Rebane's Ruminations
April 2015
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George Rebane

The State of Jefferson movement was started over a year ago to offer northern Californians and the citizens of its thinly populated rural counties an alternative to being ignored by the social engineers, central planners, and bureaucrats in Sacramento.  The cry from these people has been ignored for over a generation, and working within ‘the system’ of a state dedicated to serving the populous coastal urban areas which have totally different interests and goals has not worked, and shows no signs of working in the future.  If anything, the urban voters have sent more legislators to Sacramento to double down on the regulations and strictures they have already imposed on the rural north.


When the SoJ movement started, our collectivist neighbors could not contain their mirth at the foolishness of those of us who supported such a separation and creation of the 51st state (full disclosure, I was on the leadership committee of Nevada County’s SoJ contingent).  They pointed out what in their minds was the total infeasibility of creating such a jurisdiction – its finances would not work out, its economy would be in permanent shambles, and its citizens would become the nation’s poorest of the poor.

The problem with all those dismissive critiques is that they assume that SoJ would come to be and then dwell in a cocoon of eternal stasis – an environment where commerce, industry, resource harvesting and management, education, relationships, money flows, and ongoing government intrusion would remain as it is now.  Nothing could be further from the truth.

But the development I draw your attention to today is the sudden formation of a new ‘non partisan’ PAC called ‘Keep it California’ (KiC).  Something seems to have happened during these past months that has given pause to the smug voices of confident collectivists and nay-sayers, they are beginning to see the never-to-be-admitted possibility that SoJ may actually come to pass.  And even if it does not, then the growing debate surrounding SoJ, and other similar movements in states with unrepresented populations, would draw unwanted attention to the nation’s progress toward a command society that has adopted but not acknowledged the goals and objectives of Agenda21.  In the case of northern California, SoJ's growth and development must be stopped, and the region must be retained as a repository of natural resources inhabited by a docile and compliant shrinking population of the politically powerless.

The 17apr15 Union reports that KiC is now in a frenzy to quickly establish their chapters in all the counties where SoJ is active.  Their stated aim is “to monitor and respond to any incursions by Jefferson proponents.”  (emphasis mine)  They will begin these activities at the upcoming 12may15 Board of Supervisors meeting at the Rood Center during which the NC SoJ committee will be allowed one hour to present the merits of forming the new state.  KiC will be there to counter SoJ during the Q&A and public input segments of the gathering.

It is interesting that KiC also claims to support more representation and a louder voice in Sacramento for northern California, but they have not told us what things they would say with such louder voice.  In this regard they have presented nothing other than the intention to continue doing the same ol’ same ol’.  The only thing new about KiC is that it is the Left's belated and somewhat embarrassing recognition that SoJ is a real, visible, and dangerous movement which should be quashed in its cradle lest it change socialism's course in California and thus infect the rest of the nation.

Yes, the SoJ movement is putatively also non-partisan, but you have to be pretty dim not to understand that the overwhelming number of SoJ supporters are of the conservetarian bent, and that those now speaking for KiC are liberals.  And this is as it should be to explain the ideological foundations of both efforts.  One side is for ever larger government and control, and the other side is for smaller, less intrusive government and more individual liberties.

This is confirmed by SoJ opponents who base their arguments on the Left’s well-established notion of stasis.  They do not believe that a new state with a reinvigorated approach to constitutional governance can do better, or can recover from our country’s increasing pace toward socialism.  However, historically such sclerotic thinking is not and has never been in the American mindset.  In this most exceptional country the world has ever seen, the new and never-been-tried has always served as a beacon to innovation and a better life.

[19apr15 update]  We are fortunate in this post to have the enthusiastic participation of Mr Steven Frisch who joins his fellow liberals in opposition to the SoJ movement while contending that in California all is well.  In fact, according to Mr Frisch, under the load of the nation’s most strict and encumbering environmental regulations that burden us, he sees their impact as having provided a “wildly successful” environment in which these regulations have become “huge drivers of economic development and benefit in California.”  Mr Frisch’s participation in this debate provides considerable value to the reader along several avenues, all revelatory of today’s progressive mindset and methods.

For those new to these pages, Steven Frisch is one of this region’s leading liberal intellectuals who daily labors in the vineyards of collective thought as a career apologist for the Left’s consolidation of their overwhelming influence and power in the Golden State.  For the lightly read, Mr Frisch operates under the perfectly camouflaged canopy of a grant-fed NGO fortuitously (cynically?) named the Sierra Business Council.  As its CEO and public voice Mr Fisch promotes the progressive agenda both in the local councils of electeds and in our public forums.  He and his SBC minions busy themselves in assembling programs and delivering lectures to explain to our commissions and governing jurisdictions how best to comply with and enjoy the glories of policies and regulations pouring forth from Sacramento and Washington, and how higher taxes serve to benefit one and all.

With this background we may examine the course of the debate in the comment stream below.  And true to form, Mr Frisch does not recognize the economic disaster that has befallen California since 2007.  Here he rejects all reports and attendant evidence of what the nation and the world now recognize as the Great California Exodus.  For him and his, large corporations have not moved their plants and offices to greener climes.  And such enterprises have not chosen to locate their growth in other states.  There is no stream of productive Californians going to live elsewhere, to be replaced by the indigents and illegals making the state home for a third of the nation’s welfare recipients.  With more than one eighth of America’s economy, California’s fall in the Great Recession was deeper than that suffered by the nation overall, all due to its stifling regulatory environment and perversely skewed tax structure.  And for the same reasons the state has been a drag on the country, contributing to its tepid recovery.  However, Mr Frisch sees none of this, nor does he recognize the data, analyses, and reports that have made such crippled economic performance known worldwide.

