Rebane's Ruminations
November 2014
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George Rebane

RR has reported on the many studies that show people of conservative bent vastly outspend liberals in contributions to private charities (and that, dollar for dollar, private charities are enormously more effective in helping the poor and disadvantaged than are government programs).  The intuitive reasons for that are easy to grasp, at least for many of us, and they are backed by an analysis of the data.

The 2013 report – ‘Who Really Gives? Partisanship and Charitable Giving in the United States’ – from MIT by Michele F. Margolis and Michael W. Sances attempts to recover from this embarrassment by arguing that if you control for certain factors, then we can see both the Left and Right in a more equitable light, even though the Right still gives more than the Left.  (H/T to a reader working on a related report for the link to this one.)

PhilanthropyFor those recently arrived on Earth, the proximal reason for the disparate giving is that liberals, who are mostly secular humanists, look to an all-encompassing and providing government to take care of the needy, while conservatives are taught and practice that it is an individual responsibility to fill that gap.  The interesting corollary is that most of the tax dollars for such ‘government giving’ then also comes from the conservatives as implied by Margolis and Sances.  (BTW, to see where in the country who gives how much, here is an interesting website by Chronicle of Philanthropy.)

In any event, the Margolis and Sances report turns out to be a secular humanist bamboozle of the kind in which the Left is a demonstrated and practiced expert (cf. most recently MIT’s Jonathan Gruber’s apologetics for lying about the construct and operation of Obamacare to the “stupid American voters”).  They use a lot of statistical mumbo-jumbo to paper over their revealing introductory admission that the results come about by having ‘controlled’ for disparities in income/wealth and religiosity between the two ideological cohorts.

Well yes, in the aggregate conservatives have life philosophies that to a greater degree promote individual initiatives and risk taking enterprises that garner more income and wealth, all which then allows them to give a larger dollar amount to the charities of their choice.  And yes, conservatives are more religious, therefore they do a lot of their giving through faith-based organizations like churches and synagogues.  And, of course, they do not trust wealth redistribution through government or lackey NGOs, so they don’t direct their monies to the needy through those channels – that’s what makes them conservatives in the first place.

But what the non-technical reader (let alone the nation’s innumerates) don’t catch in such reports is the statistical bamboozle of ‘factoring out’ or ‘controlling for’ to achieve support for your desired conclusion.  These processes have the panache of rigorous science that the layman seldom questions.  You should know that it is always possible to factor out the main causal variables in a dataset so that you can essentially wind up with a blob of scattered noise equally distributed between contending cohorts that then appears to give any level of desired parity – in the present case that there’s not much difference in the giving behaviors of conservatives and liberals.

The conclusion is so much bovine scat as any tally of sourced monies going to the poor and needy through (secular or religious) private charities demonstrates.  And this conclusion is even visible in the contorted presentation by Margolis and Sances.  ‘Touche Monsieur le Puuzy Kat!’  (Remember the famous musketeer Tom & Jerry cartoon?)

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73 responses to “Charitable Giving by Conservatives and Liberals”

  1. Gregory Avatar
    Gregory

    Liberals “are mostly secular humanists”?
    Any references for that claim?
    Browsing the paper, I do agree they tend towards throwing the babies out with the bathwater in their controlling for everything.

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  2. Russ Steele Avatar

    Grubering All The Way Down
    Obamacare Facebook page comments mostly from small group of supporters: 60 percent of site’s 226,838 comments attributed to fewer than 100 unique profiles.
    Organizing for Action declined to comment to The Times when asked whether it hired paid commentators to post on the site during high-traffic days or tried to spur online conversation through volunteers.
    Organizing for Action also handles the president’s Twitter feed. This summer, it was found that nearly half of the president’s 43 million followers at the time appeared to be fake, according to researchers at Barracuda, a computer security company in Campbell, California. Organizing for Action also declined to comment at that time.

    More details HERE.
    Unable to deal with the truth the left goes to great lengths to create their own version of reality.

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  3. Todd Juvinall Avatar

    Russ, one of the strategies of the left that I was confronted with many times was this. The Sierra Club would form other groups of the same people but call them a different name. Same for the locals like FONA. Then when a public hearing came up they would come in a claim huge memberships and coalitions. Also, when the Forest Service was looking at things like timber harvests and dams or wetlands, these groups of the same people with different names would flood the public records with 4×5 pre commented cards to make it seem like a great many people were concerned when only a few staffers with a copy machine actually were. Ole tactics but when you have a lazy ass press these tactics sometimes work.

