Rebane's Ruminations
May 2015
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George Rebane

[This is the addended transcript of my regular KVMR commentary broadcast on 20 May 2015.]

Listeners of these commentaries may recall that I support redistribution of wealth.  This line drew gasps from the Nevada County Republican Central Committee when several years ago I dropped it into one of the talks I was invited to give.  But after explaining why such a program was necessary, most begrudgingly agreed that there was really no practical alternative given the rapidly growing need over the next 15-20 years.  The problem with such a proposal is that we have redistributed wealth for over forty years, and it is clear that the way we have been doing it hasn’t worked.

Today we are spending about $1T of federal and state revenues annually on 126 separate federal anti-poverty programs in addition to myriads of similar state programs, many of them overlapping and all having little effect on reducing poverty or helping people out of poverty.  More than one out of three, or over 126 million, Americans receive benefits from such programs.  And of these we have 46M people, the highest number ever, receiving food stamps.  Over the last decades more than $20T has been spent to fight poverty, all with dismal results.

The money for this has come from working taxpayers and massive borrowing.  But therein lies the problem – of working age Americans, today fewer than two out of three people work or are looking for work.  And of those who found jobs during this anemic economic recovery, many are part time workers, and many more work in low paying service jobs and still need assistance.  Today’s government quoted 5.5% unemployment rate sends a fraudulent feel-good message.  The real jobless rate is still north of 10%, and unfortunately it will be rising in the coming years because of something we have discussed before called systemic unemployment (more here).

Accelerating automation and off-shoring continue to reduce America’s jobs.  Ever smarter robots and computers are doing more human work at an alarming rate.  The result is that no matter how much we may plan to spend on education, for most unemployed Americans education will not help.  So what is the solution for people who simply have no ability to earn enough to support themselves?  Today the most often cited answer is a Guaranteed National Income or GNI.

Economists of all stripes have anticipated and recommended a GNI as the final solution to systemic unemployment.  From the Right we have agreement from greats like nobelists F.A. Hayek and Milton Freedman; from the Left economists Paul Samuelson and Kenneth Galbraith have weighed in on the need for some form of GNI.  Even prominent sociologists and political scientists like the conservative Charles Murray have stated the need for funding Americans who cannot work.

There have been many studies about implementing GNI that include universal grants, negative income tax, and direct wage supplements for those able to earn a part of their income.  But all these studies have raised more disturbing questions about the feasibility of any of these plans.  All detailed looks at putting in place an adequate GNI conclude that it will be very expensive, costing even more than the current dysfunctional welfare programs.

Responding to these findings, liberal promoters say that, all the unanswered questions about cost and work incentives aside, we should go ahead and try a new federal GNI just based on good intentions.  Conservatives counsel caution, and say that we should “pursue incremental steps: consoli¬date existing welfare programs, move from in-kind to cash benefits, increase transparency, and gather addi¬tional data.”  They also recommend that the states should fashion and manage their own GNI programs to serve as 'laboratories' trying different alternatives from which the best could be copied by others. (more here)

How will it shake out? – no one yet knows.  But it’s safe to say that sooner or later we will wind up with a guaranteed national income that will either fiscally sink us, or give us time to figure out how humans will survive with super-intelligent machines that are smarter than we.

My name is Rebane, and I also expand on this and related themes on georgerebane.com where the transcript of this commentary is posted with relevant links, and where such issues are debated extensively.  However my views are not necessarily shared by KVMR.  Thank you for listening.

[Addendum]  Mercatus Center general director and economist Tyler Cowen (Average is Over, 2013) writes in the NYT (‘Don’t be so Sure the Economy Will Return to Normal’) about his trepidations over the state of the nation, systemic unemployment, and fiscal recovery.  I have the privilege of knowing Dr Cowen for the last several years, and have had several private conversations with him about these items of great mutual interest.  He is one of the most knowledgeable and reasonable people I have met.  Please consider the need for and advent of the GNI in light of his thoughts about our future.

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102 responses to “Guaranteed National Income guaranteed”

  1. Russ Steele Avatar

    George,
    I find Tyler Cowen’s tranformation on the issue of systemic unemployment fascinating. He seemed to resist the thought of systematic unemployment when you first proposed the idea three or four years ago, but now he seems to be more open minded and accepting of the possibility. RR rocks!

