Rebane's Ruminations
December 2014
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George Rebane

Reading the 6dec14 Union this morning, I noticed a spattering of feedback from conservatives and progressives that the editors had assembled.  Jobs and economic development have been elusive objectives for years in Nevada County.  Now that a ton of new environmental regulations are coming down the pike, it is interesting to see how both sides of our polarized politics are handling that situation.  From conservatives we hear the expected wails and gnashing of teeth at the next tranche of self-inflicted pain California has to endure from agencies like CARB expanding its own CEQA.

From progressives we see an ongoing stream of inanities that insist that this time additional regulations will really – honest Injun! - create jobs in the county and encourage economic development – all of the ‘sustainable’ kind of course.  These same people see solutions through attempts to help local contractors contort themselves even more to satisfy the new CEQA and other regulations, none of which have been shown to have any credible benefit on our environment and economy.  The great escape of California’s corporations attests otherwise.


However, these onerous new mandates do benefit the bureaucrats charged with their enforcement and the remora-like NGOs going along for the ride to snap up juicy scraps in the form of more programs to explain to the surviving businesses how to best bend their knee and bow down to Leviathan when the new regs hit.  Meanwhile, the rest of us – the onlookers and the disinterested – don’t seem to understand that the proper role of government in these times is to actively review and roll back the job killers and economic development dampeners issuing from outfits like CARB turning the AB32 screws on Californians.

I have long viewed progressivism as an awful social disease, and its transmitters, like unionized teachers and local running-dog NGOs, are as albatrosses that we have somehow become accustomed to wearing around our collective necks.  The disease, like leprosy, is painless as it removes productive functions from our communities.

On the national scene EPA is now gearing up to write and enforce new environmental laws under the guise of enforcing the existing Clean Air Act under its horribly written and much adjudicated Section III.  Obama’s directive to this long rogue agency to essentially outlaw coal was taken to task by no less of a personage than Professor Laurence Tribe of Harvard.  Professor Tribe was Obama’s constitutional law teacher when our president pretended to be a student at that institution.  According to the assessment of Tribe, “a titan of the liberal professoriate”, Obama has again overstepped the constitutional bounds of his office, and, had he paid tuition, would be due a full refund from Harvard because they didn’t teach him anything.

As gas prices begin to sink below $2/gal, it should amaze all of us that this progressive icon is now siding with companies like Peabody Energy to excoriate his former student for an “executive overreach” that specifically induces the EPA to violate the Fifth Amendment’s takings clause.  All of this will make no never mind to Team Obama and the EPA “determined to impose its climate agenda without having passed a single new act of Congress.”  Our only hope now lies with the new Republican congress, and even more with the courts (more here).

Finally, did anyone pick up that local police departments and America’s military are again running combat exercises in US cities this winter (RR reported on last year's exercises here).  CBS News in LA reports that the military has informed local authorities to expect combat helicopters to fly low over downtown and deploy Marines into a multi-block area nearby to conduct built-up area combat drills.  The military assures civilian authorities that these are not anti-terrorist maneuvers in anticipation of a massive terrorist invasion.  The LAPD’s lame explanation is that the exercises are intended “to ensure the military’s ability to operate in urban environments.”  Well no s#!t Red Ryder!

So the question again is, since these maneuvers are designed to confront and take out significant numbers of opponents, from which population segment do we get such significant numbers other than than American civilians who reside in the area?  From reading the CBS coverage of this, apparently for the lamestream that was one question too far (more here).

[10dec14 update]  Sen Feinstein’s CIA torture report and Dr Jonathon Gruber all on one day.  What to make of them?  Gruber’s congressional testimony was a mighty attempt to deny and walk back the amply recorded history of his seminal work on Obamacare and its subsequent interpretations at various conferences and seminars.  According to some, the MIT professor did an excellent version of an apologetic Forrest Gump.  But not to worry, his place as an accurate and truthful member of Team Obama and apologist for the means and methods of Obamunism is assured.  He will return to the Hill for another attempt at ‘Out damn spot!  Out, I say!’

