Rebane's Ruminations
September 2014
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George Rebane

Measure S to replace Nevada County’s current Ordinance 2349 specifying how medicinal marijuana (MMJ) has become our community’s latest cause celebre and also the casus belli between the pro and anti Measure S factions.  Measure S is a public initiative on the November ballot to replace the current 2349.  Both S and 2349 deal only with growing MMJ in the county.  Growing recreational marijuana (RMJ) for fun and profit is illegal everywhere in California.  Access to 2349, Measure S, and a side-by-side comparison of the S and 2349 provisions is available here.

Before S arrived on the scene, I never thought I would become so interested in the MMJ issue.  My thoughts on MJ and the legalization of drugs in general was declared some time ago (here) and should be no mystery to RR readers.  (Full disclosure: neither Jo Ann nor I have been or are marijuana users.)  My interest has grown in MJ use since moving to one of the world’s prime MJ growing areas, and becoming involved in the county’s politics primarily as a conservetarian blogger, commentator, and speaker.  So let me meander a bit on this latest dust devil on our main street that is trying to grow up into a cyclone.  I’ll try to be structured so readers can easily reference their comments to the various parts of this piece.

1. Last Tuesday (23sep14) there were two ‘information sessions’ on S and 2349 – one sponsored by the pro-S (at Nevada Theater) and the other by anti-S (at Rood Center).  I attended and reported on the anti-S affair.  Now the League of Women Voters will sponsor a debate on the matter on the eve of 16 October at the Rood Center.  (Apparently the same kind of debate as recently proposed by The Union and KVMR for the Rood Center was not as acceptable as the upcoming one by the LWV.  Oh well.)


2. The efficacy of MMJ for medical purposes, and the legality of prescribed use of MMJ are not an issue.  Only at issue are the factors surrounding the growing of MMJ.  The county’s position on growing MMJ revolves around neighborhood nuisance and enforceability factors.  The county maintains that the current 2349 strikes the proper balance between the interests of MMJ users, growers, and the growers’ neighbors.  The pro-S people maintain that 2349 is too restrictive, ambiguous, and does not provide sufficient supply for the county’s MMJ users.  (The insufficient supply aspect was raised in the 26sep14 Union by Ms Patricia Smith, president of the local Americans for Safe Access pro-MMJ group.)

3. To my knowledge no one knows the number of prescribed MMJ users in the county – is it in the hundreds, thousands, tens of thousands?  (Why don't we know it?)  Given the number of illegal RMJ grows in the county, and the frequent tell-tale smell of RMJ and RMJ users in the community, I assume that our recreational users number in the thousands and greatly outnumber the MMJ users.

4. Growing RMJ is arguably the largest and most profitable ‘agricultural’ business in the county, and most certainly the largest illegal revenue producing private enterprise.  Neither side disputes that RMJ money contributes significantly to the county’s retail economy, especially in its hospitality and ag supply sectors.  I want to insert here that both law enforcement (LE) and the drug cartels strongly agree in opposing the legalization of RMJ production and consumption for the same reason – it’s the money.  Both sides know how to manage their respective risks and play the cat & mouse game at the proper level of intensity to satisfy their constituencies.  Although the LE side must maintain the respectable visage and argue that drug enforcement, incarceration, and remediation bureaucracies are unique in that, unlike other government bureaucracies, they have no motivation to grow in size, scope, and power.  The cartels are not so burdened with respect to their profit motive.

5. Given the variety of MJ plants possessing different amounts/ratios of organic chemicals that are alternately beneficial for medicinal purposes as opposed to providing the desirable high for recreational use, our RMJ growers, with unknown frequency, pose as MMJ growers displaying posted prescriptions and certificates at their grows as called for by 2349.  The anti-S people summarize this in their slogan ‘It’s not about medicine.’  Remember, growing RMJ in California is illegal according to both state and federal law.

6. Sheriff Keith Royal readily admits that LE’s biggest problem is finding the right “balance” for MMJ grows that 1) satisfies the legitimate needs of MMJ users, and 2) the legitimate nuisance and safety concerns of the public.  To find this balance has been a ‘cut and try’ process since legal MMJ growing in various jurisdictions nationwide is a relatively new area of code enforcement.  The benefits of regulating MMJ grows under 2349 is that it is relatively easy to amend as the county gains experience and new considerations arise.  This is evident through the ordinance’s existing history of amendments.  The Board of Supervisors passed 2349, and as such they can amend it at their pleasure.  This is not the case for S.

7. A comparison of S and 2349 (see above) readily reveals that S greatly loosens the requirements on MMJ growers imposed by 2349, either through specific numerical pro-grower callouts or simply being silent on many factors affecting the grows and their neighbors.  Since Measure S will be a regulation by voter initiative, it can only be changed through another voter initiative in a future election.  Pro-S supporters answer that there is nothing to prevent the BoS to pass a new ordinance that dovetails with S (call it S+) and goes into more details on regulatory concerns that S left out or on which it is moot.  Besides the added confusion of enforcing the details of the then three sources of regulations (state, S, S+), this approach promises to be another full employment act for lawyers.  Disgruntled and/or cited growers can now sue the county for drafting the S+ ordinance in violation and contradiction of the people’s intent expressed in the more ambiguous or moot Measure S.  You no doubt see where all this will lead.