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  4. Russ Steele Avatar

    Did Facebook and Twitter know about the fakery in the Obama Facebook and Twitter accounts? Were they in on the Grubering? If they are, it is time for honest people to pick up and leave Facebook and Twitter.

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  5. Todd Juvinall Avatar

    Pelline has to know his snooping cuts both ways. HThere is a 1998 arrest of a Steven Robert Frisch (DOB 1958) for drunk driving. Now I would never have known that if Pelline had not decided to try and impugn everyone else. Thanks for the link and now I think I’ll head over to the Bay Area and look for his. LOL!

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  6. George Rebane Avatar

    To those for whom it may come as a surprise that secular humanism (SH) in its variety of forms is the most often labeled and named philosophical basis claimed by liberals to order their worldview, this essay may provide some relief.
    http://hermetic.com/eidolons/On_Liberal_Secular_Humanism
    In liberal academia SH is the most oft-quoted belief system of both professors and students. Since SH is not an organized movement (neither is progressivism), it spreads a wide tent to embrace all sorts of people whose major intellectual claim is that they have renounced religiosity as knuckle-dragger belief system that must be eradicated wherever it is encountered, most certainly in any activity that has a public funded component.
    However, SH does have some vestigial organizations that gather adherents and show them there is something ‘beyond atheism, agnosticism, and humanism’. This is one of them –
    https://www.secularhumanism.org/
    Finally from a Pew Research study – “Encompassing at least agnosticism, atheism, deism,[a] secular humanism, and general secularism,[3] nonreligious Americans represent about a third of the population.[4][1] Nonreligious Americans tend to be more politically liberal, more tolerant,[5] and are viewed favorably by the general population.[6]”

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  7. fish Avatar
    fish

    Did Facebook and Twitter know about the fakery in the Obama Facebook and Twitter accounts? Were they in on the Grubering? If they are, it is time for honest people to pick up and leave Facebook and Twitter.
    Facebook is for vacant teenaged girls, slack jawed yokels, and Gloria Zane! “Honest People” who spend anytime there at all can safely be be ignored.

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  8. Joe Koyote Avatar
    Joe Koyote

    http://www.economist.com/node/16690659 — This is a study that suggests that poor people are more generous and empathetic than the rich. While it does not specify political party affiliation, it does point out that the wealthy are more selfish and narcissistic with regard to the plight of others. This probably explains the right wing viewpoint that poor people are dumb and/or lazy and that is why they are poor, ignoring the role that social environment and opportunity plays in poverty. The wealthy just aren’t capable of psychologically understanding the plight of others. I wonder how much “charity” would exist without tax deductions? The whole concept is best summed up by that famous quote, “Let them eat cake.”

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  9. fish Avatar
    fish

    Posted by: Joe Koyote | 17 November 2014 at 10:08 AM
    I’m sure that there is more of a little “there but for the grace of god go I” to the poor and their notions of charity. Again Joe if you want to restrain the “rich” you….a backer of the party currently in possession of the executive branch need to encourage your “TEAM” to let them fail like they should have during 2007-2008.

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  10. George Rebane Avatar

    JoeK 1008am – Actually Joe the truth is that private charities would mostly fold their tents were the better off people to quit giving. While the percentages of income given may be what you have quoted (although those numbers are also hokey since the true income of people receiving transfer payments is never used in such studies) the aggregate amount of monies received by charities come overwhelmingly from the wealthier Americans and corporations.
    On the separate topic of “right wing viewpoint that poor people are dumb and/or lazy”, the answer again is not as simplistic as liberals like to claim. That you are poor does not automatically mean that you are “dumb” or “lazy”. But again when looking at aggregate statistics on either the income or wealth quintiles, it is not surprising that the higher quintiles have better stats in both intellectual performance and industry. The latter has been tested several times now when welfare and unemployment payments have been rolled back; as if by magic, more people are then able to find jobs and begin providing for themselves. In spite of the denials by liberals, the Great Society placed a tremendous burden on the poor – both educationally and economically.
    Here is a revealing website dedicated to tracking charitable giving –
    http://nccs.urban.org/nccs/statistics/Charitable-Giving-in-America-Some-Facts-and-Figures.cfm
    Again, looking at the percent giving by income categories, and folding in the state of America’s income inequality, we see that the overwhelming amount of monies come from the upper quintile no matter the ‘U shape’ of the percentage curve.

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  11. Gregory Avatar
    Gregory

    George, that handwaving of your 9:05 clearly falls far short of evidence of your specific claim that most liberals are secular humanists.

