Rebane's Ruminations
April 2015
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George Rebane

The State of Jefferson movement was started over a year ago to offer northern Californians and the citizens of its thinly populated rural counties an alternative to being ignored by the social engineers, central planners, and bureaucrats in Sacramento.  The cry from these people has been ignored for over a generation, and working within ‘the system’ of a state dedicated to serving the populous coastal urban areas which have totally different interests and goals has not worked, and shows no signs of working in the future.  If anything, the urban voters have sent more legislators to Sacramento to double down on the regulations and strictures they have already imposed on the rural north.


When the SoJ movement started, our collectivist neighbors could not contain their mirth at the foolishness of those of us who supported such a separation and creation of the 51st state (full disclosure, I was on the leadership committee of Nevada County’s SoJ contingent).  They pointed out what in their minds was the total infeasibility of creating such a jurisdiction – its finances would not work out, its economy would be in permanent shambles, and its citizens would become the nation’s poorest of the poor.

The problem with all those dismissive critiques is that they assume that SoJ would come to be and then dwell in a cocoon of eternal stasis – an environment where commerce, industry, resource harvesting and management, education, relationships, money flows, and ongoing government intrusion would remain as it is now.  Nothing could be further from the truth.

But the development I draw your attention to today is the sudden formation of a new ‘non partisan’ PAC called ‘Keep it California’ (KiC).  Something seems to have happened during these past months that has given pause to the smug voices of confident collectivists and nay-sayers, they are beginning to see the never-to-be-admitted possibility that SoJ may actually come to pass.  And even if it does not, then the growing debate surrounding SoJ, and other similar movements in states with unrepresented populations, would draw unwanted attention to the nation’s progress toward a command society that has adopted but not acknowledged the goals and objectives of Agenda21.  In the case of northern California, SoJ's growth and development must be stopped, and the region must be retained as a repository of natural resources inhabited by a docile and compliant shrinking population of the politically powerless.

The 17apr15 Union reports that KiC is now in a frenzy to quickly establish their chapters in all the counties where SoJ is active.  Their stated aim is “to monitor and respond to any incursions by Jefferson proponents.”  (emphasis mine)  They will begin these activities at the upcoming 12may15 Board of Supervisors meeting at the Rood Center during which the NC SoJ committee will be allowed one hour to present the merits of forming the new state.  KiC will be there to counter SoJ during the Q&A and public input segments of the gathering.

It is interesting that KiC also claims to support more representation and a louder voice in Sacramento for northern California, but they have not told us what things they would say with such louder voice.  In this regard they have presented nothing other than the intention to continue doing the same ol’ same ol’.  The only thing new about KiC is that it is the Left's belated and somewhat embarrassing recognition that SoJ is a real, visible, and dangerous movement which should be quashed in its cradle lest it change socialism's course in California and thus infect the rest of the nation.

Yes, the SoJ movement is putatively also non-partisan, but you have to be pretty dim not to understand that the overwhelming number of SoJ supporters are of the conservetarian bent, and that those now speaking for KiC are liberals.  And this is as it should be to explain the ideological foundations of both efforts.  One side is for ever larger government and control, and the other side is for smaller, less intrusive government and more individual liberties.

This is confirmed by SoJ opponents who base their arguments on the Left’s well-established notion of stasis.  They do not believe that a new state with a reinvigorated approach to constitutional governance can do better, or can recover from our country’s increasing pace toward socialism.  However, historically such sclerotic thinking is not and has never been in the American mindset.  In this most exceptional country the world has ever seen, the new and never-been-tried has always served as a beacon to innovation and a better life.

[19apr15 update]  We are fortunate in this post to have the enthusiastic participation of Mr Steven Frisch who joins his fellow liberals in opposition to the SoJ movement while contending that in California all is well.  In fact, according to Mr Frisch, under the load of the nation’s most strict and encumbering environmental regulations that burden us, he sees their impact as having provided a “wildly successful” environment in which these regulations have become “huge drivers of economic development and benefit in California.”  Mr Frisch’s participation in this debate provides considerable value to the reader along several avenues, all revelatory of today’s progressive mindset and methods.

For those new to these pages, Steven Frisch is one of this region’s leading liberal intellectuals who daily labors in the vineyards of collective thought as a career apologist for the Left’s consolidation of their overwhelming influence and power in the Golden State.  For the lightly read, Mr Frisch operates under the perfectly camouflaged canopy of a grant-fed NGO fortuitously (cynically?) named the Sierra Business Council.  As its CEO and public voice Mr Fisch promotes the progressive agenda both in the local councils of electeds and in our public forums.  He and his SBC minions busy themselves in assembling programs and delivering lectures to explain to our commissions and governing jurisdictions how best to comply with and enjoy the glories of policies and regulations pouring forth from Sacramento and Washington, and how higher taxes serve to benefit one and all.

