunately it will be rising in the coming years because of something we have discussed before called systemic unemployment (more here).

Accelerating automation and off-shoring continue to reduce Americaโ€™s jobs.  Ever smarter robots and computers are doing more human work at an alarming rate.  The result is that no matter how much we may plan to spend on education, for most unemployed Americans education will not help.  So what is the solution for people who simply have no ability to earn enough to support themselves?  Today the most often cited answer is a Guaranteed National Income or GNI.

Economists of all stripes have anticipated and recommended a GNI as the final solution to systemic unemployment.  From the Right we have agreement from greats like nobelists F.A. Hayek and Milton Freedman; from the Left economists Paul Samuelson and Kenneth Galbraith have weighed in on the need for some form of GNI.  Even prominent sociologists and political scientists like the conservative Charles Murray have stated the need for funding Americans who cannot work.

There have been many studies about implementing GNI that include universal grants, negative income tax, and direct wage supplements for those able to earn a part of their income.  But all these studies have raised more disturbing questions about the feasibility of any of these plans.  All detailed looks at putting in place an adequate GNI conclude that it will be very expensive, costing even more than the current dysfunctional welfare programs.

Responding to these findings, liberal promoters say that, all the unanswered questions about cost and work incentives aside, we should go ahead and try a new federal GNI just based on good intentions.  Conservatives counsel caution, and say that we should โ€œpursue incremental steps: consoliยฌdate existing welfare programs, move from in-kind to cash benefits, increase transparency, and gather addiยฌtional data.โ€  They also recommend that the states should fashion and manage their own GNI programs to serve as 'laboratories' trying different alternatives from which the best could be copied by others. (more here)

How will it shake out? – no one yet knows.  But itโ€™s safe to say that sooner or later we will wind up with a guaranteed national income that will either fiscally sink us, or give us time to figure out how humans will survive with super-intelligent machines that are smarter than we.

My name is Rebane, and I also expand on this and related themes on georgerebane.com where the transcript of this commentary is posted with relevant links, and where such issues are debated extensively.  However my views are not necessarily shared by KVMR.  Thank you for listening.

[Addendum]  Mercatus Center general director and economist Tyler Cowen (Average is Over, 2013) writes in the NYT (โ€˜Donโ€™t be so Sure the Economy Will Return to Normalโ€™) about his trepidations over the state of the nation, systemic unemployment, and fiscal recovery.  I have the privilege of knowing Dr Cowen for the last several years, and have had several private conversations with him about these items of great mutual interest.  He is one of the most knowledgeable and reasonable people I have met.  Please consider the need for and advent of the GNI in light of his thoughts about our future.

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102 responses to “Guaranteed National Income guaranteed”

  1. Gregory Avatar
    Gregory

    Patricia, what you’ve described, temporary assistance with federal employees in charge of determining eligibility and dribbling out largess when they deem appropriate, is the organizing principle of the welfare system we have.
    How’s that working?
    The negative income tax schemes reward work leaving more money in the pocket and doesn’t require an army of bureaucrats to administer. Here’s a nice overview
    http://www.city-journal.org/2011/21_1_income-tax.html

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  2. Gregory Avatar
    Gregory

    Regarding the inability of one average income to raise a family, buy a house, etc, the problem is spending at the federal, state and local levels. The more the state eats, the more the peasants must toil to feed Vaal.

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  3. fish Avatar
    fish

    …..the more the peasants must toil to feed Vaal.
    Bonus points for the obscurity of the reference!

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  4. George Boardman Avatar

    Re Patricia Smith’s 10:58 a.m.–I can remember those days, because my father was one of them. He supported a family of five, put his three kids through college, and lived out his retirement years in comfort and with dignity.
    Of course, he was a member for 50 years of the Operating Engineers Union, Local 3, where he benefited from excellent pay and benefits negotiated by the union. In those days, blue collar workers were smart enough to know the boss was not their best friend and that there was strength in union.

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  5. Michael R. Kesti Avatar
    Michael R. Kesti

    Patricia Smith 22May15 10:58 AM
    I, too, remember those days but I do not believe that manipulating the value of the labor market via legislation will return those times to us nor do I believe that it will, in the long run, help those it is intended to help.
    I do believe that the real problem is that the value of the US dollar has declined dramatically. This decline has been the result of many factors, most of them the result of poor fiscal responsibility by federal, state, and local governments. Since the Federal Reserve was created in 1913 the dollar has lost 96% of its value. Forcing employers to pay their employees more will only further contribute to that decline and ultimately serve only to make the problem worse.