8. If there is any real evidence of problems with MMJ availability for prescribed patients, I had neither seen it nor heard about it.  There was no mention of such a shortage last Tuesday at the Rood Center, and I specifically brought it up to the pro-S contingent present.  Be that as it may, there certainly is enough of the stuff grown locally to keep at least all of our MMJ users going 24/7.  So if access is the problem, ASA (it’s in their name) could eliminate that concern by starting a MMJ hotline that ‘patients’ can call and get the information where locally grown MMJ is most readily and affordably available.  Or maybe churches could band together – after all it’s to alleviate human suffering – and man a MMJ distribution center wherein users are properly vetted and registered so that things can go very smoothly when they come again to pick up their, say, monthly stash.

Having said all that, I want to remind readers that I do support legalizing the growing and use of RMJ as a regulated (and taxed) adult consumable similar to how we have established the means to produce, distribute, and consume other recreational drugs such as the various tobacco and ethanol (booze) products.  This is not the place to present all the studies done on MJ, especially the effects of regular and/or early use of RMJ.  Like ethanol, RMJ does make you dopey; you don’t have to be a consumer to verify that.  And like smoking tobacco, smoking RMJ is noxious to many bystanders.  But again, we have laws and ordinances that can deal as effectively with RMJ as they deal with society’s other legal recreational drugs.

Before California makes RMJ consumption legal, we should continue to learn from the Colorado and Washington RMJ experiences.  I believe it is just a matter of time until RMJ becomes legal, no matter the opposition from the LE and criminal cartel industries, because we will literally run out of money if we continue playing cops and riefers.

So there you have it.  I oppose Measure S because it looks, feels, and smells like a cumbersome legal bamboozle to promote an increased local supply of marijuana that can be grown with minimum impediments under the auspices of MMJ, while in reality expanding the sources (and illegal distribution) of RMJ.  After all, we are told that Nevada County is a renowned national supplier of the best marijuana on the market, a market which appears to be insatiable as long as RMJ is illegal.  We should try something else to control and regulate RMJ.  Right now 2349 works for MMJ, and it can be further and readily amended to find the ‘goldilocks boundary’ that balances the county’s legitimate MMJ, neighborhood nuisance, and community health/safety needs.

Posted in , ,

175 responses to “Thoughts on Marijuana and Measure S”

  1. Paul Emery Avatar

    George
    George your comments at
    Sheriff Royal said that “inspections” of private property would be complaint driven under 2439 during the Supervisors meeting that debated toe ordinance. It was a major part of the Sheriffs pitch before the vote . Also the nature and name of the person complaining need not be revealed. My somewhat dramatic statement that all the police need is presumed complaint of a bad smell is factually true. Unlike a criminal warrant to presumption that a crime is being committed is necessary.
    when the code enforcement team knocks on your door they do not have to show probable cause that a violation is being committed.
    You wrote today at 8:1 that ” On the issue of authorities’ warrantless search of private property. As explained to me by LE authorities, LE personnel are allowed to enter private property when they see from a public access vantage that there is a crime in process or criminal activity on private property. If no such evidence is apparent but LE still has reason to believe that there is criminal activity or evidence of such for a crime committed elsewhere, then they need a search warrant to enter and search the property.”
    That is about a criminal warrants. Your lack of discussion of code warrants made me believe you didn’t understand my concerns.

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  2. Paul Emery Avatar

    serious typo
    ” Unlike a criminal warrant requiring presumption that a crime is being committed to be issued,
    when the code enforcement team knocks on your door they do not have to show probable cause that a violation is being committed.”

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  3. D. Smith Avatar
    D. Smith

    Bill, the only problem is that you can only grow 6 plants in 600sq foot space, so if there are more than one recommendation needed you’re screwed…..

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  4. D. Smith Avatar
    D. Smith

    Oh, and one other thing….
    Nevada County has @2,200 school bus stops in their records, and considering that there are only 110 “active” school bus stops currently being used, but the county uses all 2,200 when enforcing this ordinance.
    Even though many of these bus stops have not been used since 1952.

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  5. Walt Avatar

    Check out google earth Paul, The same thing the county uses looking for un-permitted buildings. “probable cause”. A pot patch seen from an aircraft. ” probable cause”.
    Where dope is concerned there is no presumption of innocence that one is growing legally.
    The doper better be playing by the stated rules of MMJ.
    The smell of growing weed is now permeating from a location not far from me.. How the hell do I know if it’s just a legal grow or not? Dollars to donuts it’s not. It’s sure not a dead skunk rotting on the fog line.
    All a cop needs to do is park along the side of the road and inhale. ” probable cause”.
    Your against ANY way to distinguish the legal grows from the illegal. ( your Mendocino excuse)
    You better figure out how to get your legal growers to make themselves known to LE.,
    otherwise don’t bitch.
    The “man” isn’t after the four plants in the back yard. ( which is plenty for the average MMJ user. I know..)