With this background we may examine the course of the debate in the comment stream below.  And true to form, Mr Frisch does not recognize the economic disaster that has befallen California since 2007.  Here he rejects all reports and attendant evidence of what the nation and the world now recognize as the Great California Exodus.  For him and his, large corporations have not moved their plants and offices to greener climes.  And such enterprises have not chosen to locate their growth in other states.  There is no stream of productive Californians going to live elsewhere, to be replaced by the indigents and illegals making the state home for a third of the nation’s welfare recipients.  With more than one eighth of America’s economy, California’s fall in the Great Recession was deeper than that suffered by the nation overall, all due to its stifling regulatory environment and perversely skewed tax structure.  And for the same reasons the state has been a drag on the country, contributing to its tepid recovery.  However, Mr Frisch sees none of this, nor does he recognize the data, analyses, and reports that have made such crippled economic performance known worldwide.

Instead, the astute reader will recognize Mr Frisch presenting data that he considers to not only counter all that, but instead prove that California's economy is wildly successful.  To do that he dredges up analyses of gasoline prices in the state, and the number of increased jobs, and other figures to invite into the weeds the unsuspecting reader who may not recognize the irrelevancy of his specifics, and the presentation of baseless statistics (the raw numbers mean nothing, it’s the base-relative ratios that tell the tale).

The Left, as illustrated by Mr Frisch, does not want to look at the aggregates that impact and illustrate California’s dire straits within the nationwide context.  Our public schools’ performance, our relative GDP growth, our population dynamics and growth, rate of business formations, unemployment rate, … .   To the state’s progressive contingent all is well, all is well.

Finally, it is in recognition of all these truths that an organized, formidable, and well-funded opposition is now necessary in the form of a new PAC named ‘Keep it California’.  It is because we live in two different Californias, where we observe and experience two different realities, that the SoJ movement is not only alive and well, but has become the clear and present danger to achieving the larger objective to make California into the Potemkin posterchild of progressive governance and socialist success.

Posted in , , ,

259 responses to “Suddenly SoJ has become real (updated 19apr15)”

  1. Steven Frisch Avatar
    Steven Frisch

    It is 2015 Russ, 2015.

    Like

  2. Gregory Avatar
    Gregory

    “We all get to read the “experts” and then we have free will to choose who we trust.”
    Well yes, you have that free will, but what you describe is politics or religion. In science, the historic motto of The Royal Society (Sir Issac Newton is a past President) is Nullius in Verba… take no one’s word for it. It isn’t a matter of trusting an authority… it’s a matter of understanding their argument, evaluating the data, and deciding how well that model explains what is known about the real world. And as Feynman once put it, “It doesn’t matter how beautiful your theory is, it doesn’t matter how smart you are. If it doesn’t agree with experiment, it’s wrong.”
    When it comes to experiment, the data on atmospheric temperatures (as measured by both satellite and weather ballons aka radiosonde) is diverging wildly from the IPCC blessed general circulation models.
    http://images.remss.com/figures/climate/RSS_Model_TS_compare_globe.png
    http://www.remss.com/research/climate
    The way Steven Frisch of the SBC keeps his head from exploding is to ignore real data like that and go on the offensive. Yes, Steve, I’ve been saying the AGW meme has been collapsing for years, and it has been. When I started, the pause was 10 years in the making, now it’s been over 18 years since statistically significant warming has been seen worldwide by radiosonde or satellite sensors. Now, the temperature arrows, from oceanic cycles to solar cycles, are all pointing down.
    So, how will the ruling party in California handle a collapse of their single most visible organizing principle? I’d say break out the popcorn but it will continue to be a slo-mo event. In the meantime, the Great Exodus will continue.

    Like

  3. fish Avatar
    fish

    Posted by: Gregory | 19 April 2015 at 07:39 AM
    95% of the electorate is unable to, ‘understand the argument, evaluate the data, and decide how well that model explains what is known about the real world’ which is why we have the constant parade of “experts” herding the flock to the “proper” conclusion.
    I suppose it’s a good thing that the Manns and Grubers of this world need the ego gratification associated with letting their colleagues know how they just put one over on the rubes.

    Like

  4. Todd Juvinall Avatar

    It has never been about science but always about political power and control as well as money. The idea was concocted from whole cloth and the quest to find real world science in a fantasy has been funded by hundreds of billions of dollars ever since. Even Frisch gets his cut and he is adamant about keeping the largesse flowing from the weak kneed politicians cowed by the eco nut industry.

