Rebane's Ruminations
March 2015
S M T W T F S
1234567
891011121314
15161718192021
22232425262728
293031  

ARCHIVES


OUR LINKS


YubaNet
White House Blog
Watts Up With That?
The Union
Sierra Thread
RL “Bob” Crabb
Barry Pruett Blog

George Rebane

Indianaโ€™s new law providing for the practice of religious freedom is not really a new law at all, but joined at the hip with bipartisan legislation โ€“ Religious Freedom Restoration Act – passed in 1993 and signed by President Clinton.  That law clarified and underlined the Constitutionโ€™s provision for not letting government define religious preferences and practices.  Indianaโ€™s legislation abets what 19 other states already have on their books.

But for me the real question is the freedom to practice what you believe and what is taught by your faith.  The Constitution guarantees such freedoms as long as they do not deny others the practice of their equally guaranteed freedoms.  And most certainly Indianaโ€™s law will not prevent its LGTB contingent from doing their thing that includes getting supportive services from numerous suppliers who are ready, willing, and able.


If I operate a legal business, I want to have the maximum latitude in choosing my suppliers, determining my inventory, hiring my workers, and servicing my customers.  I want my competition and customers to drive my business decisions, not the state.  And that includes deciding to whom I will sell or not.  I can see the state entering this equation only for national security considerations โ€“ e.g. if I invent a super weapon, I may not sell to anyone I choose.

Indianaโ€™s law will clearly allow business owners to discriminate among their potential customers based on their religious beliefs; to deny that is ludicrous.  But so what?  Businesses can already deny service for numerous less salutary reasons โ€“ โ€˜No shoes, no shirt, no service.โ€™  And that still is not the important point here.

Some on the Left argue that since a business is registered/permitted by the state, it is in some way a public utility and must cater to all of the public.  That argument leads directly to the removal of the last vestiges of private property.  And violating that side of the Bastiat Triangle (q.v.) first weakens and then collapses the remaining two โ€“ liberty and security in your person.  The state will then constructively own us lock, stock, and barrel โ€“ a sought after conclusion to the organization of society as held by many (most?) progressives.

So encourage the LGTB folks to buy their wedding cakes from the many who will gladly supply them.  And if some merchant refuses my patronage because I am a Christian, or an immigrant, or โ€ฆ, let them – I will go somewhere else.

Finally, Indiana did not have to pass their religious freedom law since it already exists in the US Code.  In the furtherance of statesโ€™ rights, all states should pass an amendment to their constitutions that simply allows them to practice prosecutorial discretion in the enforcement of any federal law they deem is not being adequately enforced by the federal government.  That would handle all such cases and many more (including border security and illegal aliens).  I submit this latter recommendation to the several states as part and parcel of the Rebane Doctrine.

[3apr15 update]  Some thoughts on what is a religion since the comment stream below seems to have trouble defining it in an acceptable manner that relates to the events most recently brought up in Indiana.  The subsequent discussion then has gone off the rails since people in this day and age seem to have no common understanding of what is a religion, especially of the kind that are considered legally when discussing church and state issues.

I am not interested in getting into a nitpicking contest with readers who insist on having special purpose, and/or exotic definitions of the term.  Instead the following offering hopefully covers the bases of what mainstream America thinks about when they are asked to consider a personโ€™s religion, as opposed to a recently fabricated, unique, and/or ad hoc belief system shared by one or a very few, and no one else.

A religion is a belief system that has the following attributes โ€“

1. Holds that a human being is transcendent in that his complete being exceeds the common space and time dimensions in which we observe him;

2. That there exists a higher being or intelligence that gave rise to the observable universe, a being (call it God) that is deserving of continuing recognition, supplication, and gratitude โ€“ in short, of being worshipped through both formal and informal proceedings;

3. That this higher being (God) has communicated with Man through natural acts, favored prophets, and even personal incarnations to establish its bona fides and to prescribe ways in which we would please and displease it.

4. That these communications have been gathered, disseminated, and passed on through succeeding generations in a canonical form referred (informally aka โ€˜scriptureโ€™) the content of which is attributed to God himself, or to God-inspired intermediaries;

5. That it contains a formal structure of communal worship (aka liturgy) during which the adherents of the religion gather to acknowledge their common beliefs, and give visible and unambiguous glory to their God.