Instead, the astute reader will recognize Mr Frisch presenting data that he considers to not only counter all that, but instead prove that California's economy is wildly successful.  To do that he dredges up analyses of gasoline prices in the state, and the number of increased jobs, and other figures to invite into the weeds the unsuspecting reader who may not recognize the irrelevancy of his specifics, and the presentation of baseless statistics (the raw numbers mean nothing, it’s the base-relative ratios that tell the tale).

The Left, as illustrated by Mr Frisch, does not want to look at the aggregates that impact and illustrate California’s dire straits within the nationwide context.  Our public schools’ performance, our relative GDP growth, our population dynamics and growth, rate of business formations, unemployment rate, … .   To the state’s progressive contingent all is well, all is well.

Finally, it is in recognition of all these truths that an organized, formidable, and well-funded opposition is now necessary in the form of a new PAC named ‘Keep it California’.  It is because we live in two different Californias, where we observe and experience two different realities, that the SoJ movement is not only alive and well, but has become the clear and present danger to achieving the larger objective to make California into the Potemkin posterchild of progressive governance and socialist success.

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259 responses to “Suddenly SoJ has become real (updated 19apr15)”

  1. Walt Avatar

    Good luck finding one dime that came my way from any government agency.
    But NOPE,, Don’t EVER recall doing any work on a gov. project that paid prevailing wadge.
    But it’s laughable for an OPMer to point fingers at others. ( that would be Other People’s Money) BTW How is that ” free rent” hunt going? Any suckers? What’s the new ponzy scam since the worm farm went tits up? Installing solar panels in mine tunnels?
    BTW,, Seems your China connections didn’t buy your sales pitch. They are pumping more CO2 than ever. ( then it blows here on the jet steam.) Yup I recall you bragging about your trip or two to Commie land… On someone else’s dime no less.

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  2. Walt Avatar

    What’s up Steevy? the handout revenue not what it used to be? I hear the sounds of desperation from your yapping.
    I would be fearful too if I was in your position, especially if the SoJ took hold.
    The OPM tit would dry up fast.
    Your kind of like “O”.. Never made an honest dollar in one’s life. ( it’s easier to sucker that buck from someone else.. That IS the Liberal way)

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  3. fish Avatar
    fish

    Posted by: Steven Frisch | 19 April 2015 at 01:51 PM
    So you are all (except Fish and perhaps Bill?) queens!

    Oh no, you can include me on this list as well. 15 years ago I would have been making very similar arguments to those you are now. I’ve seen just how wasteful government is first hand.
    If I lose my job and the position is done away with it will be one grain of sand in the right direction.
    By the way Fish by your logic I have a right to critique a military veterans life style choices because they are getting veterans benefits. Can I critique people’s lifestyles who are on social security? If so I think George needs to buy a Prius instead of a Jeep.
    I’m not seeing how you made this leap of logic Steve? Whether the SBC is funded with taxpayer dollars or not is a legitimate political discussion. If you choose to blow your wages on hookers and blow after the fact isn’t a line that I’ve crossed.

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  4. Gregory Avatar
    Gregory

    So many bigoted defamations, so little time.
    Just picking a few Frischian blathers:
    “Who is George or Greg or anyone else to say that what I work on is not important?”
    The SBC was hired to facilitate NH2020 community meetings long ago. The people of the county were not expecting the SBC to drive them to predetermined conclusions. Somebody lied and I suspect the SBC was in on it. No, having the state borrow money from China so there’s money for grants for the SBC to help herd the sheeple isn’t what I want my taxes burned for.
    “No problem George, except, some do actually deny climate change, like Greg, and some deny the anthropogenic contribution to climate change”
    It may be an artifact of your trivial arts education, but you either don’t understand, choose to ignore what I actually write or prefer to lie about it. I neither “deny” climate change, nor do I “deny” anthropogenic contributions. In fact, had I been included in the Doran & Zimmerman survey, I’d have been counted as one of the “97%” that agreed that temps had risen in the last century and that a significant amount was anthropogenic, but that’s using the scientific definition of “significant” not what the “oh god, we’re all going to die” trivial arts crowd prefer.
    “Walt, I am wondering if you have that critique of my motivations, would not the same motivation be present in scientists who fund their work through conservative think tank and produce reports denying climate change?”
    I named a number of scientists in my first response to your multiple unprovoked ad homs, 18 April 2015 at 04:01 PM. Name one what is producing ‘denialist’ research because your designated bogymen are paying them. That’s more true of the alarmist scientists (including Santer) who produce what the NSF is willing to fund and they have a history of only funding scientists who produce the desired alarmist papers. As James Lovelock put it, “So why on earth are the politicians spending a fortune of our money when we can least afford it on doing things to prevent events 50 years from now? They’ve employed scientists to tell them what they want to hear.”
    “I ain’t buying your “I am from Harvey Mudd so I know better” schtick.”
    That never happened; you’re confusing ad homs from a delusional retired teacher with a limited attention span who invented that out of whole cloth as he thought a sociology major with access to Wikipedia matched actual rigorous study of math and science. It isn’t about where I studied that gives me more gravitas about matters of science than you, it’s what I studied. Math, physics, chemistry, engineering… of those, Steve, what did you take besides “college algebra” and “Your friend, the Amoeba”, on your way to a trivial arts degree in PoliSci at Cal State ‘Frisco?

