Rebane's Ruminations
September 2014
S M T W T F S
 123456
78910111213
14151617181920
21222324252627
282930  

ARCHIVES


OUR LINKS


YubaNet
White House Blog
Watts Up With That?
The Union
Sierra Thread
RL “Bob” Crabb
Barry Pruett Blog

George Rebane

Measure S to replace Nevada County’s current Ordinance 2349 specifying how medicinal marijuana (MMJ) has become our community’s latest cause celebre and also the casus belli between the pro and anti Measure S factions.  Measure S is a public initiative on the November ballot to replace the current 2349.  Both S and 2349 deal only with growing MMJ in the county.  Growing recreational marijuana (RMJ) for fun and profit is illegal everywhere in California.  Access to 2349, Measure S, and a side-by-side comparison of the S and 2349 provisions is available here.

Before S arrived on the scene, I never thought I would become so interested in the MMJ issue.  My thoughts on MJ and the legalization of drugs in general was declared some time ago (here) and should be no mystery to RR readers.  (Full disclosure: neither Jo Ann nor I have been or are marijuana users.)  My interest has grown in MJ use since moving to one of the world’s prime MJ growing areas, and becoming involved in the county’s politics primarily as a conservetarian blogger, commentator, and speaker.  So let me meander a bit on this latest dust devil on our main street that is trying to grow up into a cyclone.  I’ll try to be structured so readers can easily reference their comments to the various parts of this piece.

1. Last Tuesday (23sep14) there were two ‘information sessions’ on S and 2349 – one sponsored by the pro-S (at Nevada Theater) and the other by anti-S (at Rood Center).  I attended and reported on the anti-S affair.  Now the League of Women Voters will sponsor a debate on the matter on the eve of 16 October at the Rood Center.  (Apparently the same kind of debate as recently proposed by The Union and KVMR for the Rood Center was not as acceptable as the upcoming one by the LWV.  Oh well.)


2. The efficacy of MMJ for medical purposes, and the legality of prescribed use of MMJ are not an issue.  Only at issue are the factors surrounding the growing of MMJ.  The county’s position on growing MMJ revolves around neighborhood nuisance and enforceability factors.  The county maintains that the current 2349 strikes the proper balance between the interests of MMJ users, growers, and the growers’ neighbors.  The pro-S people maintain that 2349 is too restrictive, ambiguous, and does not provide sufficient supply for the county’s MMJ users.  (The insufficient supply aspect was raised in the 26sep14 Union by Ms Patricia Smith, president of the local Americans for Safe Access pro-MMJ group.)

3. To my knowledge no one knows the number of prescribed MMJ users in the county – is it in the hundreds, thousands, tens of thousands?  (Why don't we know it?)  Given the number of illegal RMJ grows in the county, and the frequent tell-tale smell of RMJ and RMJ users in the community, I assume that our recreational users number in the thousands and greatly outnumber the MMJ users.

4. Growing RMJ is arguably the largest and most profitable ‘agricultural’ business in the county, and most certainly the largest illegal revenue producing private enterprise.  Neither side disputes that RMJ money contributes significantly to the county’s retail economy, especially in its hospitality and ag supply sectors.  I want to insert here that both law enforcement (LE) and the drug cartels strongly agree in opposing the legalization of RMJ production and consumption for the same reason – it’s the money.  Both sides know how to manage their respective risks and play the cat & mouse game at the proper level of intensity to satisfy their constituencies.  Although the LE side must maintain the respectable visage and argue that drug enforcement, incarceration, and remediation bureaucracies are unique in that, unlike other government bureaucracies, they have no motivation to grow in size, scope, and power.  The cartels are not so burdened with respect to their profit motive.

5. Given the variety of MJ plants possessing different amounts/ratios of organic chemicals that are alternately beneficial for medicinal purposes as opposed to providing the desirable high for recreational use, our RMJ growers, with unknown frequency, pose as MMJ growers displaying posted prescriptions and certificates at their grows as called for by 2349.  The anti-S people summarize this in their slogan ‘It’s not about medicine.’  Remember, growing RMJ in California is illegal according to both state and federal law.

6. Sheriff Keith Royal readily admits that LE’s biggest problem is finding the right “balance” for MMJ grows that 1) satisfies the legitimate needs of MMJ users, and 2) the legitimate nuisance and safety concerns of the public.  To find this balance has been a ‘cut and try’ process since legal MMJ growing in various jurisdictions nationwide is a relatively new area of code enforcement.  The benefits of regulating MMJ grows under 2349 is that it is relatively easy to amend as the county gains experience and new considerations arise.  This is evident through the ordinance’s existing history of amendments.  The Board of Supervisors passed 2349, and as such they can amend it at their pleasure.  This is not the case for S.

