Rebane's Ruminations
October 2014
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George Rebane

[This is the addended transcript of my regular KVMR commentary broadcast on 22 October 2014.  Starting today, my commentaries have been moved from Friday evenings to Wednesdays’ 6pm news hour.]

In less than two weeks Americans go to the polls and vote in an important mid-term election to determine the extent and progress of the country’s ongoing fundamental transformation during President Obama’s last two years in office.  The focus is the US Senate – which side will gain or maintain the majority.  This comes at a time when the nation’s political Right and Left are further apart in what they believe than they were during the Civil War 150 years ago.

Back then the North and the South were much closer together in their beliefs about God, governance, economics, and even human nature.  The South wanted to retain slavery for economic reasons since their economy was based on slave-powered agriculture.  Yes, there was a fringe that also thought Negroes were less than human, but they were a small and uneducated minority.  The majority knew slavery was not a long term solution and used the constitutional guarantee of states’ rights to attempt secession in order to pace their own economic transition.  But that was enough to launch the then bloodiest conflict now recognized by many as the first modern war.

In recent decades Americans have again pulled into two very distinct and polarized groups.  The difference today is that the dimensions, along which we see ourselves separated, are comprehensive in the sense that there are precious few beliefs which we still hold in common.

In governance the Left strives toward pure democracy as the way to organize society, and the Right adheres to republicanism, believing with our Founders that popular democracy paves the road to national suicide.  The Left believes that a person reaches the loftiest heights of achievement as a member of an altruistic collective.  The Right rejects public policies based on widespread altruism and promotes enlightened individualism in work, responsibility, risk taking, and commensurate rewards as the way to organize a beneficent society.  The Left sees such a society as based on nothing less than rapacious greed.


We also have a hard time coming together because we see ourselves as inhabitants of literally different worlds, each having a history that is almost unrecognizable by the other.  Today this is no more apparent anywhere than in the widely disparate American histories the Right and the Left hold dear.  As a result, each side prescribes their own distinct medicines to cure the country’s two differently perceived diseases.  And each side considers the other’s medicine to be toxic to their desired quality of life and society as a whole.

There are many well-meaning people out there who counsel that there exists yet a compatible and achievable ideological middle to which both sides may profitably congregate.  Years ago President Lyndon Johnson invited his political opposites to “come let us reason together” as the means to overcome differences.  Unfortunately, today even that is no longer a possibility.  Why?  Because the Right and Left subscribe to almost totally different logics.  This may come as a surprise to the non-technical layman who is taught that there is only one system of logic, and it’s the one that he understands.  Unfortunately, reality and mathematics teach us that there are an uncountable number of different yet totally self-consistent systems of logic.  You can reason the solution to a problem using yours, and I can equally reason a different solution using mine.

Coming together might even then be possible if we would but adopt a common definition of what a good solution looks like.  Then we could compare our various approaches in a more commonly objective manner, and perhaps find one that we agree on, even though it may be for different reasons.  But that also is no longer possible.  Unfortunately, time does not allow me to explore the many more factors that polarize us.  For those interested, I will discuss those on Rebane’s Ruminations.

As a nation we live in a historically difficult time.  Each side firmly believes that 2+2=4, and that the other side insanely holds that 2+2=5.  So any compromise that yields a middle ground of 2+2=4.5 is patently unacceptable to both.  They each see that society built on the other’s rules simply will not work.  Therefore each seeks to triumph over the other, believing that their ultimate victory will then benefit all.

My name is Rebane, and I also expand on this and related themes on georgerebane.com where an expanded transcript of this commentary is posted with relevant links.  As always, my views are not necessarily shared by KVMR.  Thank you for listening.

[Addendum]  The attributes mentioned here that divide us into two distinct groups have been covered in these pages over the years.  But since the discord between us continues to grow, it is useful to review the specifics of how differently we believe.

1. The Left promotes policies that enable and empower the growth of big governments at all levels, especially a cradle-to-grave providing central government.  In the process the Left promotes governing structures based on all-knowing, all-powerful, expert elites who know what would benefit us and what we need in all phases and all stages of our lives.  Society should live under the aegis of central planning that provides equally for all – “From each …, to each … .”  The Right does not believe that humans know enough to beneficially manage large complex societies from centers removed from where people live, and with a single voice declare that such attempts not only don’t work, but have led to untold human misery, suffering, and death.

2. The Left teaches that all cultures are of equal worth and that no man has the right to pejoratively judge another’s culture.  The Right point to the variety of dysfunctional cultures that denigrate and suppress factions of their own populations, cultures that have stifled their adherents for generations (centuries), and have no problem asserting that this culture is better than that one, and that we don’t want any of that culture to be a daily factor in our lives.

3. A number of studies have shown that significantly more people of the Left than Right have problems with numeracy.  This deficit goes a long way into explaining why the Left does not want to debate public policies on the basis of the aggregate numbers involved, and instead prefers to advance their causes through emotional anecdotes to constituencies who are specially suited to resonate with such arguments.

4. A number of studies have also shown that the Left has significant problems understanding the elements of economics.  For example, embracing their ‘truth’ that government tax rates don’t affect economic behavior (with regard to growth, investment, savings, and job creation).  The Right believes that tax policy has a marked and measurable effect on economic behavior.  Both sides reject each other’s metrics of such behavior.

5. To impose equality, the Left emplaces policies that dun the capable and promote the less capable, hence imposing a handicapping system at the starting line.

6. The Right believes in equal opportunity that is best attempted at the starting line, knowing that our individual abilities and efforts will cause us to advance at different rates.  The Left, while also attesting equal opportunity, instead measures the success of such policies at the ‘finish line’ that ideally must be crossed concurrently by all.