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  6. George Rebane Avatar

    MichaelK 311pm – Well said Mr Kesti; I was going to respond to Patricia’s 1058am in a similar manner, but life got in the way. The only thing I want to add is that during those ‘golden years’ with single-wage earner families and stay-home moms, there were no government mandated wage controls. Employers paid workers on the basis of their productivity contributions, and workers using then current technology provided sufficient value added to actually earn market driven wages that maintained their QoL. Today, when looking across the aggregate workforce, that is no longer possible. And wage controls such as an artificially high mandated minimum wage will only make things worse.

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  7. Patricia Smith Avatar

    So I guess the answer is to create a slave labor class that works but need gov’t assistance to survive? How is that any different that getting a living wage?

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  8. Bill Tozer Avatar
    Bill Tozer

    Patricia, I just read the addendum to Dr. Rebane’s post “Don’t be so sure the economy….” Might make our nibbling on the edges a waste of time if the economy is going through a structural change, I.e., lower wages, lower standard of living, less buying starter houses, and of course The Singularly for the next 50 years. Be careful and thoughtful which trade/vocation you pick, but it may not last 15 years anyway.
    I do see a growing number of working poor that will be on government assistance as far and wide as the eye can see for the unskilled/untrained/low expectation worker.. Call it the new normal. The checks cut for assisting the working poor will be cradle to grave and only has the one way to go: expand and get bigger and bigger. That is the situation we are in now and how it is going to be for many many moons. Government can’t hire everybody, not even on the rez. As the tax base declines in its donations to the Tresury, and as we grow a larger percentage of the population receiving assistance from the Treasury, it’s going to be pretty darn expensive to get by, thus the vicious cycle.
    The answer is “to create a slave labor class that works but needs Gov’t assistance to survive?” We don’t need to create nothing. It had already been created. We are just noticing it now as something that is not temporary, nay, it’s the New Normal.

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  9. Gregory Avatar
    Gregory

    Patricia, it isn’t about creating a slave labor class, it’s about not spending $100,000+ per poor person per year to fight poverty by erecting a scaffolding that doesn’t penalize work, providing a smooth off ramp for those who are becoming more productive, and a smooth on ramp for those who fell on hard times. Fold in Social Security, unemployment. Disability. Fire hundreds of thousand of federal, state and local employees to find something better to do than playing Nanny to adults.

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  10. Patricia Smith Avatar

    Gregory, if we spent $100,000+ on each poor family, they wouldn’t be poor! We would rather give huge bailouts to corporations (that make welfare look like petty cash) than invest in our citizens. You seem to have missed my post where I said I don’t favor cradle to grave assistance. Give people in need the tools to get out of thier hole and everyone benefits.
    Your solution to fire hundreds of thousands of government employees would only add more people to the welfare roles.

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  11. Gregory Avatar
    Gregory

    Patricia, the whole point is the poor don’t get much of the money spent to alleviate poverty, and I can’t think of a better place for superfluous government functionaries than the unemployment line.

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  12. Gregory Avatar
    Gregory

    Here is Milton Friedman on Buckley’s Firing Line in 1968 talking about his negative income tax proposal
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xtpgkX588nM

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  13. Gregory Avatar
    Gregory

    This isn’t NIT or GNI, but here’s Milton Friedman running roughshod over a pencil necked kid named Michael Moore over economics of product safety design
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EYW5I96h-9w

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  14. Joe Koyote Avatar
    Joe Koyote

    Just who are those “superfluous government functionaries”? In all of the discussion of government over-regulation and waste, no one seems to define what is superfluous and what is necessary. Just what should government do and not do, what services should it provide or not provide, what protections for citizens should or should not be in place?

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  15. fish Avatar
    fish

    We would rather give huge bailouts to corporations (that make welfare look like petty cash) than invest in our citizens.
    Who is this “we” Patricia?

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  16. Scott Obermuller Avatar

    We already know the causes of poverty. It has nothing to do with how much money people have. You can give folks 50K cash a year to live on and they would still be poor. Some folks live rather well on much less.
    Since this nation wants to ‘fight’ poverty by throwing money at the problem, poverty will win.
    The Wright bros were successful because they understood the laws of nature and emulated the animals that could fly. As long as we ignore the causes of poverty and ignore the millions that have risen out of poverty on their own, there will always be poverty. But getting out of poverty on your own is the ‘wrong’ answer. The left wants to tell Orville and Wilbur to emulate pigs in order to fly.