    Like

  2. Scott Obermuller Avatar

    You are so correct about the problem. We have in this once fine country a huge and growing number of non-producing eaters. And both major political parties seem hell bent on importing millions more.
    What to do?
    I strongly suspect one solution is already being formulated. The fed govt has been acquiring ungodly amounts of small arms ammo. Much, much, more than is needed for practice or even a major war. Also see the purges in the ranks of warriors, patriots and Christians. And the push for allowing illegals to serve. There is also an on-going trend of domestic maneuvers where in our troops are trained for urban warfare and crowd control.
    There is also the Popular Democratic Front consisting of various flavors of leftist populists from Sanders through de Blasio to Ms Clinton. All have championed the idea of ‘re-building the middle class’ by (apparently) shutting off trade with other countries and creating monopolies in the labor pool to which the evil cigar smoking b******s that own the industries will be forced to bow. Tens of millions of lunch pail swinging, bib overall wearing guys (and gals) will saunter into the re-opened factories earning ‘a living wage’ and unlimited benies with free healthcare and everything.
    ‘Cept it won’t happen, but hey, a Dem has got to dream (and hope), don’t they? Well, get elected at best and we can always blame Bush.
    I’m sure George has a great plan in mind when he says we must have wealth re-distribution, but we have always had that, no?
    I call it the free market. I have money and I want something. You have what I want and we freely determine a price (value) we both agree on at the moment. Done and done. It worked for centuries. There are problems, though. Most of the time the person with money wants effort or work from the person he or she is paying. In our brave, new century, this is frowned upon. A wage is to be guaranteed! But sadly, output is not.
    I’m expected to pay, but for what?
    The Italians have an excellent gesture for that part of the equation.
    Sorry, but put me down for not getting real exicted about our brave new world.

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  3. Jon Avatar
    Jon

    Wow Scott, purging of warriors, patriots and Christians? All at the same time no less.

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  4. Scott Obermuller Avatar

    Hey Jon – try reading the news.
    BTW, do you have anything intelligent to add?

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  5. Michael R. Kesti Avatar
    Michael R. Kesti

    I’m no economics guru but I cannot imagine a GNI program that doesn’t lead to actual poverty for all. One need not be an economics guru to see that it certainly won’t lead to wealth for all.

    Like

  6. Gregory Avatar
    Gregory

    Kesti, try reading what Friedman had to say about it. The magic is that, unlike how Welfare is structured, working isn’t penalized. The guaranteed income is above poverty but less than middle class, and unlike welfare, AFDC, unemployment, etc… if you actually make $1000 you keep a chunk of it, maybe in a lump, maybe the IRS smooths it out, work more, more money goes into your pocket and you’re not tossed out of the system only to really hit bottom if that job goes away and you have to again wait weeks to get back on. It’s just an add on to the income tax, where if your income goes below a certain level, money flows out. In fact, Negative Income Tax was a past name for it.
    The vast majority of current social welfare spending is by the swarms of government employees that administer it. Get rid of them.
    The handicapped might be allowed to keep more of what they earn. Social Security could be folded in fairly.
    The funny thing is that both George McGovern and Richard Nixon were taken with Friedman’s proposal, and Congress started working on it during the Nixon years, but IIRC the Tricky One gave it a well deserved coup de grace when Congress insisted on grafting the guaranteed income on top of the bloated welfare bureaucracy, which is insanity. Big Dick had his faults but his idiocies didn’t include fiscal policy.
    It’s a shame the old Department of Health, Education and Welfare got split up… I remember Uncle Milty sharing the amazing factoid in Free to Choose (the book and the PBS series) that the HEW was the third largest budget in the world, exceeded only by the budget of the entire USA and the entire Soviet Union. That’s big.

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  7. Jon Avatar
    Jon

    Scott,
    What does a purging of warriors mean? If you mean sending fewer young troops into chaotic conflicts without clear mandates or objectives- I say purge, purge, purge. And keep purging. Rand Paul would agree.