7. The Left believes that the best future for humans is a global government that controls all resources, regulates all production, and prescribes all human activities.  The compendium of such societal objectives may be seen under the prescriptions of the United Nation’s Agenda 21 umbrella of objectives.  The Right holds a diametrically opposite view that sees aggregate benefits to mankind in the formation of smaller sovereign nation-states consisting of smaller cities and communities of people with more similar belief systems that will compete both culturally and commercially with each other under a loose global federation that serves primarily as a locus of communication and arbitration among the jurisdictions.

8. Realizing that conversion of beliefs is a futile enterprise, the Right is more willing to entertain means of separation that range all the way from the establishment of new states from parts of the old all the way to the Great Divide which can itself range from a confederation of semi-independent regions to new sovereign nation-states.  The Left will have none of it because they realize that such free jurisdictions will attract the wealth creators from the remaining socialist jurisdictions.  (You have read about the State of Jefferson movement in California.  Here is another one starting in Florida.)

We have covered more differences in previous RR commentaries and their comment streams, but these should suffice to make the case that there is no easy middle to be had between today’s progressive collectivists and the conservative classical liberals (also libertarians and conservetarians).  Our belief systems are also maintained by a plethora of media outlets that tailor the content across the liberal-to-conservative spectrum.  Pew Research has studied and published how major worldwide outlets attract their audiences from such a spectrum (here and here).  And again, such findings go a long way to explaining how people maintain and strengthen their strongly held ideologies.  Especially when one considers how the preponderence of liberal outlets concurs with how much more trusting are liberals than conservatives of their information sources.

[23oct14 update]  The purpose of this addition is to take advantage of the several comments to this piece made by Steven Frisch, CEO of the Sierra Business Council and admittedly one of the leading progressive intellects and apologists of Nevada County’s Left.  Available for your inspection, his wit and wisdom has adorned RR’s comment streams for years, fervently attempting to debase the people and thoughts advanced here by me and RR’s more conservative readers, while arguing his own view of the world.

For the recently arrived or drive-by RR readers it is important to review the purpose of this web log.  As stated in the blog’s tagline, I believe this century to very likely be the last and therefore most momentous for mankind.  The prime support for this thesis comes from the confluence of technology, global economics, and contending ideologies seeking to explain what is happening and what should happen next.  All of these factors have been elaborated here, and will continue to be examined and debated as long as my energy and interests last.  The hoped for audience for these exercises are the ideologically pre-formed (the so-called ‘independents’ and ‘undeclareds’) and those leaning Right who might gain more productive insight to support their interpretations and beliefs.  There is little hope evinced here for epiphanies and/or conversions of collectivists.  Instead, RR continues to serve as an open and inviting forum for our leftwing compatriots to also put their ideas on display and contend for the minds of the uncertain and/or uncommitted.  As such, RR is somewhat unique in its admittedly lax policy of monitoring, mediating, and moderating readers’ ideas and their modes of expression (for which it is continually and roundly ostracized by the Left).

So, with this preamble we return to Mr Frisch’s latest foray.  To begin we must understand that the man is a professional progressive apparatchik whose NGO and lifestyle are maintained by agenda driven state and private grantees of the liberal persuasion, joined by the occasional city or county jurisdiction that has no idea of what real value SBC can deliver.  As such, Mr Frisch is one of the uncountable many soldiers of socialism spread across the land who seek to bring America to a better place, and rescue it from what they and theirs see as the country’s exceptionally sordid past and equally deficient present.  The propaganda and programs promoted by SBC are readily available at its website.

People like Mr Frisch do not want to entertain thoughts that a large segment of American citizens are very unhappy with the direction the country has taken in the last decades and that is now amplified by the current administration.  They attribute talk and discussions of creating new states and events pushing us toward a Great Divide as the product of fevered brains belonging to a fringe and radical minority.  They must do this, for their ideological products are based on the notion that Americans in the aggragate are all of one undirected and sanguine mind waiting for enlightened succor, a malady for which they have the perfect remedy.

When I presented arguments illuminating the ongoing absence of any feasible middle ground that could attract conservatives and liberals, Mr Frisch’s coarse response was not to contend the arguments, but instead to insult and fasten on a point of historical interpretation.  He did this to divert attention from the thrust of my commentary and at the same time to attempt a denigration of my knowledge of history, thereby hoping to lower the strength of the real arguments since they came from the same source he discredits.  But as usual, he and so many of his ilk do not read well, and instead leap into an intellectual abyss in order to commandeer the conversation. In this case, Mr Frisch assumed the well-established stance taught by Saul Alinsky in his Rules for Radicals – you construct a strawman that is a suitable target for your assault, attribute its origin to your selected counter-party (‘this is what he really meant to say’), and then proceed to destroy the strawman.  However, here in the process Mr Frisch’s selection of my introductory remarks on the state of the southern mind viz slavery and the implied causes of the Civil War demonstrated either his ignorance of American history or the assertion that the Left’s control of our schools now teaches what he seems to spout.

Without going into the details of what led to the secession of states in 1860, most students of pre-Great Society schools are aware of the complex matrix of economic and states’ rights issues that gave rise to the war for Southern independence.  Slavery and the complex beliefs about Negroes were ancillary to the economy of the South which began to transform the region after Eli Whitney’s invention of the cotton gin.  Cheap labor provided by slaves were paramount to that economy, and that longstanding evil was amplified by the conversion of new lands to cotton and its profitable shipment to the waiting mills in England.  America’s import of the finished cloth and clothes irked the industrialists of the populous North enough for them to usher through Congress tariffs on British imports of finished cotton products, this in order to change the economics of the South’s exports and force them to sell their cotton to the North at its dictated discount.   With the failure of the principle of the states’ ability to nullify distasteful federal laws, secession was the South’s only alternative.  And Lincoln’s determination to keep the Union whole by force gave rise to what we today call the Civil War (technically a misnomer since the South never wanted to conquer and govern the United States).