    Like

  5. Gregory Avatar
    Gregory

    Fish, yes, of course, but in the past experts (and educated lay audiences) who didn’t agree weren’t tarred by people like Steven Frisch with labels formerly reserved for neo-Nazis. What is particularly difficult for the unwashed masses is that in the physical sciences, it’s nearly impossible to prove anything true, no matter how tall the stack of evidence is… because one inconvenient truth can prove a theory false and it’s nearly impossible to know when you’ve discovered all that one needs to know.
    The debate ain’t over, and as the APS’s chair for their climate statement review wrote in the WSJ, the science is not settled.

    Like

  6. Gregory Avatar
    Gregory

    Here’s a bite from a paper on Sustainability published by the National Association of Scholars:
    “Could there be a campus sustainability movement in the absence of belief in an urgent anthropogenic global warming crisis? In principle, yes. There was a strong environmental movement long before the AGW hypothesis was invented, and the other components of the CSM—anti-capitalism and progressive social justice theory—are connected to AGW only by tenuous threads. Nonetheless the sustainability movement has bet heavily on the validity of AGW, and if the hypothesis proves false—or unsustainable—the movement would lose most of its credibility.” -page 98
    http://www.nas.org/articles/sustainability_higher_educations_new_fundamentalism1
    California’s ruling party has made the same bets as the sustainability movement… Gov. Brown’s train is but one example.

    Like

  7. Steven Frisch Avatar
    Steven Frisch

    For the purposes of critique and for those who prefer to paint California as a failed state for ideological purpose rather than deal in facts, the following statistics are drawn from the California Department of Finance, California Employment Development Department, the California Lutheran University Center for Economic Research, the UCLA Anderson School Economic Forecast, the Center for the Continuing Study of the California Economy and Beacon Economics.
    Under all of these trusted third party economic forecasters models California is now beyond talking about recovery from the ‘great recession’ and is in expansion mode. Whether you trust the Center for the Continuing Study of the California Economy, the UCLA Anderson Report, or Cal Lutheran’s Center for Economic Research and Forecasting, whose Q4 2014 starts, “This forecast is the most optimistic we’ve had for California in CERF’s existence,” the California economy is in very good shape relative to the rest of the nation.
    California has had a steady 3% increase in jobs throughout 2013 and 2014 and into the first quarter of 2015.
    The state’s falling unemployment is due to genuine improvements in labor markets rather than more workers giving up on their job search, which is a positive sign. Jobs will increase 2-3 percent over the next couple years. California’s 3% annual job gains from 2013-2014 have laid a solid foundation for future growth.
    According to Beacon Economics and the Anderson Forecast in addition to enjoying an approximately 3% per year annual GDP growth for the last two years, we can expect to see 3% GDP growth at least until 2018.
    At Forecast L.A. on April 7th, Beacon Economics Founding Partner Chris Thronberg said, “We’re on fire,” and, “Our economy is hot.”
    The UCLA Anderson Forecast on April 2 at UC Irvine touted the immense improvement in California’s economy, and how it will drive positive momentum between now and 2020.
    All four forecasts and recent data from EDD and DOF show that the housing market is improving, construction jobs are rising which is an important indicator of future wage growth, housing will gain more traction, and all of this bodes well for homeowners and commercial property owners whose equity will increase leading to more investment capital in the economy. There were 100,000 new housing starts in 2014, which will be increasing to more than 120,000 per year between 2015-2018.
    Continuing job growth is already meaning higher wages for workers, which rose approximately 2% in 2014 increasing to 4% a year over the next 3 years. This coupled with easier access to credit means workers will have more capacity to borrow and which means increased spending.
    As mentioned earlier on this thread and disregarded in 2014 California hit record levels for venture capital investments.
    All of these trusted and in fact regularly cites sources by both George and Russ agree the California economy is strong, growing and has reason for real optimism. If they were good enough sources for them to cite when things were bad why would they be bad sources when they are optimistic?
    Are some businesses leaving the state? Absolutely. Are new businesses being created and are existing businesses expanding? Absolutely. This is the essence of ‘creative destruction’ and is to be expected. Is the price of a U-Haul a proxy for some of the best data based economic sources and most experienced forecasters in the country, sources you yourselves have regularly cited? No.
    Now I am aware that many of you think I am an apologist for the Brown administration. To assuage your fears I agree, and have agreed here in the past, that there are problems. I agree that we are not doing enough to drive business and job growth into rural regions, that we need reforms in our state budget process, that we need tax reform, that we need to reform CEQA, that we need to take advantage of growth to address under-employment (which George has pointed out here is a global trend), that we need to address pension debt.
    In every one of those areas (except pensions) I have worked in Sacramento to join others to propose solutions.
    The reason we are talking about the economy is that it is the rationale many have for the creation of the State of Jefferson. As George demonstrated in his original post, people are captured by the magical thinking that secession and creation of a new state will solve these problems.
    I am here to tell you the problem isn’t as bad as you are painting, things are getting better fast, and the way to solve the rural economic problem is to dig in and do it for the rural regions now and together, rather than waiting for some revolution that is not going to happen.
    First, the state and federal legislatures are never going to agree to the creation of a new state. It would upset too many balances of political power at the state and federal level; it opens too many issues of who owns what between the state, the feds, and the SOJ; it opens the door to other secession movements across the country that would throw things like the electoral college and congressional representation into turmoil, and there is a reason it has not happened since West Virginia split off in 1862. The California legislature and the US Congress are never going to approve the SOJ.
    Second, the stories you are hearing that the SOJ would improve local economies based on its own federal land management policies are bunk. Every federal law you guys hate that manages federally owned natural resources would still apply in the SOJ. The Clean Water Act, Clean Air Act, National Environmental Planning Act, the National Forest Management Act, the Federal Powers Act, the Antiquities Act, the Endangered Species Act, they will all apply, and they will all be enforced by their respective agencies whether through the SOJ or California.
    Third, representation within the SOJ will still be governed by United States Supreme Court decisions, and the decision that established the ‘one person-one vote’ rule, Reynolds v. Sims. Some, like Mike Baird, may say, “well lets just overturn Reynolds v. Sims”, as a matter of fact he sad that last month. Well all of you here know that is not going to happen. Ever. You could not even convince conservative Supreme Court justices to overturn Reynolds, because it would be the Prop 187 of the conservative movement at the national level. You would permanently disenfranchise the Republican Party from African and Hispanic American voters.
    Here is the part of George’s statement that I agree with wholeheartedly, “The cry from these people has been ignored for over a generation, and working within ‘the system’ of a state dedicated to serving the populous coastal urban areas which have totally different interests and goals has not worked, and shows no signs of working in the future.”
    The answer to this problem is not to waste our time attempting to split from the state, which will never happen, but to bring the concerns, issues and solutions to rural problems to the halls of power and demand change. We may disagree on exactly what that change is, but harnessing the dissatisfaction of rural regions about how the state has invested in rural California will make a huge difference. To tie that change to a hare brained scheme that is the object of not just derision but that pro-actively offends both residents and decision-makers from other regions of our state, is sheer folly, is counter-productive to the real aims of people who think we need a SOJ, and is doomed to failure.
    Now I don’t doubt that we would disagree on much, but we would likely agree on much, like the need for investments in infrastructure and housing, forest management and energy, rural broadband connectivity, business development, area of origin water rights, improved education and tax reform.
    To spend time, resources and limited local government capacity on the SOJ merely retards progress in all of these areas where reasonable people could find common ground and where we could carry a common message to Sacramento that we need a fair deal in rural California.
    And that is the real problem with both George’s sentiments reflected above and the entire SOJ movement, it is derivative and intentionally polarizing, and a luxury for armchair philosophers of some idyllic ‘conservatarian’ state who have no real stake in the outcome, but who choose to adopt this movement for individual glory, political power and gamesmanship. People like Mike Baird are going to end up on Fox News and the lecture circuit, sucking people like George into paying to hear them speak to rooms of disgruntled retirees who have nothing better to do than see Richard Mack and Rosa Koire spin conspiracy theories based on chimera.
    Meanwhile the people who work, and live, and raise their kids, and depend upon real leadership to improve their condition will suffer while their local representatives pay lip service to Tea Party types holding a gun to their heads, while laughing behind the scenes at all the silly things they have to do to assuage the base, which is exactly what is going to happen on May 12th.