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  5. Russ Steele Avatar

    From the Instapundit: FROM CALIFORNIA DREAMIN’ TO CALIFORNIA NIGHTMARE: Joel Kotkin over at Daily Beast has a great piece explaining how California’s drought crisis illustrates the State’s devolution into a feudalistic society dominated by an oligarchy of super-rich liberals who’ve handcuffed the State’s ability to grow and prosper:
    But ultimately the responsibility for California’s future lies with our political leadership, who need to develop the kind of typically bold approaches past generations have embraced. One step would be building new storage capacity, which Governor Jerry Brown, after opposing it for years, has begun to admit is necessary. Desalinization, widely used in the even more arid Middle East, notably Israel, has been blocked by environmental interests but could tap a virtually unlimited supply of the wet stuff, and lies close to the state’s most densely populated areas. Essentially the state could build enough desalinization facilities, and the energy plants to run them, for less money than Brown wants to spend on his high-speed choo-choo to nowhere. This piece of infrastructure is so irrelevant to the state’s needs that even many progressives, such as Mother Jones’ Kevin Drum, consider it a “ridiculous” waste of money.
    And there needs to be, at least for the short term, an end to dumping water into San Francisco Bay for the purpose of restoring a long-gone salmon run, or to the Delta, in order to save a bait-fish, the Delta smelt, which may already be close to extinct. This dumping of water has continued even as the state has faced a potentially crippling water shortage; nothing is too good for our fish, or to salve the hyper-heated consciousness of the environmental illuminati.

    Kotkin concludes:
    What we are witnessing the breakdown of a once-expansive, open society into one dominated by a small group of plutocrats, largely in Silicon Valley, with an “amen” crew among the low-information donors of Hollywood, the public unions, the green lobby, and wealthy real estate developers favored by Brown’s pro-density policies. This coalition backs Brown and helps maintain the state’s essentially one-party system. No one is more adamant about reducing people’s carbon footprint than the jet set of Silicon Valley or the state’s planning elite, even if they choose not to live in a manner that they instruct all others.
    Yep–pretty much sums up the progressives’ approach to problems: Political correctness+ignorance+crony capitalism= preferred “solution.”
    I highly recommend everyone read the whole thing. As you may recall, Kotkin was the featured speaker at the ERC Second Annual Economic Summit. I have been a fan of Kotkin’s insight for years.
    http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2015/04/19/big-idea-california-is-so-over.html

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  6. Steven Frisch Avatar
    Steven Frisch

    What is always amazing to me is how much you all think you know versus how little you actually know:
    “having the state borrow money from China so there’s money for grants for the SBC to help herd the sheeple isn’t what I want my taxes burned for.”
    No money for SBC in the NH2020 process came from the state, the funding to pay for SBC’s role came from private funders, we brought it to the county.
    “..were not expecting the SBC to drive them to predetermined conclusions.”
    All decisions about content and process were made by the county. SBC did not have the authority to make these decisions.
    “…grants for the SBC to help herd the sheeple isn’t what I want my taxes burned for.”
    None of your money was used or SBC.
    “…agreed that temps had risen in the last century and that a significant amount was anthropogenic,” Yet you are on record hear claiming that AGW stopped in 1997.
    “….Name one what is producing ‘denialist’ research because your designated bogymen are paying them.” Well I guess right off the bat Willie Soon, Judith Curry and Richard Lindzen, two of whom you said you would choose to argue the case above would come to mind.
    “…That never happened;” That happens all the time, you regularly denigrate other people ability to understand or their standing to comment on climate science on this blog.

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  7. Steven Frisch Avatar
    Steven Frisch

    “Math, physics, chemistry, engineering… of those, Steve, what did you take besides “college algebra” and “Your friend, the Amoeba”, on your way to a trivial arts degree in PoliSci at Cal State ‘Frisco?”
    See, there you go again, Gregie. On another thread on this blog people take Jeff Pelline to task for acting like he knows better about things because he is a college graduate, or has a formal education, or thinks he is ‘smarter’. They call that ‘elitism” and are offended by it. They claim that a person who spends their entire adult life reading, learning, searching out wise people and challenging ideas can be self educated, and that the learning of a life can be more valuable.
    Yet you somehow get a pass from your peers here when you regularly try to demean people for not having a formal education in what you like to say are the ‘hard’ sciences, which are inherently more valuable in your mind then even any other science. You are the ultimate ‘elitist’ and you sit in the midst of people who do not challenge that, who let you pass because they often agree with your opinion, which tells me quite bit about both your confidence in what you think you know and the value of your opinion.

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  8. Gregory Avatar
    Gregory

    “No money for SBC in the NH2020 process came from the state, the funding to pay for SBC’s role came from private funders, we brought it to the county.”
    If they got tax breaks for spending it on NH2020, that’s close enough, but my intent was regarding most of SBC’s “business”.
    “All decisions about content and process were made by the county. SBC did not have the authority to make these decisions.”
    If that’s an admission the County was lying to the people of the County about NH2020, and SBC was just following orders of the folks giving them the money (Izzy Martin et al) please, do tell us more.
    “Yet you are on record hear [sic] claiming that AGW stopped in 1997”
    I’m sorry this is so difficult for you to follow, but the perhaps 1.0 to 1.5 degrees C per doubling of CO2 in the atmosphere continues. It’s the total atmospheric temps, including natural variations, that have had a statistically insignificant change in the past 18 years. We’ll have our first degree total of CO2 induced warming in about another century.
    “That happens all the time, you regularly denigrate other people ability to understand or their standing to comment on climate science on this blog”
    That you showed yourself incapable of either correctly representing pro-AGW science or pro-natural variations science, that criticism seems validated on this very thread. Stop calling me a denier and I’ll stop pointing out your bloody minded ignorance as vigorously.
    Nice editing of your statement, which was that I was guilty of playing an ‘”I am from Harvey Mudd so I know better” schtick’. I think that’s evidence you know it was unsupportable.
    “None of your money was used or SBC [sic]”
    Sure it is.