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  17. A Avatar
    A

    Patricia, I thought I was clear, the superfluous government functionaries I was speaking of were all those involved in administering programs said to be alleviating poverty… it’s cheaper to write the poor a check.
    Regarding what the government should do and not do, the enumerated powers in the Constitution is a fine place to start… and finish.
    I completely agree regarding bailouts of too big to fail corporate bailouts, another role of the Feds that doesn’t seem to be in those enumerated powers. No company is too big to fail, and no state is too big to fail.

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  18. Patricia Smith Avatar

    Fish, the “we” is anyone who remains silent while the Feds fork over billions (if not trillions) of dollars to profit-making corporations (which includes wars fought to protect oil interests). I hear a lot of talk about “the gov’t” on these pages, but very little aimed against the corporations that, I believe, are the root cause of the gross income inequality in this country.
    You may argue that Unions are the cause of corporations leaving the US for offshore countries, but I believe it was the corporations greedy need for more and more profits. They have traded US consumers for the rest of the world market while they benefit from our tax dollars.

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  19. Michael R. Kesti Avatar
    Michael R. Kesti

    Patricia Smith 23May15 08:01 AM
    You demonstrate a problem that I often observed in liberals. You believe that government programs will have their intended effects and only those effects. In the case of spending $100,000+ on each poor family you fail to recognize that it wouldn’t be long before many people stopped working so that they would qualify as poor and be able to collect $100,000+.
    Joe Koyote 23May15 09:03 AM
    You remind me of my son who insists that my opinion that our government spends too much is not valid unless I produce exact figures concerning spending that should be cut. In both cases it is clear that there are problems regardless of whether anybody can provide detailed solutions.
    Scott Obermuller 23May15 09:11 AM
    Poverty has no causes as it is our natural state. It is wealth that has causes and those causes are work, self-reliance, and personal responsibility.

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  20. Gregory Avatar
    Gregory

    Scott, letting the poor starve isn’t going to fly and poverty has many faces.

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  21. fish Avatar
    fish

    Fish, the “we” is anyone who remains silent while the Feds fork over billions (if not trillions) of dollars to profit-making corporations (which includes wars fought to protect oil interests).
    Well Patricia the government is the primary entity deploying military forces overseas. Why wasn’t this severely curtailed when TEAM PROGRESSIVE held the Executive and Congress? Could have spent the first two years of the Bunny Administration setting the conditions for a wholesale departure from the middle east and the next executing the grand exodus.
    Further as you seem to have occupied the “Ben Emery Chair in Concern Trollery” I’m interested to know if you are as reticent as he was to let the “Too Big to Fail” banks and brokerage houses to fail?

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  22. Gregory Avatar
    Gregory

    Regarding Boardman’s waxings eloquent regarding the Operating Engineer’s union, the actual money that flowed into the pockets of equipment operators and their retirement funds was (and remains) taxes paid by everyone; there’s a reason public projects cost phenomenal amounts of money.
    There are reasons why a freeway costs something like 2 to 10 million dollars per lane per mile, depending on the state, and union scale and workrules are a big part of it.

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  23. Patricia Smith Avatar

    Fish, both parties have been bought off by big corporations so it doesn’t matter whether we have a Dem Or a Repub in office, big business gets what they want. I can’t begin to tell you how disillusioned I am with the lot of them. I tend to side with the Dems because I keeping hoping that they will walk heir talk. Still waiting.
    And no, I believe that if any bank is “too big to fail”, it is time to break that bank up into smaller units that are accountable for their performance – and if they fail, they close. Period. I think it was one of Obama’s biggest failures to not investigate the Wall Street banks. Instead of going to jail, they got bigger.

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  24. Gregory Avatar
    Gregory

    “You may argue that Unions are the cause of corporations leaving the US for offshore countries, but I believe it was the corporations greedy need for more and more profits.” -Patricia
    There were some baldfaced examples of this in Mitt Romney’s fund management, and the greedy corporations demanding higher profits sated in part by literally shipping jobs to Asia were the California public employee pension funds.