6. That it contains certain specified communal procedures or acts that serve to define transitions in the relationship of its adherents to God and/or to each other within the blessings of their God.  These are known as sacraments โ€“ e.g. baptism, marriage, last rites, etc โ€“ and often serve to distinguish one religion from another.

7. Its validity does not lend itself to disproof by the accepted means of falsification as required of scientific knowledge, therefore religious knowledge is by definition unscientific.

We can add attributes to this list with the liability that it then becomes too confining, and rejects belief systems that are commonly acknowledged as being religions.  Number 2 above comes close to this when considered in the light of, say, Buddhism and Taoism.  The main point here is that this definition does not allow for Sam, Sally, and John to meet on Monday, spend the week cobbling together some of the above attributes, and on Friday announce that they are devoted adherents of their newly concocted religion which should then be given equal consideration in societyโ€™s resolution of religious issues.

Posted in , , , ,

143 responses to “Indiana practices religious freedom (updated 3apr15)”

  1. Todd Juvinall Avatar

    Apple just opened in Saudi Arabia where they chop off gay people’s heads. Patricia, what do you think of that? Apple’s boss is homosexual.

    Like

  2. Patricia Smith Avatar

    Sorry Gregory, the initiative to make it a capital offensefor being gay is all too real and there may not be anything we can do to stop it, but I’m sure if enough sick people voted for it, the courts would strike it down in a New York minute. Do you really think this was started by liberals just so they would have something to complain about????
    George, why is it OK for Christians to defend their “rights”, but not Muslims? Discrimination opens the door to hateful and violent acts and should not be tolerated by any group.
    BTW, nobody addressed the facts stated in the Daily Kos report about all the other things that are forbidden to Christians which makes the case for defending the religion a joke at best.

    Like

  3. George Rebane Avatar

    PatriciaS 737pm – Don’t recall anyone arguing against Muslims defending their rights. Is your assertion a red herring?
    And a general note to our progressive readers would point out that the current discussion and dissection of the notion of discrimination is truly nuanced and goes beyond the politically correct sound-bite understanding of the term, especially as used by the lamestream. If such debate proves too difficult, then that may be declared by a simple dismissive epithet upon departure.

    Like

  4. Scott Obermuller Avatar

    “the initiative to make it a capital offensefor being gay is all too real and there may not be anything we can do to stop it…”
    Well, that’s democracy for ya. Popular vote and all that.
    Since this ‘initiative’ is real, maybe you can tell us when it will appear on the ballot in Kali? Hmmm?
    Come to think of it, we do kill gays in this state. And females, too.
    Lots of ‘um. So now, Patricia, how do feel about living in this fine state? Want to leave? We kill gays here all the time. Complaints?

    Like

  5. fish Avatar
    fish

    Posted by: Patricia Smith | 31 March 2015 at 05:50 PM
    So if we are to allow Indiana to discriminate based on their religious beliefs, lets go all the way:

    Christ Jesus woman….spark up a fattie and chill! I swear you sound like Porkline in drag!
    Next…..unplug from the DailyKos (the Surgeon General has determined that exposure causes brain damage) and plan a move to Indiana….I see a huge market for you if you want to get into the wedding cake business!

    Like

  6. Bill Tozer Avatar
    Bill Tozer

    We have met the enemy and it is Connecticut and 18 other states. All Indiana is doing is joining the party with a Connecticut Yankee in King Arthur’s Court.
    http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2015/03/31/connecticut-gov-imposes-travel-ban-over-indianas-religious-freedom-law-despite/
    We don’t tell blacks they cannot eat at the diner anymore. Yet, having a custom cake made that is not on the menu is a different story. Having a large penis as a decoration on top of the wet dream cake might be the icing for some, yet it might cause some to feel repulsed or say “We reserve the right to refuse service to anyone.” Heck, I last saw that sign at a bowling alley.
    Telling a Muslim I want a custom made cake with a pig cornholing the Prophet and that the State says you have to do it is pushing the envelop. Like the Supreme Court said, “You know obscenity when you see it.” Some think sodomy is morally repulsive. To each his own. In this age of tolerance, some are being asked to codone if not celebrate various lifestyles. Tolerance is one thing, participating is another.
    This really takes the cake. It puts the icing on the cake. Oh, I love puns.
    Thankfully, the Supreme Court has held the freedom of religion scared mostly, right up there equal to freedom of speech. Trump card.