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  9. Steven Frisch Avatar
    Steven Frisch

    Greg, people can donate to non-profit organizations and it is tax deductible, we don;t need you to tell us which ones are OK to donate to. You don’t get to pick and choose.
    There was not such admission about the county, I was denying lying to the people for the organization I was part of, I stopped beating my wife last year by the way Senator McCarthy; I do not speak for he county, and we did not then.
    Yet you regularly use slowing of atmospheric temperature increase as evidence of the limited impact of humans, ignoring ocean temperatures or telling the readers how limited a measurement atmospheric temperatures are.
    Finally, you can think what you want about me, but you are the definition of an intellectual elitist and your peers here ignore it regularly.
    What charities do you donate to? Would you like me to approve the list?

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  10. Gregory Avatar
    Gregory

    “Well I guess right off the bat Willie Soon, Judith Curry and Richard Lindzen, two of whom you said you would choose to argue the case above would come to mind.”
    Bullshit on all three claims. That they are producing “denialist” research because they are getting money from conservative think tanks to produce that research, please, and it had better be more than a day or so of consulting time on the science that most science professors do as a matter of course.
    How many millions of grants has Michael Mann burned producing discredited research that even the IPCC doesn’t quote anymore?
    I get it, Steve, you want to be given a pass for your ignorance of the scientific issues at hand, while throwing epithets like “denier” at folks who don’t agree with the Hansens, the Manns, or the Pachauris of the world (the last guy having degrees in railway engineering, economics and dabbles in writing soft porn and in female subordinates) and the Gleichs that you, with studied ignorance, have decided are scientifically correct.
    Either argue the science, or STFU.

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  11. Gregory Avatar
    Gregory

    “Yet you regularly use slowing of atmospheric temperature increase as evidence of the limited impact of humans, ignoring ocean temperatures or telling the readers how limited a measurement atmospheric temperatures are.”
    Actual quotes, please.
    The influence of anthropogenic CO2 is smaller than natural variations, and that is supported by multiple lines of evidence, including measured temperatures being below virtually all of the simulation runs that alarmist science is based upon. Is that so hard for you to understand?
    http://images.remss.com/figures/climate/RSS_Model_TS_compare_globe.png
    The yellow is the 5-95% range for IPCC blessed simulation runs. Black is the actual temperature. Any questions?

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  12. Steven Frisch Avatar
    Steven Frisch

    Greg said: “I named a number of scientists in my first response to your multiple unprovoked ad homs, 18 April 2015 at 04:01 PM. Name one what is producing ‘denialist’ research because your designated bogymen are paying them.”
    Richard LIndzen is on staff at the Cato Institute and Lindzen charged “oil and coal interests $2,500 a day for his consulting services; [and] his 1991 trip to testify before a Senate committee was paid for by Western Fuels and a speech he wrote, entitled ‘Global Warming: the Origin and Nature of Alleged Scientific Consensus,’ was underwritten by OPEC.”
    Willie Soon received more than $1.2 million from the fossil fuel industry while failing to disclose that funding as required for review of his research.
    Judith Curry, in addition to being paid full time to be the Chair of her department and a Professor at the Georgia Institute of Technology, also runs a consulting business, the Climate Forecast Applications Network, who clients are not disclosed (so she is a lot like me!) where she is described the Founder and ‘Leader”.
    In an interview in she states, in her own words, “”I do receive some funding from the fossil fuel industry. My company…does hurricane forecasting…for an oil company, since 2007. During this period I have been both a strong advocate for the IPCC, and more recently a critic of the IPCC, there is no correlation of this funding with my public statements.”
    So I guess you are full of sh*t.

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  13. Gregory Avatar
    Gregory

    Let me translate for the open minded readers…
    Every penny of grants Soon (who I don’t think I’ve ever relied upon) got went to Harvard and the Smithsonian, who administered the grant and took about 40% off the top. It was all disclosed.
    Curry sells her weather forecasts to anyone who wants them.
    Lindzen consulted for Exxon for a couple of days and gave a speech once to OPEC. Real scary, eh?
    No one not in a Greenpeace frenzy thinks their published research was tainted. Pure ad hominem bullcrap from a usual suspect.

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  14. Steven Frisch Avatar
    Steven Frisch

    By the way, I never said the influence of anthropogenic CO2 is larger than natural variations; doesn’t everyone know that natural variation s greater? I said previously somewhere (I ain’t going to go look for it) that our output of roughly 30-35 gigatons of CO2 is small compared to the annual carbon cycle which is about 25 times higher but it is still important because it can’t all be absorbed, it stays in the atmosphere accumulating. Atmospheric CO2 is at its highest level in 15 to 20 million years.

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  15. Gregory Avatar
    Gregory

    “Yet you regularly use slowing of atmospheric temperature increase as evidence of the limited impact of humans, ignoring ocean temperatures or telling the readers how limited a measurement atmospheric temperatures are.”
    Actual quotes, please. That’s well within the scope of the trivial arts you specialized in, Steve.

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  16. Walt Avatar

    The professional begger and pain in the ass TROLL needs to crawl back under his rock.
    If it wasn’t for OPM, he would be under a bridge and still receiving OPM.. just not as much as he is accustomed too.

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  17. Steven Frisch Avatar
    Steven Frisch

    You can deny they are ‘influenced’ but it is the same charge you and others make about me when you call me a rent-seeker; Soon, Curry, to a lesser degree Linden, rent seek for their organizations. So let me be blunt, you are a complete hypocrite.
    Plus you are just flat out wrong about Soon, anyone here can just friggin’ Google it. And what I said was that Soon did not disclose the donations on his research papers, as was required, not that Harvard did not disclose it, so don’t put words in my mouth.

