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March 2015
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George Rebane

Indiana’s new law providing for the practice of religious freedom is not really a new law at all, but joined at the hip with bipartisan legislation – Religious Freedom Restoration Act – passed in 1993 and signed by President Clinton.  That law clarified and underlined the Constitution’s provision for not letting government define religious preferences and practices.  Indiana’s legislation abets what 19 other states already have on their books.

But for me the real question is the freedom to practice what you believe and what is taught by your faith.  The Constitution guarantees such freedoms as long as they do not deny others the practice of their equally guaranteed freedoms.  And most certainly Indiana’s law will not prevent its LGTB contingent from doing their thing that includes getting supportive services from numerous suppliers who are ready, willing, and able.


If I operate a legal business, I want to have the maximum latitude in choosing my suppliers, determining my inventory, hiring my workers, and servicing my customers.  I want my competition and customers to drive my business decisions, not the state.  And that includes deciding to whom I will sell or not.  I can see the state entering this equation only for national security considerations – e.g. if I invent a super weapon, I may not sell to anyone I choose.

Indiana’s law will clearly allow business owners to discriminate among their potential customers based on their religious beliefs; to deny that is ludicrous.  But so what?  Businesses can already deny service for numerous less salutary reasons – ‘No shoes, no shirt, no service.’  And that still is not the important point here.

Some on the Left argue that since a business is registered/permitted by the state, it is in some way a public utility and must cater to all of the public.  That argument leads directly to the removal of the last vestiges of private property.  And violating that side of the Bastiat Triangle (q.v.) first weakens and then collapses the remaining two – liberty and security in your person.  The state will then constructively own us lock, stock, and barrel – a sought after conclusion to the organization of society as held by many (most?) progressives.

So encourage the LGTB folks to buy their wedding cakes from the many who will gladly supply them.  And if some merchant refuses my patronage because I am a Christian, or an immigrant, or …, let them – I will go somewhere else.

Finally, Indiana did not have to pass their religious freedom law since it already exists in the US Code.  In the furtherance of states’ rights, all states should pass an amendment to their constitutions that simply allows them to practice prosecutorial discretion in the enforcement of any federal law they deem is not being adequately enforced by the federal government.  That would handle all such cases and many more (including border security and illegal aliens).  I submit this latter recommendation to the several states as part and parcel of the Rebane Doctrine.

[3apr15 update]  Some thoughts on what is a religion since the comment stream below seems to have trouble defining it in an acceptable manner that relates to the events most recently brought up in Indiana.  The subsequent discussion then has gone off the rails since people in this day and age seem to have no common understanding of what is a religion, especially of the kind that are considered legally when discussing church and state issues.

I am not interested in getting into a nitpicking contest with readers who insist on having special purpose, and/or exotic definitions of the term.  Instead the following offering hopefully covers the bases of what mainstream America thinks about when they are asked to consider a person’s religion, as opposed to a recently fabricated, unique, and/or ad hoc belief system shared by one or a very few, and no one else.

A religion is a belief system that has the following attributes –

1. Holds that a human being is transcendent in that his complete being exceeds the common space and time dimensions in which we observe him;

2. That there exists a higher being or intelligence that gave rise to the observable universe, a being (call it God) that is deserving of continuing recognition, supplication, and gratitude – in short, of being worshipped through both formal and informal proceedings;

3. That this higher being (God) has communicated with Man through natural acts, favored prophets, and even personal incarnations to establish its bona fides and to prescribe ways in which we would please and displease it.

4. That these communications have been gathered, disseminated, and passed on through succeeding generations in a canonical form referred (informally aka ‘scripture’) the content of which is attributed to God himself, or to God-inspired intermediaries;

5. That it contains a formal structure of communal worship (aka liturgy) during which the adherents of the religion gather to acknowledge their common beliefs, and give visible and unambiguous glory to their God.

6. That it contains certain specified communal procedures or acts that serve to define transitions in the relationship of its adherents to God and/or to each other within the blessings of their God.  These are known as sacraments – e.g. baptism, marriage, last rites, etc – and often serve to distinguish one religion from another.

7. Its validity does not lend itself to disproof by the accepted means of falsification as required of scientific knowledge, therefore religious knowledge is by definition unscientific.

We can add attributes to this list with the liability that it then becomes too confining, and rejects belief systems that are commonly acknowledged as being religions.  Number 2 above comes close to this when considered in the light of, say, Buddhism and Taoism.  The main point here is that this definition does not allow for Sam, Sally, and John to meet on Monday, spend the week cobbling together some of the above attributes, and on Friday announce that they are devoted adherents of their newly concocted religion which should then be given equal consideration in society’s resolution of religious issues.