    Like

  7. Gregory Avatar
    Gregory

    No Pattie, it ain’t real until it’s legally drafted and signature gatherers get enough signatures. It’s just a publicity stunt. Enjoy the fantasy moral high ground while it lasts.
    If you want the issue to hang around, you’ll have to help them fund the signature gathering because only progressives want it to continue… put your money where your mouth is, Pat.

    Like

  8. fish Avatar
    fish

    OH NOES…….Gillespie is the payroll of the Kochtopus! Run away…run away!
    http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2015/04/01/everybody-s-lost-their-goddamn-mind-over-religious-freedom.html
    Whatever you may think of Jack Phillipsโ€™s refusal to bake a wedding cake for gay customers, thereโ€™s something as or more disturbing about the court ruling against the owner of Lakewood, Coloradoโ€™s Masterpiece Cakeshop. Not only was the baker forced to change his store policy, he and his staff were required to attend sensitivity training. That sounds like something out of China during the Cultural Revolution. It doesnโ€™t help that Phillips offered to make the original complainants any sort of item but a wedding cake.
    You proglodytes are completely in favor or authoritarianism…..as long as you are in authority!

    Like

  9. Scott Obermuller Avatar

    Hey – I read DK too! Well, not daily, but enough so that when folks like Patricia start spouting off I can spot the talking points a mile away.
    Hasn’t diminished my capacity a whit over the years no matter what the SG says. Sometimes DK actually is onto something true. Rarely, but it’s always good to keep tabs on the other side.
    But you can see the effect it has on some people. A guy in Kali puts up 200 bucks for a guerilla theater stunt and that proves that the gov of Indiana is a homophobic liar.
    We have actual hate mongers like Farrakhan saying some pretty nasty things about gays for years from his tax-exempt pulpit and the left just ignores it.

    Like

  10. fish Avatar
    fish

    We have actual hate mongers like Farrakhan saying some pretty nasty things about gays for years from his tax-exempt pulpit and the left just ignores it.
    Really have to keep up with the Proggie “Hierarchy of Victims” to know who will be called out for impolitic thoughts.
    Black still trumps gay.

    Like

  11. Brad C. Avatar
    Brad C.

    The governor of Arkansas explained it well. His own son petitioned the Gov to veto their version of the Religious Freedom Bill. The Gov said that the majority of younger conservatives do not support these types of what I am calling Bigot Freedom Bills. However, the over 50 year old conservatives tend to favor these bills. The Arkansas Gov will apparently make the smart business decision to veto that state’s bill in its present form.
    The Great Divide is alive and well within the Conservative Party. If they want to have a chance in ’16 they are going to have to figure out who they want to allow in their tent.

    Like

  12. Patricia Smith Avatar

    Scott O: Oh how you love to split hairs! Every initiative starts by filing the petition with the Attorney General. That has been done The process is underway unless the court rules it unconstitutional. I sincerely hope the citizens of this state are too enlightened to sign this hateful attempt to make being gay a capital offense. I guess the new definition of hysterical is anyone that disagrees with your points of view.
    Gregory: I love how you know the mind of progressives. Did you take a poll or what to determine that we want this initiative to go forward?
    Fish: As far as Daily Kos goes, did they write the Bible verses that were listed in the article? NO! All too many “Christians” do not follow the teachings of Christ and they put down those that do – like taking care of the sick and poor.
    And Bill, why don’t we ban blacks from eating at the diner counter anymore? Because it was wrong to single out people baseds on their skin color. That sort of discrimination led to unmentionable cruelty. When we allow any group to be discriminated against, we open the door to ugly behaviors. That is why I oppose the Indiana law (and all other states that make loopholes that allow discrimination).
    Now that Brother Ben is gone, you guys need a progressive foil to vent against.

    Like

  13. fish Avatar
    fish

    If businesses were in favor of it because they were afraid of losing conservative business you would be screeching the common lefty refrain…….greedy……corporate……antihuman….retrograde.
    Funny Brad how you guys are okay with greedy business decisions when a corporations best interests happen to align with your political positions.