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  12. George Rebane Avatar

    Gregory 1100am – Sorry Greg, that “handwaving” is about all you’re going to get out of me on a notion that, according to my lights, is akin to arguing whether the sun comes up tomorrow morning. And anecdotally over the years, I have yet to meet an irreligious liberal who has not accepted the tenets of secular humanism whether they knew of the label or not. Furthermore, every presentation on various media outlets where such philosophies are discussed and revealed has confirmed that the SH tenets are the common denominator of our non-religious leftwing. It might be interesting to attempt a proof that the aggregate of the irreligious Left holds to tenets that don’t come under HS.
    And your revised restatement of my claim “that most liberals are secular humanists” is wrong. I claimed that liberals, “who are mostly secular humanists”, in the sense that SH forms the plurality of their irreligious philosophical underpinnings.
    (BTW, this exchange reminds me of the Left claiming not to seek Agenda21 objectives since the objectives they do pursue are not advanced under the explicit A 21 banner, even though they satisfy all A21 requirements.)

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  13. Joe Koyote Avatar
    Joe Koyote

    we see that the overwhelming amount of monies come from the upper quintile no matter the ‘U shape’ of the percentage curve. ”
    No doubt.. they also have more disposable income from which to donate. Once again, it is all about the number of zeros on a paycheck. Every time you ad a zero you multiply income by a factor of 10. At the same time “necessary” living expenses are the same for everyone. We all have to have food and shelter but beyond that all income is discretionary. The difference, of course, is how much is left over after the basics are taken care of.
    Possibly more due to tax deductions and guilt than anything else? I once read that the concept of charitable deductions was devised as an incentive to coax the wealthy to give something back to society. The NCCS stats don’t appear to go below $45k in income and does not include the lowest income levels, so what they seem to be comparing is charity levels between the middle and upper classes.
    Fish– encourage your “TEAM” — I don’t belong to any “TEAM”. I don’t reserve my angst for one political party or another. My positions are based on what I think is best for my children and grandchildren combined with the fact that I just don’t like spoiled rich kids who think that everything and everybody is for sale. It insults my integrity.

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  14. Gregory Avatar
    Gregory

    Either they are “mostly secular humanists” or they aren’t, George, and “mostly” is a clear statement of a majority. Otherwise, that’s a use of the word “mostly” of which I was previously unaware.
    Either a majority of left-liberals (leaving libertarians out of it) are secular humanists, or they aren’t. I understand your responses to be on the order of “it’s intuitively obvious and we won’t require the usual standards of evidence”, but it really isn’t.
    BTW Todd, nice finding the record of Frisch’s drunk driving arrest.

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  15. fish Avatar
    fish

    Fish– encourage your “TEAM” — I don’t belong to any “TEAM”.
    Sure you do Joe…..TEAM LEFT…..or TEAM EVIL when I’m feeling less charitable! I guess you’re right…. “It really doesn’t take very much to stir up the peanut gallery”.
    No need to get defensive.

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  16. George Rebane Avatar

    Gregory 1207pm – In the case of >2 alternative choices, “mostly” is a clear statement of plurality and NOT of majority. In attributing philosophies to liberals (or anybody), the number of choices greatly exceeds two.
    JoeK 1205pm – I guess that NCCS is just comparing the categories that actually contribute significant amounts of money. My point stands.
    It is not surprising that poor people don’t contribute a lot to charities, especially if they are recipients of transfer payments. It is, however, remarkable that Americans contribute a larger share of their incomes to charities than do people who live in the preponderantly more socialist EU.

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  17. Bill Tozer Avatar
    Bill Tozer

    Not quiet on the gist of Dr. Rebane’s post, yet kinda, sorta. When Dr.Stephen Hawkings was pressed by a questioner on his beliefs, Mr. Hawkins because frustrated and gave his answer. The questioner played along, agreeing with the brilliant dude and rephrased the question to “so, when/how did the first molecule replicate itself? “. Answer, some aliens did it a long time ago…” Ok, when did their first molecule replicate itself or when did that piece of bacteria hitching though the universe form, replicate itself, divide, and became two molecules?” Same answer, same pat answer, same frustration.
    Here is news you can’t use:
    https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Lzb4ekyX1kc
    http://www.wnd.com/2012/06/chariots-in-red-sea-irrefutable-evidence/
    There are countless sites declaring this an hoax of hand, often within aweek after details are released with much indignation. “Hoax!”, they say, hoax. Nothing to see here, move on…..quickly.
    People of faith have not cornered the charitable giving market. That would an ignorant thing to spout. People of faith and conservatives are more likely to practice charitable giving, both routinely and more often. Paying taxes does not count as voluntary giving of one’s time, wallet, skills, and labor.
    It one has enough faith to believe that any government is the solution to the world’s ills, they are a lot most disappointed. If one had enough faith that human intelligence and reason alone could solve all the ills of society and provide the needed answers, they would be as frustrated as the brilliant Dr. Hawking in his wheelchair. Government and human intelligence can only take us so far, a distance only a few feet from the starting blocks.

