Rebane's Ruminations
September 2014
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[This November Nevada County voters will decide whether to adopt a new and revised marijuana ordinance or keep the existing one.  The marijuana cultivation issue continues to generate more heat than light.  Here is one comparative analysis that was published in the September edition of The Nugget, the monthly newsletter of Nevada County Republican Women Federated.  Its author Jo Ann Rebane is 2nd VP and Legislative Chair of the NCRWF.  (She also happens to be my wife.)

The piece includes a downloadable pdf of a spreadsheet that compares by attribute the current ordinance with the ballot’s Measure S.  I have also included that spreadsheet below the text.  Readers may wish to consider and share a third column that contains their druthers for a new ordinance. gjr]

Jo Ann Rebane

For a moment, set aside these facts: that Marijuana is listed by the Federal Controlled Substances Act as a Schedule 1 Drug which has a high potential for abuse; that, according to Dr. Mitchell S. Rosenthal founder of Phoenix House, substance abuse treatment and prevention center, “…pot damages the heart and lungs, increases the incidence of anxiety, depression and schizophrenia…”; that marijuana does lasting damage to the brains of adolescents and it impairs learning, memory and judgment according to Dr. Nora Volkow’s  research at  Northwestern University; that Colorado and Washington states have legalized recreational use of marijuana; that California voters in 1996 approved Prop 215 allowing marijuana cultivation for medical purposes only; and that cities and counties may adopt and enforce ordinances consistent with the state’s health and safety code. 

What we do need to focus on right here in Nevada County is Measure S on the November ballot.  According to Nevada County Supervisor Richard Anderson, proponents of Measure S want voters to replace a liberal ordinance with a more liberal ordinance.  The current medical marijuana cultivation ordinance, adopted in May 2012 specifies where, how, and how much medical marijuana may be cultivated in unincorporated residential and agricultural areas of the county. The current ordinance has enforcement, appeal and abatement provisions, and provides the community a means to alleviate nuisance marijuana “grows” and encourages those who legitimately grow it for their personal medical use to be good neighbors.  


Measure S reached our ballot as an initiative – written for and circulated by the Nevada County branch of Americans for Safe Access, possibly as a test case for a statewide push at a later date.  The Nevada County Board of Supervisors, the Coalition for a Drug Free Nevada County and the Nevada County Republican Party each oppose Measure S.  They find that, if approved, every aspect of the current medical marijuana cultivation ordinance would be loosened, favoring growers and disadvantaging the general welfare of the community.  Measure S weakens and removes current code provisions.  Measure S increases the allowed square footage of indoor “grows” by 500% in the extreme.  Measure S replaces the square footage limits for outdoor “grows” with specific immature and mature marijuana plant numbers and allows indoor and outdoor cultivation on the same parcel.  Measure S also allows renters to cultivate medical marijuana without obtaining their landlord’s written permission to use his property in that way and to make changes to his electrical and plumbing systems without his knowledge.  Measure S allows cultivation of medical marijuana without limitation in and on parcels zoned for commercial, business park, office professional, airport, and industrial.

Finally, Measure S reduces the set-back buffer distance from schools, churches, parks, daycare centers and youth facilities by 40% and removes set-back requirements from outdoor living areas and school bus stops.  Sheriff Keith Royal notes that Measure S eliminates enforcement, appeal,  and  abatement provisions which will leave the county no means to respond to citizen complaints regarding nuisance marijuana “grows”.  When does a garden become a commercial truck farm?  

I have made a detailed comparison of the current medical marijuana cultivation ordinance and Measure S.  It is available on our website as a printable pdf  www.nevadacountyrwf.org .

[4sep14 update] The Union ran a page-one story on Measure S and this piece today.  Here is the link to the same piece in its e-edition.

[6sep14 update] It occurred to me that no one has discussed how subsequent action may take place on an ordinance instituted through a ballot measure.  While a BoS initiated ordinance may be repealed or modified by a vote of the BoS, California code requires that ordinances instituted through ballot measures must come to a vote of the people again if they are to be amended or repealed.  The spreadsheet below has been updated to include this subject/category.]

[The spreadsheet is also available here Download Marijuana Meas S study 17aug14 (v6sep14) .  The current code – Ordinance 2349 – is available here (10MB download); and a copy of Measure S is available here.]