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143 responses to “Indiana practices religious freedom (updated 3apr15)”

  1. fish Avatar
    fish

    So encourage the LGTB folks to buy their wedding cakes from the many who will gladly supply them. And if some merchant refuses my patronage because I am a Christian, or an immigrant, or …, let them – I will go somewhere else.
    …and in so doing you differentiate yourself from the shallow thinking horde of idiots that are rapidly acquiring critical mass in this country.

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  2. Keen Observer Avatar
    Keen Observer

    How about this gem…
    https://ca.news.yahoo.com/supreme-court-rejects-free-speech-appeal-over-cinco-142019486.html
    Only in America could we develop a scenario where the Flag would become an incendiary symbol.

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  3. Scott Obermuller Avatar

    Ah – the ‘Murcan flag deal.
    ‘But San Francisco-based Gordon and Rees LLP attorney Don Willenburg, lead counsel for the school district, said he was happy the previous court ruling was left standing because student violence is a “particularly salient concern in an era of rampant school violence.”‘
    Of course the boys wearing the American flag T shirts were not violent at all. Seems that a certain group with a certain accent at the school were violent but the left-wing weenies that run the school and the district haven’t got the balls to kick the violent ones out of school if they have that certain accent. No – the peaceful white kids got kicked out.
    I noticed that Tim Cook weighed in on Indiana’s new law. So – while in some states, middle class powerless folks are having their lives and lively hoods destroyed because they follow their faith, the uber-wealthy leader of one of the most powerful companies on earth boo hoos about how a-skeered he is of what he imagines the Indiana law is about. And the left predictably follows in line with the wealthy and powerful white guy. I noticed that Cook couldn’t actually name anything bad about Indiana’s new law – he just started spouting off about other state’s laws. Did Tim Cook throw his millions against Obama? Obama said he was against gay marriage. So, in 2008 Cook donated money to Obama.
    Just imagine if I was denied service somewhere… Oh wait, I have been.
    But I wasn’t enrolled in the proper victim class, so too bad for me and life goes on.

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  4. Paul Emery Avatar

    George
    Can you give me some ideas as to how a business would determine that someone is gay and therefore use that knowledge to deny service or services to a customer based on their religious inspiration. Could it be a rumor or suspicion based on behavior or clothing or do they need any reason at all. Can just a suspicion work for that purpose? Should they post on their door a notice saying they will not serve to a gay or LGTB customer vecause of religious reasons? Can tdy in your view refuse service to any non Christian such as a Buddist, Jew, agnostic, Moslem, Hindu etc…

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  5. Paul Emery Avatar

    Add Mormons to that list as well as well as Catholics who are regarded by some”Christians” as heathens and idol worshipers.

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  6. Scott Obermuller Avatar

    from Paul – “Can you give me some ideas as to how a business would determine that someone is gay….”
    Poor Paul – I guess he missed that class in school.

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  7. Paul Emery Avatar

    I guess I did miss that Scott Scott. What is your guide clothing, language, body language, rumors that ‘Freddie grabbed my ass in the restroom’ whatever. Give me some guidance here. For example if Michael Sam were to walk into your business would you know he was gay?

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  8. George Rebane Avatar

    PaulE 722pm – I don’t know Paul, but a couple of guys ordering a wedding cake for their nuptials may provide the merchant with a hint. But that’s not the point here. If it’s my business, I should be able to exercise my right to serve someone or not based on something I care to explain or keep to myself.
    And if my decision generates ill will among my other clients who then boycott me so as to cause my business to fail, so be it. It is the fate I have chosen or mistakenly stumbled upon. I am responsible.
    (couldn’t understand your last question, please restate)

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  9. fish Avatar
    fish

    Posted by: Paul Emery | 30 March 2015 at 07:22 PM
    I guess if they requested a wedding cake with two grooms/brides as cake toppers that might be a clue.
    I imagine that if a single man came in and commissioned a cake but didn’t specify any wedding accoutrement (the aforementioned cake topper) the baker could provide it without violating his/her religious sensibilities.
    More importantly though, why not just find another baker?

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  10. Scott Obermuller Avatar

    Paul – you’re lobbing softballs at me!
    “For example if Michael Sam were to walk into your business would you know he was gay?”
    Since he claims he is, I would assume he is. What’s your point?
    I wouldn’t treat him any differently than any body else. You have a problem with that?