About the purpose of DiFi’s $40M/5year torture report I am not sure.  The Left is taking it as another chapter of their growing gospel on Terriblis Americae.  Without having talked to anyone in the CIA, the main points made in the report are that torture doesn’t work, and that we did not benefit from using ‘enhanced interrogation techniques’ aka torture.  This does fly in the face of CIA’s published evidence, and begs the question of why torture has been used for millennia to pry secrets from sealed lips.  While its practice is not claimed to be 100% reliable, its effectiveness over the ages has been attested by the numerous means potential victims of torture have prepared themselves to die before being subjected to the pain and suffering they knew they could not reliably face (more here and here).

So again, why was that report released, and why at this time?

Posted in , , , , ,

115 responses to “Scattershots – 6dec14 (updated 10dec14)”

  1. Ben Emery Avatar
    Ben Emery

    That is right Fish, if we are to go after any nation it should have been Saudi Arabia who is the main funder and promoters of Wahhabism. Saudi Arabia wasn’t mentioned in all the outrage of radical islam by our government, why? In fact Saudi’s have been protected from our policies for the most part.
    This is where George and many here get it completely wrong. I never justify the violence of any party unless it is in self defense. They wrongly continue to focus on the symptom or result of radical islam or Wahhabism instead of the root causes. Since our over reaction and brutality those who have joined the side of extreme anti American rebels have skyrocketed.
    http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/saudi/analyses/wahhabism.html
    “Wahhabism’s explosive growth began in the 1970s when Saudi charities started funding Wahhabi schools (madrassas) and mosques from Islamabad to Culver City, California.”

    Like

  2. fish Avatar
    fish

    This is where George and many here get it completely wrong.
    Wrong perhaps about the direction of retaliation…completely correct about the anti-civilizational aspects of Islam. All the more reason to minimize our interactions with those regions and stop the importation of people from these areas into the United States.

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  3. Walt Avatar

    “Iraq was little more than a neocon pretext for resource theft!” Really??
    Just how much of that “free oil” did we get?
    Just what has been flowing into Fish’s pond? Runoff from a dope grow?

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  4. George Rebane Avatar

    BenE 920am – All right Ben, I’ll quit holding my breath. I guess this is your best shot at responding to my 834am.

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  5. fish Avatar
    fish

    Just how much of that “free oil” did we get?
    You and I Walt….? Well we get nothing and get stuck with the tax bills for the war. The oil leases went to the connected oil firms….some American….some British….pretty sure the Chinese got paid off as well!
    http://www.nytimes.com/2013/06/03/world/middleeast/china-reaps-biggest-benefits-of-iraq-oil-boom.html?pagewanted=1&_r=1&nl=todaysheadlines&emc=edit_th_20130603
    Remember Walt to be conservative or Libertarian means to remain skeptical of government regardless of who is running it at the time! Ben, for all his ideological faults at least gets this!
    It’s the nitwits like JoKe, Frisch and the jeffy who seem compelled to cheer for simply because it is!

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  6. Ben Emery Avatar
    Ben Emery

    George,
    What is the history of the western powers(United States) and the Middle East? For nearly 100 the west has been influencing politics in the region for corporate interests, which then gets morphed into western or US interests.
    Where you get my position wrong is I don’t think we leave them alone we actually work in a mutual relationship giving the people of the region things they need in return the west gets access to its oil. The problem is we have merged inexpensive energy with a war economy. No politician is willing to end jobs in their districts or states by eliminating the war economy. As Madison and Jefferson so fervently fought against a standing army in times of peace, the believed as do I it leads to no good. So instead of mutual relations on good faith and fair trade we do exactly what I have posted here since the beginning of my participation on RR. Usually I post it in a very short concise cartoon form that gets ridiculed so here is a more extensive interview on how it works. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nndAWd6w7xo
    Global Connection the Middle East
    http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/globalconnections/mideast/questions/uspolicy/

    Like

  7. fish Avatar
    fish

    ….and completely off topic but in my estimation such good news that I simply have to post it here now since we haven’t seen a fresh “sandbox” for awhile!
    http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation-now/2014/12/12/pope-francis-dogs-can-go-to-heaven/20296955/

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  8. Ben Emery Avatar
    Ben Emery

    To add one last thought on my 12 December 2014 at 09:43 AM.
    Imperialism whether by military or economic force is good for corporate profits and horrible for human rights, liberty, and freedom for all people around the globe. It creates unnecessary strife, which in turn fuels animosity towards the west by the people on the ground in these nations. This animosity is from the extreme inequality and suppression/ oppression it creates by the elite few that our governments have decided to pick the winners and losers(to use a favorite phrase of so called conservatives in a different context). In return for their guarantee of power and wealth these elite few suppress/ oppress the people of these nations.