Meas_S_pg1

Meas_S_pg2

Posted in ,

257 responses to “Medical Marijuana Cultivation Initiative – Nevada County Ballot Measure S (updated 6sep14)”

  1. George Rebane Avatar

    GerryF 1108am – From your response it appears that my 1041am stands – for a landlord today there is neither a practical nor a constructive (legal term of art) way to ‘enforce’ any provision of a rental agreement, either explicit or implicit, that will make him whole (legal term of art). And we should note that being made whole goes way beyond having physical damage repaired, it also involves defending yourself against gratuitous government citations, assessments, fees, …, in addition to the expense of lawsuits wherein he may be either defendant or plaintiff.
    IMHO, including landlords’ rights in this discussion is paramount since so much of the stuff is grown illegally on rented properties.

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  2. Brad Avatar
    Brad

    ” landlords’ rights in this discussion is paramount since so much of the stuff is grown illegally on rented properties” – Is it the job of Measure S to rewrite landlord/tenant law? That sounds like a discussion for another day.
    It has always been a problem. People can rent a commercial property and pollute it with toxic waste from industrial processes, fuel spillage, etc. They can be sued. Get insurance to cover it (haha, good luck).

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  3. Walt Avatar

    I beg to differ Gerry, ” just compensation” is as clear and “transparent” as the Obummer administration.
    That’s my other beef about the MMJ laws/ordinances. ” Non profit”.. It’s anything BUT. Heck.. Just about every shop has a bill counter sitting next to the register. There is only one “line of work” that I know of that has that much “pays in cash” ability.
    Use that google earth, and you can’t swing a dead cat @ 10,000 feet without seeing all the grows. I don’t care what part of the County, let alone the state you care to look. Any bets every one has a “recommendation” nailed to the site?

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  4. George Rebane Avatar

    Brad 1130am – No, Measure S doesn’t have to “rewrite landlord/tenant law”, but any MJ production ordinance must recognize it simply because it is such a big factor in how the stuff is grown in built-up areas where neighbors are impacted.
    And I agree that bringing up the whole issue of landlord/tenant relations does highlight what has happened in this era of progressive fundamental transformation. Perhaps its broader discussion in the context of legalizing MJ grows will motivate a review and revision to put sanity back into such laws. (I’m not holding my breath.)

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  5. Walt Avatar

    From Brad earlier “Walt, we are talking about Measure S. If you want to talk about landlord rights, tax evasion,” ( take it to the sandbox)
    Did you even read the measure before piping up?
    The screwing over of people who rent property is more than enough to send “S” to the shredder.
    Many people who rent their property have a good portion of their life savings invested in that property, and NO insurance policy is going to cover that potential loss, from unscrupulous pot growing tenants.
    “S” just makes it a whole lot easier.

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  6. Walt Avatar

    One more statistic to think about. MJ ( legal or otherwise) is officially the #1 cash crop and “income” producer.
    That “non profit” end of things is really being enforced..
    And we need to make it easier to grow???

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  7. Walt Avatar

    Look what turns up today.
    http://www.myfoxny.com/story/26448679/city-mandates-free-medical-marijuana-for-low-income-residents
    Make less than 30 grand? Get a P.O. box in Berkeley. Your meds. will now be free.
    Black market addresses?

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  8. Brad Avatar
    Brad

    Walt, you are missing out. Think of all the “potholes”, seasonal ponds, irrigation and plumbing lines you could be digging.
    Pissed off about people making money? How much is too much money for a year’s work? $100,000 is about right as a minimum starting salary if you want to eat at local restaurants with tablecloths on them, take a 2-4 vacation, and buy some toys for the garage.

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  9. jarebane Avatar
    jarebane

