Rebane's Ruminations
September 2014
S M T W T F S
 123456
78910111213
14151617181920
21222324252627
282930  

ARCHIVES


OUR LINKS


YubaNet
White House Blog
Watts Up With That?
The Union
Sierra Thread
RL “Bob” Crabb
Barry Pruett Blog

Forgive them Father, for they know not what they do.  Luke 23:34

George Rebane

On the front of the 20sep14 edition of WSJ is a top-of-the-page herald that reads ‘Climate Science is NOT Settled’ (emphasis theirs; source of filched photo).  I have waited at least ten years for the world’s preeminent newspaper to publish a major essay, so titled and no less by a scientist acknowledged by both true believers and skeptics.  The piece is written by Dr Steven E Koonin, now director of the Center for Urban Science and Progress at New York University, and formerly undersecretary for science in the Energy Department during Obama’s first term.  Other positions included professor of theoretical physics and provost at Caltech.  Let me be up front, this is an ‘I told you so all along’ posting in which I will engage in some well-deserved braggadocio here and again.

Tornado_Incipient

Koonin’s piece is somewhat awkward in its attempt to walk back the bamboozle from the ‘science’ and baseless public policies we have been subjected to for the last 20+ years.  However, it is rich in corroborating the exact laundry list of criticisms that we science-savvy climate skeptics have been alerting our readers to for at least a decade.  While the Sierra Economics and Science Foundation and RR have a long string of published critiques of what has passed for climate science from government grant-sucking academics and in the lamestream media, the heavy lifting in informing the public has been done by people like Anthony Watts, Steve McIntyre, and even our own Russ Steele.

Awkward or not, Dr Koonin has the courage to finally break the silence with which Teams Obama, Gore, Schwarzenegger, and now Moonbeam have greeted every substantive counter to the arguments claimed to have been made in the various reports released over the years by the UN’s Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change.  Before going into some detail, let me give the overview that Koonin’s arguments follow exactly the (Venn) diagrammatic structure of the same arguments I gave in my 2008 paper ‘Climate Change – A Format for Reasoned Dialogue’ available here.

The tagline to Koonin’s piece is “Climate change is real and affected by human activity, writes a former top science official of the Obama administration.  But we are very far from having the knowledge needed to make good policy.” (emphasis mine)  Koonin opens up with –

The idea that “Climate science is settled” runs through today’s popular and policy discussions. Unfortunately, that claim is misguided. It has not only distorted our public and policy debates on issues related to energy, greenhouse-gas emissions and the environment. But it also has inhibited the scientific and policy discussions that we need to have about our climate future.


No one claims that human activity does not affect weather and climate, but it is the impact of human activity that has been greatly distorted.  Specifically, “the impact today of human activity appears comparable to the intrinsic natural variability of the climate system itself.”  Let me translate this for the non-technical reader – we cannot separate out human contribution to climate change within the natural changes that would occur without human intervention.  Therefore claims that humans have caused this temperature change, or sea level rise, or severity of storms, or polar ice cap changes is specious, ignorant, and cynical.   Our science is not advanced enough to inform us; we simply don’t know.

Then Koonin correctly identifies the question “hardest to answer” – ‘How will the climate change over the next century under both natural and human influences?’  This is the preamble to a discussion of computer climate models and their manifest shortcomings.  All covered in more detail here (see my above paper) and elsewhere (see also 2007 paper by McKitrick and Michaels) by those of us who have made careers in computer modeling of complex realworld processes – a skill in obvious short supply among the vociferous IPCC ‘climate scientists’.

Again, for the non-technical reader, we don’t understand the fundamental (and multifarious) climate processes well enough to model them independently, let alone how they would perform when integrated with other process models about which we are equally ignorant.  All the current models are cobbled together using inter-process links and feedbacks defined in essence by ‘brown numbers’  (originating from where the sun don’t shine).  These brown numbers are dredged out from attempts to fit the models to historical data on such atmospheric variables as CO2 concentration, temperature, …, which data records themselves are highly unreliable.  And using such brown numbers, the agenda driven ‘scientists’ then run the models forward in timeframes that range from fifty to a hundred years.  Reading the resulting smelly model outputs, they strap on a straight face and report to the know-nothing politicians that the world will come to an end if we don’t stop doing this, that, and the other thing RIGHT NOW!!  And across the world the even more science-deprived (read dumber) public figures start echoing and amplifying the dire warnings like a legion of bobbing heads on a dash panel.

What has been most reprehensible by the know-nothings like Obama and Gore is that they claim to derive truth from a ‘scientific consensus’ on climate change.  The real truth of the matter is that there has never been any scientific consensus on the interpretation of the climate records, the understanding of climate processes, the composition and operation of large computer models, and the results that these have spit out.  Any claims to the contrary by those sporting technical degrees is out and out fraud (not Koonin’s words, he wouldn’t dare), or ignorance of the magnitude that demands such degree holders sue for tuition refunds because their schools didn’t teach them anything.

And lest you think that the above paragraph concluded in hyperbole, consider that climate predicting has openly declared itself not ready for prime time, let alone as forming basis for public policy.  This is the ‘smoking gun’ – it is the only area of science that many of us are aware wherein the uncertainty bounds on its predictions have not decreased over time, as the accepted primary indicator that we understand more today than we did yesterday (more here).  The IPCC’s duufus brigade has just looked at such damning results, but haven’t had a clue about what to make of it as they continue to ensure one and all that the sky is falling.