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  11. Scott Obermuller Avatar

    What about folks that exercise their rights as citizens and legally donate money for a California ballot proposition and end up being fired for that act? Is that OK?
    Is it OK for whites to be thrown out of a public gathering based on their skin color?
    Is it OK for white school kids to be excluded from a public function at a tax payer supported school because of their skin color?

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  12. Gregory Avatar
    Gregory

    Paul, being asked to create a wedding cake that leaves nothing to be imagined is a real clue.
    You bet… if a Presbylutheran wants to discriminate against a Mormon or a Zoroastrian because their God is whispering in their ear to tell the heathen to begone, I’ve no problem with that. They’ll do that whether you want them to or not.
    Last I chatted with a non-Mormon scoutmaster, Mormons had pretty much taken over Scouts in NorCal already, and they don’t exactly discriminate again non Mormons… they just don’t cater to them. Out of sight, out of mind. Separate Mormon troops, separate summer camps. Separate and not quite equal… apparently really took off when Mormons became alarmed the BSA might cave over gay adult leaders. Hearsay, take it all with a grain of salt.

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  13. Paul Emery Avatar

    Fair enough Scott. Let me reword my response to your statement: “Poor Paul – I guess he missed that class in school.”
    So Scott if Michael Sam were to enter your business and you didn’t know who he was what are the things I missed in class that you are aware of that would lead you to believe he was Gay.

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  14. Paul Emery Avatar

    Golly gosh Todd! Where are your supporters forexecution by firing squad for MJ dealers to minors ? Crickets so far on this. Personally I support current laws on this.

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  15. Paul Emery Avatar

    RE: Gregory 08:10
    What is the difference between discrimination because of religion and nationality or race? The KKK was and still is in some cases a Christian religious cause. How about those that believe that Caucasian is Gods chosen race. Should they be able to exercise their spiritual inspiration by discriminating against nonwhite races?

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  16. Todd Juvinall Avatar

    If that is making you a jolly chap have at it. I think your easily amused. Too funny.
    On the other hot topic. When I was in high school there were always those you could not be in the showers with. We all knew and that was simply how it was.

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  17. Todd Juvinall Avatar

    Oh and Paul Emery, what is your opinion on “Black Power” and the Black Panthers?

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  18. Paul Emery Avatar

    What does that have to do with the questions at hand? Are you trying to distract attention from the fact that nobody supports your view on firing squads for MJ minor dealers.

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  19. Scott Obermuller Avatar

    “…that would lead you to believe he was Gay.”
    I dunno, Paul. Why would I care if his name was Gay?

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  20. Bill Tozer Avatar
    Bill Tozer

    “Don we now our gay apparel, tra, la-la-la, la-la lala.”
    http://www.newsmax.com/Newsfront/indiana-religious-freedom-obama-illinois/2015/03/29/id/635169/

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  21. Todd Juvinall Avatar

    As usual Paul Emery never answers our questions. But Paul, yes, death by firing squad for selling dope to minors is catching on.

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  22. Scott Obermuller Avatar

    It might be nice if some one who is opposed to the new law in Indiana could point out how it differs from the federal law already on the books or other similar laws in other states. All I hear is screaming and yelling, but no actual instances of anyone being harmed.
    We’ve had folks such as J Wright and L Farrakhan spewing racist hatred and hiding under a blanket called tax-exempt religion for decades.

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  23. George Rebane Avatar

    In a free country what is the real harm in allowing people to openly practice discriminatory behavior as they will? Others viewing their choices on associations and services provided may also ostracize them as they will by speaking out or shunning them for their unacceptable choices. That happens anyway, but in an environment today where we are no longer free to choose how we behave. The laws have become more constraining than the Founders had in mind.

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  24. fish Avatar
    fish

    Posted by: George Rebane | 31 March 2015 at 08:52 AM
    The goal of the left in all cases is to leave no alternatives. All are to behave as one.

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  25. Joe Koyote Avatar
    Joe Koyote

    Todd’s brother is named Gaylord, does that make him suspect?

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  26. fish Avatar
    fish

    Posted by: Joe Koyote | 31 March 2015 at 09:31 AM
    Why? Are you cruising?

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  27. Brad C. Avatar
    Brad C.