    Re Brad C. 4sept14 11:04am Measure S, if approved will completely repeal NC Ordinance 2349 and would replace it with the language of Measure S.
    Re Patricia S. 4sept14 8:38am Thank you for serving as the passionate proponent for the medical marijuana contingent of our county. You have been reasonable, reachable, and put a friendly face on the medical marijuana movement. To claim however that patients are being slapped in the face strains the imagination as anyone with $160 or so can get a “recommendation” and cultivate for themselves. How can the current ordinance with 27 separate legal definitions be more deceptive than Measure S which has only 2 definitions which in my mind invites capricious interpretation/enforcement? If the current ordinance allowed cultivation on a slope or terrace, would that make the entire current ordinance acceptable rather than meaningless? For discussion of landlord tenant issues and eviction realities please see the GerryF and GeorgeR discussion starting at 4sept14 9:16am and continuing.
    Aside from relaxing every aspect of the current ordinance, the things Measure S has “left out” are remarkable. Leaving out enforcement “so that the sheriff can draft whatever measures he feels he needs to combat those who exceed the provisions of Measure S” is a problem for many of us. I don’t believe that the sheriff’s job is to draft measures or write regulations himself. That office enforces duly enacted laws and ordinances where the sheriff is named as “enforcement officer”. That Measure S has “left out” individual, civil protections of notice, appeal, review and abatement is another weakness. Measure S also leaves out explicit fencing requirements and explicit lighting guidelines. “Intending” to have those requirements doesn’t mean they are actually in the initative before the voters. Without specificity Measure S invites capricious and uneven enforcement. “Left out” of Measure S is any prohibition against cultivation in areas zoned for use as airport, commercial, business park, office professional, SDA, industrial etc. and by omission allows cultivation there without limitation. Finally, “left out” also is any language to implement or stop diversion of medical marijuana to the illicit drug market or create guidelines for distribution, transportation or storage of the medical marijuana material as claimed in Measure S.
    The current Nevada County ordinance 2349 has been amended several times and may not yet be ‘perfect’. But throwing it out and completely starting over with Measure S, with all of its delineated weaknesses, will surely create 1) more uncertainly for those patients who cultivate medical marijuana, 2) more aggravation, and 3) be a greater nuisance for their neighbors.

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  10. Gerry Fedor Avatar
    Gerry Fedor

    Jerebane – can you outline /document where it’s been amended?
    I find it hard to understand where you come up with the premise that Measure S be a greater nuisance for neighbors, when you consider that 97.3% of the properties in Alta Sierra, 99.1% of the properties in LOP and 96.4% of the properties will no longer be able to grow outside…..
    Can you explain this remark and the basis for it?

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  11. Michael R. Kesti Avatar
    Michael R. Kesti

    Walt 3Sep14 03:22 PM
    “Full legalization sounds good at face value. But there is where it ends.”
    Is that also how you feel about the repeal of Prohibition? In other words, do you feel that alcohol should be illegal, too?

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  12. Gerry Fedor Avatar
    Gerry Fedor

    Michael, I don’t think it ends at legalization as I want to see this become a job producing industry for Nevada County.
    One of the problems I have is that if this ever happened, we’d be throwing away hundreds of millions of dollars in income for our county.
    Plus look at the current workforce we have in this area, which have been cultivating their own product(s) for a long time. The cultivation of cannabis is not just “throw them there seeds in the ground, and shazam you have product…..”
    Many of these people have extensive knowledge in the cultivation of this product, which means good paying local jobs that will mean a trickle down into the community and jobs for hundreds of others. Nevada County is a black-hole for employment, but I for one, want to change that, and if cannabis become legal then I want to see local jobs being created.

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  13. Walt Avatar

    Just name the mind altering substance, at it will be abused. There are laws against drinking and driving, yet next to every damned bar, there is a parking lot.
    Pot today isn’t what it was back in the good o’ daze… Today’s grass can be as potent as heroin.
    We have enough lazy sob’s as it is, yet some want to compound the problem.
    Pot causes weight gain. It drives up your triglycerides ( my doc. said so)
    It’s hell on your lungs. No, it doesn’t prevent cancer.
    Unless you grow your own, you don’t have a clue what soil it was grown in.
    MJ is REAL GOOD at extracting heavy metals and other toxins from the dirt it’s grown in.
    There are just WAY too many variables.
    And with booze, not vary many can “make their own”. Only recently did “moonshine” become a store shelf item.
    BTW, Alcohol is well regulated, taxed, and plenty of quality control. Licenses to make and sell. But somehow we can’t do that with weed.
    There is a huge diff. between the two.
    Like I said before. I was for legalization before I was against it. ( I wised up.)

    Like

  14. jarebane Avatar
    jarebane

    GerryF 4sept14 2:39pm Amendments to the current ordinance can be found on the county’s website http://www.mynevadacounty.com/search/pages/Results.aspx?sq=1&k=medical%20marijuana%20ordinance&start1=1 The website is disorganized but I’m sure you will already notice 3 amendments on page 1.
    Even assuming that the data you present is correct, there are many other activities that are not permitted on ALL the properties in the communities you list. And there are other places like Grass Valley and Nevada City that are also off limits to growers, and most certainly even all of those don’t make up the whole county. But that’s neither here nor there. You may be surprised to learn that others balance this consideration with the many that I have outlined in my post and my 1:44pm comment.