Here’s the bottom line after Koonin brings us through the travails and foibles of climate modeling –

These and many other open questions are in fact described in the IPCC research reports, although a detailed and knowledgeable reading is sometimes required to discern them. They are not “minor” issues to be “cleaned up” by further research. Rather, they are deficiencies that erode confidence in the computer projections. Work to resolve these shortcomings in climate models should be among the top priorities for climate research. … Yet a public official reading only the IPCC’s “Summary for Policy Makers” would gain little sense of the extent or implications of these deficiencies. These are fundamental challenges to our understanding of human impacts on the climate, and they should not be dismissed with the mantra that “climate science is settled.”

If we ever walk back the bad science that has so polluted the issues of climate change and manmade global warming, then we can have a reasoned public debate about what prudent actions would serve in our current state of knowledge or ignorance.  Most would agree with Koonin’s conclusion that –

Individuals and countries can legitimately disagree about these matters, so the discussion should not be about “believing” or “denying” the science. Despite the statements of numerous scientific societies, the scientific community cannot claim any special expertise in addressing issues related to humanity’s deepest goals and values. The political and diplomatic spheres are best suited to debating and resolving such questions, and misrepresenting the current state of climate science does nothing to advance that effort. … Any serious discussion of the changing climate must begin by acknowledging not only the scientific certainties but also the uncertainties, especially in projecting the future. Recognizing those limits, rather than ignoring them, will lead to a more sober and ultimately more productive discussion of climate change and climate policies.

Finally, I would like to remind RR readers of the damage to public goodwill and harmony that local promoters of big government have done in this arena.  In our community the growing progressive influx has brought with it all the slogans and mantras decrying how man is ‘destroying earth’s climate’ and demanding draconian policies that impose green collectivism (as embodied in Agenda21) as our only path to salvation.  These locals embody the worst of what self-declared elites can foist upon the intellectually defenseless.  In recent years they have caused untold damage to California’s economy and quality of life by promoting such laws as AB32 (‘Global Warming Solutions Act’) along with platoons of EPA regulations covering everything from water usage to cow farts that most egregiously affect rural and less developed parts of the state.  These self-styled promoters of the environment are themselves profoundly ignorant, and to the extent that they are aware of their dumbth and continue their activism, they are also consummately cynical knowing how they impact our lives on the local level.  So far we have only responded to them most generously with various elaborations of the prayer, ‘Forgive them Father, for they know not what they do.’

(An example of the kool-aid continuously consumed by local lefties is that on ncvoices.us, an otherwise useful source for local blogs and information sites, RR is listed off-screen on right edge with a group of mostly conservative websites under the heading ‘Denialism/Climate Contrarians’.   Such an appellation and the editorial copy that follows are more than sufficient to inform the reader about the science credentials of that site’s author.)

[22sep14 update]  The propaganda engines are humming this morning reporting yesterday’s People’s Climate March and the upcoming UN’s pre-conference on climate.  I find it interesting how brazenly the Left is taking the last vestiges of science out of global warming which is now 1) axiomatically accepted as being man-made AND man-correctible (AGW), and 2) that its real purpose is to unite people worldwide to destroy capitalism and put in a new social and economic order.

PeoplesClimateMarch

A notable example of this kind of reportage was very evident on today’s National Propaganda Radio’s Morning Edition.  It reported on the big march in NYC and the UN conference.  Cited was the large ideological divide in who believes in AGW – Democrats overwhelmingly, Republicans sparingly.  AGW was posited multiple times in its ‘debate is over’ and ‘science is settled’ versions.  And the report ended with a Democratic strategist outlining how blacks and Hispanics, who don’t usually vote, will be motivated to do so by bringing AGW to them in readily understandable “kitchen table talk” formats in which they are told that all inclement weather events are due to and direct evidence of AGW.  To bring us back from the brink and have good weather again, they need to think socialism and vote Democratic.  (See also the many informative and corroborative comments attending this post, and this on Russ Steele’s Sierra Foothill Commentary.)

Posted in , , , , ,

102 responses to “Walking Back Climate ‘Science’ & Policy (updated 22sep14)”

  1. Walt Avatar

    The true believers are going to be looking for this guy’s head. How dare he turn on them.
    But Ca. has taken the IPCC bullshit as gospel and written and passed laws because the info.”said so”. CARB and the waterboard swore by this crap, and we now pay the price, in more ways than one. We will all take it up the posterior hard and dry when the new carbon tax hits after the 1ST. I will let Mr. Bill finish it from here…

    Like

  2. Russ Steele Avatar

    Read Koonin’s article at breakfast table this morning at the Windmill Inn in Roseburg, and was composing a response in my mind as we drove home. You exceed my mental composition by a wide margin. Well Done. More comments after the car is unloaded.

    Like

  3. Fuzz Avatar
    Fuzz

    George, no one disputes that the “state of the art” view of climate science should command the day, but with so much uncertainty, as you’ve described, the average schlub (like me) considers Pascal’s Wager. Then you move on to “quality of life” and one man’s damage is another man’s desire. (Anything that reduces the whiskey brown haze I used to see as I approached L.A. in the morning is OK in my book.) This is the kind of subject that should have unbiased prime time panel discussions on TV and radio where the issues and consequences are laid out in language the public can understand. The general ignorance of the public is not going away. You have to deal with what is and the emotional appeal that doomsday scenarios have on the masses watching Oprah and FoodTV. …..and since they’re spending so much time on the tube, go there! What % of the population reads WSJ? (Those that do generally run everything through a “cost to business” filter as the controlling criterion.) I don’t like “unnecessary” regulation any more than you do, but how do you define “necessary” when nobody knows EXACTLY the scope of what humans ARE doing or not doing to the climate? In the face of this uncertainty, is the default position to do nothing if it adds one scintilla of cost or “inconvenience”?….(leaving aside waste caused by a necessary but mismanaged program.) I have absolutely no desire to pay a penny more to a governmental agency for some program that isn’t “necessary”. I wish God would give a TED talk on exactly what’s going on so we could end the confusion..