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  9. George Rebane Avatar

    BenE 1009am – Your points are a good summary of an important worldview. We need to dissect this thread within the larger context of world order under a new post dedicated to the topic. Thanks for the thoughtful reply, the ball is in my court.

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  10. Walt Avatar

    Fish. It was in our national interest to do what we did war wise. Oil is what makes the world go round. Being held by the short and curries by the Middle East was never a good idea. Thank the ECO clan for allowing that to happen for all those years. ( NOPE can’t drill here) Thanks to some State and private land the price of oil has tanked, and OPEC is now in panic and on the ropes. Dictators around the world who have been profiting from us because they didn’t have the ECO clan nipping at their heals are also in deep doo doo.
    We didn’t go to war because we wanted to. We got forced into it, in more ways than one.
    Now that “O” and Co. tucked tail and ran, things are SO much better…. uh,,, right?
    Like it or not the U.S. is the World’s police force.(up until now)
    Today there is unchecked genocide, thanks to the “anti” war crowd. All that “talk’n” to our enemies has worked out great.

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  11. fish Avatar
    fish

    Like it or not the U.S. is the World’s police force.(up until now)
    Or until the US runs out of money! Which I believe should happen in mid 2020’s! Going to war frivolously is the most anti-conservative thing that a government can do……and we did it!
    Today there is unchecked genocide, thanks to the “anti” war crowd. All that “talk’n” to our enemies has worked out great.
    There wasn’t unchecked genocide prior to the war in Iraq. You can say what you want about Hussein and how he treated his citizenry but Iraq was far more functional then….and he had nothing to do with 9/11.
    So why was Iraq attacked?

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  12. George Rebane Avatar

    fish 1143am – Without arguing for the Iraq invasion (an orthogonal topic), the putative reasons Iraq was attacked by a US led coalition was that Hussein wanted to become the mid-east hegemon as he demonstrated in his war with Iran and his peremptory conquest of Kuwait as the first stepping stone down the Persian Gulf of nations ending with Saudi Arabia. That was beyond the destabilization of regional order that the west – especially the EU re reliable supply of oil, and US re protecting Israel – was willing to accept. Hope this helps.

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  13. fish Avatar
    fish

    I bet we wish we had that mideast hegemon right now! Things certainly would have been more stable at far lesser cost!
    George…we screwed the pooch…we leave the middle east a far more unstable and volatile region than before the war at a cost to the US Treasury of upward of 6 trillion dollars after full accounting. We didn’t find chemical or nuclear weapons components in amounts or of a type that justified the effort and now we seem to be stuck with this “tar-baby” in perpetuity.

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  14. fish Avatar
    fish

    No lefty political hack…former Lieutenant General William Odom (and former head of the NSA) :
    “The invasion of Iraq may well turn out to be the greatest strategic disaster in American history.”[4]
    History seems to be justifying his claim!

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  15. George Rebane Avatar

    fish 1242pm+ – Well, you may be right, but you first have to describe your version of things “more stable at far lesser cost” with Sadam as hegemon. And one could argue the same for letting Hitler and Stalin stabilize Europe according to their designs. We could easily have come to a very profitable rapprochement with Adolph who really had no desire to extend his Lebensraum across the Atlantic, but did know that Germany had to vanquish the USSR to his east across a very flat European plain. Watching them fight it out would have been cheaper, since we really did have to whump the Japanese. Oh well 😉
    Re Odom’s assessment; history informs us on a longer term and has not yet had a chance to kick in on our recent Mideast escapades.