But Mr Frisch’s desperate accusation (deduction?) that somehow I condone slavery and hold the 19th century southerners innocent of their support of that despicable institution serves as the latest Exhibit A of the progressives’ denial of the great schism that separates us; a schism that they seek to ‘fix’ by the government gun which, by in large and starting with Washington, they now control.  However, that denial is only a public posture.  When they consult with each other, they give evidence that they are well aware of the schism and what measures they must take in order to advance their agenda – the public evidence of that abounds in the policies that come out of the Democrats’ caucuses and their subsequent promotions by the lamestream.  The keystone to keeping that train on track is a continued high level of public ignorance starting with their ‘in the tank’ constituencies.   The remainder of the task involves convincing the ‘independents’ that all is well, no need to look behind the curtain because there are hidden only a few but voluble right wingnut crazies who can be safely ignored while we seek means to silence them.

Let me end this by pointing out that the above arguments are not constrained to Mr Frisch who is only a local placeholder for the remainder of the leftwing's legion working to fundamentally transform America.  There are many more like him, busy in their own necks of the wood.  Nothing I have said is meant to denigrate Mr Frisch as a person.  He is a man of deeply held beliefs and a very organized ideology which he often communicates admirably.  I and mine believe him and his to be in great error when their plans for our future are laid bare for examination.  And I believe he does his best to promote his cause with the well-worn tools that collectivists have used over a century now.  We may not like his means and methods, but that is all they have, and we should accept that while we continue our own fight for maintaining what the Founders bequeathed us, whether we can go on with them as our neighbors or not.

Posted in , , , ,

83 responses to “No Middle Ground in Sight (update 23oct14)”

  1. stevenfrisch Avatar
    stevenfrisch

    “Yes, there was a fringe that also thought Negroes were less than human, but they were a small and uneducated minority.”
    George, I would say that no single statement shows more perfectly how unrepentantly backward, historically inaccurate, blinded by ideology and just plain full of shit you are than this one.
    It does not really matter whether people think others are ‘less than human’, if they treat them that way they are equally responsible.
    I could come up with dozens of historians and historical sources that disagree with your statement; but that doesn’t really matter does it because facts just don’t fuking matter.
    And did you really get away with saying this bullish
    t on KVMR—-Paul Emery…..WTF?

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  2. Scott Obermuller Avatar

    SteveF – what in hell are you talking about?
    “I could come up with dozens of historians and historical sources that disagree with your statement”
    In what way? That no one ever thought Africans were less human? That everyone thought that?
    If facts matter, Steve, you might want to posit your version of reality.
    Of course George ‘gets away with it’ on KVMR. You just got away with it on his blog.

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  3. George Rebane Avatar

    stevenfrisch 634pm – Read the words Steve, I did not divest the economic stalwarts of the South of responsibility for maintaining slavery, of course they were not only responsible for its maintenance, but more so since they (and not the ignorant poor) controlled the economic levers of slavery. But you still have trouble understanding what goes on here, and from your comment it seems that you are overly exercising yourself when you try. Why don’t you just give it up, and quit embarrassing yourself?
    Nevertheless, you again added poor reading skills and comprehension, dividing factors that I omitted from the list in the addendum.

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  4. Russ Steele Avatar

    Steven,
    You wrote: I could come up with dozens of historians and historical sources that disagree with your statement; but that doesn’t really matter does it because facts just don’t fu*king matter.
    i think you left us all waiting for, and counting, your historians and historical sources. Current Count: 0

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  5. Walt Avatar

    Let’s have some of that Progressive revisionism. This should be good….

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  6. RL Crabb Avatar

    As usual, the more interesting conversation gets drowned out by the screams of racism. Progressives wield it like a club. “Old, white, privileged”…If it was as true as they would have everyone believe there would be no Nikki Haleys, Ben Carsons or Bobby Jindals. Oh, there are some, to be sure, but I wouldn’t go so far to call them the majority.

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  7. Scott Obermuller Avatar

    I’m not sure what Steve’s problem is. Unfortunately, he seems largely incoherent.
    Apparently he is overwhelmed by the sheer magnitude of citations available to drive our poor G Rebane back into whatever unmentionable corner of the uncivilized universe he has emerged from. I’m quite sure after he recovers from the effects of the medically prescribed medication he has imbibed, Mr Frisch will favor us with more of his witty reposte and a clarification of what, exactly, is the deviation from proven reality that George has thrust so rudely upon us.

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  8. Bill Tozer Avatar
    Bill Tozer

    My, the very first comment serves as an antedotal example of the gist of Dr. Rebane’s post. Can’t even make a logical comment without the left chiming in with emotional hysteria
    Serves to reason that if one considered the Negro less than human, that same person would treat the Negro as less than human or at best a human from an inferior race. Nothing to get all upset about telling it like it was in a calm fashion. Again a timely illistration of the points Dr. Rebane made. Of course, no mention from the poster contesting the left-right side of the brain thought processes nor collectivism vs individualism, replubicism vs true democracy, or any salent points. Probably was too upset to read further.
    Typical tactic from the Marists I have noticed. Jump on one half of a sentence and get bogged down right there and it becomes the one and only issue as they play it over and over again. Talk about not seeing the forest from the trees. Boy, it is silly season ” fa shure, brah”.

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  9. Bill Tozer Avatar
    Bill Tozer

    There is a saying that goes something like this: if you want to hide something from a Christian, but it in the Bible. They never look there.
    Ouch, but there is some truth to it.
    If you want to hide something from a collectivist Marxist, put it down in writing. They only read the white on the page, not the black.

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  10. Paul Emery Avatar

    Obviously you’re designee for Rep Doug La Malfa believes in collectivism as witnessed by his family sucking the government tit for decades and millions of dollars in agricultural subsidies.