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  8. Scott Obermuller Avatar

    Jon – that’s not what I’m talking about. You are apparently unaware of what has been going on with various developements in the military over the last several years. It has nothing what ever to do with whether or not our military engages in conflicts or not. Those are political decisions made by the administration and (supposedly)congress. I also think that you and I have very different ideas of what a warrior is.
    This is getting off the topic – which is how to deal with a large and growing number of non-producers.
    That is not to say all of them don’t want to work, but since as a nation we seem to want govt control of the economy, whatever labor many of them can provide is simply no longer viable for the employers.

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  9. Jon Avatar
    Jon

    Sorry to drag you back to the warrior thing, but please elaborate on what you refer to. If you’re talking about the horrific treatment afforded our vets when they return home from their hellish experiences in the Middle East- that’s something Bernie Sanders is prioritizing in his campaign.

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  10. Russ Steele Avatar

    Maybe George can start a new Sand Box with the question: “What is a military warrior” and we can all discuss.

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  11. Jon Avatar
    Jon

    Russ, good idea but I also think I get the gist of what he’s talking about- letting warriors be warriors, without constraints. That is definitely a topic with a legitimate variety of views.

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  12. Patricia Smith Avatar

    So all of our financial woes are the fault of liberals in government? That seems to be the stock answer to any problem mentioned on this blog, real or imagined. I know Wall Street and corporations (wealth creators) are held in high esteem on these pages, but they are as much (or more) to blame than the government for income inequity.
    I wonder why there is no discussion of TPP and the ramifications it will have on the sovereignty of our country? There are abundant examples of the tyranny corporations can exert on sovereign nations, like the Calgary mining company that sued Costa Rica after their high court deemed the permitting process was tainted that allowed the company to operate an open-pit gold mine.
    http://globalnews.ca/news/883756/calgary-based-mining-company-suing-costa-rica-for-more-than-1-billion/.

    Like

  13. Jon Avatar
    Jon

    Another topic worthy of discussion…and I don’t really see it addressed here, is the burgeoning movement for an effective $15 minimum wage in cities around the country. The LA City Council has ignited a significant movement toward this standard.

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  14. Todd Juvinall Avatar
    Todd Juvinall

    You will find no love for Wall Street banks on these pages so you are wrong right out of the block Patricia. Besides, they are mostly democrats anyway along with the theft of Main Street’s hard work and money.
    Regarding TPP. I am a free trader but of course we must not allow any “treaty” to infringe on our Constitution. Free trade is a real plus if the left would simply stay out of the “break rooms” and businesses in general.
    Liberals have wrecked the country over the last fifty years and we are all seeing the affects in business and our daily lives. All those millions of laws and rules have stymied America into a neutered country.

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  15. fish Avatar
    fish

    I wonder why there is no discussion of TPP and the ramifications it will have on the sovereignty of our country? There are abundant examples of the tyranny corporations can exert on sovereign nations, like the Calgary mining company that sued Costa Rica after their high court deemed the permitting process was tainted that allowed the company to operate an open-pit gold mine.
    There’s been a great deal of discussion about the TPP Patricia. From Paul and Ben who are openly against it…to George, Russ, Todd et al. who seem to in opposition but are taking a more ambivalent position until the details are revealed before the vote the matter.
    Personally I think it will pass….a monstrously all encompassing government wouldn’t have it any other way.

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  16. Todd Juvinall Avatar
    Todd Juvinall

    Scott, Obama’s definition of a “warrior” is one who fights against “global warming”! He gave that in a speech to I think the Coast Guard grads? Anyway, maybe “Jon” could go be a general for that malady. He could become a warrior! What a hoot!

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  17. fish Avatar
    fish

    Posted by: Jon | 21 May 2015 at 10:45 AM
    I can’t wait to see all the shocked faces when all those entry level jobs disappear…….“who could have seen this coming????”

    Like

  18. Brad C. Avatar
    Brad C.

    The State amphibian – don’t tread on me, lick me, or otherwise abuse me!
    http://tolweb.org/Rana_draytonii/50431
    …jarp (just another random post)

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  19. Brad C. Avatar
    Brad C.