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  6. Bill Tozer Avatar
    Bill Tozer

    Mr. Paul. Warrants, warrants. Enshrined in our Constitution. Probable cause and all that stuff. We don’t own the air above our homes. Even North San Juan Jerry Brown agrees that we need to give law enforcement every tool to nab the bad guys. His experience as Mayor of Oakland taught him a thing or two about society’s criminal element, the scourge of a civilized society and threat to the moral fabric necessary for democracy to survive
    http://news.yahoo.com/california-governor-vetoes-drone-warrant-bill-042151386.html?soc_src=copy

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  7. Bill Tozer Avatar
    Bill Tozer

    Ms. Smith. I won’t be screwed. 6 plants is more than adequate if I choose to legally
    cultivate marimangina. That’s 9 pounds plus of dope. More than enough. Nobody smokes dope 24 hours a day, especially since the very ill sleep so much. If I were to obtain a second prescription for a terminally ill family member or a homeless disabled Nam vet, 10 plants would fit nicely in a 600 square foot garden with room for the riding lawnmower to drive around the pot plants. That’s over 15 pounds of dope, perhaps 18 pounds. How many ounces to a pound?
    I must thank you, Ms. Smith, for making my point. State law says 6 marihuana plants and you want 2 scripts. Give some people an inch and they take a mile. Always pushing the envelop. Like arguing with a teenager whose frontal lobe had not fully developed over curfew. Thank you again for making my point.

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  8. Brad C. Avatar
    Brad C.

    Bill, it sounds like you have a green thumb, But those production numbers you are throwing around are arbitrary, made up numbers.
    What does a patient do when, all of a sudden, the county “takes” their property rights away by arbitrarily coming up with the “bus stop” setback? They have to find a caregiver. So, that is where a caregiver comes in – and they need more room to grow in order to help the people who rent (and respect landlord’s wishes not to grow on the rental property), and those excluded by the size and/or locatlion of their dwelling property.

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  9. Walt Avatar

    Uh,, No Brad, those numbers are pretty good. Been there, done that.
    The setbacks are no different than the “setbacks” on shooting on one’s own property.
    That constitutes “taking” too,,, doesn’t it? ( as I recall you bitched about hearing gunfire.. But the smell of dope for three months out of the year 24/7 is OK in your book.)

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  10. George Rebane Avatar

    PaulE 1022pm – (I believe you’re referring to Ordinance 2349 not 2439.) At last week’s meeting the sheriff reiterated that their enforcement of 2349 is complaint driven. But that a smell from a legal grow is not sufficient grounds for issuing a citation for “abatement” (i.e. chopping down the plants). If the grow is legal, then the sheriff said that “we walk away”. That is pretty much as it has been for ordinances covering a gazillion other manufacturing processes and constructs on private property for at least a hundred years. Pro-S people don’t complain that their legal grows are egregiously inspected; their complaints center around 2349 being too restrictive in how many plants can be grown where.
    Your implied point is that somehow 2349 has more onerous provisions that give rise to inspections than will S. But your crickets answer on this point, and inspecting the details of S doesn’t support this claim, explicit or implied. So again, what is you point in bringing up the inspection issue that has not been a concern of legal MMJ growers?
    And DSmith’s 1058pm concern is unwarranted until we know how many people in the county are legal MMJ users, and moreover, is there any record of our legal MMJ users not being able to satisfy their prescribed medical needs? The same commenter’s 1102pm goes off the rails on the school bus stop claim. The Union annually publishes the current year’s bus stops, and 2349 provides only for the current working bus stops, not a legacy list that goes back to 1952. Another wild claim for which evidence is needed.
    BradC’s 836am represents a real situation, but we don’t know how often that happens. It is though a pleasure to see a liberal suddenly argue for property rights when their life is a litany of supporting government’s rollback of property rights in all other aspects. (‘You can’t just one day set up a pig sty in your backyard in the middle of a developed neighborhood, now can you?’) In any event, since MJ is easy to grow and so prolific in the county, removing one legitimate MMJ user’s ability to grow on their property should not pose too much of a problem since other sources of MMJ abound. However, such a sudden restriction would put a hitch in the MMJ user’s ability to generate a little extra income by selling her excess into the RMJ market. Again it is the numbers that define the problem. And remember if the data supports it, the BoS can simply amend 2349 as yet another tweak to rebalance between the legitimate MMJ use, neighborhood nuisance, and community health/safety need. Not possible with Measure S.
    I again draw your kind attention to my 804am, 944am, 841am comments which expand on the real differences between 2349 and S, most of which understandably draw crickets from the pro-S folks.