    Refusing to bake a cake for someone has nothing to do with religious freedom- it is good old fashioned discrimination. Last I heard, Americans were free to practice the religions of their choice.
    As has been said, if you don’t like a particular business for whatever reason (or the business does not like you), you are free to “vote with your feet”. Indiana is merely reaffirming itself as a fly-over state.

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  28. fish Avatar
    fish

    Posted by: Brad C. | 31 March 2015 at 09:38 AM
    So from the above post you are for or against the Indiana law Brad?

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  29. Todd Juvinall Avatar

    The Indiana law is simply a way to get to court for a religious organization if the government is forcing them to do something their religion forbids. So the cake will be baked and sold to Mohamed and the cake maker can go to court.
    Joe Koyote, my brother is straight so go cruise for someone else. You are a sick puppy.

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  30. Brad C. Avatar
    Brad C.

    Fish, I don’t know enough about the Indiana law to say whether I am fer -r- agin’ it. I heard up to 20 other states have something similar to the Indiana law. It sounds to me like some good ole boys at the state level are merely reaffirming themselves as God fearin’ Mid Westerners and trying to differentiate themselves from those wacky coastal populations.

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  31. fish Avatar
    fish

    Posted by: Brad C. | 31 March 2015 at 10:19 AM & 31 March 2015 at 09:38 AM
    Maybe I should rephrase.
    Based on your 9:38 which argument are you trying to make a) “Refusing to bake a cake for someone has nothing to do with religious freedom- it is good old fashioned discrimination”. or b) As has been said, if you don’t like a particular business for whatever reason (or the business does not like you), you are free to “vote with your feet”?

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  32. Brad C. Avatar
    Brad C.

    Fish, I would say that we should talk about whether refusing to do business with someone has anything to do with religious freedom. I don’t think it does. If I get attitude from business owners, or I think their prices are too high, or they put too much sweetener in my chai tea, or whatever …I just walk down to the next business and check them out.
    I think it was kind of bitchy of the gay folks who made a big deal over someone not willing to bake them a cake. All they needed to do was to flame the business on Yelp and post about it on Facebook and Twitter the hell out of it.

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  33. George Rebane Avatar

    Religions have had strictures on business – what kind, with whom, etc – for millennia. Forced violation of those strictures has always been seen as the denial of religious freedoms. Progressives have come to attack that reality for the same reason they oppose all things which differentiate human beings. Since politically we must be homogeneous, so must we be biologically and cognitively.
    Gov Mike Pence of Indiana has penned a good piece that further clarifies what the lamestream is trying to obfuscate about Indiana’s new law.
    http://www.wsj.com/articles/mike-pence-ensuring-religious-freedom-in-indiana-1427757799?mod=hp_opinion

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  34. fish Avatar
    fish

    Posted by: Brad C. | 31 March 2015 at 11:03 AM
    All they needed to do was to flame the business on Yelp and post about it on Facebook and Twitter the hell out of it.
    Maybe a little more than I would have done but in essence yes…..no compulsion via government (EEOC discrimination lawsuits) to perform a service but plenty of bad press and loss of business.

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  35. fish Avatar
    fish

    Posted by: Brad C. | 31 March 2015 at 11:03 AM
    All of the big three (religions) have proscriptions against homosexuality in some form or fashion within their doctrinal (it exists to varying degrees but can be found) texts. The majority of people seem to be Chinese Menu shoppers these days…a little from Column A a little from Column B…..American Catholics and birth control springs to mind. So I imagine that there are Christians who operate bakeries but don’t get completely wrapped around the axle about the issue. On those rare occasions when you those who believe strongly that homosexuality is a sin and who also bake cakes for a living (a small intersection I imagine).
    Why not just let them be and find another baker?

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  36. Michael R. Kesti Avatar
    Michael R. Kesti

    George Rebane 31Mar15 08:52 AM
    In a free country…
    But where is there a country whose citizens are all genuinely free?
    My libertarian self wants to agree with you, George, but I keep coming back to asking what if most or all of one group discriminates against another whose members don’t enjoy the same level of freedom. The example of Negros() in post-Civil War America is a fine example of this. Most were discriminated against and oppressed in many ways and had few, if any, alternatives to living in a world that very effectively supported that discrimination and oppression. Most now agree that this was wrong.
    If it legal to discriminate against groups that have options what is to stop oppression of those who lack options?
    (
    ) I genuinely don’t care whether anybody considers “Negro” to be archaic, oppressive, or politically incorrect.