7. A comparison of S and 2349 (see above) readily reveals that S greatly loosens the requirements on MMJ growers imposed by 2349, either through specific numerical pro-grower callouts or simply being silent on many factors affecting the grows and their neighbors.  Since Measure S will be a regulation by voter initiative, it can only be changed through another voter initiative in a future election.  Pro-S supporters answer that there is nothing to prevent the BoS to pass a new ordinance that dovetails with S (call it S+) and goes into more details on regulatory concerns that S left out or on which it is moot.  Besides the added confusion of enforcing the details of the then three sources of regulations (state, S, S+), this approach promises to be another full employment act for lawyers.  Disgruntled and/or cited growers can now sue the county for drafting the S+ ordinance in violation and contradiction of the people’s intent expressed in the more ambiguous or moot Measure S.  You no doubt see where all this will lead.

8. If there is any real evidence of problems with MMJ availability for prescribed patients, I had neither seen it nor heard about it.  There was no mention of such a shortage last Tuesday at the Rood Center, and I specifically brought it up to the pro-S contingent present.  Be that as it may, there certainly is enough of the stuff grown locally to keep at least all of our MMJ users going 24/7.  So if access is the problem, ASA (it’s in their name) could eliminate that concern by starting a MMJ hotline that ‘patients’ can call and get the information where locally grown MMJ is most readily and affordably available.  Or maybe churches could band together – after all it’s to alleviate human suffering – and man a MMJ distribution center wherein users are properly vetted and registered so that things can go very smoothly when they come again to pick up their, say, monthly stash.

Having said all that, I want to remind readers that I do support legalizing the growing and use of RMJ as a regulated (and taxed) adult consumable similar to how we have established the means to produce, distribute, and consume other recreational drugs such as the various tobacco and ethanol (booze) products.  This is not the place to present all the studies done on MJ, especially the effects of regular and/or early use of RMJ.  Like ethanol, RMJ does make you dopey; you don’t have to be a consumer to verify that.  And like smoking tobacco, smoking RMJ is noxious to many bystanders.  But again, we have laws and ordinances that can deal as effectively with RMJ as they deal with society’s other legal recreational drugs.

Before California makes RMJ consumption legal, we should continue to learn from the Colorado and Washington RMJ experiences.  I believe it is just a matter of time until RMJ becomes legal, no matter the opposition from the LE and criminal cartel industries, because we will literally run out of money if we continue playing cops and riefers.

So there you have it.  I oppose Measure S because it looks, feels, and smells like a cumbersome legal bamboozle to promote an increased local supply of marijuana that can be grown with minimum impediments under the auspices of MMJ, while in reality expanding the sources (and illegal distribution) of RMJ.  After all, we are told that Nevada County is a renowned national supplier of the best marijuana on the market, a market which appears to be insatiable as long as RMJ is illegal.  We should try something else to control and regulate RMJ.  Right now 2349 works for MMJ, and it can be further and readily amended to find the ‘goldilocks boundary’ that balances the county’s legitimate MMJ, neighborhood nuisance, and community health/safety needs.

Posted in , ,

175 responses to “Thoughts on Marijuana and Measure S”

  1. Paul Emery Avatar

    George
    I am not a supporter of either the current ordinance or Measure S and have much to say about your analysis that leads you to support 2349 but it will have to wait till after the Celtic Festival. I am surprised though that you support the enforcement process of 2349 that allows the Sheriffs department to search your property without a criminal search warrant needing only a “complaint” of a code violation to enter and search your property including your residence. This is surprising from a property rights activist such as you claim to be. By the way the “complaint” does not have to be revealed either to the person being searched or the judical officer to receive an “administrative” warrant. It is typical for the code enforcement officers not to have any warrant at al when they knopck on your door. It is almost without precedent
    that police are used to enforce nuisance codes. Nevada County had to pass a special ordinance to allow the Sheriffs Dept to take this action.
    This support of police authority to enter private property seems out of place for a man with your convictions. Can you explain why you feel it is OK to use such action in this situation?

    Like

  2. Walt Avatar

    Well let me add MY two cents…Paul,, There are more illegal grows than legal. Yet you don’t support ANY kind of of “registration to separate the two. ( go ahead and regurgitate the same Mendocino excuse) And just because illegal grows “support” the local businesses
    is no excuse for breaking the law. A pot plant in plain view is good enough for probable cause. Ask any layer. “property rights” has NO bearing on breaking the law. Even a high school educated ditch digger can understand that. How about a Berkeley Hippie?

    Like

  3. Paul Emery Avatar

    I thoroughly support the idea of registration but Walt how can you do it without self incrimination? What’s legal with the state is illegal with the country. Mendocino is not an excuse it’s a fact. Residents of that County were abiding by State and County laws and regulations but were busted by the Feds who used their “registration” to identify and arrest them. Same thing with requiring certicied landlords consent to grow. Those “consents” are filed with the County and could be used by the Feds to bust the landlords for conspiracy to commit a felony.
    How would you propose growers be registered without self incrimination?