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  11. Bill Tozer Avatar
    Bill Tozer

    Brad, sucks to be them. Or, just go out and buy a big Rancho de Grande. There is always a solution to every problem. Like if you don’t like the fact that your neighbors are cutting down tress on their property which you have enjoyed looking at for years out your kitchen window, just go buy their land. Simple and uncomplicated. Or go build a greenhouse and do the year round thang.
    Yes, I do have a green thumb, but my forte is succulents and now native wildflowers from the Great Plains, New Mexico, Turkey, South Africa’s only ski resort, Syria, and my latest addition is two perennials from the western slopes of the Himalayas. I love perennial flowers that grow in harsh environments. Takes way less water, low fertility soil, less work and more bang for the buck in this soil.. And longer blooming season. Thank you for asking.
    As far as growing marihuana, too much work and I don’t care for annuals, not even California Golden Poppies. To each his own.

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  12. Bill Tozer Avatar
    Bill Tozer

    Ps to Brad. From my prior wayward days of yore, if you ain’t getting at least 1.5 pounds of trimmed bud per plant you are in the wrong business. I just gave that stuff away and never saw a penny. Grew only for the learning experience and challenge and don’t like pot. Natural high from flower gardens and bird/wildlife watching is my drug of choice, but I digress again. Of course, if you started late and planted Indica in the middle of June, you can only expect a pound per plant. Gotta grow them for bud, not leaf, and nothing like those foot long colas glistening in the sun. Well, almost as nice as my perennials coming into there own when everyone’s flower garden looks like crap with 3 foot gorgeous flower stalks swaying in the wind in the dog days of summer. Weed ain’t a challenge.
    But, my guerrilla growing days are behind me know, I have so much more to think about…deadlines and commitments, what to leave in and what to leave out…Hey, that would make a good song. Gotta go. The maid and the housekeeper are fighting again. I knew I should have never hired ex Playboy Bunnies. They are high maintenance I tell ya.

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  13. Paul Emery Avatar

    George write:
    ” But that a smell from a legal grow is not sufficient grounds for issuing a citation for “abatement” (i.e. chopping down the plants).”
    Correct George but it does qualify for a search of the odorous property upon which an abatement can then be issued. I can’t believe you are supporting an ordinance that allows Police to search private property based on a smell. Once again I have to note that the “complaint” need not be included as part of the record justifying the search. I was not comparing ordinances only commenting on the nature of the beast we have created in 2349, something ignored by our so called champions of property rights.
    Once again George would you be supportive of Cul;tivation being a cottage industry in Nevada County if RMJ were legalized?

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  14. Don Bessee Avatar
    Don Bessee

    The pot profiteers pet shark munkelt has filed suit to delay the distribution of sample ballots and to suddenly change the language because they don’t think its fair???? Hearing 830am Oct 1st. Does this ever smack of desperation since they are loosing in the court of public opinion and lost their last injunction try just a week ago. Their show at the NC theatre was a dud and the media has too much brad pecimer-glasse, ASA’s VP for profit pot farm case as well as excellent editorials that tell too much truth for the ASA’s taste. Oh, but they have to be treated special and don’t have to follow any rules because its all about patients right? They have had the language for quite a while so why now? What’s next, injunctions on everyone to stop telling the world what measure S does and does not do in the real world? Just a note of clarification, 2349 is a code issue and not criminal, when deputies visit a property after a neighbor complaint they are not going on a criminal issue, just like code coming out and confirming too much solid waste that needs clean up. If the sheriff encounters a criminal issue they have to back off and call for a judges search warrant. Two very different processes.

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  15. Paul Emery Avatar

    One more thing George, why is it important to know the number of MMD in Nevada County in relation to the availability or product? Cultivators can legally grow for person or collective in the state provided they have legal recommendations.
    “And DSmith’s 1058pm concern is unwarranted until we know how many people in the county are legal MMJ users, and moreover, is there any record of our legal MMJ users not being able to satisfy their prescribed medical needs? ” Rebane 9:19

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  16. George Rebane Avatar

    PaulE 1009am – Since I’m not making any headway, perhaps reading DonB’s 1026am might help. Your crickets continuing to imply that S will somehow fix the property rights problem says it all about the thrust of your inquiry.
    Re my supporting MJ cultivation as a cottage industry, I’ve already answered that many times in my general support of legalizing RMJ. So one more time – yes, presuming RMJ consumption is legalized, I would support such a cottage industry if it can be regulated so as to balance the neighborhood nuisance and community health/safety concerns. (Much in the same way I would support any residential manufactory/shop that doesn’t lower the neighbors’ QoL.)
    Re your 1026am – Paul, you’re not reading my comments. I already responded to that need to inform voters of the salient facts surrounding an item on which they are asked to vote. You and the S people claim that there is a MMJ access problem in Nevada County. Where is the evidence for the scope and magnitude of such a problem? Numbers instead of emotional hot air please.