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  37. George Rebane Avatar

    MichaelK 1144am – good points and questions. Agreed that no country is “genuinely free”, but that does not subtract from our efforts to strive for that objective.
    However, the examples of discrimination you cite, especially toward Negroes, are not of this conversation. To prevent an American citizen from voting or to cause him physical harm because of his skin color is not the kind of discrimination we are discussing here. Those are and were felonious infractions of federal laws already on the books. Let’s not confuse criminality with discrimination that only involves associations and service, especially of the kind for which substitutions are readily available.
    But your last question is the most important and difficult. Perhaps there will be nothing “to stop oppression (of the non-criminal kind) of those who lack options”. Then if some group, for whatever reason, is so shunned by EVERYONE else in a society, then it clearly indicates that the uniformly shunned group does not belong in that society, nor can it contribute to the society’s harmonious life. Should such shunning be prohibited at the point of a government gun? I think not.

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  38. fish Avatar
    fish

    If it legal to discriminate against groups that have options what is to stop oppression of those who lack options?
    Indeed…..and doesn’t it seem as though this is where efforts should be focused? On those who lack or have greatly restricted options. The person who commissioned this cake doesn’t fall into this category.

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  39. George Rebane Avatar

    fish 1236pm – But the seminal point here is the reason for “those who lack of have greatly diminished options.” There may be a valid reason for the overwhelming majority of a society for removing or greatly diminishing options to a minority – say, an Islamic cohort that desires to practice Sharia in its own closed enclaves. I can think of many cases wherein we don’t need to focus any efforts to provide or expand options for those lacking or so restricted. I suppose it all depends on the nature of what it is for which we should or not consider options.

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  40. fish Avatar
    fish

    Posted by: George Rebane | 31 March 2015 at 12:54 PM
    Maybe…but the Sharia example may not be the best one. At present a Sharia proceeding is little more than a cultural arbitration proceeding. It is only binding on those who submit to it (I know that in practice it’s probably not as clean as that). The jewish community has had similar practices for years and nobody seemed to get to worked up about. I think your point would be valid should someone try to exercise Sharia rights and procedures in a US court setting.
    It would have made for a less confusing discussion if Michael had provided one or two examples of where someone “had no other option”.

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  41. George Rebane Avatar

    fish 105pm – I wasn’t thinking of any formal proceedings at all. My point is that it should be possible for a citizen or like minded citizens to shun any one or group without getting the state involved. I used Sharia as an example (perhaps poor) of why some of the western culture (me included) would shun Muslims who practice or insist on practicing Sharia.

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  42. fish Avatar
    fish

    Posted by: George Rebane | 31 March 2015 at 01:37 PM
    Agreed.

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  43. Brad C. Avatar
    Brad C.

    Looks like many others are expressing their freedoms by voting with their feet and the Bible thumpers are getting a taste of their own medicine as Indiana gets shunned.

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  44. Patricia Smith Avatar

    So if we are to allow Indiana to discriminate based on their religious beliefs, lets go all the way:
    Due to my sincerely held religious beliefs, and in light of the RFRA, recently signed by our Dear Leader Pence, I will no longer doing business with the following persons; nor permitting them in my establishment:
    1.  Divorcees.  Matthew 19:9: “And I say to you: whoever divorces his wife, except for unchastity, and marries another, commits adultery.”
    2.  Anyone who has ever read their horoscope or called a psychic hotline.  Leviticus 20:6: “As for the person who turns to mediums and to spiritists, to play the harlot after them, I will also set My face against that person and will cut him off from among his people.”
    3.  Anyone with a tattoo.   Leviticus 19:28 “You shall not make any cuts in your body for the dead nor make any tattoo marks on yourselves: I am the Lord.”
    4.  Anyone born illegitimately.  Also, anyone who, back to ten generations, is descended from someone born illegitimately.  If you can not PROVE, using appropriate church sources, that ten generations of your family were born in wedlock, I will have to err on the side of caution and not serve you. Deuteronomy 23:2 “No one of illegitimate birth shall enter the assembly of the LORD; none of his descendants, even to the tenth generation, shall enter the assembly of the LORD.
    5.  Anyone who makes a practice of praying aloud, or in public.  Matthew 6:5-6  “When you pray, you are not to be like the hypocrites; for they love to stand and pray in the synagogues and on the street corners so that they may be seen by men. Truly I say to you, they have their reward in full. But you, when you pray, go into your inner room, close your door and pray to your Father who is in secret, and your Father who sees what is done in secret will reward you.”
    6.  Any woman with braided hair or gold jewelry.  Just to be on the safe side, NO jewelry at all.  1 Timothy 2:9 “Likewise, I want women to adorn themselves with proper clothing, modestly and discreetly, not with braided hair and gold or pearls or costly garments.”
    7.  Any man who has ever, by accident or not, had his genitals damaged.  (Current interpretation of this scripture is under debate, so just to be safe, if you’ve had a vesectomy, or testicular cancer, I can’t serve you.  I apologize for the inconvenience but I am worried for my soul.)  Deuteronomy 23:1 “A man whose testicles are crushed or whose penis is cut off may never join the assembly of the Lord.”
    8.  Please don’t bring your kids in if they have a bowl cut.  Leviticus 19:27 reads “You shall not round off the side-growth of your heads nor harm the edges of your beard.”
    For those of you complaining that some of these scriptures are from the Old Testament, and that Jesus came to redeem us from these laws, I refer you to Matthew 5:17-19, where Our Savior himself says:  “Do not think that I came to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I did not come to abolish but to fulfill. 18″For truly I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or stroke shall pass from the Law until all is accomplished.
    9. “Whoever then annuls one of the least of these commandments, and teaches others to do the same, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever keeps and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven”
    Again, I am sorry for the inconvenience.  It’s nothing personal, “love the sinner but hate the sin,” and all, but I simply can’t serve anyone who would blatantly disregard God’s sacred law in such a fashion.  
    Why on earth would you want to emulate the behavior of intolerant societies that you disdain by becoming the American Taliban?