    Like

  4. Paul Emery Avatar

    Everyone feel free to comment on my observation. It’s a very perplexing problem that needs to be solved before any real progress is made.

    Like

  5. Brad C. Avatar
    Brad C.

    I don’t think it matters if the end use of the product is RMJ or MMJ. Who are we to judge?
    I also don’t think it matters if there is, or is not enough MJ growing in our county for our own needs. Does Napa Valley only produce enough wine for the Napa residents, of course not. MJ grown in Nevada County can be sold anywhere in the California.
    If “Grass” Valley is the MJ equivalent of Napa Valley, should we not embrace that fact and promote it?
    Additionally, I doubt that Measure S is significiently mrore lenient than Yuba County’s regs right next door.

    Like

  6. Paul Emery Avatar

    I’m with you on that Brad. If Nevada County had any common sense, which it doesn’t, it would work with growers and establish cultivation as a legitimate agricultural cottage industry. Legalization for recreation is coming no doubt and would probably pass in November if on the ballot but it surely will be on in ’16 when there will be a higher voter turnout of likely supporters it being a Presidential year.
    Georges argument that there is plenty being grown for local residents is possibly true but what he fails to accept is that Nevada County has a legitimate legal industry growing marijuana for profit to service the hundreds of legal dispensaries and distribution outlets throughout the State. Why not embrace and create rules that support legitimate and conscientious growing as a cottage industry that will continue to bring millions of dollars to our rural residents in our County?
    The current Ordinance if effectively enforced would bring economic ruin to our County. I challenge those who disagree to go door to door in Grass Valley and Nevada City and candidly ask business owners their opinion of the economic impact of cultivation to our economy. There are untold numbers of mortgages dependent on cultivation. The Ordinance is not effectively enforced but to access the impacts of a regulation, and that what it is not a law, one has to look at the possible effects of enforcement, something that the Sheriff and Board of Supervisors refuse to look at.
    By the way Yuba County has an Ordinance very similar to Measure S and is suffering no harm from it.
    http://www.co.yuba.ca.us/Departments/Community%20Development/pubMC.aspx

    Like

  7. Walt Avatar

    What part of illegal (for profit) can’t you guys understand? Nevada Co. is balls deep in MJ. Legal(MMJ) and otherwise. After countless times of asking for just what constitutes ” just compensation” no one has come up with an answer.
    As for the landlord /tenant, just where is that written it gets “registered” with the Co.?
    Did I miss something? NO rental agreement is filed at the county clerk’s office.
    “The current Ordinance if effectively enforced would bring economic ruin to our County”
    Well it hasn’t yet,, nice try.
    How about legal industry? Like mining? logging? OH NO!! We can’t have that!! never mind that’s what made this aria to begin with. Those have been regulated right out of existence. But an industry that screws up people’s minds is just fine. Users of dope are unemployable. Every business drug tests, and an MJ script isn’t a pass. Even legal meds in most cases is a disqualifier. I know. I just went through that.
    Until the state and FED laws are changed, growing dope for profit is illegal.
    Ca.’s MMJ law was written and passed under the non profit provision. That was side stepped right out of the box.
    If it’s grown here, it needs to stay here. As stated before weed from here is smuggled all over the country, as well as from any other county in the state.
    Get caught growing more than is allowed, deal with the fallout.
    Want to grow? buy the property and don’t make your actions a liability for someone else.
    If a landlord doesn’t want dope grown on HIS asset, that should be his right. He is the one paying the taxes and liability insurance. Not the dope grower. The doper usually leaves, and the landlord is stuck with the damage and mess. Been there, done that.
    And so has plenty others.

    Like

  8. D. Smith Avatar
    D. Smith

    George,
    Measure S would have never happened if the BOS would have “amended” 2349, and they were ask to do so numerous times but they gave the ASA the middle finger, even after a court decision telling them to do so…..
    It make me sad that Walt is too dopey to see that his concerns should be handled much like when a renter has dogs/animals on a property, as these are handled through a rental agreement.
    Self incrimination in court is not a legal thing that any of us wants to be a part of.
    This consistent pounding of bedlam happening with rental properties is a issue that requires a landlord to actually do what they are supposed to do… Follow their rental agreements and not have the government wiping his ass because he’s too lazy to take care of his own responsibilities!
    Dave

    Like

  9. fish Avatar
    fish

    Everyone feel free to comment on my observation. It’s a very perplexing problem that needs to be solved before any real progress is made.
    You will probably fail this go around Paul. It won’t make any difference, weed will still be plentiful. At some point 5,6,7 years down the road when Taxifornia is really desperate for money, someone in the legislature will propose the legalize/regulate/tax scheme and this issue will largely be behind us (the bureaucrats are going to be disappointed in their take….which I find schadentacular).
    I imagine those who want to grow for personal consumption will be granted exemptions analogous to home brewers/vintners.
    It will suck for people in the legal (Hah!) system now who will still be prosecuted until things change but eventually legalization is going to prevail.

