Sandbox – 16apr15

April 2015
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Sandbox – 16apr15

16 April 2015

[Readers were starting to complain about the old sandbox getting a bit "stale" (some would have chosen a more robustly descriptive term, but then we do promote decorum on these pages), so we open a new one. This day is propitious for another reason, today I brought home my fourth Jeep Grand Cherokee and bid a tearful good-bye to my last one, an unimaginably reliable vehicle that saw us through thick and thin, on/off road for thirteen years. To me these cars have become as comfortable as a pair of old shoes, even though its designers (marketers?) try to foo-fooize the newer models with every imaginable button, beep, and display. Hope this brand new baby grows up to have the legs of its forebears.]

Posted in Comment Sandbox

156 responses to “Sandbox – 16apr15”

Todd Juvinall

22 April 2015

Just heard the ABC radio report on the fracking/earthquake theory. It was “we think” “maybe”, “could be”. Sorry, you have no proof “hon”.

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George Rebane

22 April 2015

BenE 932am – your citation clearly supports the theory that messing with deep geological formations by high pressure injection of (exogenous) fluids will lubricate them enough to cause slippages and settlings that give rise to small EQs.
The big damaging EQs originate much deeper than the ones that are plausibly involved with fracking, and they involve shifts in the earth’s tectonics, not the superficial layers close to the surface. Sure would like to see few of the refs that some geologist “well versed in the earth’s crust” could cite which provide similar support for the current small EQ swarms in OK, TX, SD, etc.
But the bottom line IMHO is that these shallow EQs are fairly harmless, and will settle out when fracking is stopped. So the locals have to make a decision whether to shut off the wells and take a hit to their economies, or continue and suffer the occasional minor shake. Having lived in soCal all my life and ‘lived through’ hundreds of such EQs, they are no big deal and everyone is used to them, even though California’s small EQ’s, originating from tectonic plate shifts, may be harbingers of the next big one. There is no evidence that the shallow ones in the interior portend such dangers. Thanks for digging out the 1966 paper Ben.

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Walt

22 April 2015

What?? You don’t know what is causing man made earthquakes near Clear lake?
Some “man of knowledge” you are. Ever hear of geothermal? 33 register-able quakes in just the last 24 hours. And that is just today. All “man made” earthquakes.
http://earthquake.usgs.gov/earthquakes/map
If you care to, you can go back a week on that map to see what a week of quakes look like.
“The Geysers” geothermal operation. Funny you have never heard of it.
LOL… Ya’ pick out one referenced web site. What did you need? the whole search page?
I’m surprised you didn’t bitch about The Blaze!
As for Texas, earthquakes,, Read it and weep.
http://dfw.cbslocal.com/2015/02/06/seismologist-say-a-fault-is-at-fault-for-irving-earthquakes/
http://www.smu.edu/News/2015/earthquake-update-06feb2015
Uh,,, need more?
Now the news flash!!! According to a BIG AGW alarmist we only have 156 days till global chaos! The planet is going to revolt!!

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Todd Juvinall

22 April 2015

George has it correct. The EQ’s are of no concern anyway. My sister lived on the Big Island for 15 years and experienced numerous small quakes on a daily basis. Their is no fracking there. All the minor quakes in the Bay Area come from tectonic movements, not fracking. This is simply another way for the eco’s to sell their wares with fear. Unfortunately there are some “red state” people that fall for it. I think Russ Steele did a article on this an discussed the depths of fracking and earthquakes.

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Jon

22 April 2015

Walt, quite a ramble there. Sorry, not too familiar with Clear Lake and The Geysers; its an area I have to reluctantly pass on the way to the coast.
BTW, my link was to the official Oklahoma government website, with extensive documentation and science of the impacts from the oil and gas industry. Again, kudos to George for acknowledging and not ignorantly dismissing anything that can be construed as negative toward the oil and gas industry. Its up to the people of OK and Texas as to whether they can live with these 3.0+ earthquakes coming constantly due to the indirect impacts of fracking. One more reason not to live in OK or Texas.

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Jon

22 April 2015

Todd, gotta say- I loved how you stridently denied a single impact from the oil and gas industry in OK, your brother-in-law is the expert, blah blah blah, then suddenly turn around and agree with George that an OK earthquake rate of 600 times the historical avg. caused by water displacement from oil and gas, is of “no concern anyway.” Slick.

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Todd Juvinall

22 April 2015

“jon” are you for real? I have no idea what you are talking about. Are you a geologist? Jeeze! It appears you don’t read items that are contrary to your world view. You should open your mind to other things.

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Jon

22 April 2015

What do you recommend one read on the subject in place of the official OK Geological report on earthquakes caused by oil and gas impacts, prepared by Geologists? strangesounds.org perhaps? Has your brother-in-law published something on the subject?

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Todd Juvinall

22 April 2015

strangesonds.org? Come on “jon” you must e kidding?