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  17. Bill Tozer Avatar
    Bill Tozer

    Paul, you have the first post on this thread and you started right off the bat by saying you are opposed to both ordinances. That is clear. You just don’t want the cops involved. What, you expect the honor system to work? I believe you have too much faith in the human condition and some thing like we are all born good. Perhaps in the company you keep all folks want to do good and be honest and play by the rules, but that is not the case in some of the circles I use to run with.
    Since this person is now deceased, I will tell you a story. Chap died at 41 years old and I saw his obit in TheUnion a couple years back. Had a neighbor that was wailing on his nympho girlfriend I nicknamed Miss Piggy. She was crying out for help. At first I thought they were having their usual wild loud kinky sex, but the cries for help grew louder and I knew he was really thumping on her. So, I called the police. The dispatcher asked if I wanted to remain anonymous and I replied “yes”. The cops came, questioned the suspect and victim and hauled him off in handcuffs. That was a case of a citizen’s complaint who was not named. Good thing for me and the victim as he was a bit on the angry high spirited side. Even later had a neighbor come to the door who never been over before and said “I want to thank you on behalf of all the battered women for what you did.” Don’t know how she found out, but she did.
    Nothing different than someone calling in anonymously for a child welfare check or reporting a possible meth lab. But you say keep LE out of it. I would rather deal with LE any day of the week than with the building department or health code county Nazis running amok. At least LE are reasonable, trained to deal with conflict and have the freedom to show discretion and turn a blind eye on a case by case basis.
    I have heard whiners scream bloodily murder that LE were harassing them when citing them for a taillight or being over zealous. Never mind the whiners were in the wrong. My experience is not that way in the least. They have never been jerks to me in the least. Can’t tell you how many LE officers from all parts of this nation have let me go with a fix it ticket or told me to take care of an expired tag without a search or being nonprofessional. The only times I ended up on the cement floor of the pokey is when I was being a confrontational jerk and deserved big time more than I got. Show respect to the uniform, call them sir (even to the young kids) and they always respond In kind and call me Mister. Let them know off the bat you are a good guy not one of the bad guys and tell them the truth.
    Heck, I got pulled over by an Auburn LE going 51 in a 25. The officer asked if I noticed the 14 foot construction signs saying 25 mph and I said no. He asked me how fast I was going and I told him I was going 51 when he got behind me. He ran the check and came back and said because I told him the truth, he was letting me go with a warning and the usual drive safety talk.
    Noticed the recent pro S dude got a misdemeanor charge of resisting arrest tacked on. Bet he was being a jerk. He had to submit to an inspection (not participate) and now he has the IRS on his tail. Not good Maynard….could have ended up better for him if he used some common sense. LE is not the enemy. Hiding the truth is the enemy.

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  18. Paul Emery Avatar

    George
    I must correct you. I am not an “s” person. I only asked why is the knowledge of local needs a “salient fact” to decide how to vote on this matter?
    You still are avoiding the property rights issue of 2349 that allows the entry searching of private property without a search warrant. I take it by your silence that support such applications of the hammer of law enforcement options.
    Besse confirms the scenario I have described. Smell complaint-search of property. Thanks Don for the support.
    Also George your 10:37 seems to imply support for the EIR process that you spoke against when it came to the San Juan Mine. You are more of a socialist than I thought when it comes to your back yard.
    “I would support such a cottage industry if it can be regulated so as to balance the neighborhood nuisance and community health/safety concerns.”

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  19. Don Bessee Avatar
    Don Bessee

    Wrong Paul, I am not confirming that a smell complaint results in a property search. It only allows inspection of the pot patch, again, if there are criminal issues they have to meet the threshold for a judge to issue a search warrant. That allows a full property search, not 2349. You are playing martin webbs game and trying to mix the criminal aspects with the land use issues. This is a land use issue and nothing more. S is all about profits and not patients no matter how often the big lie is repeated.

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  20. George Rebane Avatar

    PaulE 1103am – With that logic, reasoned discussion goes off the rails. I in no way support what today is “the EIR process” – it is abhorrent from all angles. But I do support common sense conservation or established life styles and the environment. Today’s EIR process is bereft of common sense and does nothing but serve the interest of what we may label as Agenda21 proponents.
    You have ignored my 1037am so there is no profit in circling that barn again, and crickets are still responding to Measure S’ implied solution to the property rights problem.
    But the fundamental aspect of these left/right discussions is that the Left has no understanding of a nuanced solution, it is either a 0 or 1. For progressives only binary alternatives exist – if one eschews a 0, then he must clearly be a strong advocate for 1, and vice versa. To proceed profitably we must bring in such things a culture, tradition, situational judgment, … that have long organized society in place of the crappy crafting of detailed laws and codes which prove totally inimical in their application. In light of this, it’s tough to make progress.

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  21. Paul Emery Avatar

    Don
    You are falling off the edge here. In order to find the pot patch you have to search the property. Jeez, that’s simple to understand. those who have had checks all say that their entire property is checked including their house, garage and outbuildings. If that’s not a search what is?
    George
    I am not a supporter of Prop S so why should I have to defend it?
    George, what kind of “process” do you envision that would fulfill your vision as expressed in your 10:37
    “I would support such a cottage industry if it can be regulated so as to balance the neighborhood nuisance and community health/safety concerns. ”
    Sounds like the essence of an EIR to me. Can you elaborate or is it just a general idea that we should strive to live in harmony but if not bring in the bayonets.
    George, still no comment on violations of property rights as a result of 2349 enforcement.