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  18. Gregory Avatar
    Gregory

    So (12:31), if a group A is composed of 10% B and 9% each of the orthogonal groups C, D, E, F, G, H, I, J, K and L, one could truthfully say A is Mostly comprised of B?
    No. They would, in fact, be mostly Not B. If that is your argument, that less than half of Liberals are Secular Humanists but that is the single largest group among them, then they are clearly mostly NOT Secular Humanists.

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  19. Scott Obermuller Avatar

    George at 9:05 –
    “…it spreads a wide tent to embrace all sorts of people whose major intellectual claim is that they have renounced religiosity as knuckle-dragger belief system that must be eradicated wherever it is encountered, most certainly in any activity that has a public funded component.”
    There is one huge exception to that generality. All libs and lefties loooove the folks with white collars when they show up at the correct times to bolster lefty political rants/protests/media shows.
    Suddenly, the fabricated ‘constitutional separation of church and state’ gets put aside for a spell and the left will join arms with their new brothers.
    There’s plenty of hatred of conventional religion on the right as well. You won’t have to wander far into Reason or Taki web sites (to name just 2) to find that they have no tolerance for anyone believing in the flying-teapot-in-the-sky.
    Generalities are necessary, but must always be used carefully.
    Gregory’s question at 5:38 is valid. Starting at 0 degrees 0 minutes and 1 second to the left of dead center, I think one would find a heavy percentage of folks with fairly conventional religious views. Going further leftward towards total insanity, the percentage would drop off. Also the appointed and self-appointed mouth pieces for the left tend to be more agnostic and atheist than the usual ground troops.
    As to how it plays out concerning your post’s topic, I have seen all sorts of claims. I do think the lefties tend to be ‘more mouth than wallet’ as it relates to giving. I think conservatives are much more closed mouthed about what they do for charity. Just an observation of mine – I would be hard pressed to find proof. Although I can certainly point out a few left wing loud mouths that love to crow about what they ‘plan’ to do for the poor. Later investigations for follow up never seems to occur. Ted Turner comes first to mind.

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  20. Scott Obermuller Avatar

    Joe the K at 12:05 –
    “I just don’t like spoiled rich kids who think that everything and everybody is for sale. It insults my integrity.”
    As opposed to the far more numerous spoiled and ungrateful children that think everyone else’s money is really theirs.
    I think Joe would be unpleasantly surprised to see how an unlimited supply of suitcases packed with Benjamins would, indeed, buy damn near everything and everybody. And the poorest would be the ones selling out for the least number of suitcases.
    Matthew 5:3 does not say you are blessed because you are poor. “Blessed are the poor in spirit, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven”
    The amount of cash you have and your morality are completely independent of one another.

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  21. George Rebane Avatar

    Gregory 1253pm – From my schools of English and engineering, I was taught that if a bowl of 100 marbles contained, say, 40 red marbles, and other marbles of various colors each less than, say, 15 marbles, then one correct characterization of the bowl’s contents would be that it contained ‘mostly’ red marbles (and alternately, of course, that ‘most’ of the marbles were not red).
    ScottO 104pm – I agree. I am not aware of anyone having done a survey of leftwingers’ philosophies that contain the category ‘secular humanist’. However, in my experience almost (can’t think of an exception now) every educated leftist familiar with the SH characterization has admitted to holding the tenets of SH, if not actually (proudly) labeling themselves as such. And SH continues down the educational scale slowly changing to some form of belief that man is a transcendent being as the educational level drops. Finally, the least formally educated and also poorer subscribe to organized religions.
    The effect I describe in my post is observed even more strongly and uniformly in Europe (especially the northern part). There the government safety net is wide and encompassing, giving little reason to give monies (beyond already high taxes) to private charities.
    IMHO, charitable activities in free and prosperous societies is best handled by individual contributions of their private monies. Such giving has multiple benefits to both the giver and receiver – the first in fulfilling moral obligations as a member of a benevolent society, the second as doing one’s own due diligence of the charities themselves, supporting only those that are honest, efficient, and effective.