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Jon

22 April 2015

Todd, that site came from your friend Walt. Ask him about it.
Having a nice Earth Day?

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fish

22 April 2015

The tears….so deliciously salty! Hey “jon” is this behavior an example of “San Francisco Values”?
http://freebeacon.com/culture/msnbcs-tax-delinquents-lecture-audience-on-taxes/

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Todd Juvinall

22 April 2015

“jon” Walt used it to ask you about noise, not fracking. And it appears a tongue and cheek. You are to easy to dupe.

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Jon

22 April 2015

Seems you cannot recognize the duper from the dupee.. Its funny when you and Walt go into your rambling essays connected to your long-held frustrations with the protection of our natural world. Walt obviously follows the myserious noise issue and somehow related it to my topic of fracking and earthquakes in Oklahoma. At least his reference to the Geysers creating little quakes deep in the Mayacamus Mountains is somewhat related to the topic, even though hardly anyone lives in that area except some high altitude vintners.

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Jon

22 April 2015

Yesterday came additional research out of SMU relating to Texas earthquake activity. On “faults that have not budged in hundreds of millions of years.
Link to the science included. Happy NOT to live in Tx or OK, or in Lake County for that matter.
http://thinkprogress.org/climate/2015/04/22/3649781/fracking-activity-earthquakes-texas-oklahoma/

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Todd Juvinall

22 April 2015

I heard the SMU crapola. There was no definitive word used (only maybe, etc.) to support their “claim” fracking causes EQ’s. My goodness “jon” you are simply out in the ozones.
Regarding your wild assertions. I would suggest you are so emotional on these nutty issues you are unreliable even in your links and your comprehension of them. You must do better research and please open your mind and resist being a sheeple.

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Jon

22 April 2015

Stories on major research studies, picked up by national media is out in the ozone and full of wild assertions. Sure there, Todd. There is lots more Earth Day reading for you today, including NOAA studies on the ocean’s 4-5 inch rise in the Northeast US, and 2014 being the hottest global year on record, since at least 1880.

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Steve Frisch

22 April 2015

Don’t you know Jon that any research or data that challenges the ideological position that earth is man dominion given by God to exploit, that market economies can solve all problems, or that we as a species can act any way other than through naked self interest, is to be denied, and any research or data that supports the position that you are full of crap is to be embraced?
Some guy I ran into on the street told me that earthquakes are cause by chem trails and I am much more likely to believe him than some pointed headed socialist scientist getting his money from government motivated by a secret plan to steal my precious bodily fluids.
Happy Earth Day!

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George Rebane

22 April 2015

jon 455pm – Please bask in the joy of your widely accepted references re the EQ issue. But I would ask you and NOAA, for that matter, to justify “the ocean’s 4-5 inch rise in the Northeast US”. Last time I looked, water flowed downhill. Save for storm surges, it’s hard to accept that water permanently bunches up (above its historical level) in one place on the Earth’s oceans. What particular part of you science education made you sanguine about accepting that report?

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Jon

22 April 2015

George, sea level rise story from February- UA and NOAA study covering 2 year period 2009-2010. Just picked it up today in my browser for some reason. You can evaluate the methodology and findings here.
http://research.noaa.gov/News/NewsArchive/LatestNews/TabId/684/ArtMID/1768/ArticleID/11044/Sea-level-spiked-for-two-years-from-New-York-to-Newfoundland.aspx
Happy Earth Day!

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fish

22 April 2015

Posted by: Steve Frisch | 22 April 2015 at 05:20 PM
See here’s the problem boys….the left has shoveled so much hyperbolic bilge over the past 50 or 60 years across so many subjects that even if you happen to “right” occasionally nobody is listening now.

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Steve Frisch

22 April 2015

Jon, permit me the first interdiction:
First, hot water is more voluminous than cold water, hence sea level may be uneven depending upon whether water temperature in one area relative to historic water temperatures in the same area changes.
Second, wind affect sea level, the dominant winds in a region affect the shape of the seas.
Finally, oceanic currents affect sea level rise, the energy in a current may ‘push’ water up relative to the land mass it affects.
Thus, although the water in your glass is even while you are sitting on your porch, if you put it in the microwave, blow on it, or get up and run around the yard your hand might get wet.

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Steve Frisch

22 April 2015

Ah, you were too fast for me, man!

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fish

22 April 2015

Posted by: Steve Frisch | 22 April 2015 at 05:35 PM
So Stevie…and correct me if I’m wrong…..this undoubtedly high dollar NOAA study failed to correct for a number of transient effects that you just rolled off in a minute or so?
Questionable science indeed.

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fish

22 April 2015

Jon, permit me the first interdiction
psssst Steve…….you shouldn’t encourage jeffy by addressing his other personalities as if they are “real” people. Your setting back his treatment.