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  18. Gregory Avatar
    Gregory

    “but it is the same charge you and others make about me when you call me a rent-seeker”
    Not at all. Your value added is helping others navigate the maze you help push on others. Curry and Lindzen sell their expertise on the weather to companies that need it (and the oil companies operating platforms in the gulf need all the weather understanding they can get).
    Regarding Soon:
    “The truth is that the Smithsonian received a number of grants and then paid Dr. Soon and others salaries and travel expenses. Dr. Soon’s immediate source of funding was the Smithsonian. Nothing more needs saying about this entire issue.”
    — Dr. Christopher Essex, University of Western Ontario

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  19. Steven Frisch Avatar
    Steven Frisch

    You said “Name one” I named three.
    Readers can go read about the controversy for themselves, and check the sources, which is what Wiki is really good for:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Willie_Soon#2011:_Funding_controversy
    You are just never going to a admit you are wrong about anything Greg, it is your nature.

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  20. Walt Avatar

    Anyone been to Reno lately? There is an anti chemtrail billboard there to greet you.
    you can bet some ECO (ha)non profit pissed away good OPM money for it.

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  21. Walt Avatar

    Back at you Steevy,, You never answered my question. Any suckers on your cry for free rent?

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  22. Gregory Avatar
    Gregory

    “I never said the influence of anthropogenic CO2 is larger than natural variations; doesn’t everyone know that natural variation s greater?”
    No, they don’t. The whole point of the IPPC’s “tipping points” hysteria is that positive feedbacks will drive the world’s temperatures up even past the time of the Great Dying, the Permian-Triassic extinction event. Dick Alley at an AGU meeting even made the claim that the PT was due to CO2 because there wasn’t anything else to explain it.
    Believers in the effects of Galactic Cosmic Rays on climate might expect the PT had more to do with the PT being during an all time low GCR flux because our solar system was smack dab inbetween spiral arms of the galaxy, away from stars that had gone supernova that are the source of that cloud producing ionizing radiation.
    IPCC blessed research shows there are NO catastrophic warming scenarios for any CO2 sensitivity less than 2C for a doubling of CO2. Current best research from the reality based physics side of the aisle is that sensitivity is about 1 to 1.5C, the IPCC’s computer simulation based research says 1.5 to 4.5C. The latter range of the IPCC types has remained unchanged over the past 30 years despite hundreds of millions of dollars spent.
    Steve, why don’t you back up, dig up the link I gave to the APS climate review workshop transcript and read what Ben Santer actually says in a scientific review. Also Lindzen and Curry.

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  23. Gregory Avatar
    Gregory

    You named zero, Steve. Soon (again, I don’t think I’ve ever cited him thought he and Balyunas (sp)got a rotten deal a few years ago) does independent research not in some dank basement in his underwear but at the Smithsonian, and after their overhead, even if he got every other penny (and other staff gets some), that would only be about $40k a year. He’d be doing the same research even if Greenpeace gave him money (and with a $100million a year budget, that $40K is a roundoff error for them). He was even not even told of some of the grants as a condition of the grant.
    You and the other attack poodles rip any scientist not getting funding from the usual sources that only fund alarmists. That’s a formula for blackballing, not science.
    I get it, Steve; your entire business revolves around sustainability and may take a fatal hit when the AGW hits the fan.

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  24. Walt Avatar

    Gregory. Even over in Hawaii they try and blame some of their problems on sea level rise.
    Somehow the concept of erosion never crosses their mind.( It just HAS to be AGW) Never mind
    every time the wind blows dirt and sand go out to sea. Every good rain storm a little more “island” gets flushed away.
    If the IPCC (BS)computer models were even close, Hawaii would be charcoal cinders from all the “warming”. Funny how their temps have remained stable since the “chicken littles”
    started with their fear mongering.
    Since the ECO gang has been discredited, the same group of yappers needed a new Villon.
    Now they are all amped up over the new telescope. Crap… Now Steve will just HAVE to get the SBC in on the action. He might show up at the protest line with his hand out. ” I’m Mr. ECO from Calif. and here to help! Here is my bank account number to deposit “donations” into. Got a “green” telescope on the drawing board Steve?

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  25. Steven Frisch Avatar
    Steven Frisch

    You never said “name one i have cited” you said “Name one what [sic] is producing ‘denialist’ research because your designated bogymen are paying them.”
    I named three and proved it.
    I get it Greg, you CAN”T admit you are wrong because your entire world view that government should never be the protagonist in solving problems and that the market is the most efficient way to address problems fails if AGW is real.
    The same is true of George, Russ, Fish, Walt, Todd and Bill. All trapped in a world where facts challenge their ‘truth’.

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  26. Steven Frisch Avatar
    Steven Frisch

    Greg, I think the figures on Soon were $1.5 million, with $300K going to him as salary, fact checked and published, thus open to a libel suit if wrong. I’m not sure I would trust data from a scientist who does not know the conditions of his grants 🙂

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  27. Walt Avatar

    Stevy. You wouldn’t know the truth if it bit you in the ass.
    the only “truth” you care about is what lines your pockets.
    Your AGW kick has been debunked every day of the week and twice on Sunday.
    Just like FRACKING was the cause of “burning water”. Yup,, your clan swore up and down
    fracking was it. Then proved wrong. ( It suck must suck when that happens)
    Hell dude!! there is a burning water problem right down in Linda!! Uh,, who is fracking there?
    Fracking was to blame for earthquakes. Well shit… too bad an unknown fault was found.
    ya’ almost had something there.
    your side doesn’t have any facts. None!
    But do tell how you can eat or drink “pretty”.
    It’s a GREAT idea to let needed water flow out to sea. OH… BTW,, Instead of catching six damned fish and putting them in an aquarium, it makes perfect sense to release water into the Sac. river. Enough water for 150,000 homes for a year. Not six spices,, just six fish .
    ECO stupidity at it’s best.