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  22. George Rebane Avatar

    BillT 1242pm – Good points. Just as clarification, I do not maintain that conservatives give more just because more of them are wealthier and have religion. Given the retreat of Christianity in the nation, there are many conservatives who have also taken refuge under the ‘more scientific’ secular humanist umbrella, yet continue to give abundantly. I believe that a reason conservatives tend to give more than liberals is because they 1) want to most effectively salve the needs of the disadvantaged, and 2) don’t believe in enlarging Leviathan to become the end-all of wants for its citizens.

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  23. Joe Koyote Avatar
    Joe Koyote

    And the poorest would be the ones selling out for the least number of suitcases. ” duh.. of course they would, they don’t have a suitcase to begin with. Again it’s all about the zeros. A million dollars sounds like a lot of money to most people, but is only pocket change for a billionaire, the same as a hundred bucks to someone who makes $100k or ten bucks to someone who makes $10k.

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  24. Joe Koyote Avatar
    Joe Koyote

    The zeros are why the whole Citizens United issue is such a travesty. It tilts the balance of power in favor of those who have zeros to burn because a million bucks can buy a lot more air time than ten or a hundred, or even a thousand.

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  25. fish Avatar
    fish

    Posted by: Joe Koyote | 17 November 2014 at 02:04 PM
    Again Joe….what would like to see done?

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  26. Joe Koyote Avatar
    Joe Koyote

    What I would like to see done and what can be done are two different issues. Our electoral system is totally corrupted by money from the politicians, to the large campaign contributors. to the television networks. Senator Bill Bradley (a Republican) once said that the main function of campaigning was to transfer money from the donors to the TV stations. Election reform seldom if ever gets any coverage or media discussion (except the distraction of voter fraud) and, thus, is not a topic of discussion in the general populace. Until Citizens United is overturned, government is for sale to the highest bidder regardless of political party. Those who buy into the mental masturbation the Supreme Court used to justify equating money with speech are fooling themselves. It is not about free speech at all. It’s about protecting the interests of the wealthy and tilting the odds in their favor at the ballot box by allowing them to purchase more influence via advertising.

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  27. Scott Obermuller Avatar

    Ah – now we’re back to ‘getting the money out of politics’.
    Once again the left wants us to believe that money buys votes, but also once again Joe won’t tell us how much he got paid.
    It’s my money Joe, and the govt has no damn business telling me or any one else how much or in what direction it goes politically.
    It’s not just freedom of speech – it’s freedom from tyranny.
    If Citizens United were overturned, do you honestly think anyone would vote differently? Would you? I only care about money in politics when some group forces money out of my pocket in order to campaign against what I believe. How would Joe like to be forced to hand money over to the GOP? Yea – I didn’t think so. You are in the minority of political opinion Joe, because you can’t collect and sort through information rationally and objectively. It will always be that way no matter how much or how little money anyone has.

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  28. Gary Smith Avatar

    One thing being missed is giving time. If I were to to volunteer to work a phone bank or work at the Food Bank I am giving. I am not giving money, I am giving time. Which gives more time, liberals or conservatives? How about someone how is the middle of the road? I don’t think this is something that can be measured, though an interesting topic.
    Joe Koyote at 3:29: The Senator Bill Bradley that I know of is a Democrat not a Republican. Though still an interesting guy and a decent politician.

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  29. George Rebane Avatar

    Make it illegal or limit the money allowed to be spent on political speech (the kind of speech our Founders considered the most important in our republic). OK, what bureaus of censorship need to be established staffed by how many public employees sorting through the millions of politically motivated communications to either fine or maybe even ‘moderate’ or pre-approve before dissemination? How would the nation’s newspapers, cable, broadcast outlets, blogs, etc then be dunned for inappropriate spending to promote their programming, editorial content, and partisan coverage? Who will decide when, whether this or that message oversteps some arbitrary line that cannot be objectively defined in the English language? And the inevitable questions go on.
    Just like the liberals never saw coming the heartbreak of Obamacare (most still don’t), neither do they see the obvious impact and unworkability of the new ‘Money Out of Politics’ Act of 2017 should Hillary succeed the Messiah. Fasten your seatbelts, these people intend to continue fundamentally transforming America – perhaps even kicking it into high gear tomorrow in St Louis.