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  16. Ben Emery Avatar
    Ben Emery

    Walt,
    Anti War Crowd have nothing to do with “unchecked genocide” but rather they were trying to stop the events that have now led to the upheaval in the region.
    Make no mistake the US Pentagon, Joint Chiefs of Staff, US War machine, and US corporate interests aren’t victims of being the global police. They in fact seek out that power and control to be able to shape and mold the world to their liking. The true victims in this hegemony are working stiffs just like you and I who are basically powerless against the powers that be that only view those like us as obstacles or annoyances that need to be manipulated or suppressed. Instability is a byproduct that gives them justification to do the things they do. If puppet regimes continue their doctrine there is no problem and actual will get US support, much like Saudi Arabia or Israel receives despite the dismal human rights record and their absolute oppressive form of governance towards those who oppose the establishment of their nation governments. Our intervention in the middle east was practiced first with our banana republics of the late 19th and early 20th century policies regarding the America’s and West Indies.
    What happened was the easy oil on US soil dried up in the 1970’s nothing more. That is when we decided to go into global oil tyrant business. Yes that was during the Nixon years when the oil crisis happened, which was connected with Nixon taking the US off gold standard and moving it us to petro/ dollar standard. As we inserted ourselves around the world strategically to oppose communism it wasn’t mistake that many of these battles were focused on resources.
    So as we in the US could no longer support our oil consumption we had to infect other regions of the world. This is perfect example of cancer, the US oil consumption and the West’s version of capitalism is a cancer upon the global body. Without homeostasis we will in fact be the actual causation of instinction of millions of species including our own.
    Online Medical-Dictionary
    Cancer- Cancer is not just one disease, but a large group of almost 100 diseases. Its two main characteristics are uncontrolled growth of the cells in the human body and the ability of these cells to migrate from the original site and spread to distant sites. If the spread is not controlled, cancer can result in death.

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  17. fish Avatar
    fish

    Posted by: George Rebane | 12 December 2014 at 01:23 PM
    Indeed, history does require a longer interval over which a fair appraisal can be made!
    Might have been interesting to watch Adolph and Uncle Joe slug it out for a while…..since the Soviets did a significant percentage of the heavy lifting in WWII I suspect things would have played out similarly. And I do acknowledge that the Sovs were the “existential” threat and that engaging them was the right course of action.
    This nonsense in the desert is, in my judgement, a regrettable and expensive mistake!

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  18. Walt Avatar

    Now come on Fish, Have you not been paying attention to facts in the news? Chem weapons had been found, and the powers that be deemed them “classified” We have Gulf Vets suffering from chemical weapons exposure. Now called “Gulf war syndrome”.
    When I first rented my (now gone) house to a couple, the male significant other was suffering from the affects of radiation exposer.
    Maybe you should educate yourself to some of the people who were there, and not rely solely on what the media feeds ya’.
    One of the guys I work with and known for many years IS a Gulf war Vet. He has also said otherwise to the claim of “no WMDs”.
    Now this from just a few months ago.
    http://www.usnews.com/opinion/articles/2014/10/16/new-york-times-reports-wmd-found-in-iraq
    Don’t forget the reports of Iraqi convoys to Syria just before the start of the “war”.
    Plenty of the crap is now well known there. ( and used without repercussions)
    Today we have the rise of ISIS because of the stupidity of “O” and Co.
    Anyone believing dropping a few bombs and shooting a few missiles is the answer are fools.
    Who has that Iraq oil now? ISIS. The only heads rolling over it are Westerner’s foolish enough to be there.

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  19. fish Avatar
    fish

    Walt,
    The stuff they found was insignificant relative to what was described in the lead up to the war! Leftovers from their war with Iran mostly I imagine!
    The paragraph that I find most telling:
    The weapons were not part of massive, active stockpiles that the United States set out to destroy by waging a war that would last eight years, take thousands of lives and leave Iraq in chaos. They were “remnants of long-abandoned programs, built in close collaboration with the West,” Mr. Chivers writes.
    Form NY Times blogs – http://op-talk.blogs.nytimes.com/2014/10/17/who-was-right-about-w-m-d-s-in-iraq/
    Plenty of arguments on both sides though! And Walt I am in a position to hear about these things from people who went there after the initial operations. Everybody I knew who participated in these searches said nothing of significance was discovered.
    If it’s any consolation Walt the US is ramping up actions in Iraq again!