    Like

  8. fish Avatar
    fish

    Meanwhile the people who work, and live, and raise their kids, and depend upon real leadership to improve their condition will suffer while their local representatives pay lip service to Tea Party types holding a gun to their heads, while laughing behind the scenes at all the silly things they have to do to assuage the base, which is exactly what is going to happen on May 12th.
    Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahah!
    …..whew.
    Stevie everyone who posts here does just fine living in “your” world. We get to criticize what we think is wrong and that is what the SoJ proponents seem to be doing.
    I thought that this would be another instance when you would simply fall back on your pose of smug superiority bemused at silly antics of the unenlightened.

    Like

  9. Gregory Avatar
    Gregory

    From the Director of UCLA’s Anderson Report, one of Frisch’s claimed sources (though he’s soft on details):
    “The United States has had 25 percent growth in payroll jobs since 1990. Can you name the three major cities that had job declines over that same period? You might find it easy to think of two: Detroit and Cleveland. The third, and actually the worst of the three, was Los Angeles, which lost 3.1 percent of its payroll jobs over those two decades.
    Even in California’s most successful cities, San Francisco and San Jose, there has been little or no overall job growth in the last decade, and the substantial progress up north has supported jobs and income for the few, not for the many.”

    http://newsroom.ucla.edu/stories/forecast-director:-l-a-has-three-big-problems
    Forecasting paltry growth over the next couple of years does nothing to regain lost ground.