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  30. fish Avatar
    fish

    Posted by: Joe Koyote | 17 November 2014 at 03:29 PM
    Well it would seem that you’re screwed now doesn’t it. You didn’t think that once this magnificent edifice of total and all powerful government was established that guys like us would retain any say over it now did you?

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  31. Joe Koyote Avatar
    Joe Koyote

    “Once again the left wants us to believe that money buys votes” — It is really quite simple to understand
    Once again the right wants us to believe that it doesn’t.
    1. It is common knowledge that the biggest spenders usually win, not always but most often.
    2. Most of the money spent on campaigning is via TV commercials and other media
    3. Advertising costs money
    Therefore: whomever has the most money to spend has the best chance of winning.
    Taking this to the next level:
    1. If whomever spends the most has the best chance of winning then whomever donates the most has the best chance of influencing the outcome because they are able to lend more support to one person/cause or another.
    2. If media advertising costs money then it is not FREE speech, it is PURCHASED speech that is sold to the highest bidder.
    This violates the basic tenant of the Constitution that all men are equal under the law because this law, “Citizens United” creates a class of people (those willing and able to make large contributions as well as through their corporate holdings) who are better able to purchase speech and are thus unequal to the rest of us.

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  32. fish Avatar
    fish

    Crony Capitalism……it burns…..!!
    http://www.nytimes.com/2014/11/18/us/politics/health-law-turns-obama-and-insurers-into-allies.html?_r=0
    A trillion dollars and making sure your business never loses money…….that will buy you a ton of allies!
    Well done democrats….the party of big business…the party of Fascism!
    Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha!

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  33. Bill Tozer Avatar
    Bill Tozer

    Joe. Da biggest spenders are usually the winners. To take it to a higher level, incumbents are usually (90% of the time) the winners, at least in Congressional Districts.
    Redistricting and all that stuff. To the victor goes the spoils. Time to grab all the towels off Air Force One while you got the chance. It will take a decade now for Nancy to get the gavel back in her cold dead hands. To the victor goes the spoils.
    Citizens United was all about free speech, period. The RESULT of Citizens United is all about money, which has you all puckered up. The Supremes’ job is to rule whether or not a law is Constitutional. It was found to be legal. Rights enshrined in the Constitution. If you don’t like the results , lobby Congress to write a new law that will pass the Constitutional tests and more to your liking. Lobby and send in a 50 dollar donation.
    Again, you confuse free speech with commercial speech. What, go down and seize the Sac Bee, SF Chronicle, SJ Mercury, LA Times, and The Union and tell them they have to run full page political ads for your favorite candidates all for fun and for free?? Go seize the Motherships of ABC, NBC, and CBS and tell them that the must run political infomercials for fun and for free during football season or during prime time. That will really help them win the ratings war.
    Don’t need to tell ya that campaigns are expensive (but I could not resist). That is a fact that won’t go away. Takes money to get your name and message out . Big money sometimes and it’s only getting more expensive. Gotta keep up with the rise in inflation and keep those pay checks coming for the hard working blue collar Americans working in the print, radio, and broadcast mediums behind the scenes.
    Best way for a nobody to run is to join up with a major political party, pay yer dues in the trenches for a decade, and when it’s your moment have the Party back you with evil tainted blood money sent in by widows, landscapers, and CEO’s.

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  34. Gregory Avatar
    Gregory

    “Gregory 1253pm – From my schools of English and engineering, I was taught that if a bowl of 100 marbles contained, say, 40 red marbles, and other marbles of various colors each less than, say, 15 marbles, then one correct characterization of the bowl’s contents would be that it contained ‘mostly’ red marbles (and alternately, of course, that ‘most’ of the marbles were not red).”
    George, with all due respect, even in state schools such an insult to the language was and is unusual. If there are 100 marbles, there would need to be 51 or more of the dominant color to be “mostly that color”. I think the fog of time is at work here.

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  35. George Rebane Avatar

    I guess no one wanted address my 411pm. In that comment I was NOT talking about political advertising in the media the purpose and payment of which is clear, but I was talking about political editorial content.