    Like

  10. Brad C. Avatar
    Brad C.

    Walt, I get it. You are pissed off that a dirt bag tenant trashed your rental property. But that is a landlord/tenant dispute. Have you talked to a lawyer about how to write a better rental agreement that would protect you in the event someone wanted to turn your yard or garage into a MJ garden?

    Like

  11. fish Avatar
    fish

    <i.Everyone feel free to comment on my observation. It’s a very perplexing problem that needs to be solved before any real progress is made.
    Oh crap….
    The federal implications. Once legal at the state level the State of California will probably need to defend their new revenue stream against the feds. This means multiple trials at multiple levels. I imagine they will prevail eventually but it will probably take another 10 years after either side forces the issue.

    Like

  12. George Rebane Avatar

    Gentlemen, most interesting and somewhat anticipated comments. First, a careful reader having read my piece and some of your (PaulE and BradC) remarks could conclude that you did not read what I have posted. To advance the discussion you need not attempt to make me sound as if 1) I didn’t support the legalization of RMJ, and 2) I didn’t know that NC is a major source of high quality RMJ nationwide, and 3) the growth of RMJ is a leading source of private sector revenues in the county.
    But what is clear that you don’t seem to grasp is that both 2349 and S deal solely with MMJ, the only kind that can be legally grown, distributed, and consumed in California. Even the pro-S people like ASA don’t promote the growth of ‘excess’ MJ for the RMJ markets and use it in their arguments. The PUTATIVE issue is only the growing of MMJ. Now we all know what the real issue is, and that is where you should step forward and clearly make the point to advance this discussion.
    Your real aim in supporting S is the same as that which will garner it the most votes in the county, and that is to relax MMJ growing rules so that more RMJ can be grown with less risk. Why not just come out and say it so we can get on with the debate on whether or not to vote for S? Such an argument for S would go with the general plan to get more people growing, distributing, consuming, and profiting from RMJ so that it will speed up the legalization of the weed into a minimally regulated environment. There is nothing to hide, we all know what the real purpose of Measure S is to be.
    BTW, it appears that BradC is really not up to date on the realworld rental situation, especially as it concerns renters and landlord rights. We all wish it were as he imagines it.

    Like

  13. Walt Avatar

    A rental agreement isn’t worth the paper it’s printed on when a tenant disregards it.
    Lawyer or no lawyer. Who has ten grand as a cleaning deposit? Think a dope grower is going to fork that over? LOL!!
    Once a person is in a rental good luck getting him/her out!! See you in court!! In six MONTHS!!
    Just who are you two trying to fool? My good guess is that neither one of you has ever rented to anyone. Yet you feel it’s a great idea to “F”over a landlord.
    Using grape growers is a piss poor example. It take a hell of a lot more time and effort to make wine in any quantity. ( and to even make a buck)
    Where booze in concerned (legal) every bit of it is accounted for. How about dope? ( ya.. right)
    Any “shiners” around these parts? They sure are not in it for the buck.( or medicinal excuses)
    BTW motorcycles are still not allowed in LWW either.( not sure of LOP) yet you think dope growing will be accepted? Fat chance.

    Like

  14. Brad C. Avatar
    Brad C.

    Let’s be fair, at least. I can hear the gun range from my house. It is an offensive sound. Guns and shooters of guns have been known to ruin lives,just like MJ, apparanty. But as the saying goes, guns don’t kill people, people do. Likewise, MJ doesn’t ruin lives, people do. The county transfer station also smells. Should we move the range and transfer station out of the county?

    Like

  15. fish Avatar
    fish

    Posted by: Walt | 27 September 2014 at 08:17 AM
    How did an illegal grow result in 10K worth of clean up?

    Like

  16. fish Avatar
    fish

    Posted by: Brad C. | 27 September 2014 at 08:22 AM
    Despite the most fervent hopes of the left, you still don’t have a right “not to be offended”….in any form. I don’t care much for the stink of the evil weed (in its pre-harvest glory or when it’s consumed) but I consider this trivial compared to the thuggish tactics the government employs to combat what is little more than a nuisance.

    Like

  17. Walt Avatar

    Well now.. The plot thickens.. A poll just came out in regard to legalizing weed.
    Last year it was 51%. Well not today… It’s down to 47 or so %.
    All they need to do is look to Colorado and see what it’s done there. And it sure isn’t pretty.
    Why don’t you guys call “O” and Co. , and instead of dropping bombs in ISIS,, drop bundles of Nevada County’s finest? They would be too stoned to fight, and even forget what they are fighting about. Cluster bombs filled with joints! Incendiary bombs that’s 70% dope The new “non lethal” chemical weapon. Just dope smoke’m.