    Like

  14. fish Avatar
    fish

    Posted by: Patricia Smith | 01 April 2015 at 10:21 AM
    You’ll forgive me if I don’t rely too heavily on analysis of Christian doctrine cherry picked by the DailyKos and filtered through another hysterical progressive.
    Now that Brother Ben is gone, you guys need a progressive foil to vent against.
    Try harder!

    Like

  15. Gregory Avatar
    Gregory

    It’s easy on this one, “Patricia”; progressives are the only ones hyperventilating. A classic manufactured scandal.

    Like

  16. Gregory Avatar
    Gregory

    I take back the scare quotes… this is apparently the same Patricia Smith who drove Measure S into the ground. Apologies, Pat.

    Like

  17. Paul Emery Avatar

    Does anyone want to attemptto define what a Religion is? It seems Religious Freedom Restoration depends on some kind of definition.

    Like

  18. Paul Emery Avatar

    Gregory
    this self induced Republican generated crisis has at lease one Governer breathing pretty intensively.
    “Mr. Hutchinson, a Republican, said he understood the divide in Arkansas and across the nation over the question of same-sex marriage and its impact on peopleโ€™s religious beliefs. His own son, Seth, he said, had asked him to veto the bill, which critics say could allow individuals and businesses to discriminate against gay men and lesbians.
    To ensure that the state is โ€œa place of tolerance,โ€ Mr. Hutchinson said, he was considering using an executive order that would seek to balance the โ€œcompeting constitutional obligationsโ€ if the legislature declined to make changes to the bill.”
    http://www.nytimes.com/2015/04/02/us/arkansas-indiana-religious-freedom-hutchinson-pence.html?_r=0

    Like

  19. fish Avatar
    fish

    Posted by: Paul Emery | 01 April 2015 at 11:35 AM
    Let us know what you come up with Paul.

    Like

  20. L Avatar
    L

    Brother Ben, gone?? (Jon Smith + Patti Smith) = Ben? Nah, Patti been around too long. (+) = 0! Maybe…

    Like

  21. Michael R. Kesti Avatar
    Michael R. Kesti

    Paul Emery 01Apr15 at 11:35 AM
    I’m reasonably certain that the IRS has definitions of what is required to qualify as a religion/church. Those definitions should either also apply to RFRA laws or new definitions that do apply to both may have to be created.
    Perhaps more to the point is definitions of the qualifying beliefs of qualifying religions that apply to RFRA laws.
    Oh, what a tangled web we create when we set out to over-legislate!

    Like

  22. Patricia Smith Avatar

    Gregory, being concerned about something is NOT the same as willing it to go forward. This progressive prays that the CA initiative never gets off the ground. It’s done enough damage just by fanning the flames of intolerance and bigotry.
    Fish, so it’s “cherry-picking” to quote nine verses from the bible that condemn customs modern society finds acceptable, but it’s OK to quote from one passage that condemns homosexulaity? Do you ever listen to yourself?
    I don’t know why so many conservatives denounce homosexuality (especially given the number of elected officials that have been caught in gay scandals). Relax, it’s not contagious. And I thought you were the guys that want to defend every personal freedom. If the behavior of your neighbor does not impact you in anyway- other than you don’t like it – walk away with the realization that it’s still your right to disagree.

    Like

  23. Gregory Avatar
    Gregory

    Pat, initiatives don’t get qualified for ballot status by themselves. No one wants this, no one thinks it is constitutional, no one thinks it could get the signatures to make it to the ballot, no one thinks it could win at the ballot box, if it won, no one thinks it would become law. From the start, this was merely a vehicle to institute a process that allows the state to throw out initiatives it doesn’t like.
    And, for the record, I am not a conservative, have never been a conservative, and have, since first voting in 1972, have never registered as a Republican, nor have I ever been a decline-to-state. By most Nolan Chart quizzes, my politics are left-libertarian.

    Like

  24. Don Bessee Avatar
    Don Bessee

    Gregory 1052 Yes that’s the one. She is now doing for the emerald growers and the aclu what she did for measure s. lol To be fair we did help loosen the lug nuts before the wheels fell off measure s! ๐Ÿ˜‰

    Like

  25. fish Avatar
    fish

    Fish, so it’s “cherry-picking” to quote nine verses from the bible that condemn customs modern society finds acceptable, but it’s OK to quote from one passage that condemns homosexulaity? Do you ever listen to yourself?
    I don’t know why so many conservatives denounce homosexuality (especially given the number of elected officials that have been caught in gay scandals). Relax, it’s not contagious. And I thought you were the guys that want to defend every personal freedom. If the behavior of your neighbor does not impact you in anyway- other than you don’t like it – walk away with the realization that it’s still your right to disagree.