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  25. fish Avatar
    fish

    Fish, both parties have been bought off by big corporations so it doesn’t matter whether we have a Dem Or a Repub in office, big business gets what they want. I can’t begin to tell you how disillusioned I am with the lot of them. I tend to side with the Dems because I keeping hoping that they will walk heir talk. Still waiting.
    Then there is no point in complaining about it until the “Great Reset”!
    And no, I believe that if any bank is “too big to fail”, it is time to break that bank up into smaller units that are accountable for their performance – and if they fail, they close. Period. I think it was one of Obama’s biggest failures to not investigate the Wall Street banks. Instead of going to jail, they got bigger.
    Hat tip! While it’s not going to happen it’s still a better answer than your predecessors.

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  26. Patricia Smith Avatar

    Gregory, 10:41: sorry I do not get your point. Are you saying that CA Public Employees are the cause of moving jobs offshore? The pension fund has money invested in stocks of course, but if you polled the members, I believe they would vote NO to any company policy that takes jobs offshore. I get a pension from my days as a Costume Designer. I have no idea what companies our fund has invested with (and I shudder to think).

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  27. George Rebane Avatar

    PatriciaS 1057am – You don’t need to poll public service employees, just look at the voting records of CalPERS directors who sit on the boards of their invested corporations. They know which side their pension accounts are buttered on, and are the first to demand high profitability in their invested assets.

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  28. Douglas Keachie Avatar
    Douglas Keachie

    Let’;s look at Greg’s math.
    2015 – 70 = 1945
    And conveniently, for Greg’s case:
    Seventy years ago this week, on April 12, 1945, while he was sitting for a portrait in Warm Springs, Georgia, President Franklin D. Roosevelt spoke what were probably his last wordsโ€”โ€œI have a terrific headacheโ€โ€”and fainted. He died two hours later, of a cerebral hemorrhage.Apr 17, 2015
    If we start at 1952, instead, 63 years ago, yup more Republicans.
    In the grand scheme of things, the difference between the two time spans? Pfffff.

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  29. Douglas Keachie Avatar
    Douglas Keachie

    Work rules are often safety based, and derived from bad accidents in years past. There used to be a fireman in the cab of every locomotive. Had there been on a week or so ago, maybe that train would not have gone off the tracks, with loss of life?
    Go ahead, object to this.
    And then tell me why we still have co-pilots on aircraft? Another government regulation that surely could be done away with.

    Like

  30. Douglas Keachie Avatar
    Douglas Keachie

    Hey, we don’t have to spend $100,000 per poor person. For $50,000 each we can lock them up in private jails and make another no holds barred capitalist rich.
    I suspect that the looming and growing prison population is making the “let them eat cake” folks think twice, as you all seem to be doing here, finally. I’d say it is quite a change since I last dropped in with any frequency.
    Your next assignment is to figure out how to nicely keep the populace from breeding the country dry.

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  31. fish Avatar
    fish

    If we start at 1952, instead, 63 years ago, yup more Republicans.
    Sherman set the WayBack Machineโ„ข for Jan 2009. Looks like it’s all Obama!
    Work rules are often safety based, and derived from bad accidents in years past. There used to be a fireman in the cab of every locomotive. Had there been on a week or so ago, maybe that train would not have gone off the tracks, with loss of life?
    …and if the little nitwit in the cab had managed to stay off his phone…..or stay awake on the job…..or following your “spoons instead of shovels” logic had eight co-co-co-co-co-co-co-co engineers to help him do his one man job then maybe this wouldn’t have happened.
    Hey, we don’t have to spend $100,000 per poor person. For $50,000 each we can lock them up in private jails and make another no holds barred capitalist rich.
    Or we could make it an ice prison….with a door that’s only open for a brief period….and if your gun gets away from you you turn into a penquin (sic).
    Gee Doug you should drop by more often…you bring so much to these conversations.

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  32. Scott Obermuller Avatar

    I see this has devolved into the usual gibberish from the left. If you don’t agree with their opinions, then you must want people to starve.
    And of course, it’s those evil corps that cause all of the problems.
    “I get a pension from my days as a Costume Designer. I have no idea what companies our fund has invested with (and I shudder to think).”
    Ignorance is bliss – you could find out and then what would you do?
    Refuse the money?
    I’d love to know how many of the lefties here are mad at evil, greedy German, Japanese, etc, companies that ‘offshore’ their work here in the US? Are you boycotting those companies?
    How many lefties look for a better deal when buying something? Would you be OK if the govt took those choices away from you and mandated the price you pay for everything? Why shouldn’t an employer be able to have a choice when shopping for labor?
    And finally we have the best line of all from DK.
    “And then tell me why we still have co-pilots on aircraft? Another government regulation that surely could be done away with.”
    Well, gee – there’s a certain airplane that was just smeared all over the side of a mountain in Spain BECAUSE there was a co-pilot.