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  11. George Rebane Avatar

    PaulE 1015pm – Not sure I understand your opening phrase, but on the rest of it you’re not even close. LaMalfa does not believe in collectivism, but as a capitalist does believe in legally gaming the system that is also gamed by his competitors. The best way to stop that I have outlined before – do away with food stamps bill that has 15% of its funding devoted to ag subsidies. Then pass a food stamps bill that is not hidden under the title of ‘Farm Bill’.

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  12. Paul Emery Avatar

    Not a very deft dodge George in your defense of welfare for millionaires who are in a business dependent of taxpayer subsidies.

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  13. Scott Obermuller Avatar

    Does Paul have the total over the years for the taxes the La Malfas have paid to the govt? Does Paul have the total over the years the La Malfas have contributed to the govt via payroll taxes? Does Paul have the total for the taxes paid by the employees of the La Malfas? How much value have the La Malfa family provided our state and country? How much have the La Malfas sent to the govt and how much has the govt sent to the La Malfas? Paul doesn’t know and doesn’t care. He just parrots lines he learned from the Democrats.
    Maybe Paul can break down how much Doug La Malfa personally has gained from the govt and how much Doug has paid to the govt. Maybe, but I seriously doubt it.
    Maybe if the Dems (and Paul) think govt subsidies are so bad, they might want to join the Tea Party and help get rid of them. But no, they just want to make noise.

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  14. Paul Emery Avatar

    Do you know those numbers Scott? If so please share. I don’t have access to Rep La Malfa’s tax returns do you? Are you just guessing or do you have the information?

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  15. Paul Emery Avatar

    Scott
    This was from a Republican
    “It didn’t take long after Doug LaMalfa announced he was running for Congress last month before a supporter of his Republican opponents went on the attack, zeroing in on just less than $4.7 million of federal subsidies paid to his family rice farm over the last 15 years.
    Under the headline “Doug LaMalfa for Congress? Are you kidding me???” Sacramento-area conservative activist Aaron Park posted a logo on his blog showing Republican LaMalfa’s trademark cowboy hat emblazoned with two dollar signs.
    The hat was perched atop a bag of rice.
    “Nor-Cal Top-10 List of Farm-Aid Recipients,” the caption says.
    In an interview, Park says he believes it’s important to point out LaMalfa’s family rice farm in Richvale has received millions of dollars of federal subsidies over the years, something he feels will be one of the biggest issues in the congressional race.”
    http://www.redding.com/news/politics/lamalfas-47-million-in-farm-subsidies-draw

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  16. Scott Obermuller Avatar

    Paul – you are playing childish games. If you want to talk about Doug La Malfa, then provide the numbers for Doug La Malfa.
    If you don’t like subsidies, then lets talk about ending all subsidies.

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  17. stevenfrisch Avatar
    stevenfrisch

    I love how right wing nuts today come up with the most ridiculous rationales for past history…talk about revisionism… this is the ultimate in revisionism from George….’of course the south was responsible for slavery’…but it was only a minority of the southern ruling class….it was not ALL southerners…they may have allowed it, voted for it, benefited from it, lived in an economy built on it, condoned it, attended churches that preached that Africans were subhuman and believed it, but they were not in some way ‘in control’ so they are absolved of responsibility.
    George would have you believe that good southerners were searching for some magic bullet to end slavery….but do it gradually…kind of like treating a disease and getting to the cure eventually. In the mean time let the bondage, rape, and torture continue in order to allow it to diminish GRADUALLY, like some rational response to evil. The never was any ‘states rights’ to bondage, murder, rape and torture or denying people Constitutional rights, that was fiction from the beginning. The south did not fight to protect ‘states rights’ they fought to protect slavery, states rights was a rationale for continuing their system of slavery…the south sought to maintain and extend slavery…they sought to have new slave states admitted to the Union…they sought to extend their economic system across the west, and they sought to have the north accept their system as consistent with the Constitution and its principles.
    If one does not see that, and see George’s comment as the functional equivalent to Germans in the wake of the holocaust saying, ‘but we did not know….we read Schiller…we brought you poetry and art and music…we are the good Germans…only a few of our countrymen committed mass genocide’…. well then I don’t know how to help you poor souls who so deceive yourselves into believing you have American values.
    And if one does not accept modern day apologists like George revising history they must suffer from some reading comprehension problem. Yeah, well I don’t have a reading comprehension problem, George has a HISTORICAL comprehension problem.
    I am not going to waste my time citing sources Russ because you won’t read them, understand them, or accept them as valid, because they won’t fit your world view, which in the end is really all you have, your opinions. If it fits your world view it is correct and if it doesn’t it is invalid. What a way to live an intellectual life, accepting only what one already believes, and believing only what one can accept. Kind of the recipe for the circle of stupid.

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  18. stevenfrisch Avatar
    stevenfrisch

    “Yes, there was a fringe that also thought Negroes were less than human, but they were a small and uneducated minority. The majority knew slavery was not a long term solution and used the constitutional guarantee of states’ rights to attempt secession in order to pace their own economic transition.”
    Seriously Paul Emery, you let this revisionist bullshit go out over the air on KVMR, without a challenge or counter-point? IF I wanted to provide a commentary that was based on The Protocols of the Elders of Zion could I do it?

    Like

  19. Bill Tozer Avatar
    Bill Tozer

    Numbers, numbers. More proof that there is no middle ground. 85% of the farm bill goes to food stamps and it is all crickets out there. That is good subsidies. 15% of the Farm bill goes to various agricultural programs and research and farm subsidies, and all hell breaks loose. Did not Dr. Rebane mention something about one side having a problem with numbers.
    Slavery? Most of the slaves entered the Colonies through New England ports as the New England vessels and merchants benefited nicely from the slave trade industry. In fact, the highest number of slaves were sent to South America back in the day. Filthy evil rich New Englanders and their slave industry. In fact, the Confederate Constitution was the only Constitution in the Western World at the time that banned the importation of slaves from other countries.
    Slavery is and was immoral, period. Not revisionism. The small minority of people owned slaves as only a small minority of the total population could afford slaves. Thomas Jefferson considered Indians as savages and savage beasts to be eliminated, but we look at the entirety of man and the historical context. I would hazard to guess that a minority of Germans were Nazis or members of the Nazi party.
    Have at it Steve with your “justifiable anger” and let the outrage fly.
    Just don’ t be a Holacast Denier as I had a family member never make it out of the Nazi death camps alive. He got too drunk one night and fell out of the guard tower.