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  36. Scott Obermuller Avatar

    So Joe counts who has the most ads and votes for them?
    I don’t. I won’t deny that there is a link (usually) between who wins and who has the biggest war chest. I think that some one like Obama who is a favorite from the get go lands a ton of money because folks want to contribute to a winner. Obama had all of the major news and information outlets gushing all over him from the start. I knew he was a lock as long as he didn’t do anything completely stupid. Yes, it usually takes money to wage a major campaign. How are you going to stop that? The average voter is lazy and uninformed. You need his or her vote. What to do? Joe has no answers, just vague pap and BS he reads from Daily Kos.
    “This violates the basic tenant of the Constitution that all men are equal under the law because this law, “Citizens United” creates a class of people (those willing and able to make large contributions as well as through their corporate holdings) who are better able to purchase speech and are thus unequal to the rest of us.”
    The Constitution does not and should not guarantee equal outcomes.
    ‘Equal under the law’ means the govt is to treat us all equally. Not that we can all go buy the same stuff. There is no ‘new class’ created. There are plenty of wealthy folks that agree with Joe and plenty that don’t.

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  37. George Rebane Avatar

    Gregory 628pm – Then we’ll have to leave it at that. In your unfogged lexicon ‘mostly that color’ and ‘most of that color’ have the same meaning. Back in the old days they allowed those short symbol strings to carry nuanced and different meaning. (So how does one efficiently connote plurality without necessitating majority in these modern times?) In any event, I didn’t know that I had taken a sabbatical from expressing myself with the written word so as to become that rusty. No matter, now that you understand my use of such language, I trust that you can follow my arguments.

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  38. Gregory Avatar
    Gregory

    George, while it might be possible to follow an argument that “liberals are mostly Secular Humanists” knowing the writer thinks that can be a true statement even if far fewer than 50% of liberals actually are Secular Humanists, that doesn’t make the argument acceptable.
    As the dominant professor of systems engineering at my alma mater would put it, “Nice try, zero points”.

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  39. Bonnie McGuire Avatar

    George you’re right about where donations for the poor come from. Anyone who has ever been poor knows there’s nothing left over for charity. When you finally do better financially you can then donate to your favorite charity. Pretty simple math.

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  40. Todd Juvinall Avatar
    Todd Juvinall

    If I recall there was a few stories back during the AlGoer and then John Keey races against Bush/Cheney about the “giving” and later Biden. Obama did break the run of cheapskates though. He gave a lot of his book money to charity. Kerry and Gore gave hardly any. Bush and Cheney gave millions.

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  41. Bill Tozer Avatar
    Bill Tozer

    Changing gears, does anyone want to tackle this scenario? The Dems move farther to the Left and abandon the center. Perhaps back Elizabeth Warren and dump Hillary just as Ted Kennedy and Harry Reid threw their weight behind Obama in 2008, dissing Hillary Rodham in the process.
    Their base is the cities. They can win the White House in 2016 just by grabbing the urban jungles. They don’t need rural America to win. New York to California and the major urban areas in a few states and they are in. The Republicans have to run the table thru The Rust Belt and have a much harder road to hoe. No room for error while the Dems are already guaranteed all but 30 or so electoral votes to win starting today.
    Thus, I see them going for it. That would really energize their base of NY Limousine Libs, the NAACP, the Unions, the wealthier than average living near both coasts, and the very poor. They simply do not need the middle nor like the middle.
    I see no reason for the Democrat Party to drop all pretense and jump both feet in the progressive agenda/socialist/Marxist waters. No more just dipping the big toe in.
    For the Republican Party to have even a shot, they must stay disciplined and focused and not overreach for the next two years. Be it baby steps, they need to walk one step at a time and keep pushing forward. The Republicans should speak with one voice on the economy, jobs, and more jobs. They must have the backbone to stand up to the onslaught of the war on women and throwing Granny from the train. The Dems have nothing to loose by moving more to the outer limits of the left extremes.
    Maybe 2016 will be another 2008 for the Dems. I hope they take a stab at it. As long as they think it was their poor messaging instead of their policies that caused them to lose the Senate and a slew of State Houses, the Republicans might have a narrow chance.

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  42. Bill Tozer Avatar
    Bill Tozer

    Ooooppps, that was meant for the Sandbox

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  43. fish Avatar
    fish

    Ooooppps, that was meant for the Sandbox
    Boy….if I had a dollar for every time I said that on the cats behalf.

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  44. George Rebane Avatar

    BillT 110pm – Good catch and good topic for the sandbox – will you repost Mr Tozer?