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  45. Scott Obermuller Avatar

    Patricia shows us the typical gruberized citizen. She didn’t read the law or listen to the gov of Indiana. Instead, she goes off on an idiot rant based on Daily Kos talking points. “…becoming the American Taliban” – oh, yeah – they’re going to start chopping off peoples’ heads in Indiana. Get over yourself!
    Don’t want to do business with Indiana? Fine. Of course, you had better start paying a little more attention to those states and countries you do have business dealings with. Right? And remember that boycotts can run the other way. If you advocate one against Indiana now, don’t start boo-hooing about an entity you like being driven out of business by the same sword.

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  46. Paul Emery Avatar

    George
    As I’m sure you know the KKK considered themselves to be a Christian sect (and still do). Would this Indiana allow them to exercise their discretion if they owned a restaurant and an African American asked to be served?

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  47. Patricia Smith Avatar

    Scott, there is an initiative right here in CA that would make being gay a capital offense so what is the differance between a bullet to the head or chopping off a head?
    This is what discriination leads to. And yes, I did read the law and I have heard Gov. Pence and it’s all BS to hide the fact that this law is ill advised and not that different from Sharia law.

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  48. Gregory Avatar
    Gregory

    “Scott, there is an initiative right here in CA that would make being gay a capital offense so what is the differance between a bullet to the head or chopping off a head?”
    No, there’s a stunt being pulled to give the usual suspects an excuse to be indignant.
    If you want to see religious discrimination in practice, count the number of openly atheistic or agnostic members of Congress.

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  49. George Rebane Avatar

    ScottO 640pm – I am sad to say that I agree with your assessment, especially as confirmed by her 705pm comparing Indiana’s and the 19 states’ identical laws to Sharia law. The Great Divide is alive and cooking.
    PaulE 652pm – Nobody asked whether I agree with all of Gov Pence’s remarks about Indiana’s law and ‘discrimination’. The governor claims that his law would not permit such discrimination, and he may be right, especially after their anticipated follow-on ‘clarification’. Which will no doubt be convoluted beyond comprehension.
    According to my lights any (Christian or otherwise) business owner should be free to refuse service to anyone for any reason. There may have to be a law that overrides such prerogatives if human life or safety is involved. So I don’t agree with Pence’s attempt to draw a fine line between all the different and TBD kinds of religious reasons for refusing service, and the otherwise secular reasons. Keep it simple, and let the market reward or dun the business owner for his discriminatory actions.

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  50. Scott Obermuller Avatar

    No, Patricia – there is no initiative here in Kali to kill gays.
    Some one has paid 200 bucks and submitted the wording for one. It isn’t moving forward and probably never will. It has absolutely nothing to do with the new law in Indiana.
    Since you think Pence is lying and this is a ‘secret’ way to introduce Sharia Law to this country, there is no reasoning with you.
    You are hysterical. Literally. In countries with Sharia Law they do kill gays. Obama is kissing their butt right now and Tim Cook and other gays can hardly wait to do business with them.

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