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  20. Walt Avatar

    Not with “O” calling the shots. More worthless lines in the sand. HELL! Israel gets attacked and gets blamed for it by “O” and Co.
    And on the home front, The some Ferguson protesters are suing the cops for using tear gas when they tried to stop the violence. And it’s being reported that some LIB judge is siding with them. Yup,, let them burn other people’s property and businesses.. That’s what insurance is for.

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  21. Paul Emery Avatar

    Walt
    I guess we have to go back to Rumsfeldt to straighten this out once again (WMD’s). What more do you need?
    “However, intelligence reports – now shown to have been false – that Iraq possessed so-called WMDs was the main reason for going in, Rumfeld said.
    “No question it was the big one,” he said. Asked if the United States would not have invaded if the administration didn’t believe Iraq had the weapons of mass destruction, Rumsfeld said: “I think that’s probably right.”
    He criticized the source known as “Curveball” – an Iraqi defector who admitted his claims that Iraq possessed WMDs were false – but stopped short of condemning the U.S. intelligence community.”
    http://politicalticker.blogs.cnn.com/2011/02/20/rumsfeld-wmds-werent-only-reason-for-war-in-iraq/

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  22. Walt Avatar

    Whatever.. At least when the war was “over*” the streets of Baghdad were safer than the streets of Chicago. ( at least until “O” showed up)
    We could also visit Egypt without much fear. Well,, not today. Thanks to “O” and Co. an American is a target just about anywhere in the World these days. Hell! We even trade top Terrorists for traitors. Illegals have more rights than citizens. Before ya’ know it “O” will give them the right to vote, with the excuse that “our laws effect them. They should have a say in that.”
    And a little news on the IRS attacks on us Conservatives. ( Remember that?)
    http://www.breitbart.com/Big-Government/2014/12/11/Report-Lois-Lerner-Emails-Show-Obama-s-Justice-Department-Assisted-IRS-to-Target-Conservative-Groups
    Nixon was impeached for less. But “O” and Co. gets a pass.

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  23. Paul Emery Avatar

    Walt
    The war was over in 08′ ? Really?
    This is one of many incidents.
    http://www.nytimes.com/2008/09/29/world/middleeast/29iraq.html?_r=0
    BAGHDAD — Five bomb attacks struck Baghdad on Sunday, three of them aimed at civilians who were out holiday shopping and strolling. Security sources said at least 27 people had been killed and 84 wounded.

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  24. Ben Emery Avatar
    Ben Emery

    Walt,
    Continuing to defend this invasion/ occupation makes you look foolish.
    Ties to al qaeda- were none
    Stockpiles of WMD’s and WMD manufacturing program- every investigation found there was none. In the last couple of years some remnants of a very old and non functional weapons were found. Not like the Stockpiles and weapon program promised and were supposedly known about their whereabouts.
    Saddam was threat to US and Neighbors- both have been proven to be false
    Iraq and 9/11 were connected- No evidence that there was any connection
    Wanted to liberate Iraqi people- actually reversed governance back to pre secular years of extreme sectarian violence and segregation.
    I used to have all the quotes from everybody in his administration lying about these issues and it was in the dozens from each person Bush, Cheney, Rice, Rumsfeld, and Wolfowitz along with the right wing echo chamber repeating these lies over and over for months.

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  25. Ben Emery Avatar
    Ben Emery

    Walt,
    I spent 8 months in 2010 campaigning against the Democrats and Obama policies. 3 debates/ forums, 50 events, hundreds of tv commercials, radio interviews, ect….
    So trying to get me painted in a corner trying to defend the Democrats or Obama doesn’t work.

    Like

  26. Walt Avatar

    Paul.. Your sure confused. Those streets were safer when Bush was still in office. They went to Hell when “O” got his way. Yup.. the Middle East is in GREAT shape with “O”‘s foreign policy.(or lack there of.)
    Sure Ben,, All the allied powers came to the same consultation as we did. Their intelligence agreed with ours. So go blame Saddam for bluffing. Go read his comments that are on record. He didn’t think we would follow through because of the anti war pussys.
    ( the second time around)
    BTW hear of ISIS cutting the heads off children because they were Christians? All because they would’t convert to Islam. You know,, that religion of peace?
    So Ben,, what’s your answer to dealing with the vermin of the world?