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  20. Russ Steele Avatar

    Steven@03:09AM
    You wrote: “What a way to live an intellectual life, accepting only what one already believes, and believing only what one can accept. Kind of the recipe for the circle of stupid.”
    I understand the concept. This how you view global warming. You embrace the myth that humans can control the climate by reducing greenhouse gases, when human sources of CO2 have proven to be insignificant. The global temperature increase has paused for 18 years, yet the CO2 levels continues to increase. The real world data from satellites that measure the global temperature have demonstrated the climate models to be nothing more than a wild guess based on a collection of fudge factors, yet you still believe in the models and that humans can control the climate by reducing greenhouse gases. You ignore the scientific facts and accept only what you believe, a “recipe for the circle of stupid.”

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  21. George Rebane Avatar

    Administrivia – Gentlemen, it looks like it’s Doug LaMalfa time again. Unless someone can connect LaMalfa’s ag subsidies to the topic of this post, please take your recircumnavigation of that barn to the nearest sandbox where it belongs, and have at it.
    Re stevenfrisch’s 309pm++ – Well, it appears that our illustrious CEO of the Sierra Business Council is again monitoring the blogs, and re-ascending for us his progressive pillar of ‘historical truth, mind reader extraordinaire, and censor of the airwaves’. As so often over the years, he appears determined to serve as exemplar and Exhibit A for the arguments advanced on these pages. Regular readers will recall that now again the gentleman has performed well in that capacity. Since his remarks in their substance and expression are so exquisitely confirming of my ‘no middle ground’ arguments, I cannot pass up the opportunity to consider them more fully in an update to this post later in the day. But first, chores call.

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  22. Todd Juvinall Avatar

    Steve Frisch is totally ignorant on this issue. Unfortunately he is probably the recipient of the biased American educational system and is unaware this is 2014 not 1818. But he has my sympathy. My goodness how can someone born a 100 years after the Civil War think like him? He belongs in the crowd in Ferguson who are in a “back to the future” mode.

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  23. Gregory Avatar
    Gregory

    “What a way to live an intellectual life, accepting only what one already believes, and believing only what one can accept. Kind of the recipe for the circle of stupid.”
    Enough of the self referential parodies, Steve. Too funny!
    Slavery existed into the 20th century, Caucasians being bought and sold by Ottomans. They also weren’t thought as less than human, just lesser humans when compared to Moslems. Not unlike the way Progressives think about Conservatives… they need adult supervision and can’t think for themselves because if allowed, they’ll always do the wrong thing.

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  24. Paul Emery Avatar

    Yes Steve you are welcome to rebut Georges commentary.

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  25. Walt Avatar

    I call the Doug LaMalfa bet and raise one Dirty Harry on years of insider trading.
    Pretty much the richest Sen. on the hill. And on a meager Senator’s salary.
    There is more news of two faced LIBS. They preach huge minimum wadge increases yet in their own family businesses don’t pay what they now demand of others. ( or not at all..”interns”… Really??) But it makes good whoring for votes.
    If America is so damned “racist”,, just how did “O” get elected? Maybe Steve might want to crack open a history book. Forget it was the good ol’ Southern Democrat that wanted to keep slavery? Lincoln was a Republican. The KKK still is a Democrat ORG. No amount of revisionism is going to change that. Yet the likes of Steve want to paint Conservatives as anti minority.
    Funny how the Left is the ones that want to keep minorities on the dole and under educated. ” we know what’s best for you”. Any minority that subscribes to Conservatism is branded an ” Uncial Tom”, or worse.
    Right now in the South, they are running ads claiming Repub. candidates are pro lynching
    and will return Blacks to slavery. LIBS don’t care about truth.
    [This comment blatantly ignores my 842am plea to debate off-topic subjects in the sandbox. I have reposted this comment in ‘Sandbox – 21oct14’. Since I’m tired of this crap, additional off-topic comments posted here will be simply be deleted. gjr]

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  26. fish Avatar
    fish

    Posted by: Gregory | 23 October 2014 at 09:31 AM
    You shouldn’t hesitate to screw up their narrative further by mentioning the thriving collection and trade of native Americans…by other native Americans (read American indians) and the trade of black slaves by freed black indentured black property owners who owned on occasion…other blacks.
    He’s upset because you deny him his progressive “corruption of the blood” cudgel.
    Sorry Steve…it’s not a white problem it seems to be a human problem.

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  27. Walt Avatar

    Here ya’ go Steve, LIBs throwing the whole deck of race cards.
    http://dailycaller.com/2014/10/23/maryland-democrats-play-the-race-card-in-latest-mailer/
    Still waiting on your “evidence”….

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  28. Paul Emery Avatar

    George I beg to differ with you about the relevance of the laMalfa subsidies question. I am seeking to understand why LaMalfa gets a free pass from you to absorb the benefits of corporate welfare and still be a “Conservative” by your definitions as outlined above. I’m totally on topic here. You write
    “In the process the Left promotes governing structures based on all-knowing, all-powerful, expert elites who know what would benefit us and what we need in all phases and all stages of our lives. ”
    If it wasnt for taxpayer funded subsidies to the La Malfa family they would not be in the business they’re in pure and simple. It’s much like what you condemn Stephen Frish for.

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  29. stevenfrisch Avatar
    stevenfrisch

    Hey George I would welcome you making the case that in the interest of ‘states rights’ persons held in slavery should be patient and wait for their respective states to abolish slavery “in order to pace their own economic transition.” I am sure they would have gotten right to that when Breckinridge was elected President.
    You go ahead and defend that my friend.