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  28. Jon Avatar
    Jon

    Walt, not a single thing you said is based in reality. The world has passed you by, but you don’t even know it. What are you going to do in 20 years when renewables dominate the landscape? I bet you’ll still be railing against the tens of millions of Priuses and electric vehicles.
    Have you tried yoga sessions?

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  29. Gregory Avatar
    Gregory

    No Steve, you don’t think, and are willing to believe anything negative if it advances your politics and your company. The folks from Greenpeace doing the smear have been trying that for years and finally hit on something that got traction with journalists who think like you do.
    No, Steve, I’m the not the politically driven, scientifically naive animal you are. I was a believer in the AGW story until 2007, when I watched a particularly one sided bit of propaganda, The Great Global Warming Swindle, couldn’t believe the story being told in the press could be so contrary to the science and went reading the research for myself, starting with some of the scientists who were featured. TGGWS was generally true to the facts of the matter, and the research I found particularly convincing are the GCR related issues that Svensmark, Shaviv and Veizer have been instrumental bringing to the fore, with CERN’s Jasper Kirkby providing credible evidence of the mechanisms involved.
    It isn’t just coincidental that Lovelock relates the great climate centers are scared stiff they got the science wrong… that clouds and aerosols could be running the show. It’s pretty clear now they are, with the Svensmark/Shaviv/Veizer/Kirby having a string of successes, and IPCC projections continuing to diverge from reality.
    Soon’s grants really are all run through the Smithsonian, Soon’s employer, they do get 40% for their overhead, and from what I’ve read, there is a possibility a civil suit for libel could result. There’s a year for them to decide and you’ll just have to wait unless you want to go hassle Soon yourself.

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  30. Gregory Avatar
    Gregory

    Frisch, name the papers that:
    Curry wrote only because some evil entity bought her off;
    Lindzen wrote only because some evil entity bought him off;
    Soon wrote only because some evil entity bought him off.
    That’s what you are claiming. That’s what producing “‘denialist’ research because your designated bogymen are paying them” means.
    And that is, in essence, what most ‘mainstream’ climate papers are written to. Young researchers know they won’t get good funding if their results buck the consensus that the NSF and ‘mainstream’ climate journals expect, and the climategate emails included open conversations among the usual suspects where they discussed getting editors fired for publishing papers they didn’t want to have to contend with at the IPCC.
    The AGW meme is collapsing, whether you want to believe it or not. Enjoy the show.

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  31. Walt Avatar

    LOL!! Stevey has to drag out his ” jon” AKA..
    Big solar… Now there is a good one Stev… uh “jon”,, The Ivanpaw facility has to pipe in NG just to stay viable. Never mind all the birds it cooks on a daily basis.
    Yup wind is the way to go. Those things need replacing before they even pay for themselves.
    hen there is the permits that allow them to kill endangered birds.
    Uh,,, how much is the replacement costs for those batteries? ( about 52% of the value of the crap can they run.) Nope they don’t tell you that at the dealership.
    Now waddle off. It’s time you fill out the begging for money forms.
    I could bury you in facts, but I know damned well you won’t read them,, let alone comprehend them. So no use in wasting my time.

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  32. Walt Avatar

    Gregory. These scamitists were working for a preconceived outcome. The problem is that preconceived outcome never materialized. Now the excuse factory is working overtime on damage control. That’s why they are using the line, ” it’s getting cooler because of it getting warmer.”

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  33. Gregory Avatar
    Gregory

    Walt, all wind and solar plants must have NG or other fossil fueled alternatives spinning and ready to produce power for the grid in a fraction of a second… not just Ivanpaw, the grid would be unstable and prone to failure otherwise.
    I’ve flown over Ivanpaw when it was operating; besides cooking endangered bird species, it’s also a real eyesore.

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  34. Gregory Avatar
    Gregory

    just found another defamation by Frisch that needs response:
    “Bottom line is welfare queens like Walt and Greg need elitists like those who live in Marin and Beverly Hills to pay their freight, because they don’t generate enough taxes to do it on their own”
    No, Frisch, I don’t get any government checks and pay taxes on my cars, my home, my income and my airplane. Nice try, jerkwad.
    Still no bites on why you’re arguably the holder of a trivial arts degree, eh?

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  35. Steven Frisch Avatar
    Steven Frisch

    Clearly you guys are having a hard time with the “welfare queen” analogy.
    Of course the term welfare queen did not come from me, it came from the popular use of the meme in the 1970’s to refer to people who take welfare and live higher than their means.
    That is a practice some here abhor as evidenced by the aversion to pension debt.
    When I referred to Walt and Greg as welfare queens I knew it would get their goat, but the fact is that Nevada County receives more in state government services than we pay in taxes, as do most rural northern California counties, and the balance is made up by counties like Marin, Alameda, Contra Costa and Monterrey.
    So get on the bus guys, you pay taxes on your car, income, your home, etc….but those residents of liberal counties you love to hate pay for more than you do, and subsidize your lazy ass welfare lifestyle by paying higher tax rates on more income
    Speaking of welfare queens, Greg you said you are a private pilot. You keep your plane at the Nevada County Airport (NGOO), correct? Why should the taxpayers of Nevada County and the nation subsidize your fancy ass airplane? You may pay to store your plane, but did you pay for the runways, the safety, the infrastructure to actually operate that fancy plane?
    All of these decisions are about values. Of course I value civilian aviation for the benefits it brings, but I know that when the FAA pays for runaways only a very small portion of the population are using them.
    It’s going to be awfully hard squeezing into that cockpit with heels and a bouffant Greg.