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  22. Walt Avatar

    Dementia has set in, or Paul can no longer comprehend the written word. Seems that Irish swill has done it’s damage.
    The good Doc. has nailed it. LIBS crying foul where property rights and getting rousted by the “G” man are concerned. Welcome to that Socialistic utopia. Your getting a small taste of it. Now enjoy.
    Want to grow dope? Get a permit.

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  23. Walt Avatar

    I recall well when the “paulites” had NO problem with the ECO gang trespassing, looking for possible “endangered” critters, fauna, vernal pools, etc. when Izzy and the gang were pushing NH2020. Then the restrictions of “property rights” was the name of the game.
    What about the property rights when IMM was looking to give us jobs? Or the property rights of the Blue Lead Mine? What was used to run them out of town? Nuisance claims. “noise.. dust, quality of life of thy neighbor.”
    Now when it’s YOUR ox that’s being gored, you cry from the tallest of the trees about “property rights” and “regulations”.
    MY O MY… How the tune has changed.

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  24. Paul Emery Avatar

    Gosh Walt
    You guys were my hero’s standing up so proud and strong against the evils of of big government and assaults on our property rights. Whats a guy to believe in when hero’s turn to wimps because of pungence allowing the fumigtors to romp freely to eradicate the evil smells.
    I’m sure you would have no problem today with NH2020 enforcers entering private property because you have paved the way with your support of 2349. Don’t complain when the same tactics are used for other reasons.

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  25. A. Patriot Avatar
    A. Patriot

    Big Lie, Don? Is this willful manipulation of the Ballot process by the Supes, Sheriff and maybe County Counsel? Maybe this needs to be reviewed by the State Attorney General’s Office. If this is found to be the case, they need to be censured or impeached. If guilty of these egregious violations of the very principles this country was founded on, they have committed a crime against every citizen of this county and they should also be held liable for any costs incurred by the Taxpayers. http://yubanet.com/regional/Proponents-file-legal-challenge-to-ballot-language-for-Measure-S-and-motion-to-delay-mailing-ballots.php#.VCm2uBbp9io

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  26. Paul Emery Avatar

    George
    To make this simple I am not a supporter of prop s types of endeavors because it is not the job of citizens to write laws. It’s the job of our elected representatives. I would have been in total support of a citizens repeal of 2349 through the initiative process to send it back to the Supes for a rewrite or natural death.

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  27. Walt Avatar

    Well Paul,,, one big, important thing is DOPE,,IS,, ILLEGAL!!!!! unless you can prove it’s for medical. Good GOD man. Are you mixing that Irish whiskey with 1969 vintage LSD?
    We know how mining is trying to be outlawed, but the LIBS have yet to make it so.
    Better dig out that illegal gold within that box your pecking away at. Lose that cell phone as well.
    As they say,, “what’s good for the goose,,,,, ” Go back in LIB time and see all the restrictions of property rights your side of the fence has already imposed. And now you bitch about this one lone issue?
    Yes,, that pony tail has been pulled way too tight.

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  28. Don Bessee Avatar
    Don Bessee

    A. Patriot? Really? Sounds like a pot profiteer. It seems the gang who cant grow straight is just at the same old, same old. First its we are going to have an out of cycle ballot prop if you don’t do what we say and cost the County 100k. Then its the first law suit that went no where. Now we have a wild swing a week ago for an injunction that again went no where, that they did not want to talk about after failing. Now we have another munkelt desperation play. Considering how poorly he did in abatement hearings the profiteers have never fared well in court. We shall see if the streak continues wed. wont we. BLAH BLAH BLAH sounds like Braad Picemer-Glasse when he said he was going to sue me, French, Supervisor Schofeld and the Sheriff and take away our homes and cars and pensions. How’d that work out brad? Listen to Sheriff Royal on KNCO Thursday Oct. 2nd 1 to 2pm on Measure S.

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  29. Paul Emery Avatar

    Walt
    Growing MJ is not illegal if it’s for medicinal purposes and documented with recommendations. If it’s sold for recreational purpose then it’s a law enforcement problem so let them figure it out. 2349 has nothing to do with that. It you have the scripts you can grow six plants per recommendation and be in compliance with State law.

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  30. George Rebane Avatar

    PaulE 131pm – for that same reason I will not start ‘writing’ and then debating MJ cottage industry regulations. Life’s too short, but I will evaluate what the pros have written.
    Since I too believe that 2349 can be improved, a “citizens repeal of 2349” sounds interesting. Am not sure in what order things would happen so that there remains some basis in the interval besides the inadequate MMJ provisions in the state and follow on case laws. Maybe that is still something to consider after S is defeated. But I’m still interested in what the problem is with the current 2349 that the BoS cannot fix through amendments (as radical as they need be, including rewriting the damn thing completely).

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  31. Walt Avatar

    ” unless you can prove it’s for medical” Miss that part Paul? Your getting to the point where the term “certifiable” may come into play. It’s just about strait jacket time, and a 72 hour evaluation may be in order. ” What does this ink blot look like?” What does this sentence say, and what do you think it says?”
    Did Keach share that Labrador joint with you at the Celtic fest?
    It’s time you spend some time back on the illegal war front. You say you don’t smoke dope, but by the looks of things here,, that is more than questionable.