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Jon

22 April 2015

Nice try fish. But waaay off the mark.

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Steve Frisch

22 April 2015

Fish, for all I know you are a 14 year old girl with an Ayn Rand fetish, so I will refer to people as they prefer to be referred to for the time being.
The fact that water ‘bunches up’ in certain portions of the ocean is pretty established science, and I am sure NOAA took that into account. I guess I could read the study but to what end?

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Todd Juvinall

22 April 2015

So what if water “bunches up” it has to be a greater volume of the substance to matter. Jeeze, is your scientific knowledge that thin? Sure, when there are storm surges from weather events you can get a rise in the tide but the proof is is their a greater amount of liquid water in the sea? If so, then you would be correct. But my guess as a retired contractor is you don’t have a clue. Just as “jon” keeps misreading all this you are simply not a scientist but a regurgitator of the information you receiver on the websites you agree with.

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Todd Juvinall

22 April 2015

Just saw Captain Kirk state this solution to the drought. I think he stole it from me. LOL! I say just Oregon is needed, he says Washington State.
http://www.king5.com/story/tech/science/environment/2015/04/20/william-shatner-washington-california-water-pipeline/26080985/

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Steve Frisch

22 April 2015

Todd:
“So what if water “bunches up” it has to be a greater volume of the substance to matter.”
Are you unclear about the relationship between the temperature of water and its volume?
I hear you still go back to grade school if you need to….after all you paid for it you might as well get the benefit of 6th grade science education.

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Jon

22 April 2015

Todd, on matters such as this- not being a scientist myself, I tend to go with the scientists with PhDs, and professional organizations such as NOAA, rather than retired contractors and random right wing provocateurs with seafood surnames. I can only imagine what a guy who follows strangesounds.com would have to say.

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Todd Juvinall

22 April 2015

SteveF, no need for me to go back I am certainly smarter than you on this subject. Use your head more then your smartass and maybe people will listen
“jon” we all read from many areas and I am much more attune to the various science papers and theories than you appear to be. You keep reading the DailyKos with SteveF and I’ll keep reading the various publications from all sources.

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Gregory

22 April 2015

Oceans have been rising since the end of the Little Ice Age. Who here are surprised by that?
Here’s a plot of sea levels since about 1880… where do natural variations stop their dominance and anthropogenic warming take over? How does one tell?

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fish

22 April 2015

Fish, for all I know you are a 14 year old girl with an Ayn Rand fetish, so I will refer to people as they prefer to be referred to for the time being.
WHO REVEALED MY REAL IDENTITY TO THE OPPOSITION…..?
Just having fun Steve….especially when it’s probably a guy who is shriekely obsessive over people posting with their real name but who has been busted posting under false names on numerous occasions.
Credit to you “jon”….you’ve managed to emulate that special someones unctuous sanctimony with a remarkable degree of fidelity.
And I never read any Rand…rumor has it she really could have used an editor.

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George Rebane

22 April 2015

SteveF’s 535pm explanation may have missed the mark since he described topical or episodic variations in sea levels. Jon’s 455pm cited a permanent or synoptic sea level rise in one particular region – “the ocean’s 4-5 inch rise in the Northeast US”. My 525pm sought the physics that would sustain such a permanent regional rise.
Jon’s 532pm citation confirms my point. The reported rise was only of a 1-2 year duration. Such variable current driven episodic variations do, of course, cause the lowering of sea levels elsewhere. The graph recording sea level variations since 1920 in the reference tells the tale. Such variations have been going on forever in earth’s history, and the shown spike is just the maximum observed in the short recorded history. It does not, nor does the article establish, that the spike was either a synoptic max (when a longer data record is considered) or caused by any other current/recent climate variations. The authors’ education should inform them not to spread alarums from such an observed maximum, for one undoubtedly had to occur sometime as the record lengthened. But I admit, it can cause a stir among the science-light readers.

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Gregory

22 April 2015

” My 525pm sought the physics that would sustain such a permanent regional rise.”
Reading the link provided, it was not permanent… just a short spike related to a change in the current. That ol’ dP/dt at work.

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Jon

22 April 2015

“we all read from many areas and I am much more attune to the various science papers and theories than you appear to be.”
T. Juvinall 2015
Todd, gotta give you credit where credit is due. An epic Juvinall. Great yucks had all around.

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Todd Juvinall

23 April 2015

I love it when the opposition cries uncle. Excellent “jon”. Luck next time.

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Steve Frisch

23 April 2015

Well now gentlemen the point that some portion of sea level rise in some places will be short term will be a true consolation to the city losing its aquifer as sea level rise in Florida would result in, its water treatment plant as many around the world are likely to do, or its airport or other coastal infrastructure.
The Todd level demonstration of that needs nothing more than a glass of water and a handful of ice.
Even more fun is how you guys will do and think anything to rationalize your position that there is no problem out there, no risk, and everything is just fine. Everything must be just fine otherwise we would need to question everything we believe.