    Like

  10. Steven Frisch Avatar
    Steven Frisch

    I am not soft on details, as you just proved you can go read the reports for yourself.
    I fully acknowledge there are some problems and did so. Of course the report i cited was from April 2015 while the one you are citing is from April of 2014. There have been some changes since 2014. That is what economic reports track. And the point that job creation has over time meant jobs have move to exurban areas is well known. LA and SF have some clear constraints, like lack of developable land, which leads to new ventures looking on the edges.
    The biggest change in LA was the decline of the aero-space and aircraft industry, which I am sure George can attest to.
    By the way, in my comments I agree that we need broader job creation and to focus on under-employment.
    What I am objecting too is this absolutist vision of the economy that George and Russ seem so intent on pushing. The real issues are much more nuanced than “companies are having California”. Sure, some companies are leaving California, we are also creating companies, and some companies are moving here. Happens all the time.

    Like

  11. George Rebane Avatar

    StevenF 922am+ – Steve, we are clearly talking past each other in that you cite hopeful predictions (by the usually ‘surprised’ suspects), while I and others cite recorded performance. In re SoJ, you may agree that our representation in Sacramento is broken, but you and yours have not offered any alternatives of how we may get our voice heard save through the usual pabula and palliatives of ‘we have to work together’ (aka the Rodney King solution).
    As a spokesman for centralized power, you would do much better to attract us as willing partners for the resurgence of rural California if you gave even a hint of acknowledging the stifling effects of regulations, and that if you tax something more, you get less of it. Is there any hope for such thoughts in a progressive mind?
    Administrivia – I draw your kind attention to the 19apr15 update to this post in which I offer qualified praise for Mr Frisch’s considerable contributions to this discussion and debate that goes far to illustrate the state of public affairs in California.

    Like

  12. Steven Frisch Avatar
    Steven Frisch

    George, I think you must have missed the metrics of actual performance that are also included in my comments–job creation, increased income, housing starts, etc.–and that skews your critique.
    The question still stands, how can you cite a source at one time as qualified yet reject it at another? There is a real problem with that.
    I also am on record here many times supporting changes in the regulatory and tax structure–CEQA reform, sunset provisions, performance metrics, zero based budgeting, changing timber practices, reducing business taxes–yet you never seem to able to acknowledge that. I may not want to do everything you want, nor do we agree on precisely what to do, but to say I never acknowledge the impact of regulations nor propose change is a misrepresentation of my position.
    Is this an either or proposition George–either agree with you 100% or be be branded a collectivist, liberal–if so what is the point of your blog? Isn’t it to help people hash some of their thoughts o these issues out? And if I am to agree that if you tax something you get less of it, isn;t that just another way of saying you get more of something else? Perhaps something better.
    I am on record, tax fossil fuel, get more renewables. I totally support that.

    Like

  13. Steven Frisch Avatar
    Steven Frisch

    Wow, what an update that is George. Just goes to show one how you welcome a different voice to the fold here. Post at George’s and be essentially attacked both personally and professionally and with what are clearly lies and falsehood only to have that parroted by the legion of intellectually bereft minions.
    You are a real class act…I knew you were from they way you lied to Paul Emery about following any sort of rules of decorum in a public format.
    But to the great unwashed and rare outside reader, I think you just got a taste of why the State of Jefferson movement is so doomed to failure and such a waste of time. Because it s supported by people who are more interested in sitting on the porch collecting their old age pensions while reading The Blaze and kvetching about how they use to walk five miles to school in the snow when they were children than actually working on a real solution.

    Like

  14. Bill Tozer Avatar
    Bill Tozer

    Mr. Frisch, I find your whining about agreeing 100% with Dr. George or “be branded a collectivist, liberal” rather odd. Therefore I disagree with your premise, you pinko Marxist socialist commie bastard. But, all is not black and white. You have plenty of gray matter left in your Mellon. Plus, we must keep reminding ourselves that the Internet has changed the way we communicate, dear comrad.
    https://www.facebook.com/boom99.7/photos/pb.222336294466387.-2207520000.1429467142./973968799303129/?type=3&theater

    Like

  15. Walt Avatar

    Hummmm… I wonder where Steve will skedaddle too when SoJ becomes reality?
    I’m pretty sure the current state freebie handout bucket will dry up.

    Like

  16. Steven Frisch Avatar
    Steven Frisch

    Walt, I am wondering if you have that critique of my motivations, would not the same motivation be present in scientists who fund their work through conservative think tank and produce reports denying climate change? How do you rationalize the inherent inconsistency of your world view?