    Like

  27. Ben Emery Avatar
    Ben Emery

    My solution has been stated on RR many times and I don’t want to waste my time trying to convince somebody who has no interest such as yourself.

    Like

  28. fish Avatar
    fish

    BTW hear of ISIS cutting the heads off children because they were Christians? All because they would’t convert to Islam. You know,, that religion of peace?
    So Ben,, what’s your answer to dealing with the vermin of the world?

    I won’t answer for Ben as I’m sure our answers are going to be miles apart. But Walt I’d keep them out. No immigration from muslim countries…student VISAs that came with 20 year prison sentences if you overstayed after you complete your education….Strict control of Muslims from Europe (and other locations) that included background checks that went 30 years into your past and at the investigatees expense!
    What goes on in the middle east should stay in the middle east! If they want to lop off heads…..sorry….not our problem. If they want to machine gun syrian deserters over burial trenches….that sucks…..let China fix it. Time for the US to fix the US…..let the rest of the world work on the middle east for a while!

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  29. Paul Emery Avatar

    Walt writes ” Those streets were safer when Bush was still in office. ”
    As of mid-November 2006, there were approximately 152,000 US troops deployed to Iraq. Do you contend we should still have that level of deployment of US troops in Iraq? Obam,a brought our boys home.

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  30. Todd Juvinall Avatar

    Yes but only if we take the oil.

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  31. George Rebane Avatar

    It is amusing to me that in this comment stream no one has picked up on the resumption of urban military exercises denied as being anti-terror training without giving an alternative explanation. But boy, is it fun to run around the old ‘Obama bringing our boys home’ barn and the everlasting coulda/shoulda/wouldas surrounding that. Why not also revisit the WMD arguments once more to present a complete reprise? Perfect!

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  32. Paul Emery Avatar

    Well George it seemed appropriate to respond to Walts gooey about how great Iraq was when the Scrub was President. Todd is a Colonialist, totally 19th Century on this one-“Yes but only if we take the oil. “

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  33. fish Avatar
    fish

    It is amusing to me that in this comment stream no one has picked up on the resumption of urban military exercises denied as being anti-terror training without giving an alternative explanation.
    It seems that at least twice yearly Drudge positively hums with the “Domestic Urban Warfare” meme. Why should 2014 be any different?

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  34. Ben Emery Avatar
    Ben Emery

    Walt,
    You can’t handle my strategy in things like war because they make you look like a coward. I will say this, unless specifically targeted in an act of war the US does not have any business or authority to intervene in foreign conflicts. The only justifiable war is a war of defense. The way forward is to use US Military funding in humanitarian actions empowering the people. A Marshal plan that uses local resources, labor, and businesses. Let the people have investment in their nation and they will fight to keep their freedoms/ liberties from authoritarian policies that are implemented to take those very things from everyday people. These are the teachings of Jesus, Buddha, ect…. The strongest people are those who don’t give into fear and violence. Those who have the conviction and principle to be able to set their differences aside to work out deals that benefits all the people not just a few in powerful positions. The way it works now is a small few profit and benefit, which is a strategy to keep average people down by propaganda convincing us that we are enemies.

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  35. Todd Juvinall Avatar

    What a hoot! Paul Emery and his lefty band of renown were always claiming we went into Iraq for the oil when as we have seen that was untrue. Yet they, Paul Emery included never retract their BS on that and come full circle to the WMD’s! My goodness the left is so predictable aren’t they? Anyway, I am all for taking payments for our country if we go save their asses again. That goes for any country. At least we should take enough for our expenses. If I was a colonialist I would suggest we keep the country as a vassal state, but since I am not, Paul Emery is opnce again putting words in others mouths. He cracks me up.

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  36. George Rebane Avatar

    fish 920am – Am not familiar with nor care about Drudge’s positive hum about this or that. But I am aware of the ongoing stream of unexplained ‘urban warfare’ exercises conducted over our cities during the last few years, and think that the latest schedule of these by the military and local constabularies is worth noting, along with an attempt to provide plausible purposes for their continued conduct. For the lamestream this again seems to be a question too far. And maybe they’re right, because noting the lack of interest right-leaning RR readers have about these goings on, combined with the expected silence from the Left, no one really cares. Are the sheeple lulled and comfortable, or what? Harbingers of ‘Arbeit Macht Frei’?