    I’ve noticed that in picking up Bens mantle as the resident SJW here at Rebanes you’ve picked up at least one of his annoying habits……you can’t be bothered to read except in a cursory fashion what’s being said here. The debate isn’t about homosexuality at all…..it’s about using the force of government to compel someone to do something that he claims is against his faith. Would you be equally as enthusiastic to have the state compel a baker to bake a cake to celebrate the sacrifice of children to Moloch? Or a gay baker to (and I’m stealing this one) bake a cake that has “God Hates Fags” prominently embroidered in buttercream frosting?
    Relax, it’s not contagious.
    Well I should hope not as I’ll be going to Europe next summer on a tour led by my wifes gay cousin.
    And I thought you were the guys that want to defend every personal freedom.
    Just what personal freedoms are being denied Patricia. As I mentioned above the homosexuality issue has barely been mentioned at all and none of the posters has even hinted at denying the anonymous pair the right to marry.
    ….so it’s “cherry-picking” to quote nine verses from the bible that condemn customs modern society finds acceptable, but it’s OK to quote from one passage that condemns homosexulaity? Do you ever listen to yourself?
    Except nobody here is proposing legislation that would have any impact on any of those behaviors. It’s not for me to vet this guys particular flavor of Christianity. If he says that he can’t in good conscience bake a cake for a gay wedding than I’ll take him at his word and tell the happy couple to find another baker.

    Like

  26. Scott Obermuller Avatar

    Yeah – I do split hairs. Patricia claims there is an initiative in Kali and it turns out there is not. It’s one guy that’s slapped down 200 smackers and filled out some paperwork. Patricia might do a bit more reading on this blog to see that I disagree with folks all the time and rarely call them hysterical. The idea that this proposition has any chance whatever of making the ballot is hysteria, pure and simple. Likening the new law in Indiana to the Taliban is hysteria. Paul Emery’s
    idea that the new law will lead to the KKK kicking blacks out of businesses is hysteria. If Kamala Harris had simply done her job and kept her mouth shut, we wouldn’t even know about this guy. I think it would be interesting to find out how many Californians would sign the petition to put it on the ballot, don’t you? We slaughter tens of thousands of innocent human lives every year in this country and a good portion are homosexual. In many countries, parents kill their unborn because they learn they are female and therefore worthless. So it’s really not that big a leap to want to legalize killing gays that are older. I’d rather that we value human life a bit more, but that’s just my opinion. The state, in all it’s wisdom, feels differently. The bottom line is that we sanction the destruction of innocent human life already.
    “I don’t know why so many conservatives denounce homosexuality…”
    That’s not the issue. I don’t see why 2 gals that want to get married get the right to use the state to destroy a woman’s livelyhood. Why would they want to give their business to someone like that in the first place? Because they weren’t injured or actually interested in getting a wedding cake after all. They just wanted to destroy some one that didn’t cozy up to their idea of togetherness. They can put the word out through social media about the woman and let the public deal with it. I don’t care what folks do in bed. But I don’t like the idea that a private business can be forced to join into some kind of activity they hold an honest and deeply held conviction against. What if a guy that runs a print shop is asked to print hand bills for a NAMBLA meeting? That is a legal, homosexual group. Does he have to? Would you print the hand bills if it was your business? We aren’t talking about denying medical care or food at the store. As that wise sage from SoCal once said – “can’t we all just get along?”

    Like

  27. Paul Emery Avatar

    Still without a definition of “religion” we have nothing to talk about. Somedays I’m a Druid, somedays I’m a Diest and occasionally I’m a Buddhist but that’s usually too much work. It’s easy being a Christian because all you have to do is point to the Bible as Gods word and, as you know, the Bible contains justification for every form of human behavior.

    Like

  28. fish Avatar
    fish

    Posted by: Paul Emery | 01 April 2015 at 02:56 PM
    Well do you have your definition Paul? You listed three “religions” right off the top of your head and apparently did so with consulting reference material.
    What is the Paul Emery definition of Christianity?