    Like

  17. Terry Burns Avatar
    Terry Burns

    SoJ a reality? Wheres the money coming from, certainly not from the sale of water…..
    If you look at the proposed SoJ budget, they could not even generate enough money to fund the Police and Fire Services without big help from another resource. What about schools, healthcare etc.?
    Nice thought, but no resources to make this happen….

    Like

  18. Steven Frisch Avatar
    Steven Frisch

    Hey, I am just saying Bill that I put ideas out there, your friends just don’t agree with them, or credit them in any way, which just goes to show you how absolutist the entire mind set here is. Sit on porch, drink beer (or wine for those elitists that fancy themselves kultured), collect pension, complain about the world, support bat shit crazy nonsense, and blog until your fingers bleed.
    Actually as long as the crew here is wasting their time blogging they are not out there doing anything, which works for me!

    Like

  19. Steven Frisch Avatar
    Steven Frisch

    Totally correct Terry, not only where is the money coming from, but where is the money to repay the SOJ’s portion of the state debt coming from? I calculate that at more than $300 per person, per month for the next 20 years.

    Like

  20. Steven Frisch Avatar
    Steven Frisch

    Bottom line is welfare queens like Walt and Greg need elitists like those who live in Marin and Beverly Hills to pay their freight, because they don’t generate enough taxes to do it on their own 🙂

    Like

  21. George Rebane Avatar

    StevenF 1143am – No AGW skeptic (or conservative think tank) denies climate change – that notion is the eternal red herring of progressives. What they do deny is the veracity of govt sponsored (includes academics) ‘science’ that infamously interprets data, predicts the unpredictable with demonstrably flawed tools, and then propagandizes that we know how to and therefore must bend climate to our benefit through an amalgam of non-uniformly applied public policies formulated by agenda-driven politicians incapable of understanding climate science as it is.
    re TerryB’s 1145am – a classic example of the Left’s ongoing embrace of stasis.

    Like

  22. Jeff Pelline Avatar
    Jeff Pelline

    George,
    California will never be the state that you envision, just as Southern California wasn’t when you fled to western Nevada County from Simi Valley. In fact, this community is changing as well. While this blog is a good way to vent, it will never influence public policymaking beyond a mall core group of like-minded readers. Along with the name calling in this email thread, your “update” only serves to support your misunderstanding that the SOJ is opposed by people of all political stripes, not just liberals. I hope the BOS has the courage that clear during this upcoming spectacle.

    Like

  23. Steven Frisch Avatar
    Steven Frisch

    No problem George, except, some do actually deny climate change, like Greg, and some deny the anthropogenic contribution to climate change. And the point you are making is derivative: the question is Walt if you questions my motives because you suspect they may be financial, do you equally suspect others, and if not, why not?
    Every discussion here by the way turns into and exercise in circular logic. George, you have completely failed to actually respond to any of my key points about the California economy–you dismiss them, as oh, woe is me, too much data. I don’t deny there are problems, why do you deny that there are good things happening?
    It all comes back to motives–if good things are happening it weakens your ideology.

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  24. Steven Frisch Avatar
    Steven Frisch

    Posted by: Jeff Pelline | 19 April 2015 at 12:07 PM
    I suspect they will not ‘clear that up’ Jeff because people like George are holding a figurative gun to their heads. Oppose the SOJ and you are not sufficiently right wing enough for us and we will work doubly hard to replace you at the next election.
    Wanna bet?
    The more conservative Supes who think this is bat-shit just want it to go away, which is why Keep It California is so important.

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  25. fish Avatar
    fish

    Posted by: Steven Frisch | 19 April 2015 at 11:50 AM
    Then there is some plan for a “unified” California to retire this debt (I assume that a similar percentage would apply to the state as a whole) instead of relying on the smoke and mirrors accounting that’s currently in vogue under the governance of the democrats pulling the levers of power in Sacramento?

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  26. fish Avatar
    fish

    I suspect they will not ‘clear that up’ Jeff because people like George are holding a figurative gun to their heads. Oppose the SOJ and you are not sufficiently right wing enough for us and we will work doubly hard to replace you at the next election.
    …and that’s different from the political process in general how?

    Like

  27. Steven Frisch Avatar
    Steven Frisch

    No there is no pan, Fish, but SOJ residents will lose the largess of the more wealthy regions in helping to subsidize paying the debt, and SOJ will have to pay their portion of the debt before they secede so you are really supporting taxing the average household about $600 per month if you vote to secede.

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  28. Steven Frisch Avatar
    Steven Frisch

    Posted by: fish | 19 April 2015 at 12:17 PM
    No different than the political process Fish, and never aid it was, just think that if you are going a figurative gun to someone’s head you should do it for something that means something.

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  29. fish Avatar
    fish

    Posted by: Steven Frisch | 19 April 2015 at 12:22 PM
    Who are you to tell them that this isn’t important?
    I think your AGW obsession is nonsense but you’re welcome to beat your gums about it (and suffer the mockery associated with your belief) all you want.