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  37. George Rebane Avatar

    BenE 952am – I understand that your desired plan forward involves beating most of our swords into Marshall Plans (aka food stamps for the poor nations). And then we will be allowed to pursue global commerce unhampered, or better yet, left in peace to stick to our own knitting within our borders. And all over the world, ten thousand flowers will bloom. Is that an accurate summary of your vision?

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  38. Ben Emery Avatar
    Ben Emery

    George,
    In WWII where the Marshal Plan followed we were fighting in a brutal war Germany, Italy, and Japan among other players who didn’t fully declare the position but were perfectly clear what side of the battle they were on.
    Are Germany, Italy, or Japan our enemies today or are they for all intents and purposes our allies? We have been dumping resources (money, material, environmental and infrastructure destruction, and human lives) down a bottomless pit in the middle east for decades while losing our humanity and bankrupting our nation in the process. Which policy seems to have worked better?
    I deal with reality.

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  39. Joe Koyote Avatar
    Joe Koyote

    ” claiming we went into Iraq for the oil when as we have seen that was untrue. ” According to that righty Alan Greenspan anyone who doesn’t think Iraq was about oil is a fool.

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  40. George Rebane Avatar

    BenE 1039am – OK, then let’s deal with the “reality” upon which your Marshall Plan template is drawn. As a student of history and observer of current events, it then seems to me that we’re in the (albeit to date prosecuted inefficiently) phase of first beating the shit out of countries supportive of radical Muslims declaring their intent to make the world Islam and killing all infidels in the process. To follow your reality scenario, the Marshall Plan phase will then kick in as soon as the ragheads unconditionally sue for peace.
    I’m for that, and especially, in the interval, for making the kick-ass phase more economical and effective. I’m hopeful and glad that we understand this part of your reality-based geostrategic plan forward.

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  41. Todd Juvinall Avatar

    Please JoeK, tell us you proof to the USA getting the oil from Iraq. I and provably all of the rest would like to see and read those facts. Don’t be a typical liberal, give us the proof not the yap.

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  42. fish Avatar
    fish

    Posted by: George Rebane | 13 December 2014 at 10:18 AM
    Okay…..try not to let it ruin your holidays.
    Posted by: Ben Emery | 13 December 2014 at 10:39 AM
    I deal with reality.

    Now that is funny!

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  43. Ben Emery Avatar
    Ben Emery

    Goerge,
    The problem with your analysis is we are Germany, Italy, and Japan in our self perceived “war against terror”. We are the ones who have been the aggressors and invaded/ occupied sovereign nations, tortured, suspended due process, and basically reeked havoc in the region not the other way around. This is where you detach yourself from the reality of the situation because you want or have to believe the US is the just player. Dehumanizing the “enemy” with labeling them ragheads is a propaganda tool that has been used since state sponsored warfare began. It allows us to see the “enemy” as less than human therefore alright to kill and destroy their ability to survive without great hardships. The average Muslim wants to earn a living, have enough food/ water, have medical care when needed, shelter, and education and better life for their children. Every culture average people want these same things. This is why I am anti war because it is average people sent off to do the killing not those who profit or benefit from such policies.
    The mistake you continue to make is falsely claiming that those who agree with my opinion believe we will all live in kumbaya where no disagreement will exist. This is another propaganda tool. Disagreement will always. How we deal with the disagreements will change.

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  44. George Rebane Avatar

    BenE 1213pm – Germany, Italy, and Japan initiated the Marshall Plan to help rebuild what countries, US, France, and GB??? Your ‘reality’ has morphed into something that to me seems surreal. Back to square one.