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  15. Walt Avatar

    Think about this. “O” knows LIBS is in deep trouble come Nov., and for years to come. I won’t put it past him to pull one of his signature “executive order” law by pen and signature. Weed to be legalized from shore to shore. The “choomster”
    will do his best to give the Left the weed vote. ( Hell. trading votes for weed has already been done.)

    Like

  16. Michael R. Kesti Avatar
    Michael R. Kesti

    Walt 4Sep14 03:46 PM
    “BTW, Alcohol is well regulated, taxed, and plenty of quality control. Licenses to make and sell. But somehow we can’t do that with weed.”
    I accept that we haven’t but not that we cannot regulate, tax, and control the quality of legalized marijuana. Please explain why you believe that we cannot.

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  17. Walt Avatar

    Now that Berkeley has it’s new “free pot” for those who make less than 30 grand,
    the price in the dispensaries will necessarily go WAY up, to subsidize the free(loaders) There is no way they make that up in volume. That’s a great way to drive those dispensaries right out of that non profit business.( more unemployed.) Those few that make more than 30 grand will go right back to the good ol’ daze and by it off the streets at a reduced rate.
    If you want to smoke,,, have at it. At your own expense. Don’t go crying to the government for a welfare handout because you can’t hold a job, or get refused the job, because you can’t pass the drug test.
    That’s the way it is these days. ” drug free job sites”. Want your accountant doing your books stoned while crunching the numbers? How about your defense attorney?
    Look at the bigger picture of “unintended consequences”. Ya… It sound great at face value.
    Still think Colorado style legalization is a great idea? ( even there, they are having second thoughts.)

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  18. Walt Avatar

    “Please explain why you believe that we cannot.”
    How can you reasonably tax what anyone can grow in their own home?
    It’s like trying to tax your tomato plants.

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  19. Michael R. Kesti Avatar
    Michael R. Kesti

    “It’s like trying to tax your tomato plants.”
    Is it?
    Sure, some people like to grow tomatoes but it doesn’t seem to have put supermarkets out of the produce business. You’re free to grow your own tobacco for personal use, as well. It’s legal to brew beer and distill spirits, again, for personal use, too, and yet a great majority of people choose to purchase, and pay the tax, on alcohol products. Yet you expect “lazy sob’s [sic]” to expend the time and effort to grow marijuana when they would be able to purchase it in stores?

    Like

  20. Scott Obermuller Avatar

    from Brad – “$100,000 is about right as a minimum starting salary if you want to eat at local restaurants with tablecloths on them, take a 2-4 vacation, and buy some toys for the garage.”
    OK, you do mean eating out every night and the 2-4 meant 2 to 4 months in Europe?
    No wonder we have differences of opinion. It must cost you 5 bucks to take a leak.

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  21. Walt Avatar

    Michael. Anyone who wants it today has it, and it’s not even IN stores.
    “Granny” just has to ask the high school kid down the street, and it’s there within the hour. It doesn’t matter what time of year.
    Taxing and regulating the above board sale will be like trying to heard cats.

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  22. Michael R. Kesti Avatar
    Michael R. Kesti

    Yes, Walt, and anybody who wanted alcohol during prohibition had it, as long as they were willing to risk the criminal consequences. Repeal killed off gangsterism, stopped making criminals of causal users/drinkers, and allowed the creation of a legal supply industry that was, and still is, well regulated and taxed. There is every reason to expect the same to happen with legalized marijuana except, perhaps, the mindset of those who just cannot or will not see it.
    The criminalization of marijuana is in every way the same as the prohibition of alcohol.

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  23. Walt Avatar

    It sounds good in theory, but there is a HUGE diff. Back then plenty of booze came in from Canada. ( like weed and other drugs from Mex. today)
    Few people had access or the knowhow in distilling. Unless you lived in the boonies. Then the chase was on. ( The birth of NASCAR) The “G” man didn’t have the goods they do today.
    Supply was there, but limited. Unlike today where a plant can be found behind any given Manzeneta bush.
    This is a whose different breed of cat.