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  32. A. Patriot Avatar
    A. Patriot

    Don, you miss the point entirely as you often do. My post did not concern pot, either recreational or medicinal. It concerned the potential manipulation of a Ballot Measure by elected officials and improper use of their office. What the ballot is/was about is moot. The point is that willful manipulation of the process via the presentation of biased information is reprehensible, and elected officials should be called to task for violating our trust.

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  33. Walt Avatar

    A.P. You mean like the LIBS in Sac. do all the time? Plenty of ballots measures have been passed, then one LIB judge nullifies all those votes.

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  34. Paul Emery Avatar

    Pretty simple Walt. You don’t seem to have a comprehension of the State Law as it is currently practiced. You have obviously had more recent exposure to the effects of herbal medication than I have so perhaps that contributes to your difficulty in understanding the details of the law.

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  35. Don Bessee Avatar
    Don Bessee

    A. Patriot, given the language has been available for nearly 2 months one has to wonder what novel legal theory you are trying to parrot with your evasive 220pm post. Of course its all about the issue at hand. The ASA flat out lied in theirs but the point is they are ballot ARGUMENTS. Duh. Something tells me you did not vote for any of the Supervisors who signed the No on S statement, perhaps T.L. who just lost? What evidence do you present to support your blather?

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  36. Walt Avatar

    LOL Paul,, Your the one who thinks it’s a right to grow dope. Hell. You can’t comprehend a sentence. Nice case of tunnel vision. What part of ” if you can prove it’s for med.” didn’t you understand?

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  37. A. Patriot Avatar
    A. Patriot

    Don, Obviously it is not up to me to present evidence, that is and will be handled by attorneys. What I’ve seen published publicly is enough to convince me. I’m very interested in your evidence to support the lies you allege, so that I may consider whatever you have fairly. Go on, make my day. It seems to me that you have also had the ASA argument for quite a while, so why have you not legally challenged their statements? The language to be used in presenting the Ballot Measure seems to be clear, and it seems clear that it must be unbiased. Obviously arguments for and against are biased, that is EXACTLY why public officials are prohibited from using THEIR OFFICE to influence voters. What they do personally is not my concern. No, I didn’t vote for T.L. I’m not in his district. I also don’t see what I’m evading. It’s really hard to see how your drivel about profiteering, a guy named Brad and getting sued for your house, car and pension fits into all this.

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  38. Walt Avatar

    Paul. It the sheriff fighting an “illegal war” on pot growers?

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  39. Don Bessee Avatar
    Don Bessee

    Brad,Martin and the pot profiteers propaganda chief Pattie have everything to do with this. You have clearly failed to read the motion. The main argument is that it is false that S will increase the amount grown, no really that’s munkelts claim. His unique focus is on the R1,2,3 zones. Yet fails to address the fact that RA who’s primary function in land use code is residential will be dumped in with AG land that has a secondary residential use and a massive increase in grows. In addition they fail to address the time bomb in Measure S and that’s the switch of zones airport, commercial, business park, SDA and industrial suddenly go from NO grow zones to NO LIMITS OF ANY KIND. Then there is also issue of allowing indoor and outdoor grows on the same property. As is always the case with the pot profiteers they hide behind the smoke screen and only focus as best they can on something fuzzy and out of context. I am confident that the County Council will remind the judge about those other zones that will have massive increases allowed under S. When you claim that elected officials engaged in the activities you claim you better show up with more than a link to the pot profiteers propaganda poo bahs press release.

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  40. Walt Avatar

    If it’s “all about the patients”,, what’s grown here, STAYS here. How bout those apples?
    Any selling out of the county should be unlawful. Add that to the mix. There is PLENTY grown in the state to “satisfy” the likes of Sac. Berkeley, S.F., L.A. San Diego,,
    We are not the only game in the state.

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  41. Bill Tozer Avatar
    Bill Tozer

    Mr. Paul, Mr. Walt did bring up an interesting question that you ignored. Please, pray tell, answer the question: What does this ink blot look like? :). Oh Walt, that one has me rolling no matter who it was directed at and Mr. Paul was a good sport about it. Progress has been made.
    Paul, when is your gig in November? I am going only because I said I would and a man is only as good as his word. Can’t wait to hear the talented Peter Wilson. Just play in the background and try to keep up there Paul and hit only a few sour notes. :). Might even let the maid out of the dog run and cut her loose on the crowd. A wild one she is and has that gay eye for this straight guy when she dresses me all up. First week in November is all I can remember. Getting old timers.When and where does the Wrinkle Village People Band play? I even will bring you a bottle of Irish Geritol to warm ye ole pumping.