    Like

  4. Bill Tozer Avatar
    Bill Tozer

    The Peoples Climate March is set for today in Manhattan according to the NYT. Many flowering words to be spoken. With 9 months of planning, I hope they turn their attention and actions to our pressing need: One big humongous rain dance.

    Like

  5. Russ Steele Avatar

    At a pre-People Climate March Rally last night Capitalism was in the crosshairs as Socialism was promoted at the opening event.
    Socialism was praised and promoted to raucous applause by the hundreds in attendance at the People’s Climate March event on September 20, featuring organizer Bill McKibben, author Naomi Klein, socialist Seattle City Council member Kshama Sawant and socialist Senator Bernie Sanders of Vermont.
    The event, held at the Unitarian Church of All Souls, was titled “THE CLIMATE CRISIS: WHICH WAY OUT.” The event was permeated with socialist literature with the Socialist Alternative newspaper prominently on display.

    Mark Morano reports from the meeting, after the activists were warn not to talk to him:
    When Kshama Sawant, a socialist who won a seat on the Seattle City Council, noted she was the first socialist elected in decades, the church erupted in applause.
    “A socialist world that will deliver a high standard of living for all,” Sawant said to applause.
    Sawant ripped the current economic system: “The market is God, everything is being sacrificed on the altar of profits,” Sawant declared. “We must bring giant corporations into public ownership. You cannot control what you don’t own,” she added.
    Senator Bernie Sanders ripped Fox News Channel: “We all know what Fox TV does not know. Climate change is real,” he said to laughter. Sanders declared the “debate is over.” “This is the planetary crisis of our time.”
    “Unless we address global warming this planet will be even more unstable than it is today.” [Sanders also faced a momentary protest from the crowd for his supporting “war.” Activists unfurled a big banner in front of Sanders while he spoke.]
    350.org founder and march organizer McKibben called global warming the ‘greatest crisis.’ “This is the biggest problem that humans have ever been up against,” he declared.
    McKibben warned of an apocalyptic future of human caused global warming. “The science of climate change is dark and hard,” he said and warned of 8 or 9 degree F [temperature rise] before the century is out.”
    McKibben also promoted an Occupy Wall Street type climate event for Monday. (See: Climate march will feature ‘a 300-foot-long banner that reads ‘Capitalism = Climate Chaos – Flood Wall Street’) (Also see: Flashback 2013: Bill McKibben is not what he seems to be)
    Also featured on the panel with McKibben was author Naomi Klein, author of the new book “This Changes Everything: Capitalism vs. The Climate”. See: Warmist Naomi Klein: ‘Capitalism is irreconcilable with a livable climate’ – Facing climate change head-on means changing capitalism
    & See: Warmist Naomi Klein: ‘Dealing with the climate crisis will require a completely different economic system’
    During the panel discussion, Klein was asked: “Even if climate change issue did not exist, you would be calling for same structural changes. Klein responded: ‘Yeah.’
    Following the panel, Climate Depot asked Klein if she would support all the same climate “solutions” even if the science was wrong.
    “Yes, I would still be for social justice even if there was not climate change. Yes, you caught me Marc,” Klein answered sarcastically as she abruptly ended the interview. [Also see: EU Commissioner: Global Warming Policy Is Right Even If Science Is Wrong ]
    Klein told the activists she recommended “weaving this [climate] movement into all of our movements.”
    Klein also singled out Climate Depot’s Marc Morano during her panel presentation, noting that “climate deniers and Heartland Institute people like Marc Morano, who is here tonight…”
    Klein noted that the “ecological clock is ticking.”
    “We are dealing with an existential terror,” she added.

    Now you have a view from the other side of the issue. It is not about the climate it is about Socialism. Much more HERE.
    Side note: When Mrs Clinton’s name was mentioned the crowd erupted in boos and cat calls.