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  45. Bill Tozer Avatar
    Bill Tozer

    Nope, no reposting. Think we are campaign weary at the moment.
    Let’s look at those who live on the altruistic plane, shall we.
    http://theweek.com/article/index/272227/speedreads-rev-al-sharpton-owes-millions-in-taxes
    With all the time he puts in helping others and fighting injustice for the silent minorities, one would think Brother Al should be declared Humanitarian of the Year and have his debt owed to the taxpayers forgiven. Didn’t the Reverend Jesse Jackson have the same “Oppps, I forgot to pay my fair share” moment as well? I can understand Willie Nelson smoking pot every day of his life forgetting to pay his fair share, but what is The Reverend’ Jesse’s excuse? Pay unto Caesar that which is Caesar’s. Seems his son Jr. followed in his pappy’s footsteps and now sits in Federal prison. Both are great at collecting other people’s money, not so good at paying the piper. A family tradition.

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  46. Ben Emery Avatar
    Ben Emery

    I can’t help myself on this topic. I am in a chemo downtime at the moment and thought I would check out what was being said on the blogosphere.
    What a ludicrous proposal, it has a thousand holes within it. This is an intellectually dishonest post meant to dig the trench of the Great Divide even deeper.
    What is a conservative? What is a liberal? I would argue the Republican party isn’t a conservative party at all and the Democratic Party is more conservative than liberal. Also the line “…in the aggregate conservatives have life philosophies that to a greater degree promote individual initiatives and risk taking…” is the antithesis of conservative. Once again George is equating pro business and being conservative, which has very little to do with each other.
    political conservatism definition –
    belief in the value of established and traditional practices in politics and society

    dislike of change or new ideas in a particular area
    A few areas that are missed in the worldview that everything starts and stops at monetary value.
    -volunteer hours (I personally donate my time and energy that is easily worth $15,000 a year in volunteer hours but donate very little money)
    -religious or church donations are seen more as a duty or tithing not a charity(many sects are 10% of annual income)
    -policies supported within the structure of economy that promotes income equality or inequality (needing welfare programs less is the best gift we can give collectively as a society)

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  47. George Rebane Avatar

    BenE 936am – Welcome back, and I trust the chemo is going well and doing its job. Now re your comment –
    1) ‘Conservative’ has always been used on RR as a label for today’s socio-political ideology that hearkens back to its roots in the classical liberalism of the first half of the 19th century as promoted by economic philosophers like Frederic Bastiat. Conservative is never used here only in the dictionary sense of your second definition. Pushing that meme is simply a longstanding progressive talking point to an ignorant audience.
    ‘Liberal’ is used here in the same modern sense of being a part of a broader collectivist or leftwing ideology, and has nothing to do with the above classical liberalism. The argument here has always been that modern liberals are liberal only in the sense of promoting the redefinition of traditional individual behaviors that do not threaten the other sectors of state control. In other areas of social activity liberals are very opposed to individualism, innovation, and change. E.g. the former Soviet state was the most conservative form of governance on Earth.
    More detail here –
    http://rebaneruminations.typepad.com/rebanes_ruminations/2013/02/ideologies-and-governance-a-structured-look.html
    2) Religious and church donations issue from a person’s life values exactly the same way as does secular volunteering, neither are mandated by the state, extortion, or other form of external force. Therefore, both are charitable behaviors.
    3) The state ‘promoting’ income equality – with laws, regulations, and mandates backed by the gun – mangles markets to the detriment of all (the so benefitted enjoy a temporary or insular advantage that soon settles out as costs and prices adjust), and is simply another albeit more inefficient form of welfare (as are protective tariffs and other forms of subsidies to corporations).

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  48. Scott Obermuller Avatar

    Ben – “A few areas that are missed in the worldview that everything starts and stops at monetary value.”
    He then uses this as an example – “policies supported within the structure of economy that promotes income equality or inequality (needing welfare programs less is the best gift we can give collectively as a society).”
    OK Ben, I give up – please tell me what these policies are that promote income equality that don’t involve money.

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  49. Gregory Avatar
    Gregory

    Ben, a little time with a dictionary can prove that Progressives are, in fact, the Regressives, believing as they do in “becoming less advanced; returning to a former or less developed state”. Less freedom, too, unless it’s the freedom to do what Progressives know is what’s the right thing to do.
    Unlike George, I see precious little classic liberalism in modern Conservatism… the left recognizes ‘civil libertarians’ as sort of being on their side, the right sees economic libertarians as being on theirs. Precious few on the right or the left agree that governments, from local to central, should mostly mind their own business. Wm. F. Buckley once labeled Democrats as being socialists, and Republicans as reluctant socialists; looking at the budgets created by both sides, I think that still applies.

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  50. George Rebane Avatar

    Re Gregory’s 1156am – “…precious little classic liberalism in modern Conservatism…”. Agreed, and that’s why I call myself a conservetarian.

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