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  30. Paul Emery Avatar

    It’s even more ironic that farm subsidies were created during the Roosevelt era as a temporary assistance to struggling farmers.
    From the Heitage Foundation
    “These subsidy programs tax working Americans to award millions to millionaires and provide profitable corporate farms with money that has been used to buy out family farms. ”
    http://www.heritage.org/research/reports/2002/04/farm-subsidies-for-the-rich-amp-famous-shattered-records-in-2001
    “If the newly elected Republican congressmen and senators are really serious about their desire for limited government, they should move swiftly to curtail the huge farm subsidy program. It has been a failure right from its start in 1933 under President Franklin Roosevelt. F.D.R.’s Agricultural Adjustment Act sought to cure the problem of overproduction of crops, and low prices for those crops, by paying farmers not to produce. If farmers were paid not to produce on part of their land, they would harvest smaller crops and that would in turn raise prices of those crops.”
    http://www.nytimes.com/roomfordebate/2010/11/21/do-farm-subsidies-protect-national-security/fdrs-disastrous-experiment

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  31. stevenfrisch Avatar
    stevenfrisch

    Paul, I just don’t think you get it…If I go on the air it is going to be to say that KVMR should not be giving a racist and cultural separatist a megaphone, and to cite specific instances of his supporting those views.
    You want to give me 5 minutes for that?

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  32. stevenfrisch Avatar
    stevenfrisch

    By the way, you Yahoos claiming I am ‘playing the race card’ should go back and read my original statement, my critique was that George’s comments were historically inaccurate, not ‘racist’. I may think George is a bigot, but I did not say it.

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  33. fish Avatar
    fish

    You want to give me 5 minutes for that?
    You probably should Paul…..but I’d keep one of those large off stage “hooks” from the vaudeville period ready for when Steve goes off the deep end. I estimate about 40 seconds into his rebuttal.

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  34. fish Avatar
    fish

    It’s even more ironic that farm subsidies were created during the Roosevelt era as a temporary assistance to struggling farmers.
    Just goes to show how hard it is to kill a federal program once it develops a constituency Paul. Why do you think they’re trying to build that rickety Obamacare edifice so quickly.
    Like street corner heroin…the first taste is free!

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  35. George Rebane Avatar

    PaulE 143pm – First, LaMalfa has never gotten a “free pass” from me when he supports the continuation of ag subsidies. This is a matter of record on these pages and in our conversations – you are most free to ask him directly about this. So let’s cut this misrepresentation (aka crap) of what my position is on such subsidies. For the understanding reader I have written much about how special interests on all sides game the government to subsidize their enterprises and inhibit competition to established businesses.
    One more time – the topic of the post it the ideological schism between the Left and Right for which there appears to be no middle ground. Contribute to that topic if you can.
    Your last statement is patently false, for it presupposes that the LaMalfa family is unique in its inability to grow rice seeds for a profit if existing subsidies were denied to all rice farmers. You have no basis for making that charge, save you are holding back some special information you have on the economics of rice farming in America. Along with other ag interests in the country, the LaMalfas have legally taken advantage of the misdirected largesse that the feds dispense. Yet LaMalfa is on record for opposing the continuation of such subsidies (especially in direct payments).
    Now please take this conversation to the sandbox or get back to the schism question, because by your diversion you are abetting SteveF’s tactic of avoiding what to the Left is a painful topic.

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  36. fish Avatar
    fish

    Paul, I just don’t think you get it…If I go on the air it is going to be to say that KVMR should not be giving a racist and cultural separatist a megaphone, and to cite specific instances of his supporting those views.
    Yeah….no accusations of racism there…..even where you accuse George of being a racist. Who again has the comprehension issues?

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  37. George Rebane Avatar

    Re stevenfrisch’s 154pm – It is worth pointing out that SteveF has nothing to contribute to this post, and once more confirms what I have more fully described in the above 23oct14 update. His real purpose, as the local mentor and monitor of socialist mores, is again an attempt to silence opposing voices, NOT to contend in the forum of ideas. It is a constant theme that has a long history, and very little hope of change in the future.

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  38. Paul Emery Avatar

    Okay-to the sandbox with my fallen Conservative view on the LaMalfa family sucking off the taxpayers tit.

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  39. George Rebane Avatar

    Russ 720pm – OK Russ, for lack of other takers I’ll throw in Shelby Foote in his three volume magnum opus Civil War who confirms my short summary of the antebellum sense of the South and the causes leading to war. Students of history may remember that Dr Foote was the celebrated and acknowledged leading historian on the war between the states.

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  40. drivebyposter Avatar
    drivebyposter

    I will say then that I am not, nor ever have been in favor of bringing about in anyway the social and political equality of the white and black races – that I am not nor ever have been in favor of making voters or jurors of negroes, nor of qualifying them to hold office, not to intermarry with white people; and I will say in addition to this that there is a physical difference between the white and black races which I believe will forever forbid the two races living together on terms of social and political equality.
    A. Lincoln

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  41. George Rebane Avatar

    For the record on the charge that I do nothing but celebrate Republicans and LaMalfa, one can just google or search RR on ‘LaMalfa’ or ‘Republicans’, examples –
    http://rebaneruminations.typepad.com/rebanes_ruminations/2014/01/farm-bill-gutted-compromised-and-castrated.html
    http://rebaneruminations.typepad.com/rebanes_ruminations/2012/03/the-candyass-republicans.html
    For the new reader, I am definitely a partisan and ideologue. My positions are here for all to see. Nevertheless, the Left makes continual charges the acceptance of which depends on the reader not checking for himself. It’s a great tactic of which I am but a minor target in their sights.
    Now a leading leftwinger (SteveF 154pm) in the county repeats the charge that I’m also a “racist”. A discussion of ‘racist’ that highlights the Left/Right variance in the definitions of that term would be most illuminating. Don’t hold your breath though, because all we get from the Left is ‘you’re racist because I say so’ and ‘…, and that remark was racist because I know what you really meant.” The ability to systematically analyze a meaning or a policy concept is absent from the Left. One might even conclude that such a deficit is one of the prerequisites of being a practising liberal.