    Like

  6. Gregory Avatar
    Gregory

    “I don’t like “unnecessary” regulation any more than you do, but how do you define “necessary” when nobody knows EXACTLY the scope of what humans ARE doing or not doing to the climate? In the face of this uncertainty, is the default position to do nothing if it adds one scintilla of cost or “inconvenience”?”
    Unfortunately, it isn’t an issue of “one scintilla of cost”; cause the price of energy to skyrocket and people will die.
    Only 52% of the professional members of the American Meteorological Society surveyed last year think one half or more of the 20th century warming is due to mankind, all causes, not just CO2. Meaning at least 48% are “deniers”; had the question, “Are CO2 emissions dangerous to life on Earth?” been asked I’ve little doubt there would have been a small minority of AMS members agreeing. Why wasn’t that question asked? One could easily suspect they didn’t want to know.
    AGW was politicized out of the gate; by and large, it’s the Left that is convinced we’re burning ourselves up, despite, by the satellite record, there being no statistically significant warming in 18 years.
    The marchers better march hard… the end is near, but not for Gaia. The more time passes, the greater the evidence for natural temperature variations being far larger than the CO2 signal and the climate’s theorized amplification of that signal AND ANY OTHER SOURCE OF WARMING.
    It isn’t just CO2, it’s anything. The planet has been oscillating with equatorial ocean temps varying maybe 6C peak to peak, with a period of something like 160 million years… but the positive feedback event (the temperature equivalent to the screech of a badly adjusted public address system) they’re scaring you with has NEVER happened over the past 500+ million years.
    The only candidate for the main driver of ocean temps over geologic time (the average luminance from the Sun has been reasonably constant) are high energy, galactic cosmic rays, the detritus of supernovas in our galaxy. When we are bathed in them, causing more cloud condensation nuclei (CCN) to be formed, the earth gets colder; all of the great Snowball Earth ice age episodes with ice being the dominant feature of the planet are when we are bathed in them… our Sun’s orbit around our galactic center brings us in and out of the four spiral arms of our galaxy and our ice ages are when we are in a spiral arm, our hottest periods are when we are smack dab inbetween.
    That’s geologic time… but since 2006 when Svensmark demonstrated GCR-driven CCN generation in a lab, it’s also been replicated in a sophisticated apparatus at CERN, and detected in nature, with the world’s cloud moisture content dipping 7% a week after a Forbush event, a solar windstorm caused by a coronal mass ejection, sweeps us clean of GCR for a short time.
    And during the Little Ice Age, sunspots (indicators of the solar magnetic field strength and solar wind intensity) disappeared for years… and with less sunspots we get more ionizing GCR and more CCN… more low clouds, less sunlight reaching the ground.
    Yes, I know, all the above is barely distinguishable from magic by many, but it’s less magic than a tiny warming from CO2 being amplified many, many times over into a catastrophe the world has never experienced in 500+ million years of many temperature short term temperature excursions.
    Madness.

    Like

  7. fish Avatar
    fish

    Well it’s good that they admit that they expect the same remedies whether or not global warming actually exists!
    Does anybody know if the grant whore from Truckee was in attendance with his begging bowl?

    Like

  8. Walt Avatar

    Don’t forget what came out of the EPA. ” It’s isn’t about keeping people safe and healthy..It’s about furthering the agenda.” Socialism is part of that agenda.

    Like

  9. George Rebane Avatar

    Fuzz 1024pm – Thank you for the considered comment. Let’s first dispense with the comparison of reducing LA smog with AGW. The constituents, sources, causes, and ‘cures’ for LA smog were well known even back to the 1940s. Its eradication/reduction was a political decision to apply the known remedies. There was no Pascal’s Wager involved.
    And no Pascal’s Wager is involved with climate change and AGW because there is no evidence of an extra-ordinary existential climate problem occurring, and there is overwhelming evidence that nature is continuing the course it has taken over its geologic ages. The AGW has been latched on by people who want to remake society in their twisted image – global socialist central government organizing human life best summarized in the objective statements of Agenda21. AGW has been promoted to the great unwashed worldwide by the cynical elites of collectivist ideology in both politics and ‘science’ – the record of the supportive organizations and their ideological leanings are a matter of public record, and continue to be so today (e.g. see also RussS 658am and Gregory 707am comments).
    And these central planner autocrats know that time is running out on how much longer they can expect the masses (like the ignoramuses marching in NYC) to stay ignorant in the face of readily available evidence when they turn on the TV or walk out of their houses. But before this is over, you can expect the Great Lying Machines to crank up to levels not experienced since the days of Goebbels and USSR’s Pravda. Here the outcome is not certain, there are no limits to human ignorance, especially when expertly nurtured.

    Like

  10. Walt Avatar

    George. You mention Pravda.. A few years ago, that vary publication
    called the U.S. insane for allowing Socialism to goose step into our society. Especially after the real blood sweat and tears THEY went through to get out from under that jackboot. ( yet now they have allowed Putin to re-instigate it.) Go figure…

    Like

  11. George Rebane Avatar

    Walt 929am – Russia is a thugocracy cum tyranny. Its policies – domestic and foreign – are strictly opportunistic. Putin has no need to present a consistent and/or coherent story to Russians. Recalling Orwell’s ‘1984’ explains the whole thing. With lamestream support Obama is doing his best to emulate such “flexibility” in what his administration does, and his broad constituency is lapping it up (for evidence just look at the writings of our local leftwingers).

    Like

  12. Bill Tozer Avatar
    Bill Tozer

    Rain dance is working. Now, let’s dam it, damn it.

    Like

  13. Walt Avatar

    Well the Pravda snipe at us was pre-Putin. The saw “O” and the DEMS for what they were way back when.. But did the people here listen?? I do believe that’s a no…

    Like

  14. Brad C. Avatar
    Brad C.

    It is a waste of time to try to blame human activities, or geologic processes for GW since every process contributes in some way, some more so than others. For all I know, the AGW debate was created as a smoke screen by big business dream teams (think OJ’s dream team) to confuse the issues by making the assertion that, if they can invalidate the AGW argument, they can invalidate all the good work that the environmental protection agencies do, hopefully, allowing big fossil fuel producers and consumers to get back to the business of spewing whatever they want into the environment.
    The more important argument (to me) is how to get the toxins out of the CO2 generating processes. Since CO2 is present with the more poisonous toxins emitted as a result of fossil fuel combustion processes, if we could lower emissions by making the combustion process more efficient (and make better, more efficient use of the combustion process) we would be helping to do all we can do to keep CO2 emissions and the associated noxious and toxic emissions minimized.
    That will benefit those who want to minimize possible AGW and keep our air and water cleaner.