    Like

  18. fish Avatar
    fish

    Posted by: Walt | 27 September 2014 at 08:34 AM
    Last week President O’Teleprompter was in the low thirties in a nationwide poll sponsored by someone……in a couple of weeks the MSM will dangle another “shiny object” in front of the electorate and he’ll shoot into the 50’s.
    Poll numbers…learn not to trust them.

    Like

  19. Joe Koyote Avatar
    Joe Koyote

    ” To my knowledge no one knows the number of prescribed MMJ users in the county – is it in the hundreds, thousands, tens of thousands? (Why don’t we know it?) — We don’t know this just like you don’t know if your neighbor takes Valium. Doctor-patient privacy issues.. We don’t know it because it is none of our business. My question to you is why do you think it’s our business? By what logic does one legally prescribed medicine (pharmaceuticals) differ from another legally prescribed medicine (pot) in terms of the public’s right to know who uses it or doesn’t?
    “Once legal at the state level the State of California will probably need to defend their new revenue stream against the feds.” — Has this occurred in Colorado or Washington? I have yet to read much negativity about Colorado, most stories are about how crime is down, people are happy and the state is making millions of dollars.

    Like

  20. fish Avatar
    fish

    “Once legal at the state level the State of California will probably need to defend their new revenue stream against the feds.” — Has this occurred in Colorado or Washington? I have yet to read much negativity about Colorado, most stories are about how crime is down, people are happy and the state is making millions of dollars.
    The feds haven’t forced the issue yet. The bigger the aggregate revenue stream the more tempting it will be for the thieves in D.C. (District of Criminals) to ignore. How it will manifest itself I don’t know. It’s coming.
    Revenue is lower than projections I believe. Not drastically. I also believe there have been some “teething problems” with crime. Drug related crimes are down but there have been increases in other areas (property crimes, petty theft, etc.).

    Like

  21. fish Avatar
    fish

    The bigger the aggregate revenue stream the more tempting it will be for the thieves in D.C. (District of Criminals) to ignore.
    Sorry….bad sentence.
    The bigger the aggregate revenue stream the more tempting it will be for the thieves in D.C. (District of Criminals) to involve themselves.

    Like

  22. Walt Avatar

    Seems Fish was looking into Colorado the same time I was. ( Hat’s off to ya’ )
    I did find that MJ related accidents involving death are up 56%.
    And also a few are using Paul’s excuse to end the taxation. ( that self incrimination cry)
    It got tossed out of court.
    http://www.denverpost.com/news/ci_26387324/marijuana-activists-argue-pot-taxes-violate-self-incrimination

    Like

  23. RL Crabb Avatar

    Fish 9/27@8:28 – How can a pot grow clean up cost ten grand? It’s government work. Wrote about a similar situation in my book, Scablands.

    Like

  24. fish Avatar
    fish

    Posted by: RL Crabb | 27 September 2014 at 09:36 AM
    They treat it like meth lab clean up then? I need to change careers and grease a few democratic politicians palms!

    Like

  25. fish Avatar
    fish

    I’m going to need to pick up a copy RL!

    Like

  26. George Rebane Avatar

    JoeK 843am – Thank you for that precious comment. It contributes to this discussion on two counts – the first, your misunderstanding what I wrote, and second, the further exposure of the liberal mind’s problems with coherent systems of government.
    Nowhere do I state my desire to know who is using MMJ. What I want to know is the aggregate number of MMJ users in NC, not the identities of the individuals using it – ‘how many’ does not equal ‘who’. (I’ll again just chalk this one up to careless reading, rather than lack of reading skills.) The astute reader knows that the significance of ALL social problems is based ONLY on the numbers that characterize them – the demogauging promoter would like you to ignore that and only concentrate on the emotional ephemerals. Therefore, if we voters are asked to vote on making social policy to alleviate some social problem, then we must be informed of the salient facts required to inform our decision.
    The total number of prescribed MMJ users is easy to obtain by asking prescribing physicians to report the number of new and renewal prescriptions they write, say, every quarter. I understand that they already do that on a number of specifically controlled/monitored drugs – just add MMJ to the list. So yes, it is indeed my right as a voter to know that aggregate number before I vote on S. And if that number cannot be cited by the proponents of S, then that is also information which tells me that they’re whistling through their south portal when crying wolf about the desperate need for S.
    As a progressive, you and yours have an extremely convoluted boundary between what you want government to know and not know. And as socialism makes headway in America, in the minds of progressives that boundary shifts markedly toward the government’s right to know just about damn near everything about us. We’ll keep an eye on how soon ‘how many’ shifts to ‘who’ on MMJ and the many other aspects of our lives.
    BradC 822am – And you have dropped another pearl. The easy difference between your offense at the sound of gunfire and the smell of growing pot is that the gun range is an established part of the county’s recreational infrastructure. People moving into its proximity do so with full knowledge that on certain days and hours they will hear their neighbors exercising their Second Amendment rights. If you already lived there and someone wanted to build a range nearby, you would have grounds for protesting that project. On the other hand, if you move into a neighborhood with no pot grows, and no prior warning that legal pot grows may sprout next door, then you may have a valid nuisance complaint, which you would not have had you moved in next to an established pot grow. Capice?