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  42. Don Bessee Avatar
    Don Bessee

    You got it Walt! Our Water, Our Medicine, Our Patients First! That should be the Cry! Patties claims they do not have enough medicine are ringing off the hillsides and now munkelt argues in his moving papers that it is likely that pot production will go down if Measure S passes?!?!? Well like the old saying goes- how do you tell when a lawyer is lying? His lips are moving! 🙂 I need to get a legal opinion on this, perhaps we could ban exporting to help ensure our poor patients have enough medicine. That would cut production and help in the drought emergency wouldn’t it!

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  43. A. Patriot Avatar
    A. Patriot

    I need look no further than the County website and the ballot information published to find bias. Measure S does NOT read NO LIMITS of ANY KIND – that is a lie and a scare tactic. Measure S contains no reference to Airport, Commercial, Business Park, SDA and industrial areas. No doubt this allows the County to determine how they want to handle future legitimate businesses in these zones under commerce codes and business permitting, and protects the county from hamstringing itself when future economic opportunities, either medical or recreational (such as a much needed dispensary) are considered. This measure is about MEDICAL cannabis, cultivated by individuals and collectives, not about commercial enterprises in business parks.
    http://www.mynevadacounty.com/nc/bos/district1/Pages/Argument-Opposed-to-Measure-S.aspx
    http://www.mynevadacounty.com/nc/bos/district2/Pages/Argument-Opposed-to-Measure-S.aspx
    http://ballotpedia.org/Nevada_County_Medical_Marijuana_Cultivation,_Measure_S_%28November_2014%29
    http://www.theunion.com/news/13220456-113/county-measure-ballot-cultivation

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  44. Walt Avatar

    Mr. B.. I’m sure the answer would be a pot leaf. ( even though the true answer would be an “ink blot”.)

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  45. Paul Emery Avatar

    George
    I’m curious why you don’t comment on the enforcement tactics authorized by 2349 and how that affects property rights. Is this a practice you would consider to enforce other nuisance codes ? To date there have been hundreds of enforcement visits over the last three years. What is it that you feel justifies this kind of this kind of police action.

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  46. Walt Avatar

    “Production goes down if “S” passes? ” That makes as much sense as the Sun coming up in the West. Funny thing about “ordinances”,, if it doesn’t expressly say “NO”,, then anything “yes” is fair game. That’s how they work. If something is restricted “there”, yet there is no mention of “here”, that pretty much says “OK”. That’s how these games are played.
    That’s why plenty of laws are reams of paper deep.( in restrictions)
    At least shooting on ones property is written with basic language., and the amendment that followed to clear up the ambiguity.
    ( I made a copy and nailed it to my outside wall just in case I had an “inspection” by the sheriff.)

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  47. Don Bessee Avatar
    Don Bessee

    Someone please direct the ‘self proclaimed patriot’ to Mrs. R’s excellent break out, page 1, 3/4 of the way down. The County had nothing to do with measure S crafting so how can it reflect their plans? As County Council said last week at the Rood Center event, the reason there was No growing in those zones was they are for legitimate business and not pot growing that is supposed to be for personal use and non-commercial. Even though we all know its just about all illegal commercial growing for profit. We have a ban on dispensaries in all cities and unincorporated areas of Nevada County. Keep on trying to sell that this is just about medical weed. Just like the ASA’s VP kept trying to sell right on up the felony search warrant being served on his for profit pot farm. You guys are funny even if you have no sense of humor and just make us laugh with your ludicrous claims its all about patients and medicine.

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  48. Walt Avatar

    And just what “enforcement tactics” are you griping about Paul? Right now there is NO WAY to tell a legal op. from an ILLEGAL op. Yet you REFUSE to address that issue.( go ahead and revisit “Mendocino”…Again….)
    Don.. I’m surprised my little addition hasn’t been thought of before. ( What is grown here as MMJ, stays here as MMJ) It’s not that hard of a concept to brainstorm.
    Only the profiteers would take issue. Granny down in the Bay, can get it there, and that ten pounds for the year doesn’t need to be delivered from here. Mendocino sends plenty to the bay. The hills of San Jose put out just as much as we do, and shipping is a lot cheaper.
    Now lets here from the stoner section of just how “inhumane” my little plan is.

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  49. George Rebane Avatar

    PaulE 446pm – the hundreds of illegal RMJ grows in the county and the number of nuisance calls to the sheriff. That’s about as close as I can come to it.
    Walt 450pm and DonB 516pm – You are both on the mark, but that doesn’t mean that liberal minds are receptive to any of it. Nevertheless, this comedy turned farce needs to play itself out, and we need to be in there with counterpoints for the sake of readers who are still trying to decide how to vote.

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  50. Walt Avatar

    Seems even the “legal” grows are subject to the Rico Act
    “Just compensation” is no excuse for tax evasion. ( yet no one has defined “just compensation”) LIBS love taxes so how come they don’t want to PAY them?
    LIBS have despised “property rights” up until THEIRS gets trod upon. Just listen to Paul Howl! It’s just fine when mine property owners get the shaft.
    If a mine needs an EIR or any other new ag. operation, why not MMJ growers? What makes them special? MJ uses chemicals too. ( yes, fertilizer is a chemical) There are run off concerns into waterways. Grading permits? They haul in “fill” by the truck load,, What makes these guys immune?

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