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  42. stevenfrisch Avatar
    stevenfrisch

    Good thing it is not 1860 drive by poster.
    For someone in the 21st century to say that the southern states merely wanted to free the slaves on their own timeline is the ultimate historical revisionism and utter ignorance of conditions in 1860.
    The southern states sought right up until the civil war to extend slavery, to maintain its legal standing, to return escaped saves to captivity, to be free to punish slaves as property as they saw fit, and to get official recognition of those rights by the Supreme Court.
    States rights was the ‘states right’ to keep slavery–the southern states did not go to war for states right to declare the bluebird the state bird, or name a post office, or eat ice cream–they exerted ‘states rights’ to keep and extend the bondage, slavery, rape, torture, and oppression of human beings.
    For anyone to claim to the southern states sought to use ‘the constitutional guarantee of states rights to attempt secession in order to pace their own economic transition’, is utter bullshit.

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  43. Todd Juvinall Avatar

    Steve Frisch is the revisionist here. My goodness are you reading the Soviet version of American history?

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  44. Gregory Avatar
    Gregory

    “Paul, I just don’t think you get it…If I go on the air it is going to be to say that KVMR should not be giving a racist and cultural separatist a megaphone, and to cite specific instances of his supporting those views.”
    “I may think George is a bigot, but I did not say it.”
    Only two minutes separated the above two statements from Stephen Frisch, both regarding the same George Rebane. Somehow, I can’t see how one could say a man is a racist and a cultural separatist without the implication that they aren’t bigoted. There are just too many overlaps in the word definitions.
    Stephen Frisch, CEO of the wretchedly misnamed Sierra Business Council, this is amazing even for you. How do you sleep at night?

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  45. stevenfrisch Avatar
    stevenfrisch

    Hey Todd, put this in your ‘states rights’ pipe and smoke it:
    http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/mod/1861stephens.asp

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  46. George Rebane Avatar

    Well, I think the point made in my piece about the two sides embracing separate histories is fairly well confirmed in this thread. However, the dialogue is further confounded by the erroneous reading/understanding of my and other commenters’ words that Mr Frisch brings to this thread. (And yes, re SteveF’s 1206pm link, there were people in the Confederate leadership who actually did assert that the Negro was a distinct subclass of humans. Most certainly those in such positions had to take that public stance at the beginning of the conflict. We don’t know whether they believed it or not, since, like the confederate VP, many of them subsequently served in Congress where belief in such subclass status was then not accepted as being politically correct.)

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  47. Todd Juvinall Avatar

    Steve Frisch, “States Rights”. Hmmm. Try this Stevie.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tenth_Amendment_to_the_United_States_Constitution
    I would suggest you are the person misreading the Constitution Steve Frisch. The Tenth Amendment smacks you right upside the head. So again I say, what version of the Soviet history of the USA are you an adherent of?

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  48. stevenfrisch Avatar
    stevenfrisch