    Like

  27. Joe Koyote Avatar
    Joe Koyote

    My neighbor got busted a couple of years ago for 80 plants (no priors, no criminal record). My daughter, who was out running at the time, counted four black SUVs full of uniformed swat team types with automatic weapons drive by to arrest a 60 year old woman who was an underemployed contractor down on her luck. My daughter overheard the officers talking among themselves about how the grow was nothing near the size and quantity they were told was there, and how this must have been some kind of mistake. That’s how it costs 10 grand to clean up a grow, a lack of proper intelligence (of the information type not brainpower) and a total over reaction by law enforcement.

    Like

  28. fish Avatar
    fish

    Posted by: Joe Koyote | 27 September 2014 at 09:49 AM
    …and this is why it needs to be completely legalized! To combat the ham fisted tactics employed by your government.

    Like

  29. Todd Juvinall Avatar

    JoeK, if the SUV’s were driving by, how did your daughter overhear their conversations and also see they were carrying automatic weapons?
    I am told you can 99 plants with a recommendation anyway. And 17 pounds? Is this true?

    Like

  30. Walt Avatar

    RL.. My comment about a “ten grand deposit” for a potential renter is a direct reflection of the cost or repairs to my property. The piddly 1000 bucks that’s the”norm” sure didn’t cover it. Neither did my insurance.
    And what good would it do to sue? No bank accounts to go after, no assets to put liens on.
    The best I could do was post the persons name on a ” bad renter ” web site, and put photos up as proof.
    I guess I don’t need to worry about it anymore since I had to sell the damned place because I couldn’t afford the repairs. The guy that took it off my hands has yet to finish the repairs. And that was just shy of a year ago. ( Probably due to to those nice new building requirements when a permit is pulled.)

    Like

  31. Walt Avatar

    Well Joe,, it keeps adding to my point about registration of “legal” grows. Screw what Paul keeps yapping about against it. If the cops know your grow is playing by the laws they won’t come to breaks doors first and ask questions later. The fact remains there are more illegal grows than legal. Now you figure out how the cops can tell the difference.
    If you want to operate in a questionable endeavor, you assume the legal risks.
    BTW, back when I grew my own,( with all the legal documentations and scripts) I DID have the “man” come and see that I was in within the law, just in case someone next door, or a more than a few properties down griped. I never had a problem.
    And all it took was a phone call.

    Like

  32. Walt Avatar

    On a VARY unrelated note, but must be told. Mammoth Lakes is rumbling.
    Lets hope it’s just a little indigestion.

    Like

  33. fish Avatar
    fish

    The “Ring of Fire” is rumbling this weekend. Japan broke wind last night (with a fatality).

    Like

  34. Walt Avatar

    The pot clan may want to stock up on their stash Fish if things get more than ugly.
    Ash fall is hell on pot plants.

    Like

  35. Thomas Beckforth Avatar
    Thomas Beckforth

    Nope Todd, 6 plants per recommendation, no LE agency will recognize a 99 plant recommendation…

    Like

  36. George Rebane Avatar

    Dear Readers, the 27sep14 sandbox is now open for business. I’ll keep this post on Measure S on top as long as the interest in informative debate continues.

    Like

  37. Paul Emery Avatar
    Paul Emery

    George
    Crickets from you on my concerns that the Sheriffs Dept can enter and search your property without a search warrant if they are perusing a “code” violation. If they are searching for stolen goods they need a criminal search warrant. Why the lack of concern for property rights? Because you are a stated supporter of 2349 than I assume you are a supporter of the vehicles used in it’s enforcement.
    Also if recreational MJ becomes legal in ’16 will that change your view about MJ cultivation being a legitimate cottage industry Nevada County? There is little doubt from political observes that this will happen next election cycle.
    You also refuse to acknowledge that MMJ can today be legally tendered to collectives and dispensaries in California for whatever value the market holds. Why in your view is it important to know the amount consumed by Nevada County residents? Isn’t it a good thing for our economy that local growers have such a healthy and legal market statewide to distribute their products?
    Your response to this has been uncharacteristically thin and lacking in substance. I assume it’s a cultural boundary.