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  36. Steven Frisch Avatar
    Steven Frisch

    I love how Walt just kind of lumps everything all together in a sort of stream of consciousness indictment against the ECO gang.
    Of course for me the jury is still out on fracking, much to the consternation of my liberal friends, because I think that if we diverted natural gas to vehicle fuels it MIGHT be a convenient bridge fuel as we transition to electric vehicles. Of course we may just leap right over NG as a bridge, since installed solar and wind are now price competitive with NG even without subsidy.
    And of course both Greg and Walt are full of it about our grid not being able to handle renewable energy and needing NG back-up.
    http://www.lowcarbongrid2030.org
    As far as water storage is concerned, I don’t ever remember actually ‘coming out’ as against storage of water behind dams as a general rule, I just question the economics behind the dams proposed in the Governors water bond. Seems like MWD and ACWA question the economics too.
    Regardless I am wonder Walt, who is going to pay for the collapse of the Bay Delta ecosystem when it crashes. I asked that question here a while adjoined no on answered. Why not? Do readers here even understand the consequences of a failed delta ecosystem? Do you get the idea that if we stop allowing some fresh water to go down the delta we will have huge problems with saltwater intrusion, contaminated drinking water supplies, salinity in agricultural soils and the entire food chain in the delta species will be affected?
    Why do you want to put farmers and fisherman out of business? Who are you to decide that cotton and alfalfa in Kern county is worth more to society than fishing for salmon on the north coast or row crops in San Joaquin county?
    Things are never quite as simple as the Walt’s of the world want to make the, are they?

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  37. Jeff Pelline Avatar
    Jeff Pelline

    Thank you Steve for keeping it “real” on this blog, which is akin to one of the fictional “lands” at Disneyland. It’s “God’s work,” to be sure.

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  38. Bill Tozer Avatar
    Bill Tozer

    I cannot believe I am going to give a thumbs up to former Gov Edmund G. “Pat” Brown. He thought big and was responsible for creating big water projects in the State of California. The Father of our current water delivery infrastructure. Of course today we are dealing with some of the shortcomings of Edmund’s handiwork and some did not particularly like his outlawing of prostitution in our northern counties. Oh well. We take the good with the bad.
    Today, we have Gov Brown Jr. who also thinks big and is the creator of the Fresno to Button Willows high speed Sage Brush Express Choo-Choo train. Get on board little children, there is room for many on board. Unfortunately, the new fangled rail will pass by thousands of parched acres and will make so many stops at lemonade stands along the way it will be neither fast nor non-stop. I just hope that our grandchildren don’t look out the train windows upon every square inch of the formerly fruited plains to see hundreds of square miles upon hundreds of square miles of those unsightly solar panels and wind machines creating their own microclimate. Not very green if you ask me.
    Ok, two different visions from Pop and Junior. Both big gov. One necessary, one not so liked, needed, or necessary.
    Now, I cannot believe I am also going to say something nice about Linda Ronstat’s ex-boyfriend who she dumped in Africa of all places. Jerry B. said the other day he will not be telling farmers which water wise crops to grow and which crops should not be planted. Jerry Brown said that reeks too much of “Big Brother” and he ain’t going there. Amen Brother Brown, Amen! I might just start using the term Moonbeam with affection. I be a closet lib now as well as a formerly closet cross dresser. Formerly solely because I have taken my fabulous fashion statements outside to the sunny side of the street to be displayed in all its shimmering majesty.
    I proudly don the title of Queen of Queens as being more man that most will ever be and more woman than any lib will ever catch.

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  39. Steven Frisch Avatar
    Steven Frisch

    I know this thread is about the SOJ but I could not let the charge that renewables are subsidized and fossil fuels are not, or that that is somehow OK, go unchallenged.
    OK, so I did some calculating of rail freight charges per car, with each car averaging 64.2 tons (but this is based on cost per ton so the size of the load does not matter, I used 64.2 tons per carload because this is the national average). I used freight rates as reported by the Surface Transportation Board in 2010. I used a national average length of haul, which was 900 miles. The average carload of agricultural product freight costs the shipper $2,809.00. The average carload of consumer goods is a little lower, about $2,525.00. The average carload of coal is about $975.00. The rate for coal is set by the STB based on federal legislation that gives coal a break on the price charged by shippers. In addition a portion of the shipping price can be deducted from corporate taxes paid by coal companies if they manage their own shipping, so corporate income tax rates are reduced on these companies.
    The Association of American Railroads describes, “In 2009, coal accounted for 47 percent of tonnage and 25 percent of revenue for U.S. railroads.”
    Wyoming coal (amongst the cheapest) costs $0.23 per ton to mine but $0.47 delivered to the Midwest. (That does not necessarily mean the cost of shipping doubles the price of coal because in the Midwest shipping by barge is much cheaper)
    Now an astute capitalist would say, “see they are the biggest customer”, but actually these shipments are split up between thousands of different jobbers, power plants, and customers, so this is not a function of buying in bulk; besides the reason rates are regulated is so that railroads can not charge smaller customers too much in relation to larger customers to avoid monopoly. Remember the progressive era when we actually cared about the little guys?
    Now, you tell me how it is not a subsidy to charge less to ship coal than to ship food, or consumer goods for that matter, and how that does not equate to consumers paying more for food and consumer goods to subsidize lower prices for electricity from coal fired power plants?
    And if we are subsidizing shipping coal at this level and we eliminated the subsidy what would it mean for the price competitiveness of renewable energy.
    Please remember this does not include the other negative externalities of coal production: human health, water quality and other environmental impacts, worker health and safety etc.