    “But not to be tedious in enumerating the numerous changes for the better, allow me to allude to one other-though last, not least: the new Constitution has put at rest forever all the agitating questions relating to our peculiar institutions-African slavery as it exists among us-the proper status of the negro in our form of civilization. This was the immediate cause of the late rupture and present revolution. Jefferson, in his forecast, had anticipated this, as the “rock upon which the old Union would split.” He was right. What was conjecture with him, is now a realized fact. But whether he fully comprehended the great truth upon which that rock stood and stands, may be doubted. The prevailing ideas entertained by him and most of the leading statesmen at the time of the formation of the old Constitution were, that the enslavement of the African was in violation of the laws of nature; that it was wrong in principle, socially, morally and politically. It was an evil they knew not well how to deal with; but the general opinion of the men of that day was, that, somehow or other, in the order of Providence, the institution would be evanescent and pass away. This idea, though not incorporated in the Constitution, was the prevailing idea at the time. The Constitution, it is true, secured every essential guarantee to the institution while it should last, and hence no argument can be justly used against the constitutional guarantees thus secured, because of the common sentiment of the day. Those ideas, however, were fundamentally wrong. They rested upon the assumption of the equality of races. This was an error. It was a sandy foundation, and the idea of a Government built upon it-when the “storm came and the wind blew, it fell.”
    Our new Government is founded upon exactly the opposite ideas; its foundations are laid, its cornerstone rests, upon the great truth that the negro is not equal to the white man; that slavery, subordination to the superior race, is his natural and moral condition. [Applause.] This, our new Government, is the first, in the history of the world, based upon this great physical, philosophical, and moral truth. This truth has been slow in the process of its development, like all other truths in the various departments of science. It is so even amongst us. Many who hear me, perhaps, can recollect well that this truth was not generally admitted, even within their day. The errors of the past generation still clung to many as late as twenty years ago. Those at the North who still cling to these errors with a zeal above knowledge, we justly denominate fanatics. All fanaticism springs from an aberration of the mind; from a defect in reasoning. It is a species of insanity. One of the most striking characteristics of insanity, in many instances, is, forming correct conclusions from fancied or erroneous premises; so with the anti-slavery fanatics: their conclusions are right if their premises are. They assume that the negro is equal, and hence conclude that he is entitled to equal privileges and rights, with the white man…. I recollect once of having heard a gentleman from one of the Northern States, of great power and ability, announce in the House of Representatives, with imposing effect, that we of the South would be compelled, ultimately, to yield upon this subject of slavery; that it was as impossible to war successfully against a principle in politics, as it was in physics or mechanics. That the principle would ultimately prevail. That we, in maintaining slavery as it exists with us, were warring against a principle-a principle founded in nature, the principle of the equality of man. The reply I made to him was, that upon his own grounds we should succeed, and that he and his associates in their crusade against our institutions would ultimately fail. The truth announced, that it was as impossible to war successfully against a principle in politics as well as in physics and mechanics, I admitted, but told him it was he and those acting with him who were warring against a principle. They were attempting to make things equal which the Creator had made unequal.”
    I don’t know how much clearer one could be.
    So is it your contention Todd that the 10th Amendment trumps the other 9? or the principles laid out in our other governing documents? or the Supremacy Clause?
    My key contention, supported by the Vice President of the Confederacy itself in 1861, quoted above, is that the Civil War was not a war about states rights, it was a war about the southern states support the institution of slavery, that they did so knowingly, sought SCOTUS support for that position, sought to extend slavery into new states, and that without slavery they would not have cared a whit about their ‘states rights’ which they proved time and again in the antebellum era by supporting federal investment and control over banks, roads canals, trade, customs, and even extending the franchise to men who did not own property.
    That ain’t “Soviet’ history you rube, it is American history.
    The point I contended with George was the statement that the Civil War was a war over states rights, and his comment was that the south sought to exercise their states rights to free the slaves under their own timetable. They would have done, and sought to do, no such thing.
    The myth that ‘states rights’ was the cause was a construct of the post war era, and was the cornerstone of the white supremacists South’s resistance to Reconstruction, in particular it was a reaction to northern Republicans attempts to secure civil rights and liberties for newly freed slaves, in the form of the 13th, 14th and 15th Amendments.
    This states’ rights doctrine, rarely even mentioned before the Civil War, was argued not from the perspective of states having an individual right to allow slavery, rather it was argued from the position that slave owners should have the right to retain their property (slaves) in non-slave states and in the territories. which was the topic of the Dredd Scott decision. The idea of states having rights above and beyond the Supremacy Clause, which was decided in 1819, did not take concrete form until Reconstruction in the enactment of black codes by Southern states that sharply limited the freedom of African Americans.
    The states’ rights doctrine had the backing of Lincoln’s successor Andrew Johnson. Johnson opposed the Civil Rights Act of 1866 because it allegedly represented a “stride toward centralization and the concentration of all legislative power in the national government.” He also wrote separately that, “This is a country for white men, and by God, as long as I am President, it shall be a government for white men.”
    The states’ rights doctrine has no foundation in the era of Abraham Lincoln. The south seceded from the Union and fought the Civil War, not to uphold states’ rights, but to defend slavery.
    By the way how would you explain the fact that the South seceded before the new Republican government of Abraham Lincoln even took any action to restrict slavery in the south or any other institutions of Southern states? No action had even been taken that infringed what George contends was their states rights. As a matter of fact Lincoln, as was pointed out by someone else here, had explicitly stated that he would not seek to abolish slavery.
    Secession began well before Lincoln took the oath of office, which took place on March 4, following the election year, not January 20 as is law today.
    On December 20, 1860, delegates attending a secession convention in South Carolina voted for the “dissolution of the union between the state of South Carolina and other states, under the name of the United States of America.”
    By February of 1861, six other Southern states had followed South Carolina to secession. Lincoln’s declaration that he would not interfere with the rights of states to manage their race relations had no impact in the South.
    However, prompted by southern secession, in his July 1861 message to Congress Lincoln decisively rejected the idea that the Union was a dissolvable compact of states. “A power to destroy the government itself,” is not a power reserved to the states.
    If you want clear proof that the notion of states rights had nothing to do with it, read the actual Constitution of the Confederate States of America. The Confederate Constitution did not reserve for the states the power to accept or reject slavery, according to George the basis of secession and war. It prohibited its states from interfering with slavery. The Confederate Constitution declared, “citizens of each State shall be entitled to all the privileges and immunities of citizens in the several States; and shall have the right of transit and sojourn in any State of this Confederacy, with their slaves and other property; and the right of property in said slaves shall not be thereby impaired.”
    The Constitution also mandated that, “No bill of attainder, ex post facto law, or law denying or impairing the right of property in negro slaves shall be passed.“
    Need more?
    The Confederate Constitution even included a Supremacy Clause modeled on the U.S. Constitution declaring that laws and treaties of the Confederate government “shall be the supreme law of the land.” No ‘states rights’ in the Confederate Constitution.
    I don’t know how much clearer it could be to any actual thinking reader here, George is full of shit on this point. People should not perpetuate myths about American history rather than read and understand real American history. It is a disservice to our great country. We make mistakes; slavery was the original mistake; we corrected it at great cost; and modern proponents of states rights need to know its real history.

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  49. Todd Juvinall Avatar

    You need to read the Federalist Papers Steve Frisch. You apparently have no concept of why and how this Constitution was formed. My goodness, you CEO’s of non profits sure are overpaid if this is the extent of your smarts. Copy/paste elsewhere. You are no better than a parrot.

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  50. George Rebane Avatar

    stevenfrisch 213pm – And here I thought that we had already resolved this; but continuing it a bit more would perhaps be revealing.
    Your position seems to be that the South went to war not because of their commercial interests in maintaining their economy, but instead in high dudgeon of their self-evident principle (scripturally supported?) that Negroes were subordinate to whites. To me that seems to be the logical equivalent of blaming the skull shattering bullet for killing the victim, instead of the perp who pulled the trigger to launch the bullet.
    The school of history I attended teaches that such high principle of Negros’ subordination was a derived or synthesized one needed to argue and sustain the moral foundation for legitimizing the crucial labor factor in the South’s economy. To be sure, no matter the depth it was felt by the various classes in the South, the impact on the Negro in slavery was unchanged – his quality of life reflected that he was legally chattel. Bottom line – it started with the money, and everything followed suit to sustain its flow.

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