    Like

  38. George Rebane Avatar

    PaulE 1056pm – Apologies for not replying more quickly on the property search issue. I’ve been trying to get information on the legal aspects of the matter, but will go with the best I have right after finishing breakfast. In the interval, please continue in the relief that on RR no legitimate topic has been or will be addressed by any crickets over which I have control. Stay tuned.
    [Later] On the issue of authorities’ warrantless search of private property. As explained to me by LE authorities, LE personnel are allowed to enter private property when they see from a public access vantage that there is a crime in process or criminal activity on private property. If no such evidence is apparent but LE still has reason to believe that there is criminal activity or evidence of such for a crime committed elsewhere, then they need a search warrant to enter and search the property. (Lawyers should weigh in on this interpretation.)
    In 1996 California passed Prop 215 legalizing the use of MMJ, in subsequent years additional laws and initiatives were passed that covered the state and/or various jurisdictions to more precisely define MMJ users, caregivers, and suppliers. None of this legislation was either coherent or consistent. The result was a years’ long gaggle of litigation that gave rise to even more impenetrable case law that became another full employment measure for the legal profession. At that point the most practical solution for defining legitimate MMJ users and prescribing how MMJ is produced then fell to the counties. In Nevada County this gave rise to Ordinance 2349 which also defined how MMJ could be legally grown in the county. We must always keep in mind that growing and using RMJ in California is illegal according to both state and federal law (the latter prohibiting the growth and consumption of all MJ).
    According to our BoS and Sheriff, to date 2349 has worked by allowing a workable balance between the grow related nuisance and patient supply/access factors for MMJ. 2349 has also facilitated the suppression of RMJ grows by its specificity in what constitutes a MMJ grow.
    In replacing 2349 Measure S takes a major step back from being specific (it is silent/moot on many factors, see comparison spreadsheet), and invites the BoS to enter into another round of crafting and passing (what we here call) S+ ordinances that dovetail with S and attempt to fill in any obvious holes in what S fails to define or permit LE to enforce. In short, passing S will bring back to Nevada County all the statewide problems launched by Prop 215 twenty years ago, promising to replicate the legal battles and confusion in our county that 2349 alleviated.
    Moreover, by its loosened grow protocols and omissions, S doubles down on the ambiguities that LE will have to overcome when there exists a probable cause for entering private property. In creating such confusion, S will definitely provide some relief to the county’s RMJ industry. And that, I maintain, is the main purpose for passing S. (Recall, that I promote the legalization, regulation, and taxation of RMJ as per our experience with other drugs such as ethanol and nicotine. But the RMJ issue should be addressed on its own merits and not avoided by hiding under the skirts of promoting compassionate MMJ use.)

    Like

  39. Joe Koyote Avatar
    Joe Koyote

    Todd 10:15 — It’s a one lane road Todd.. not hard to look inside a vehicle 4 feet way going 5 miles an hour. As for hearing voices, the road is a loop.. She saw them as they drove in.. and heard them later when most of the officers were standing around by their vehicles in the middle of the road. They waved and said hello. Do you think everyone is a liar Todd? Is that why you ask all of the dumb questions?

    Like

  40. Joe Koyote Avatar
    Joe Koyote

    fish 9:57 “.and this is why it needs to be completely legalized! To combat the ham fisted tactics employed by your government.”
    Just how is it “my” government.. is it not your government as well? Let me see… bad government is liberal and good government is conservative.. is that what you mean? I don’t get it.

    Like

  41. George Rebane Avatar

    JoeK 1027am – let me inject an editorial interpretation here that may clarify. Your logic on “bad government is liberal and good government is conservative” is too simplistic and incorrectly interprets the apologetics of RR and its ideological cohort over the years. The arguments here have amply demonstrated that collectivism, in its inception and practice, almost invariably gives rise to bad government here in America and all over the world. On the other hand, classical liberalism (and specifically conservetarianism) gives rise to various forms of beneficent governance from which we derive what most people would call ‘good government’.
    In short, Republicans are not innocent of contributing to bad government. But on balance, we believe they do it less than the collectivist Democrats.

    Like

  42. Bill Tozer Avatar
    Bill Tozer

    Dr. Rebane, your words (and your lovely bride’s) are blowing in the wind and falling on deaf ears. Excellent well reasoned post and excellent last comment @0841.
    If we are talking solely about medicinal marihuana for growers with a doctor’s prescription, then the topic is clear. The only ones that can legally grow 6 plants in CA and possess marihuana are patients with a script. That does not seem too hard for anyone to wrap their heads around, now does it? Oh, we can debate about square footage and setback on county parcels with 5 digit addresses. 6 plants is still 6 plants no matter which way the wind blows.
    Dr. Rebane, you are making the mistake of focusing on Measure S which deals with solely the legal cultivation of medicinal pot. Many readers want to expand it to recreational marihuana and vocational grows, which is certainly not what Measure S or the current ordinance is about, but we all know that.
    So, whether one smokes or grows herb for recreational use or even if one is a non inhaler but grows weed for a livelihood, I feel you are correct by saying Measure S will provide some relief for recreational marihuana cultivators. That is the gist of the illegal growers wish list.
    Because of my acreage and zoning A ( not RA or AR), I am allowed 600 square feet to legally farm 6 plants if I had a doctor’s recommendation posted clearly and followed setback rules. No problem. A 20×30 garden would be cramped, but adequate. I realize most folks do not have the back 40 or so acres and their zoning is different than mine. There is a school bus turnaround about a mile away. With all this said, I cannot grow 7 plants for my consumption even following all the rules. That is the rub. Forget county rules. State law is state law and it has been illegal to grow 7 plants without or without a doctor’s recommendation for decades. That just pisses people off. The illegal cultivators of medical marihuana or recreational marihuana or those that make their living off selling marihuana on the black market want/demand/long for the day when they are not only tolerated and accepted but rather, they can be declared legit and legal. Until that time, the illegal growers and consumers should focus on changing State law and quit nitpicking county regulations trying to pull a fast one to condone what they are doing.