    Like

  15. George Rebane Avatar

    Addendum to my 831am – The Left is trumpeting the ‘fact’ that 2014 is the hottest year in Earth’s recorded history. Readers should understand that there is no such thing as an unambiguous ‘Earth temperature’, there is no single place we can stick a thermometer and measure it. Earth temperatures come in many flavors and are powered by many motivations; each temperature is the output of an algorithm that takes different sets of input data – different temperature measuring stations, different locations, different altitudes/depths, etc. The data for each is prepared in different ways – scrubbed, interpolated, smoothed, … – before being put into its algo which then combines the data using different equations and different weights attached to the input data items before spitting out a number (‘the Earth’s temperature’). Given these ‘production pathways’ for the variously cited Earth’s temperatures, one can easily see that such processes can be tailored to give a plausible explanation for any desired historical temperature profile, including the infamous ‘hockey stick'(q.v.) cited by the True Believers. And the innumerate voter has no capacity to question what a politician or TV personality or movie star tells him.

    Like

  16. George Rebane Avatar

    Walt 955am – “Well the Pravda snipe at us was pre-Putin.” Not on your life Walt. Pravda is alive and well, and doing its usual job now serving a new master. See for yourself – http://english.pravda.ru/
    BradC 1000am – I’m not sure that you have understood the fundamentals of greenhouse gases and, specifically, the CO2 argument. As the record shows and many have pointed out 1) atmospheric CO2 levels have been much higher than now during periods when flora and fauna flourished even more than now, and 2) there is no correlation between atmospheric CO2 levels and any measures of earth’s temperatures. Your apparent blind support of CO2 emission levels seems to depend on some unidentified “toxins” that are co-emitted with CO2. There is no credible evidence for such toxins, especially in amounts claimed to also affect our health and safety. Introducing co-emitted toxins into the AGW debate appears to be a blatant diversion desperately promoted now that CO2 has lost public credibility in its ability to be the sole bearer of bad tidings for the future. Evidence please.

    Like

  17. Russ Steele Avatar

    Paid Volunteers at People’s Climate March
    Craigs List: Looking for volunteers to pass out flyers at Climate March (Midtown)
    Years Of Living Dangerously, an Emmy Award winning television series about climate change, currently seeks a few volunteers to pass out flyers during the People’s Climate March on Sunday, Sept 21st.
    Time: 11:00am
    Payment is $50 per volunteer.
    Please send a short email about why you’d like to volunteer with the Years of Living Dangerously team during the Climate March. Confirmation and specific details will be given upon receipt of email.
    http://newyork.craigslist.org/mnh/evg/4669216880.html
    Anthony Watt’s writes: “That movie was such a bomb, they are reduced to “paid volunteers” handing out fliers on street corners at $50 each.”
    I wonder how many of the other marchers were “paid volunteers”? If you remember many of the Occupy Wall Street protesters were also paid volunteers. The left has a history of using rent a mobs for their protestes. Paid Volunteers at People’s Climate March

    Like

  18. fish Avatar
    fish

    Always good to see Chuck Schumer “walkin the walk”!
    https://twitter.com/KerryPicket/status/513708394977701888/photo/1

    Like

  19. Walt Avatar

    This is what I was referring to.
    “Pravda, Russia’s leading news publication, pointedly asserts that while Communism has failed miserably in their country, the recent U.S. presidential election demonstrates that it has scored a victory in America. A November editorial titled “Obama’s Soviet Mistake” observes that while Vladimir Putin’s re-election signified popular determination to keep the New World Order agenda out of Russia, President Obama’s did the opposite.”

    Like

  20. George Rebane Avatar

    RussS 1052am – good heads up on the Left’s creativity in creating and distributing all kinds of transfer payments. I would not be surprised if they are paying the $50 ‘volunteers’ out of some taxpayer funded grant one of their buried organizations got for ‘educational purposes’.
    Russ, all of us who have studied climate change know that natural sources of CO2 like volcanoes and massive wildfires put out massive amounts of all kinds of pollutant gases in addition to CO2. Amounts that often beggar man’s contributions.
    Many of the longstanding and butt stupid liberal eco-policies have prevented the thinning of our forests through profitable (and tax paying instead of tax costing) enterprises. We know the current forest densities are both manmade and man-maintained, the historical densities were much lower and did not support the kinds of fire like the current 90K acre Pollock Pines fire. Can you dig out how much CO2 in manmade equivalents (e.g. operating a gasoline passenger car for a year) does say an acre or a square mile of fire consumed heavy timber produces? That would be an eye-opener for our readers.
    Here’s something from NSF on the subject –
    http://www.nsf.gov/news/news_summ.jsp?cntn_id=110580

    Like

  21. Brad C. Avatar
    Brad C.

    GeorgeR 1021am, CO2 is not the only thing that comes out of an exhaust pipe or smokestack. Do I really have to list the toxic soup ingredients? I will add to what I said above, “every process (solar, cosmic, human, geologic) contributes in some way (to variations we observe in climate fluctuation), some more so than others”. I do not say humans can control those natural processes. But, did humans exacerbate the desertification of North Africa and the Middle East, or the Dust Bowl, or contribute to the killer fogs in London in the 1950s?
    The AGW debate just polarized people and moved people’s energies away from what, I think, is the more important topic of toxic, cancer-causing pollutants, and nasty smelling byproducts. Some may get upset about the smell of skunk; I am tired of the stench of diesel smoke and smog. By increasing efficiencies and reducing CO2 emissions (except during hydrogen combustion), don’t we also lower the other combustion byproducts thereby improving air quality?