    Like

  29. Brad C. Avatar
    Brad C.

    Fish,”Funny Brad how you guys are okay with greedy business decisions when a corporations best interests happen to align with your political positions.” – not exactly
    A corporation’s best interest would be to stay out of the fray and continue doing business as usual. Corporations stand to lose money by shunning states with lack of of tolerance toward other people’s non-Christian beliefs.
    So, corporations are showing that they are, at least in this case, trying to do the right thing by making a statement supporting tolerance.

    Like

  30. Gregory Avatar
    Gregory

    “I’ve noticed that in picking up Bens mantle as the resident SJW here at Rebanes you’ve picked up at least one of his annoying habits……you can’t be bothered to read except in a cursory fashion what’s being said here.”
    Arguing not over what is being said or written and instead arguing over what one thinks they’d say if they were being honest is an unfortunate habit among the weak minded of both the progressive and conservative persuasions, and the blogosphere’s quota for weak minded progressives has long been filled.

    Like

  31. Gregory Avatar
    Gregory

    “the Bible contains justification for every form of human behavior” -Paul
    … and the IPCC Assessment Reports contains links of every sort of weather to anthropogenic global warming. Hot? AGW. Cold? AGW. Wet? AGW. Dry? AGW. More storms? AGW. Fewer storms? AGW.
    Religions are like that.

    Like

  32. Paul Emery Avatar

    Definition of Christianity? There are so many variations I’d say whatever you determine are your personal needs. You can be a Pacifist or an aerial baby bomber (re “shock and awe”) and find scripture to justify your actions. It needs to somehow tie in the Bible as a guide.

    Like

  33. fish Avatar
    fish

    Posted by: Brad C. | 01 April 2015 at 03:18 PM
    But that’s not what they are doing at all Brad. The right of gays to marry has been decided in Indiana. What Apple, Salesforce, The State of California et al are doing is ratcheting up the pressure on Indiana for the right to be intolerant of the practice of someones faith.
    There is nothing stopping this couple from walking out and buying a lovely wedding cake at the gay friendly bakery next door.

    Like

  34. fish Avatar
    fish

    Posted by: Paul Emery | 01 April 2015 at 03:24 PM
    Fine then…..it would seem that under your definition the baker satisfies the requirement as a Christian to object to facilitating this ceremony on legitimate religious grounds.

    Like

  35. fish Avatar
    fish

    Posted by: Gregory | 01 April 2015 at 03:23 PM
    …and Gregory for the win!

    Like

  36. Paul Emery Avatar

    Yes Fish and herein is the problem. That conclusion can also be reacted about the White or Black or whatever racist. Therefore you can justify almost any form of behavior under the guise of religious freedom. How does an orderly society manage that contradiction.

    Like

  37. George Boardman Avatar

    Given the track record of organized religion in this country, I don’t think it’s a good idea to give religious folk license to discriminate in the name of their faith.
    This country endured years of social strife because of Protestant discrimination against Catholic immigrants. Mormons were hounded out the Midwest because of their practices and beliefs, and upstanding members of the Southern Baptist Convention were in the forefront of those trying to maintain segregation in the south after the Civil War.
    After all, the Southern Baptist Convention was created because southern Baptists got tired of northern Baptists telling them that good Christians don’t enslave people.
    Care to guess who is among the leaders of the effort to pass these religious freedom laws?

    Like

  38. fish Avatar
    fish

    Posted by: Paul Emery | 01 April 2015 at 03:42 PM
    I don’t know.
    I don’t believe that forcing a person to perform a service that he/she says they would prefer not to perform is going to be particularly helpful in the long term. I’ll propose the same hypothetical I proposed to Patricia.
    Following a line of thought similar to your earlier logic are you in favor of forcing a gay baker to bake and decorate a cake that says, “God Hates Fags – Happy Easter from the Westboro Baptist Church”? The gay baker is a similar public accommodation to the Christian baker and I would assume that the gay baker would find the message antithetical to their beliefs.
    Do you have the government threaten sanction in this instance?

    Like

  39. Todd Juvinall Avatar

    On the secular side of things. Would it be the same if a doctor was forced to perform an abortion if he was opposed? And there are penalties if he doesn’t?