    Like

  43. Todd Juvinall Avatar

    JoeK, 10:20am. I was taught there were no dumb questions but only dumb answers. You fit the bill. If your explanation is not totally made up from whole cloth then your uncle is a monkey. Please, one lane road, seeing automatic weapons, overhearing conversations, jeeze! They don’t let civilians anywhere close so you friend is full of petunias. And you believed it so you must be as well.

    Like

  44. George Rebane Avatar

    BTW, anyone wanting to read some after-action reports on the legalization of MJ, please google ‘the legalization of marijuana in Colorado the impact’ for a snootful of excellent references, pdfs of formal reports, and serious articles on the topic. The links cover more than just Colorado.

    Like

  45. Walt Avatar

    Took your advice and went through that pdf. It mirrors what I have been saying all along.
    And the locals want that here?
    Not so damned “safe”,,, is it? And some of the excuses given for the said recommendations,
    one sticks out.. “ankle problems”..
    It all about profit. When grows got the “green light” it’s shipped all across the land.
    Legal dispensaries to the “ill” selling to whoever walks in the door.( pre rec. legal )
    And that won’t happen here?
    As stated before, ” Don’t Colorado Nevada Co.”

    Like

  46. fish Avatar
    fish

    Just how is it “my” government.. is it not your government as well? Let me see… bad government is liberal and good government is conservative.. is that what you mean? I don’t get it.
    It is “the” government Joe and I think that if you’ve been paying attention you would have to acknowledge the I’m clearly not conservative. I would trim government back to a point that it would be largely unrecognizable to those like yourself who think it should right every social ill but leave pot and pot growers alone.

    Like

  47. fish Avatar
    fish

    In a “fish” government this wouldn’t occur.
    http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2014-09-28/why-usda-buying-submachine-guns
    I’ve yet to hear Joe complain about government other than the size and scope of the military and its actions and traditional law enforcement (weed cops). I can only assume that as long as USDA cops confine themselves to matters not marijuana related then you are OK with the activities mentioned as likely in the linked article.

    Like

  48. Bill Tozer Avatar
    Bill Tozer

    Now is the time to recite the old bumper sticker that read “I love my country, but fear my government.” Think that is a truism most can agree with. Believe it was John Adams or some other old timer that said “A patriot’s first duty is to protect his country from his government”. Now days such beliefs would be labeled treasonous by the far left Marxists government worshipers.

    Like

  49. Paul Emery Avatar

    George
    Just back from working sound tech at the Celtic Festival. it was a true Irish weekend with welcome “mist”. In Ireland they would say it’s was a “fresh”day.
    Not much time to respond tonight to your 8:41 but it’s apparent you don’t know the difference between a Criminal search warrant which you described in detail and one that is intended to enforce a “regulation”.
    Exceeding the limits of 2439 is a code violation not a criminal one. 2439 allows the sheriffs dept to enter and search ones property without the presumption that a “crime” is being committed therefore making it easy to search property with no presumption that a criminal act is being committed. The reality is that police can inter private property based only on a presumed complaint that someone doesn’t like the smell in the air. 2439 is a nuisance ordinance not a criminal one but oddly allows police much greater freedom to enter private property. I hope this explains it getter to you. It’s a crucial distinction that should raise the hackles of any property rights activist such as yourself.

    Like

  50. George Rebane Avatar

    PaulE 923pm – Thanks for the review Paul, but I do know the difference between regulatory inspection and a criminal search warrant. What you need to cite is chapter and verse from where you get the reality that “police can inter(sic) private property based only on a presumed complaint that someone doesn’t like the smell in the air.” The reality is that neither police nor code compliance inspectors can enter your property without showing probable cause that there is a violation on said property. Your stating that a “presumed complaint” is all that is needed doesn’t make it so, but does keep the pot boiling (pun intended).
    BTW, are you suggesting that passing S would somehow restore the property rights you claim are being violated under 2349 enforcement? Or is this just a diversion for us to stop our critical comparison of S and 2349?

    Like

Leave a comment