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  30. Bill Tozer Avatar
    Bill Tozer

    Well, the California economy better be doing better since The Great Recession has officially ended a few years ago. Jobs have been created. I know this as a fact because I have 3 of them. Now, from a historical perspective, we are much much closer to the next recession than a robust recovery.
    Mr. Frisch seems like a very intelligent, articulate fellow. And, as former Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid might add, Mr. Frisch is probably clean, good looking, and speaks without the Negro dialect.
    I believe the flaw in one of the points Mr. Frisch put forth is that Sacramento will not heed rural counties’ concerns with any sense of urgency or seriousness. Sure, they might toss us hillbillies a bone or two until we calm down and quit being uppity and get put back in our place. They (the powers to be) will wait till the winds change and this silly notion of having a new State with effectual representation blows over. Nothing to see here, move on. Our influence in reality won’t change a lick today or tomorrow or 5 years from now.
    I am saddened by the constant drumbeat of liberal old angry white men like Curtis Walker & Co. commence to put down the elderly white folks on pensions with such an insulting tone. We old geezers here are allowed to sit on the swinging bench under the ole shade tree, swinging and whittling to our heart’s content but not blooding our fingers blogging on matters too great for us to comprehend, much less comment about. That is reserved for old angry white liberal men drawing their pensions and the few shakers and movers of the progressive bent. Most ironic. Well, a few parting thoughts before the speech police come a’knocking.
    https://www.facebook.com/boom99.7/photos/pb.222336294466387.-2207520000.1429470331./971010566265619/?type=3&theater

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  31. Steven Frisch Avatar
    Steven Frisch

    Posted by: fish | 19 April 2015 at 12:29 PM
    Seriously Fish this entire blog is premised on people saying what they think is important and NOT important. I have as much of a right as anyone else. Who is George or Greg or anyone else to say that what I work on is not important? I would ask you the same question I asked Walt–how do you live with having what are clearly double standards?

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  32. Steven Frisch Avatar
    Steven Frisch

    We don’t dislike old white men on pensions Bill, we dilate old white men on pensions whose ideas represent the 19th century. I have a lot of friends who are old white men on pensions and plan to be one one day 🙂

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  33. Todd Juvinall Avatar

    Jeff Pelline | 19 April 2015 at 12:07 PM
    Wow! Now let me get this straight. California was the greatest state in our great country. A leader in all aspects, economic, sociol and education for most of my life. Then the democrats decided to make it better. In their attempts, the wrecked the place and people like Pelline and Frisch are just fine with all that apparently.
    So if we all acknowledge how great it was under the circumstances and governance it once was, why can we not have it back? Pelline is just a negatory man while Frisch receives largesse from the dismal place and its grants and tax structures so they are of course “happy” with the current circumstances.
    Though I am not a supporter of SoJ I understand why people have risen up to take back the place from the liberal usurpers. It won’t be easy but one thing is for sure, people like theFrich can always find a way to make money by being good butt kissers to the powerful. I mean jeeze, he is opposed to oil and gas yet loves the revenues they bring. If ever there was a clear example of hypocrisy. As bad as taking money from the tobacco taxes for children’s health programs.

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  34. Steven Frisch Avatar
    Steven Frisch

    Man I hate auto spell.

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  35. Walt Avatar

    Where will the money come they say? Uh,, it already here. It just won’t be sent to Sac. anymore. The good chance the mines can be opened again. Money from the ground.. What a concept. The idea of a new state peeling away from another, or telling the state that an aria is currently part of to kiss their collective ass and say ” WE are now joining “this” state,, is catching on back East. All thanks to rabid Progressiveness. ( A part of N.Y. off the top of my head,, due to oil and gas extraction restrictions… )
    Progressives have done a FINE job of dividing the nation, even to the point of states wanting to break away from each other, all because of their collective bullshit. From hyper taxation, hyper gun control, and the biggy,, hyper ECO.
    LIBS have so much baggage their own Donkey mascot is refusing to haul the load.
    The SoJ idea is only going to grow, when the likes of LA. and S.F. demand more of OUR resources. ( like WATER) We up here need to go without to fill the swimming pools of city LIBS.. Nope, that isn’t going over vary well.

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  36. fish Avatar
    fish

    Posted by: Steven Frisch | 19 April 2015 at 12:49 PM
    Seriously Fish this entire blog is premised on people saying what they think is important and NOT important.
    I have as much of a right as anyone else.