    A new, groovy-cool, state bureaucracy!
    http://cafarmtofork.com/

    Like

  20. Jon Avatar
    Jon

    fish, yes will have to wait and see. Not naïve enough to believe that raising the rate so dramatically will not have various impacts pro and con. Fascinating to see what private industry does here.

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  21. fish Avatar
    fish

    Posted by: Jon | 21 May 2015 at 11:04 AM
    Not fascinating at all. Every job that can be automated will be automated.
    Any employment opportunities provided to the various Johns, Juans, and Johnquavious’s in LA will be provided by government.

    Like

  22. George Rebane Avatar

    Jon 1045am – Discussing the new wave of $15/hr minimum wages is very appropriate in this comment stream. Any wages imposed by government gun is a form of wealth redistribution, and can be viewed as the moral equivalent of a form of GNI. The problems are legion that high minimum wages cause for the young and the poor. However, their studied effects are suppressed by the Left who claim that such wage increase does not affect hiring or the number of jobs. If that is so, why then set the bar so low?
    Let us have a means tested minimum wage that raises the income of every household to above the poverty level, or better yet, to the median income level. Why should any family be consigned to the lower half of the nation’s income for putting in their full measure of annual labor. So if you wanted to hire a man who has a wife and two kids, then you must pay him $50,500/2080 = $24.28/hr. If we are to be a progressive society, let us not satisfy ourselves with half measures.

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  23. Todd Juvinall Avatar
    Todd Juvinall

    Hey we should support $100 dollars an hour for flippers and tell the libs to best that!

    Like

  24. Scott Obermuller Avatar

    “So all of our financial woes are the fault of liberals in government?”
    No – but in view of the topic at hand, most of the problem lies at the feet of govt. As soon as the govt decides it can insert itself between the buyer and seller, it becomes increasingly responsible for the problems of our economy. The govt has not and will never have enough information about the value of each transaction of goods and labor to be able to accurately assign value to those transactions.
    The govt also fails us because we like to elect glad-handing smiling liars or idiots into positions of power who can not (or will not) be honest about the future. Folks like Sanders and de Blasio have not one clue about how they will ‘rebuild’ America’s middle class.
    Most Rs won’t be straight with us about the fact that the world is not going to need the kind of labor we had in the past.

    Like

  25. Patricia Smith Avatar

    All of the regulations you all hate were written by corporate lobbyists. They buy enough votes from both sides to get what they want. Then government is blamed for “passing regulations.” A pox on both their houses!
    BTW, we have had a Republican President most of time since WW!!. They have the power of the veto so don’t blame everything wrong on the Libs/Dems. Government has grown regardless of who is in office. Dividing us into camps is the goal. As long as we keep firing at each other, they are free to do their dirty business.

    Like

  26. Gregory Avatar
    Gregory

    Patricia, during that time the real power to tax and spend, the House Speakership, was in Democratic hands, so when LBJ was pushing the Great Society, it got done. From the time I was filling my diapers until Gingrich, the Speakership was exclusively Dem, and it only took 4 years of the Pelosi Speakership (with Reid running the Senate and Obama ready to sign) to restructure healthcare in Pelosi’s image.
    We don’t have kings in the USA, presidents don’t have the option of waving their pen and making it different.

    Like

  27. Gregory Avatar
    Gregory

    Regarding the veto power, when a GOP president vetoes an ominbus spending bill, they get lousy press and forced into a deal they can’t refuse… like agreeing to a spending increase now with a promise from Congress that they’ll pass spending cuts later that doesn’t happen. And when a GOP Speaker presents legislation that doesn’t give a Democratic president the spending authority they want, who gets the blame for shutting down the government?
    No, the lion’s share of the blame for the current state of affairs is the Democratic Party rule of the past and present. I think Wm.F.Buckley had it right… Democrats are socialists, and Republicans are reluctant socialists. It’s a shame that outside of Bernie S., no one in the Congress wants to use the S word. It’s just a word, and we should get over the Cold War implications that it’s somehow unpatriotic. Social Security is socialism with an American Face. So is Medicare.

    Like

  28. fish Avatar
    fish

    Dividing us into camps is the goal.
    If we agreed on everything politics would be unnecessary. We divide quite nicely without any nefarious corporate influences.