    Like

  22. Walt Avatar

    Brad. Checked out Iceland? The current eruption is spewing SO2 by the train load, by the hour.
    I won’t even venture to guess to try and compare to our own national output.
    And the experts say it’s not going to end anytime soon. On top of that they are waiting for a full blown catastrophic event.
    Do a little history work of the land of fire and ice, and see just how what’s happened historically. It’s happened more than once, and can, and will happen again.
    Here at home we have Mammoth lakes putting out CO2 by tonns. Even up north, Lassen Peak
    puts out it’s fair share. Alaska? those pop off on a regular basis.
    Volcanos around the world are busy, and even if we all drive eco buggys, not a damned thing will change.
    But that is never publicized or added to the equation. It’s only we humans that are to blame.

    Like

  23. George Rebane Avatar

    BradC 1214pm – We may be talking past each other here. I don’t understand what your point is beyond listing some tautologies – e.g. given high enough concentrations of TBD toxins, we’re going to have a health problem. No kidding! But yes, you do have to make the case that sufficient amounts of certain toxins known to cause this level (e.g. mortality or morbidity per 100K) health problems are co-emitted with CO2. And also, I don’t understand whether your argument intends to substantiate the Teams Gore and Obama AGW hysteria, AND you do believe that we know the science (let alone the economics) well enough to devise palliative public policies that would actually work?? Please explain yourself in a substantive manner, innuendo can only take us so far.

    Like

  24. fish Avatar
    fish

    …and from the Mark Steyn v Dr. Michael Mann “Steel Cage Match of Climate Science Death and High Court Twitter Related Matters” …high comedy ensues!
    http://www.steynonline.com/6566/the-barbra-streisand-effect-on-steroids

    Like

  25. Walt Avatar

    A sliver of info. for Brad. ( and others)
    Claire Witham of the Met Office, is giving a presentation at the European Geosciences Union conference in Vienna this week about impact on the UK of such an eruption. It’s serious stuff. Last October, the British Geological Survey released a report (compiled by Sue Loughlin, Head of Volcanology) that describes what we know about such eruptions:
    The 1783-84 Laki event erupted over 14 km3 of basalt lava, releasing millions of tonnes of sulphur dioxide gas that polluted the atmosphere across northwest Europe for months with sulphuric acid fog.
    It’s estimated that it killed over 20,000 people in Europe at the time, and new studies suggest that if it happened again today that figure could be 140,000. Furthermore, the acid damages crops and can poison waterways.
    We’ve had two Laki-sized eruptions in the past 1,000 years (Laki 1783, Eldgjá 934), and eleven smaller ones (but only two of these erupted >1 km3 magma), so another such eruption is possible in our lifetimes.
    Nevertheless, the reality wasn’t exciting enough for the mainstream media, who have reported this as some kind of imminent apocalypse. In lots of science communication, there is a problem with dumbing-down of information. In volcanology, the problem is sexing up.
    From
    http://all-geo.org/volcan01010/2014/04/sources-of-reliable-information-about-large-icelandic-fissure-eruptions/
    That’s a lot of dead people in the EU from an event in little Iceland.

    Like

  26. Walt Avatar

    A graphic map of all the grouchy volcanos around the globe. Yet we humans are the scapegoats for the ills of this marble.
    http://www.volcanodiscovery.com/volcano-map.html

    Like

  27. Russ Steele Avatar

    Below is a list of active volcanos as of June 2014. However, it does not include underwater volcanoes.
      Stromboli (Eolian Islands, Italy)
      Kilauea (Hawai’i)
      Bagana (Bougainville Island, Papua New Guinea)
      Manam (Papua New Guinea)
      Yasur (Tanna Island, Vanuatu)
      Ambrym (Vanuatu)
      Colima (Western Mexico)
      Santa María / Santiaguito (Guatemala)
      Fuego (Guatemala)
      Ol Doinyo Lengai (Tanzania)
      Erta Ale (Ethiopia)
      Barren Island (Indian Ocean)
      Nyiragongo (DRCongo)
      Sinabung (Sumatra, Indonesia)
      Dukono (Halmahera, Indonesia)
      Ibu (Halmahera, Indonesia)
      Lokon-Empung (North Sulawesi, Indonesia)
      Sangeang Api (Indonesia)
      Semeru (East Java, Indonesia)
      Batu Tara (Sunda Islands, Indonesia)
      Slamet (Central Java, Indonesia)
      Marapi (Western Sumatra, Indonesia)
      Ubinas (Peru)
      Reventador (Ecuador)
      Shiveluch (Kamchatka)
      Karymsky (Kamchatka)
      Zhupanovsky (Kamchatka, Russia)
      Sakurajima (Kyushu, Japan)
      Suwanose-jima (Ryukyu Islands, Japan)
      Nishino-shima (Volcano Islands, Japan)
      Erebus (Antarctica)
    This list does not include the hundreds of thousands of underwater volcanoes that no one is even monitoring. One survy by Hillier & Watts found 201,055 submarine volcanoes. It is estimated that as many as 3.5 million undersea volcanos exist and about 130,000 are active. This does not include the plethora of smoker vents on the volcanic ridge tops. We just do not know how much CO2 that volcanos produce every year. The lastest guess is about 600 millon tons per year, by Mike Burton, of the Italian National Institute of Geophysics and Volcanology.
    The average car in the US produces about 11,000 to 12,000 pounds per year. Or, about .5 metric tons. Or, equal to 1,200 million cars, if I got the math right.