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  33. George Rebane Avatar

    DougK’s 1240pm is an excellent example of union thinking and argument, and therefore valuable in this thread on its own merits. Recall that trains used to have cabooses in which train crew slept and ate because the stretches their slow speed trains then covered. The most dangerous job, before the advent of hydraulic brakes, was that of the brakeman. He had to run on top of the moving train to set and release the brakes on each car as the train encountered different grades. His job became ‘redundant’ with the advent hydraulic brakes. Yet the unions kept cabooses and do-nothing brakemen on trains for decades (into the 1960s) after their work evaporated.

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  34. Don Bessee Avatar
    Don Bessee

    population from breeding the country dry!?!?!? The citizen population birth rate is not the cause of the crowding, its the unchecked illegal immigration that has flooded areas with too many demanding resources. ==== Re; Pattie Smiths admission that she is happy to not know what generates her retirement income. She inadvertently acknowledged that its peoples pension funds who own corporations and they should be able to have a voice to protect their financial interests just like the unions. They don’t like the citizens united ruling because it actually levels the playing field and that diminishes the impact of union money.

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  35. Bill Tozer Avatar
    Bill Tozer

    “We would rather give huge bailouts to corporations (that make welfare look like petty cash) than invest in our citizens.
    Who is this “we” Patricia?
    Posted by: fish | 23 May 2015 at 09:09 AM”
    Well, Mr. fish, that reminds me of the time The Lone Ranger was under attack by a host of hostile Indians. “Looks like we are surrounded now, Tonto” he exclaimed to his faithful friend. “What do you mean ‘we’, paleface?” Tonto retorted.

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  36. Gregory Avatar
    Gregory

    “Let’;s look at Greg’s math.
    2015 – 70 = 1945
    And conveniently, for Greg’s case…”
    That was Patricia’s choice of endpoints and accounting, Keach, not mine, and she had the math wrong… what was true at the beginning of Obama’s term isn’t anymore, but in any case the natural dividing line for Dem/GOP timelines starts with FDR as it’s his sacrosanct policies that was the manure for the current Federal megastate. Hell, we still have market orders, Fannie Mae (and her more modern clone, Freddie Mac), Social Security, FDIC, SEC, FHA. Even the TVA.
    The last four score years of the Federal Government had the Democratic Party dominating politics and policy. In short, the American people have been DP’d by the DP for a long time.

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  37. Patricia Smith Avatar

    Don B, 5:11pm. Where did I say that I was happy not knowing where my pension funds are invested? I said I shudder to think where they are invested.
    Scott, 2:13, Of course I accept my pension money. I worked really hard for 25 years to get that pension. I am entitled! The question is, do you refuse social security (because we know how much you hate those socalist government give-aways)?
    Gregory, 8:14. I just did a check on which party has held the Presidency longer since WWII – and guess what? It’s equal (if you factor in Obama until the end of his term.) Both parties have held the office for 36 years. I stand corrected.

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  38. Gregory Avatar
    Gregory

    What if you consider it wasn’t a world war after the Eyetalians and Germans gave up? So you sat down and used a pencil and paper? Good for you… except it’s still a pointless and misapplied standard. We don’t have a monarchy, and we don’t have a parliamentary system which, for all practical purposes, installs a Roi du jour as long as he keeps a majority. We have a divided system that resists change that does not have a President and both houses of Congress of a like mind. FDR had it, Obama had it long enough for Pelosi and Reid to get the ACA passed, LBJ had it. Clinton had it for 2 years but squandered it on HillaryCare (remember that?… at least Hillary’s “blind” trust made a bundle shorting pharma stocks).
    Reagan slowed it down but Tip O’Neil made sure it wasn’t by much. Bush the 1st thought he’d get bipartisanship credit for bargaining away his no new taxes pledged to his Democratic Speaker who promised spending cuts to match. That Speaker lied.
    Pat, you need to stop thinking of Presidents as Kings, we have a Republic for as long as we can keep it, and understand where the real power in Washington is the Speakership but it also is hindered by the Senate, the Presidency and a partisan press, as every Representative is running for reelection 24/7/52.