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  40. fish Avatar
    fish

    Posted by: Jeff Pelline | 20 April 2015 at 06:16 AM
    Shouldn’t you be out waiting for the man from Hostess?

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  41. Don Bessee Avatar
    Don Bessee

    Now lets not feed the troll who’s name we will not speak. Its bad enough his shill Frisch is stinking up the place with his liberal sputum. Coal in 2010 bears no relationship to now. 0 has succeeded in gutting the coal industry. Take it to the sandbox where it belong stevie.

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  42. Jon Avatar
    Jon

    Steve, you asked Walt about the Bay Delta ecosystem. I hate to add more work, and I know its embarrassing for him- but for his benefit you’re going to have to define and describe the term ECOSYSTEM. Reading his rambling simplistic scribes, its clear he has no idea what you mean, nor how complex an ecosystem can be.

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  43. Gregory Avatar
    Gregory

    Steve, I accept your forfeit on the previous line of argument. Thank you for trying to play. Now Jeff is here, another holder of a trivial arts degree, so you at least have some company.
    My fancy ass single engine airplane first flew during LBJ’s presidency, is fuel efficient at 170 mph, all it really needs is a simple grass strip and cost me less than what the Bentley or the It’s largely taxes on aviation fuels that provide airport improvements, and everyone benefits from the airport. It was first built on donated land (that will revert to the Litton family if it is decommissioned) because of the economic benefits to all, including Litton and the Grass Valley Group. Before it was expanded with the Litton land, it was a smaller strip that the mines used to fly gold out, not to mention other GA aircraft.
    GA airports are used for transportation for business, for pleasure, and for emergency services. Air ambulances, law enforcement, surveying, Fire suppression. Everyone benefits. I suppose it galls you that it’s a mile of road you can’t use without chartering an airplane, begging a ride or needing an air ambulance ride out after you shoot yourself in the foot, but I’ll probably never use the road by your house that my taxes helped pay for, either.
    Now, remembering I’m not a SoJ supporter, let’s consider that we have the government the coastal cities want because they have the votes, and the situation is not unlike that in aviation (no, “NGOO” is not the Grass Valley airport… in fact, no airport has an N prefix) where there is an issue over who pays for enroute air traffic control services. Imagine a dinner meeting at a truly hoity-toity steakhouse, with fat carnivore airlines who like their fine wines, and skinny teetotaling GA vegetarians who can only eat the dinner salads, but the carnivores, with more votes, get everything they desire and expect everyone to pitch in equally for the check.
    I don’t want or need the government designed to meet the desires of Planet Frisco and the current fat cat public employee unions. Tell me, how much does Frisco pay for the continuing rape of the Hetch Hetchy? Do they actually pay market rates for all the high quality water they need? Shouldn’t Frisco flush away its water for the sake of the snail darter?
    It’s so nice the carbonphobes think they can design a working grid without backup power generation. Good luck with that. The current grid needs backups; perhaps someday, if we are all willing to be in the dark some of the time, folks will put up with the lives you think they should leave bu once the AGW scare goes away, don’t expect the sheeple to put up with your schemes.
    Can’t play more, play nice while I’m gone.

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  44. Bonnie McGuire Avatar

    Todd, you’re right on regarding those being put out of work by the gov activist shutting down the timber industry (natural resources) and then hiring and spending money on those to retrain people to do something else for a living. We were in the trucking business for around 43 years hauling all kinds of commodities. Mel liked hauling logs because he could be home instead of being away all over the U.S. Consequently we received publications from the truckers organization, and from Loggers World publication that kept us up on what was going on. Loggers World told the story about a large lumber company in Montana that was forced into court by the environmentalists every time the U.S. Forest Service granted them a permit to cut timber. The company decided to quit doing business because it wasn’t worth the continual expensive war. 400 men were then out of a job. Then the Forest Service declared they had around 400 job openings….but these had to be filled by Mexican emigrants. Local men qualifying for gov job retraining didn’t matter.

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  45. Gregory Avatar
    Gregory

    Fixing up two sentences that got mangled:
    “…all it really needs is a simple grass strip and cost me less than what the Bentley or the Tesla I was stuck behind recently go for. It’s largely taxes on aviation fuels that provide airport improvements, and everyone benefits from the airport.”
    Perhaps I should also point out to the coercive utopian Friscoids here that it’s guys like me and George who actually did the work that created the value that fuels the spending you are hooked on.
    Fewer and fewer people believe the carbon scare. It’s going away but we have years of screaming and name calling before the capitulation can be expected. Payback will be a bitch.

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  46. Steven Frisch Avatar
    Steven Frisch

    Coal price looks pretty stable to me Don…of course this is not measured in the same units I measured it in but you get the picture…
    http://www.eia.gov/todayinenergy/detail.cfm?id=14631
    http://www.eia.gov/todayinenergy/detail.cfm?id=19491
    You guys need a research wing….

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  47. Steven Frisch Avatar
    Steven Frisch

    Posted by: Bonnie McGuire | 20 April 2015 at 11:24 AM
    Yes, I am really sure the USFS in Montana said they could only fill 400 job openings with ‘Mexican emigrants.’

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  48. Jon Avatar
    Jon

    oh come on Steve, it was a story in LOGGERS WORLD!

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  49. Walt Avatar

    What were you bragging about last night jon?? A dose of facts for ya’.
    http://dailycaller.com/2015/04/20/wind-turbines-kill-more-birds-than-bp-oil-spill/

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  50. Walt Avatar

    Keep it up Steve, the day will come someone has had enough of your slanderous attacks and false accusations, and will drag your happy ass into court. More and more Internet TROLLS like yourself are paying dearly. Just say’n…

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