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Todd Juvinall

23 April 2015

Please supply us with the scientific finding the sea levels are rising as you say in Florida. Of course you apparently don’t know that water freezes and expands and that warm waters in the equatorial zones heats and expands. Jeeze what a dunce SteveF!

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Todd Juvinall

23 April 2015

Here is the latest “scientific” findings on EQ’s from our own USGS. This is the first line in the article. You tell me where the “science” is?
“For the first time, the U.S. Geological Survey has unveiled a map of earthquakes thought to be triggered by human activity in the eastern and central United States.”
Thought to be triggered? Sheesh, this is the state of science now? We are never going to believe them if they can’t be definitive.
The rest here.
http://www.latimes.com/visuals/graphics/la-me-quake-frack-20150423-htmlstory.html

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Jon

23 April 2015

A few posts up you told us that you were “attune to the various scientific papers and theories.” Apparently not

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George Rebane

23 April 2015

StevenF 653am – please look at the data record plotted in Jon’s 532pm; it should serve as a calmative.

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Steve Frisch

23 April 2015

You could start here Todd, although I am sure this will be a “denied” source since it was done before Rick Scott was Governor of Florida.
http://www.dep.state.fl.us/oceanscouncil/reports/Climate_Change_and_Sea_Level_Rise.pdf

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Jon

23 April 2015

Todd, the data on man-made, fracking-related earthquakes is now too overwhelming to chalk up to chance. That’s part of science. You can ask your host how that works. At least now the public is more aware of this, and will be up to local governments and residents whether they want to live with the rumblings and potential danger.

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Steve Frisch

23 April 2015

Posted by: George Rebane | 23 April 2015 at 07:52 AM
I am not sure how the data presented acts a ‘calmative’ George, and I think you are the one who needs a calmative, BTW. Wether temporary of permanent (and I note you did not refute the permanent sea level rise increase occurring) the damage would be the same. No region could sustain a 1-2 year inundation without permanent damage.
The mounting scientific evidence that climate change is a risk to fixed infrastructure, natural systems that provide huge benefit to mankind, and investments in burning shit and dumping it for free into the atmosphere so challenges you philosophy that the free market is the best determinator of value that you would do ANYTHINg to deny the evidence.
We see that here every day. There is no science that does not support your position or case that can be made that does not fit your preconceived notions that is good enough for any of you.
What we are demanding from carbon emitters is simply that they pay their freight–they dump garbage that we all have to deal with they should pay for it and the consumers who use their products should pay for it concomitant to their level of use–I’m not sure why that is so difficult to understand. It would be no different if their manufacturing product generated solid waste. It is actually a free market principle.
You are the opposite of science. You might as well wipe your rear with PhD of yours.

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fish

23 April 2015

We see that here every day. There is no science that does not support your position or case that can be made that does not fit your preconceived notions that is good enough for any of you.
Hey look…. a politician said something…..it must be true.
Every data point that even hints at supporting your case is held up as the smoking gun. Anything that contradicts your faith is trumpeted as the work of the devil.
Practice your religion on your own dime.

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fish

23 April 2015

Looks like my gal (and jeffys) might be in trouble!

Clinton Foundation filings INCOMPLETE, LATE, and RIDDLED WITH IMPROPRIETIES…
Cash flowed as Russia pressed for control of uranium company…
WSJ: State Dept sat on panel that approved deal…
Bill’s Speaking Fees Dramatically Increased After Hillary Became Secretary…
Chelsea dodges…
ERRORS IN CHARITY TAX RETURNS…

Former Canadian defence minister claims governments hiding aliens…
Hey…how’d that last one get in there?

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George Rebane

23 April 2015

StevenF 816am – Steve, you are out of your depth; behave yourself.

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Steve Frisch

23 April 2015

Posted by: George Rebane | 23 April 2015 at 08:43 AM
Behave myself? What have I done that is bad behavior that is not equally engaged upon by others here?

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Todd Juvinall

23 April 2015

I looked at SteveF’s link to the Florida “studies” and could not find the “rise” in inches or feet of the ocean in Florida. Lots of bloviating though. Perhaps SteveF could cut and paste the precise words from the “study”?
Regarding “jon” and the “data” that man-made earthquakes are a fact. Please, did you even read those “studies”? They is no definitive proof only guesses because the pointy heads need something or someone to blame for naturally occurring activities. My goodness, there are thousands of earthquakes on the planet everyday and they occur much deeper then the deepest fracking. If you have a relative as I do that is a geologist, please ask him/her and you will be calmed and less hysterical.
I equate your hysteria to “global warming” errr, “climate disruption” err, global warming, err whatever floats your regulatory boat today. Jeeze you believers in all this crap puts American education back two centuries.

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