    You seem to have exercised that right a great deal this weekend…without out any restrictions. Again, the SoJ people have as much right to waste the governments time as anyone.
    Who is George or Greg or anyone else to say that what I work on is not important?
    Correct me if I’m wrong but the Sierra Business Council receives grant money? Tax money?
    Seems to me that makes it eligible for discussion. If this isn’t the case then a retract the assertion.
    I would ask you the same question I asked Walt–how do you live with having what are clearly double standards?
    While I won’t deny your point right now you’re going to need to narrow it down a bit.

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  37. Walt Avatar

    Here is a little on the New York split.
    http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2014/feb/17/secession-movement-in-new-york-pushes-for-big-appl/?page=all
    The bottom line is,, if secession takes place anywhere, the Progressive LIB caused it.
    So they can add that to their list of “accomplishments”.

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  38. Walt Avatar

    Steevy is now making outright false statements!! ( I missed it earlier)
    You can go screw yourself. I have never taken one dime in welfare! NEVER!!!
    I have worked for everything I have. Unlike YOU , who has a hand outstretched 24/7.

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  39. Steven Frisch Avatar
    Steven Frisch

    Hey Walt, I think you missed the point…which I made intentionally vague just to make you mad…everyone who lives in Nevada County is a welfare queen the way I defined it…we pay less in state taxes than we receive in state services from the state.
    So you are all (except Fish and perhaps Bill?) queens! Put on the pumps and fishnet stockings boys. Get your bustier on! You are all sucking on the teat of big government.
    By the way Fish by your logic I have a right to critique a military veterans life style choices because they are getting veterans benefits. Can I critique people’s lifestyles who are on social security? If so I think George needs to buy a Prius instead of a Jeep.

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  40. Walt Avatar

    Typical When people like him got nothing to argue with they resort to slander.
    Funny. The likes of SBC survives on “welfare”. ( handouts from others)
    Yup,, since I pay taxes, he even fleeces MY pockets.

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  41. Steven Frisch Avatar
    Steven Frisch

    Walt you ever take a public contract for dirt moving? QUEEN!

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  42. Steven Frisch Avatar
    Steven Frisch

    See you guys can dish it out but you really can’t take it. I provide services. My clients are both public and private (mostly private). There is no difference between what I do and anyone else who takes any public check for anything.

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  43. Bonnie McGuire Avatar

    I can’t believe the idiocy of those exploiting climate change at the expense of working people and our economy. It’s amazing how blind, deaf and dumb some people are paid to be. From what I’ve learned from earlier scientists with an honest agenda, in publications, and what they posted along our highways and national parks the earth has always been in a process of climate change regardless of the animals populating it. Our landscape in America used to be covered with a glacier that reached almost to Mexico. It’s been warming for over 14,000 years when the mastodons roamed on America. This is the earth’s way of transforming its surface. Valleys carved by melting, moving ice and water. Scientists believe a Super Volcano erupted and created climate change in a little over a week because of the tremendous amount of sulfur it expelled into the atmospere creating an ice age glacier. Where’s the last glacier on American soil? It’s gone because the climate has been warming for centuries. I realize there are those that are well paid to keep their heads in the sand, so no amount of reason will change what they’re being paid to teach.

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  44. Walt Avatar

    “Put on the pumps and fishnet stockings boys. Get your bustier on! You are all sucking on the teat of big government.”
    That’s a good one. Seems YOUR the one with calloused knees. To get as much money you get you sure must use that tongue mighty pretty. Ya’ work weekends at the Bunny Ranch? They have been in the political news lately.

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  45. Steven Frisch Avatar
    Steven Frisch

    Walt you did not answer my question, did you ever take a government contract or work a government job as a dirt mover? (I ain’t dissing your job, I would ask the same of a Phd, like George)

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  46. Walt Avatar

    That’s the best ya’ got Steve? Now attacking prevailing wadge? ( gov. dirt work)
    Uh,, just “who” pushed for those ridiculous pay scales? Your fellow LIBS.
    So you have no one to blame but your own.

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  47. Walt Avatar

    I didn’t see you bitching about that 50 grand in junk “art” for the roundabout in GV.
    Yaaa… Take shots at me… Nice try.
    BTW.. wipe your chin.

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  48. Todd Juvinall Avatar

    What a hoot! The biggest whore here, the SBC fellow, is calling all of the people welfare queens in Nevada County! So let me get this straight. The SBC supports laws against all the natural resources being extracted here, then lobbies for money to retrain all those they help put out of work then have the heuvos to call those they crapped on “queens”! Now if that isn’t rich. My goodness, with that logic is it any wonder the state is in crapola land?

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  49. Steven Frisch Avatar
    Steven Frisch

    I think you are saying yes you have received money from government contracts (regardless of your position on prevailing wage, but I know you are against it, and yes, it sounds like you accepted prevailing wage too!)
    So, you live on welfare, in your book, just like me.

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  50. Todd Juvinall Avatar

    Walt, Frisch is delusional. What a hoot! His comedy act is truly amazing.

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