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  39. Patricia Smith Avatar

    Thanks for the civics lesson Greg. I don’t think Presidents are Kings, but I do hear a lot of bashing of Obama as if everything is his fault. I’m just saying there is plenty of blame to go around. As a Democrat (kinda), I am beyond disappointed in Obama’s job performance: for his bait and switch policy on majiruana, for taking single payer off the table before passing the ACA, for his support of the TPP – all which are contrary to the Democratic platform.

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  40. Bill Tozer Avatar
    Bill Tozer

    Oh, Patricia, Kings make up their own platforms based on what is best for the country and their legacy, in their opinion. Besides, every President likes to get a trade agreement under their belt. It’s the Presidential thang to do in the closing years of their days in The Oval Office.
    Let’s see how guarantying a humongous safety net and livable wage is doing across the Pond. Next side please.
    http://news.yahoo.com/greece-issues-fresh-warning-imf-payment-june-115223346.html

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  41. Scott Obermuller Avatar

    So Patricia suspects (but is too cowardly to find out) that her pension money is dirty with investments that aren’t PC. But. It’s her’s. She worked hard for it. Hmmm. Sounds like an old right wing crank to me.
    Do I take SS? Of course. It’s not a give away for me. I had no choice.
    And I only get back part of what they took from me. Had I been able to invest that money myself, I’d have a lot more. As you say yourself, Patricia, it’s my money – I worked hard for it.

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  42. Gregory Avatar
    Gregory

    No, everything isn’t President Obama’s fault, but he gets well deserved derision to making everything worse.
    So we’re treated with the spectacle of ‘the most transparent administration in history’ being the most opaque, the gang that can’t shoot straight.
    But at least we’re now post racial, right? The Arab street loves us now? The economy booming after trillions were created out of thin air and injected into the economy via all those Obama supporters on Wall Street.
    Let’s just hope the GOP isn’t stupid enough to nominate a 1 term senator with no governing experience to head the presidential ticket, or a successful doctor who has never been elected to anything, or a former CEO who has never been elected to anything who took one of the great tech companies of the 20th century and turned them into a nondescript marketer of Chinese laptop computers.
    Oh, and lets hope the GOP doesn’t let Democrats choose the moderators of GOP candidate debates. Give the Stephanopolouses and Crowleys a pass. Let Brian Willams handle the Dems ๐Ÿ™‚

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  43. Patricia Smith Avatar

    Scott, 6:03. Presuming you live long enough, you will get back more from SS than you paid into it. I’m confused why SS it’s not a “give away” for you (but is presumably for the rest of us)? My SS conributions averaged about $500 a week when I was working full time as a Cosume Designer. I think I paid my fair share (on 100% of my income while rich folks don’t pay a dime after they reach the cap on taxed income).
    You say you have no choice in the matter. Neither do I with my pension funds. Since I am on four Executive Boards at the moment (I just resigned from one other), I simply do not have the time to take on my Union about where our funds are invested. Trust me, I always weigh in come Board elections for all the good it does. Since stocks are traded on a regular basis, it would be a full time job keeping up with each investment. Maybe a lame excuse, but that is my reality. (Besides, where would I find the time to converse with you good people!)

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  44. George Rebane Avatar

    Muslim world reacts to Obama’s latest speech – IPhoneConservative

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  45. Todd Juvinall Avatar
    Todd Juvinall

    Patricia Smith, SS has had a return of around 2% at best over the life of the program. If the powers that be had invested in something else, diversified etc, then a person over their lifetime would have made a huge return on their SS account.

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  46. Todd Juvinall Avatar
    Todd Juvinall

    That video is from where George? It is amazing!

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  47. fish Avatar
    fish

    Posted by: Todd Juvinall | 25 May 2015 at 11:27 AM
    “My eight year old daughter has bigger biceps than he does………”
    Epic!!

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  48. Todd Juvinall Avatar
    Todd Juvinall

    LOL!!

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  49. Patricia Smith Avatar

    Todd, I understand that SS returns are low (as is interest on savings accounts). The point is the funds are safe. After the Wall Street melt down wiped out the investments of many senior citizens, SS was all they had left. Wall Street can’t be trusted and since they have already squeezed all the money out of most other sectors (housing being the latest victim), they need new blood to suck. If it were truly a level playing field, I would be all for investing our funds, but not as the system is currently run.

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  50. George Rebane Avatar

    PatriciaS 127pm – What exactly do you mean that “Wall Street can’t be trusted”? Are you condemning the entire securities market sector of our economy, or did you have something more specific in mind?

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