    Like

  24. Gerry Fedor Avatar
    Gerry Fedor

    Isn’t it interesting that some of us get to have a intelligent discussion, while Walt is telling us that Pot is as potent at Heroin and bringing in more mud (to throw on the wall) to see what sticks…..
    Jeeze guy, give it a break as in the history of mankind not one person has did from the ingestion of marijuana, and in fact I checked with the CDC toxicity website and (if my calculations are correct) you’d have to smoke 15 pounds in 15 minutes (and then you’d most likely die from asphyxiation….). Then we’re blessed hear about Berkeley’s free pot program, and how Colorado is sorry that they legalized it (their sorry they left in the stipulation that medical is taxed at a much lower rate than recreational material), and then pot is used for pulling heavy metals out of the ground, and so on, and so on……..
    I find it so confusing that in the past years you yell us all about smoking it and how you earned lots of money from it, but now all of a sudden your the “virgin mary”…..
    Seems to be that little hypocrite standing on your shoulder

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  25. Walt Avatar

    I guess they missed these two.
    http://www.cbsnews.com/news/two-denver-deaths-tied-to-recreational-marijuana-use/
    As far as “overdose”,, no. Yes, somewhat “safer” that booze.
    How about falling asleep at the wheel, and slamming into an oak tree?
    How much have you smoked Gerry? I probably have ya’ beat. I’m defiantly no stranger to the stuff.
    “I find it so confusing that in the past years you yell us all about smoking it and how you earned lots of money from it, but now all of a sudden your the “virgin mary”…..”
    Now you’ve crossed the line. I have NEVER sold it. Ever. Whatever I grew in the past was for my own use, and I had a VALID recommendation.( I still have the expired one in my wallet) Better reread where you got that.
    Great job jumping to conclusions.
    Posting while stoned again?

    Like

  26. Brad Avatar
    Brad

    Scott 448pm – sure, a person can live on less, but the Wiki on middle class wage range is 95-140k. Sorry, I left out the “week” in 2-4 week vacation.

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  27. Walt Avatar

    If someone can point out a way for reasonable and effective taxation,
    an ways to keep it out of the paws of school kids, I’d like to hear it.
    We have legal penalties for booze, how can those be applied to MJ?

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  28. Brad Avatar
    Brad

    Walt, you cannot keep anything out of the hands of anyone if they really want it.
    Kids steal the folks booze, cigs, etc. all the time.
    This is no different.
    People also work for cash all the time around here. Restaurant owners may, or may not report all their sales, servers may not report all their tips.
    You could dig a bunch of holes for some grower, get paid in cash, and not report it to the IRS.
    Anything can happen.

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  29. Walt Avatar

    “You could dig a bunch of holes for some grower, get paid in cash, and not report it to the IRS.” Yaa,, I was offered a short job like that, but they wanted to pay me in weed. Funny how that works. Growers don’t have any cash at plant’n time.
    Staying away from illegal activity is why I have never been on the wrong side of a jail house door. I plan on keeping it that way. A fast buck selling weed isn’t as important as keeping my right to own firearms, and voting.
    Being a felon is not a badge of honor.

    Like

  30. Gerry Fedor Avatar
    Gerry Fedor

    Sorry Walt, I’ve never smoked it, but my wife used it during her last days dying from Cancer….
    My father also used it before his death from Colon Cancer.
    My brothers use it, as one has Panic attacks on a weekly basis and this has solved that issue, while my other brother has served 4 tours and has lost his hearing in one ear and still has PTSD, but he uses it to cope.
    I find it very funny where you get your data, as let’s look at a single dispensary in the SF Bayarea – Harborside. 120,000 members and last year they brought in over $27,000,000 in income and the average sale was $73.00. You seem to want to tell everyone that Pot users are small time criminals, but the supporting data does not show that, in fact the LE data shows that operation of a liquor store will bring in much more crime that a dispensary.
    You complain about taxes, so let’s look at that. I know that through a quick survey of the ASA members at one meeting (this is not a scientific or substantiated survey) 95% of them stated that they reported all income, as this allowed them to deduct expenses (like a regular business), and then they spent their money, paid sales taxes, then that money was used by business owners to pay wages of their staff members, as well as pay rent on their building, pay their taxes, etc.
    Sierra Plumbing’s manager told me that they figured that they had $200,000 in sales from cannabis related projects, so what did you think they did with that money?
    They did things like pay salaries of staff, paid rent, etc……
    You seem to think that everyone is driving around with a new Porsche Cayman, while I see someone who’s paying their property taxes (and I find it humorous that she’s paying for the service of the group that wants to destroy her ability to sell to other members of her collective), or pay for Obamacare because her MS is so bad that her current medicine is not covering all of her needs…..