    Like

  28. Gregory Avatar
    Gregory

    “CO2 is not the only thing that comes out of an exhaust pipe or smokestack”
    -Brad C.
    Absolutely right. H2O is another huge component of automobile exhaust, and, get this, it’s also a greenhouse gas! And the more efficient the engine the more CO2 and H2O you get!
    Neither CO2 or H2O are pollutants and ten years from now you’re be trying to forget you actually believed the crap you’ve been told.

    Like

  29. Walt Avatar

    Why is it when confronted with facts the “true believers” scram like roaches when the lights go on? They never come back with any “facts” of their own. Just conjecture and “feelings”….( or insults…)
    But Brad should be happy shelling out more money in greenhouse gas taxes to help out with that self imposed guilt trip.

    Like

  30. Russ Steele Avatar

    The link below will take you to pictures of the People’s Climate March:
    http://www.cfact.org/2014/09/21/climate-craziness-descends-on-nyc/
    It was a fund raiser for Avaaz and 350.org according to this report:
    Investigative reporter Cory Morningstar has connected the dots between the organizing groups, 350.org and Avaaz, the global online activist outfit modeled on MoveOn, and institutions like the World Bank and Clinton Global Initiative. Morningstar claims the secret of Avaaz’s success is its “expertise in behavioral change.”
    Excerpt #1:
    Here’s what seems to be going on. Avaaz found a lucrative revenue stream by warning about climate catastrophe that can be solved with the click of a donate button. To convince people to donate it says we need Occupy-style actions. When the moment comes for such a protest, Avaaz and 350.orgblocked it and then when it did get organized, they pushed it out of sight. If you go to People’s Climate March, you won’t find any mention of the Flood Wall Street action, which I fully support, but fear is being organized with too little time and resources. Nor have I seen it in an Avaaz email, nor has anyone else I’ve talked to. Bill McKibben of 350.org began promoting it this week, but that may be because there is discontent in the activist ranks about the march, which includes lots of Occupy Wall Street activists. One inside source said, “It’s a branding decision not to promote the Flood Wall Street action. These are not radical organizations.”
    Excerpt #2:
    Sources say Avaaz and 350.org is footing most of the bill for the People’s Climate March with millions of dollars spent. Avaaz is said to have committed a dozen full-time staff, and hired dozens of other canvassers to collect petition signatures and hand out flyers. Nearly all of 350.org’s staff is working on climate marches around the country and there is an office in New York with thirty full-time workers organizing the march. That takes a lot of cheddar. While the grassroots are being mobilized, this is not a grassroots movement. That’s why it’s a mistake to condemn it. People are joining out of genuine concern and passion and hope for an equitable, sustainable world, but the control is top down and behind closed doors. Everyone I talked to described an undemocratic process. Even staffers were not sure who was making the decisions other than to tell me to follow the money. It’s also facile to say all groups are alike. Avaaz is more cautious than 350.org, and apparently the New York chapter of 350.org, which is more radical, is at odds with the national.
    Excerpt #3:
    One source said the December 2013 email from Avaaz Executive Director Ricken Patel about climate change was a goldmine. It was headlined, “24 Months to Save the World.” It begins, “This may be the most important email I’ve ever written to you,” and then says the climate crisis is “beyond our worst expectations” with storms and temperatures “off the charts.” Then comes the hook from Patel, “We CAN stop this, if we act very fast, and all together. And out of this extinction nightmare, we can pull one of the most inspiring futures for our children and grandchildren. A clean, green future in balance with the earth that gave birth to us.”
    Telling people there is 24 months to save the world is odious, as is implying an online donation to Avaaz can save the planet.
    The same overblown rhetoric is being used for the People’s Climate March: It’s the biggest ever. There is “unprecedented collaboration” with more than 1,400 “partner” groups in New York City. Everything comes down to this one day with the “future on the line and the whole world watching, we’ll take a stand to bend the course of history.”

    Just send money and we can change the climate in 24 months.

    Like

  31. Bill Tozer Avatar
    Bill Tozer

    Mr. Steele. Whatever happened to Anna who always told you your house is burning? Just curious, probably off topic. Oh by the way, “Russ, your house is burning.” …. Not!

    Like

  32. Bill Tozer Avatar
    Bill Tozer

    Mr. Walt: enjoyed your analogy of cockroaches scrambling away when one turns the lights on. On the flip side on the same coin, turn on the lights and you will attract all sorts of bugs.
    If I donate my blood money to the cause, will that stop the scourge that has threatened the existence of life on this planet as we have known it, aka, cockroach flatculence? Heard some cockroaches are really passing gas down at the Roach Motel. Them cockroaches probably have been eating too much healthy organic dried purple kelp. Wise to leave a greenie party when someone brings the bag of kelp out. Phew.
    Time to get those pointed toe cowboy boots on and crush them little roaches in corners. Otherwise we will all burn up and die a horrible death by 2010. Or, was that we all would have ocean view property here in Nevada County by 2012? Save the planet and ban baked beans and dried purple kelp.

    Like

  33. Russ Steele Avatar

    Huh?
    Environmental activist Robert F. Kennedy Jr. lamented that there were no current laws on the books to punish global warming skeptics. . “I wish there were a law you could punish them with. I don’t think there is a law that you can punish those politicians under,” Kennedy told Climate Depot in a one-on-one interview during the People’s Climate March. The interiew was conducted for the upcoming documentary Climate Hustle.
    Kennedy Jr. accused skeptical politicians of “selling out the public trust.” “Those guys are doing the Koch Brothers bidding and are against all the evidence of the rational mind, saying global warming does not exit. They are contemptible human beings. I wish there were a law you could punish them with. I don’t think there is a law that you can punish those politicians under.”