    Like

  29. Scott Obermuller Avatar

    “All of the regulations you all hate were written by corporate lobbyists.”
    Really – so you know all of the regulations I hate?
    The minimum wage? Raising the minimum wage? Dang – then B Sanders is just a paid lacky of coporate interests. Who knew?
    “Then government is blamed for “passing regulations.””
    Well – since the govt enacted them and is enforcing them, I just kinda thought maybe the govt might have had something to do with it.
    “A pox on both their houses!”
    Well – duh. When have I said anything to the contrary? I don’t care who it is that acts on the notion that the govt needs to be involved in setting prices and running private businesses and making private businesses act as tax collectors and wealth re-distributors.

    Like

  30. Scott Obermuller Avatar

    “…and we should get over the Cold War implications that it’s somehow unpatriotic.”
    Considering the fact that SS and Medicare are ponzi schemes, I always just considered socialism to be stupid.

    Like

  31. Gregory Avatar
    Gregory

    “BTW, we have had a Republican President most of time since WW!!. They have the power of the veto so don’t blame everything wrong on the Libs/Dems.” -Patricia
    Nope. Just did a fresh check and while that was true at the end of Bush II’s presidency, now there’s been Dems in the presidency for more of the past 70 years than there has been Republican presidents, and if you make the arbitrary start the Great Depression /The New Deal and the closest thing to a king this country has ever had, FDR, it’s fairly lopsided Dem.

    Like

  32. Gregory Avatar
    Gregory

    Scott, patriotic and stupid are not mutually exclusive, and there’s enough stupid on all sides to blur the lines. Until you run out of other people’s money, socialism looks pretty good to the average joe who is typically not stupid but is too busy with life to figure out who’s telling the truth most of the time.

    Like

  33. Paul Emery Avatar
    Paul Emery

    Well Gregory it’s primarily the Repubs that are supporting the TPP. Pretty ironic that Obama is their best buddy on this one. Shows where the real power is. No great ideological differences.
    ““It was a nice victory,” Mr. McConnell said with relief after the vote.”

    Like

  34. Bonnie McGuire Avatar

    We hear about the terrible Corporate lobby being the cause of so many problems, but the most powerful lobbies are the labor unions within our government of, by and for itself. And regarding those corporations….I remember (gov and corporate financed ) activists causing small independent businesses to go out of business, or incorporating to stay in business.

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  35. fish Avatar
    fish

    Shows where the real power is.
    …and that would be?

    Like

  36. Paul Emery Avatar
    Paul Emery

    Fish
    \
    Let me give you a clue Fish. Who stands to gain the most by the passage of the TPP? TAke you time and think deep.
    Bonnie, I don’t disagree with you that Unions are self serving and have lots of pull but in this case (TPP) they are losing out.

    Like

  37. fish Avatar
    fish

    Let me give you a clue Fish. Who stands to gain the most by the passage of the TPP?
    I’m not going to play “Mr. Pauls Question Time” with you. If you want to say “Itz the Corporayshuns” just say it.

    Like

  38. Todd Juvinall Avatar
    Todd Juvinall

    Fish, wink wink, no one has released the “secret” details I am told so it would be a WAG in any case. If the details are out, maybe we could get a link?
    Bonnie, you are correct. However as some people who will remain unnamed have told us from their position in the middle of the road, why can’t we be bi-partisan? Now it appears Obama, who vetoed the XL pipeline (and loved for it by the unnamed persons), you know, the one the unions and republicans wanted, is a naughty boy for doing it again with the free trade bill. Gosh we just can’t win can we?

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  39. Todd Juvinall Avatar
    Todd Juvinall

    Did the bigboy, err “Jon” take a nap? LOL!

    Like

  40. fish Avatar
    fish

    Posted by: Todd Juvinall | 21 May 2015 at 04:36 PM
    Manners Todd…..if it is jeffy I want the “Jon” personality, not the “jeffy” personality. 😉

    Like

  41. Scott Obermuller Avatar

    “patriotic and stupid are not mutually exclusive..”
    True that. Just my 2 pennies. I think the main reason most folks are against socialism is because it doesn’t work. I could be against running out onto the freeway because it would cause a scene. That fact that it would probably kill me seems to be the reason to focus on.