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  45. Ben Emery Avatar
    Ben Emery

    George,
    What are you talking about? The Marshal Plan was put in place to help the devastated regions from the war to rebuild. Much like the New Deal there were many complimentary policies/ acts put in place along with it, which included The Economic Cooperation Act that included aid to Japan.
    You seem to like playing games with revisionist history by creating straw man arguments. The Marshal Plan and all the policies/ acts that followed were all imperfect and had many flaws but what their purpose and what they created were overall positives, that is the point I am making. You can continue to play games but I will continue to live in reality and admit there are no perfect ideas or implementations due to the complex nature of society and cultures across the planet.
    Here is a more in depth historical summary of what took place post WWII in Western Europe.
    Excerpt
    “The purpose of the Marshall Plan—as the program came to be called—was not only to support economic recovery in Western Europe, but also to create a bulwark against Communism by drawing participating states into the United States’ economic orbit.”
    https://history.state.gov/milestones/1945-1952/marshall-plan

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  46. George Rebane Avatar

    BenE 1239pm – Could not understand your “…we are Germany, Italy, and Japan in our self perceived “war against terror”. We are the ones who have been the aggressors and invaded/ occupied sovereign nations, tortured, suspended due process, and basically reeked havoc in the region not the other way around.” And then our being Germany, Italy, and Japan …, it is then we who should also start the Marshall Plan against our current enemies without first defeating them to unconditional submission – something does not compute.
    Your dalliance with history seems to be a haphazard version of the history that I was taught and witnessed. But, of course, that has been our perennial problem – you and I subscribe to totally different versions of the events that brought us to the present.

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  47. Ben Emery Avatar
    Ben Emery

    How would you describe the US force upon other sovereign nations of the world both economically and or militarily over the last century or so? Excluding the last war we actually had a declaration for, WWII, which was forced upon us with Germany and Italy declaring war officially in December 1941 along with Japan dropping bombs on US military facility in Hawaii. That was an act of war. The US drops bombs on sovereign nations since that time and for some reason our government doesn’t consider it an act of war.

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  48. Ben Emery Avatar
    Ben Emery

    Todd,
    Dick Cheney Secret Energy Task Force meeting that took place in March of 2001 was dividing up Iraqi Oil Fields and possible companies who would control specific wells. When the meeting information was made public they redacted the time spent on the Iraq Oil Fields. Judicial Watch, a right leaning government watch dog group along with Sierra Club took the US Government to court to have those records released and they won.
    US interests are corporate interests. The US didn’t nationalize Iraqi oil they just illegally invaded/ occupied, destroyed the infrastructure, used banned weaponry, tortured people, killed hundreds of thousands and indirectly are responsible for over a million deaths, injured even more, displaced 1/4 of the total population of Iraq, and used US Military to secure and to give Western Oil Companies control of the oil within Iraqi borders.
    http://www.justforeignpolicy.org/iraq
    Many of the old links that had actual maps and evidence have been scrubbed from the internet. So here is a good article laying it all out.
    Iraq Oil Deals Fulfill Cheney’s Goals
    https://consortiumnews.com/2008/070208a.html

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  49. Paul Emery Avatar

    Well spoken Ben
    Most so called Conservatives on this blog don’t have the courage of conviction to speak up against the Republicans when put to the test. Tom McClintock on the other hand is a man of convictions. During a candidates debate in I believe ’08 I asked him whether the war in Iraq was constitutional and he said unequivocally no because war had not been declared by Congress and it was an outright invasion of a sovereign nation.

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  50. Todd Juvinall Avatar
    Todd Juvinall

    Ben Emery | 13 December 2014 at 02:16 PM
    You are an intelligent man Ben Emery, so how can you fall for such leftwing blather as supplied by the link you listed? My goodness, all you have to do is pay attention and know the USA got no oil from Iraq. Also, the 25 million Iraqi women are no longer prisoners in their own country (well at least until Obama pulled out the troops). Same for Afghanistan, the “good war” you libs crow about. No oil there. Besides, fracking has freed us from dependency on foreign oil but you of course hate fracking, right?
    Ben Emery, Please supply us with actual facts would you please? I am so curious as to the sources of your “truth”. I bet you can’t.
    Paul Emery is it again. “So-called” conservatives on this blog? What a hoot. If we don’t share his BDS we just can’t measure up. Also, seems to me you hate the Tea Party (I am not a member) but George and Russ are, and they seem to “standing up” to the status quo in Congress. It looks like you have lost all your credibility to speak on who is conservative. Too funny!

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