    Facts do not matter, if you do not believe the bad science, you could go to jail. Yea, the Pope used to put people in jail for being nonbelievers when science challenged the churches dogma.

    Like

  34. Bill Tozer Avatar
    Bill Tozer

    Liberals, the defenders of the people’s rights and tolerance, are always looking for another law first and foremost to justify intolerance and take away rights. Liberalism is a crime against humanity.
    But, what you do expect from a politician from The Commonwealth. His uncle, the Lion of the Senate, left politics with half a brain.

    Like

  35. Joe Koyote Avatar
    Joe Koyote

    The Rockefeller family is dumping all of its fossil fuel holdings and re-investing in clean energy as a “moral imperative” for the health of the planet. What does this tell you about what is real and what isn’t and who knows what and who doesn’t, anything?
    http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-29310475

    Like

  36. fish Avatar
    fish

    Posted by: Joe Koyote | 22 September 2014 at 09:51 AM
    Well it certainly confirms that you are a gullible nitwit JoKe. While I’m thinking about it how goes your troubles with the “state”?

    Like

  37. Joe Koyote Avatar
    Joe Koyote

    Carp– who is the gullible nitwit, the Rockfellers or the deniers? I would think the Rockefellers have access to better information than you do. Fox news and WSJ and Rebane’s ruminations aren’t really pillars of journalistic integrity. Troubles with the state? You got me there. Perhaps you should stop and pick up all of the marbles on the floor that fell out of your brain. Oh yeah, have a nice day.

    Like

  38. Walt Avatar

    LOL Joe,, What make you believe they will follow through? It makes the look good at the moment. Two weeks from now it will be forgotten about.
    Unless there is government money or HUGE tax breaks, big money isn’t interested.
    I read that too. Even the rich hate to lose money, or throw it down a rat hole.
    Good ol” Gore has got rich of the hoax. ” Do as I say, not as I do.”

    Like

  39. Walt Avatar

    A little more in depth story for Joe. Not the boiled down version for those with attention defoliate disorder.
    http://www.nytimes.com/2014/09/22/us/heirs-to-an-oil-fortune-join-the-divestment-drive.html
    Try to get past just the part you crow about.

    Like

  40. fish Avatar
    fish

    Carp– who is the gullible nitwit, the Rockfellers or the deniers?
    I thought my post showed who I thought who was the gullible nitwit. That would be….shocker….you!
    I imagine the Rockefellers make so much money from their purely financial holdings that divesting themselves of oil holdings is probably not a huge deal at this point. Walts suggestion shouldn’t be discounted either…that they sell to some other entity over which they hold sway and retain control while still polishing their environmental credentials.

    Like

  41. fish Avatar
    fish

    Troubles with the state? You got me there.
    That wasn’t snark Joe….rumor has it that your nom de internet was that of a certain resident who got popped for growing perhaps a bit more than he was permitted for (an activity that in my estimation should carry no sanction from the state at all).

    Like

  42. George Rebane Avatar

    JoeK 1011am – Thanks for weighing in Joe. I was hoping that someone from the Left would illustrate their arguments in this comment stream. Nothing like a home grown Exhibit A.
    In his repartee the liberal can cite neither data nor data source, but the unquestionable axiom observed with tongue-in-cheek by Aleichem’s Tevye, ‘If you’re rich they really think you know.’ To our other readers I’d like to point out that this is exactly the troglodytic thinking that held back human advancement (and science) for centuries – the rich and powerful have a lock on truth and reality.
    Well, let me state here and now that Dr Koonin, I, and many others trained in the sciences do, in fact, have equal and better access to the needed information than do the Rockerfellers, and moreover, we know what it means. It never occurs to the naïfs that the Rockerfellers’ decision may be constrained by ideology and motivated by politics. Most certainly such investment decisions will not markedly affect their portfolio or their QoL.

    Like

  43. Walt Avatar

    If Fish is correct “he who got popped” has more to deal with than just the state. Lois Learner’s ex employer will be having a nice sit down visit, and taking inventory. Then “sharing the wealth”.

    Like

  44. Gregory Avatar
    Gregory

    How Aristotelian of you, JoKe.
    I know of no one named Rockefeller who has as much science knowledge than either me, my son or his late mother, though some might. Why anyone would take their investment strategies as a leading science indicator is beyond the pale.
    Science information is free, JoKe, available to all, you just have to know enough to make sense of it, or, for people like you, to find a high priest who says what you want to hear and for you to follow what they tell you to think.

    Like

  45. Walt Avatar

    Just waiting for the posts from the “crazy train” return trip. Ya just KNOW some local yahoos had to be on it. That will be as trashed as the streets of N.Y.
    They may need to scrap the damned thing.

    Like

  46. Gregory Avatar
    Gregory

    “It never occurs to the naïfs that the Rockerfellers’ decision may be constrained by ideology and motivated by politics.” -GR
    George, I think it has more to do with the social obligations of the Rockefeller heirs and the sorts of parties they want to be invited to. Not to mention the bucks they think can be made as the market coercions they want inflate the value of “clean” energy investments that are valueless without government action.

    Like

  47. George Rebane Avatar

    Gregory 1235pm – Well yes. “…social obligations of the Rockefeller heirs and the sorts of parties they want to be invited to.” = politics. Agree about their likely investment approach. Now why can’t a liberal put all that together?

    Like

Leave a comment