    Like

  40. fish Avatar
    fish

    Posted by: George Boardman | 01 April 2015 at 03:55 PM
    Given the track record of organized religion in this country, I don’t think it’s a good idea to give religious folk license to discriminate in the name of their faith.

    Don’t know George….seems more like a question of “I won’t” vs. “You can’t”.

    Like

  41. Scott Obermuller Avatar

    No one in Indiana is being given the ‘right’ to discriminate against a protected group. You can’t say “I won’t serve you because you’re black/gay/crippled/whatever”. What it’s trying to do is protect some one from being forced to participate in an activity or service that is deeply offensive to their religious beliefs. Would you insist a Muslim caterer serve up a whole roast pig for your backyard luau? Are you going to run to the govt and file charges? What the hell happened to common sense and decency? I notice no one has touched the 2 examples brought up by fish and myself.
    from G Boardman:
    “Given the track record of organized religion in this country, I don’t think it’s a good idea to give religious folk license to discriminate in the name of their faith.”
    So I’m to be judged by what some one else did years or decades or centuries ago?
    I’d say given the track record of humanity, G Boardman shouldn’t be allowed to opine in public. That work for you, George?
    from P Emery:
    “Therefore you can justify almost any form of behavior under the guise of religious freedom.”
    Well folks do try that, but that doesn’t mean they get away with it. Folks try to justify all sorts of heinous behavior under the guise of all sorts of political and personal beliefs, but that doesn’t mean we don’t allow political and personal freedom.
    There are many long standing and well known activities that members of established religions are proscribed from condoning or participating in. That doesn’t include ‘anything’ or allow for some one to make up a new ‘religion’ to suit their situation.
    How about we try the old rule of ‘reverse the role’? If my wife and I had gone to a baker in 1972 and asked for a wedding cake and the baker had said something like: “get out of here you stupid, long haired, dope smoking hippies – I wouldn’t bake a cake for you if you paid me a thousand bucks!” Now – why would I be inclined to want to give this guy any money at all? Would we cry all night and consider jumping off a bridge?
    No – we’d just laugh and go down the street to the next baker or just bake our own cake. Is this something to go running to the govt about? Really?

    Like

  42. Michael R. Kesti Avatar
    Michael R. Kesti

    Scott Obermuller 01Apr15 06:37 PM
    This must be the most sensible commentary I have yet seen concerning this issue. If Scott had included blank lines between paragraphs it would be readable, too. ๐Ÿ˜Ž

    Like

  43. Jon Avatar
    Jon

    Love it when the right wing overplays its discriminatory hand and ends up stuttering and stammering, ie govs Pence and Hutch. Not a good day for the likes of ALEC. Knock off one or two points in the 2016 chances.

    Like

  44. Don Bessee Avatar
    Don Bessee

    Kesti channeling he whos name we do not speak again. It looks like you were able to read enough to render a judgment. I have an announcement. I have resigned as Executive Director of Smart Approaches to Marijuana of Northern California to accept an executive position with NORMAL.

    Like

  45. Todd Juvinall Avatar

    Jon represents the secular bigots against people of faith. These are interesting times as we all are seeing how the “tolerant” people like jon have become what they fought so hard against. Amazing.

    Like

  46. Paul Emery Avatar

    It’s a little late in the day for an April fool’s joke Don

    Like

  47. Michael R. Kesti Avatar
    Michael R. Kesti

    Don Bessee 01Apr15 10:12 PM
    Would that be a position in the National Organization for the Reform of Marijuana Laws that you have accepted, Don?

    Like

  48. Don Bessee Avatar
    Don Bessee

    Paul, its funny that you are such a sourpuss and very much like the tight ass Jesuit brothers who teach school. It is April 1st all day long brother! Sleep well. ๐Ÿ˜‰

    Like

  49. Bill Tozer Avatar
    Bill Tozer

    Well, the backlash continues.
    http://www.ncscooper.com/movie-franchise-considering-rename-to-nevada-county-jones/
    I will boycott the Final Four as a show of solidarity with my brethren from non-Indiana states. In fact, I won’t even utter the word Indians.

    Like

  50. George Boardman Avatar

    Taking advantage of his new-found freedom, the co-owner of an Indiana pizza parlor announced he will not cater gay weddings.
    Pizza? At a wedding? Of course, this is Indiana.

    Like

Leave a comment