    Like

  42. Bill Tozer Avatar
    Bill Tozer

    In a bit of a hurry, so I will let others speak for me:
    “How do you tell a Communist? Well, it’s someone who reads Marx and Lenin. And how do you tell an anti-Communist? It’s someone who understands Marx and Lenin.”
    ― Ronald Reagan
    Now visual aides for those who read the white on the page instead of the black:
    https://www.facebook.com/PatriotPost/photos/pb.51560645913.-2207520000.1432257439./10152926607570914/?type=1&theater

    Like

  43. Jon Avatar
    Jon

    Scott, the happiest people in the world approach society most closely aligned with a blend of capitalism and socialism- Norwegians, Swedes, Danes. For the majority of those happy societies- whatever you call it- it works for them.

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  44. Scott Obermuller Avatar

    What happened to Patricia? I hope she isn’t shattered to find out B Sanders is a tool of the wealthy capitalists.
    I really do find this GNI to be a fascinating concept. It’s crap. But it seems to be the end game for those who have to manage the hordes.
    Just print paper money and give it to them to take to Wally World and make sure they have a working 3-D visual-sim world to occupy their waking hours. Keep them in Sector R and monitor their movements. Tell them they need to emit no more than 2 pounds of carbon a month to keep the world from spinning out into interstellar orbit.
    If I’m ‘guaranteed’ to make a certain salary, where is the motivation to improve or hustle?
    It’s one thing to guarantee at one end for a quid pro quo, expecting an output or production of a guarantee in kind at the other end.
    But to tell a human being that you are ‘guaranteed’ a certain amount of physical goods or value in kind just for their existance and that the actual production of those goods will be mandated at gun point on others who are more motivated or harder working just doesn’t make sense. As long as you reward slack and penalize work, just what in hell do you expect to get as a result?

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  45. Scott Obermuller Avatar

    “the happiest people in the world”
    B and S! No one asked me. Where is your metric? I’m tired of hearing this horse urine. I notice there aren’t boats of starving cretins wending their way to the North Sea.

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  46. fish Avatar
    fish

    Posted by: Jon | 21 May 2015 at 08:32 PM
    Actually “jon” it is surmised that those people are the happiest…were the happiest….because they were Norwegians, Swedes, Danes. The economic drag imposed by socialistic/capitalistic blend was tolerated because they were in essence an extended tribe and there are things you do for family that generally aren’t done for non-family.

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  47. Don Bessee Avatar
    Don Bessee

    News to sock puppet, the north sea oil boom had a significant impact on the region taking it from the highest suicide rate and bestowing all that nasty dirty oil money on them for the fun stuff. The over immigration issue is taking the fun out of it now with Scandinavian cities become rape capitols much like England is experiencing from muslim immigrant populations.

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  48. Gregory Avatar
    Gregory

    What Sweden, Norway and Denmark mostly have are their home countries filled with Swedes, Norwegians and Danes. They also don’t have suicide rates that are significantly different than those in the US.
    I have met a lot of Swedes and Danes who moved to California and stayed because they were a lot happier here than they were in the old country.

    Like

  49. Patricia Smith Avatar

    Does anyone remember when a family could exist on a one wage earner income? Middle class families were able to take vacations, send their kids to college, and pay off their home mortgage. It’s not unreasonable to demand that most jobs pay a living wage. (I’m not talking fast food service workers.) If you can’t even pay your rent from your salary, what is the point of working? Naturally people will sink to the bottom in that scenario.
    I am somewhee in between the libs and the conservatives on social programs. I believe it is essential to give a helping hand to raise people up, but I don’t believe in enabling them forever. To me, it makes more sense to give people a lot more money and the tools to educate themselves for a short period of time so they can get a decent paying job than to hand out bare minimum subsidies forever. Give a man a fish, feed him for a day. Teach a man to fish, feed him forever.

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  50. Patricia Smith Avatar

    On a totally unrelated topic, did anyone notice that the Senate has voted to let the VA recommend medical marijuana for Vets? MMJ has been very effectice at treating PTSD – even when conventional drugs fail to help. It’s a sad fact that 22 Vets take their own life every day. If you support the military, you have to support this.

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