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  31. Gerry Fedor Avatar
    Gerry Fedor

    Walt, I also noticed that you place such a huge priority on keep you firearms as this is a right that you get according to our founding fathers documents?
    What’s your position on the FACT that if you have any cannabis and firearms on your property the local LE group can, and has charged people with the use of a firearm in the commission of a felony, which caries a mandatory 5 year prison sentence.
    These are people who had an old gun stuck in a downstairs closet that hadn’t been fires in 10 years, but they are now sitting in jail as the DA told them that he would pursue this charge if they did not plea to a 18 month charge…..
    You wonder why 97% of people arrested on Felony’s in the county never go to court, now you know why, as this is the modus operandi for the local LE and DA group.
    You crack me up as “no one’s going to take away my rights, but we don’t give a crapola about anyone else’s gun right who has a plant growing in their backyard……”

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  32. Michael R. Kesti Avatar
    Michael R. Kesti

    Walt 4Sep14 07:58 PM
    “If someone can point out a way for reasonable and effective taxation,”
    Reasonable and effective taxation can be applied, as I have already said in this discussion, in exactly the same way a we currently do with alcohol. I’ll now add, “and/or tobacco.”
    “an [sic] ways to keep it out of the paws of school kids, I’d like to hear it.”
    I submit that this will be easier when marijuana is a genuinely controlled substance rather than kicked it under the rug of criminalization. For proof ask any high school student whether it is easier to obtain a six pack of beer of a bag of pot. Their answer will be the pot and this is because pot’s distribution is by criminals willing to sell to children rather than by business people whose best interest is served by staying on the correct side of the law.
    We have legal penalties for booze, how can those be applied to MJ?
    I honestly don’t understand this question. To which, “legal penalties for booze,” is it that you refer?

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  33. Brad Avatar
    Brad

    Walt , you are all over the map here. Are growers so poor they can’t pay you, or are they unfairly raking in the big bucks?
    You want the government out of your gun safe and the tailpipe of your tractor, yet you support full Nannyism with regard to MMJ.

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  34. George Rebane Avatar

    Brad 717am – Is it beyond the bounds of reason to discriminate in what functions and aspects of one’s life they welcome and/or tolerate government’s involvement. While being a proponent of legalizing MJ, that doesn’t mean I want it legalized in any manner that you may suggest. And that even though I do want the government to minimize how it curtails my 2nd Amend rights. I can understand perfectly well why/how you may want much stricter gun controls and a lot few restrictions on the growing and consumption of MJ. Government does not have to applied to all things in a uniform manner.
    My own belief about MJ legalization have been on display for years since I got off the fence. But I sincerely believe that tighter controls are required on MJ than guns simply because of the their relative benefits to maintaining a liberal and civil society. In such expressions, neither of us should call the other a hypocrite.
    http://rebaneruminations.typepad.com/rebanes_ruminations/2008/12/off-the-fence-about-drugs.html
    http://rebaneruminations.typepad.com/rebanes_ruminations/2013/07/mindbending-marijuana.html#more

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  35. Gregory Avatar
    Gregory

    George, if guns grew on trees even gun controllers would give up. Cannabis is even easier to grow than trees.
    The libertarian position is it ain’t the government’s business what you possess. Any true criminality is related to use: unsafe vehicle operation, providing to minors, etc.

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  36. Walt Avatar

    “all over the map”?? Not so.. It’s obvious you can’t even pay attention, since you didn’t even comprehend that landlord issues with “S”. “Selective reading” again?
    I have no problem will the MED use. Show where I said otherwise. As for full legalization, it’s a real bad idea on the whole.
    Once legalized, then what? Employers can still require you to be “drug free”.
    Smoke on Friday, yet still test “dirty” on Mon.
    Yes. Us reformed smokers are a real buzz kill.

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  37. Walt Avatar

    “legal penalties for booze,”
    You know ,, DUI? Sale without a license/permit, sale to minors,,etc.

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  38. George Rebane Avatar

    Gregory 917am – Good point, one that highlights another reason I cannot call myself a true libertarian, and must suffer an amalgam of beliefs under the label conservetarian.
    I do believe in selected application of collective prophylaxis in processes where no such mediation would, with high probability, lead to damage/death/destruction to and of others (i.e. the innocents).

    Like

  39. Walt Avatar

    Fedor.. There is a new document out that spells out gun ownership.
    It’s called The Bill of Rights.. You may care to read it someday.
    Maybe you can find where MJ is written in. ( with a sharpey?)

    Like

  40. Gregory Avatar
    Gregory

    “Once legalized, then what? Employers can still require you to be “drug free”.”
    You bet. Just because something is legal doesn’t mean it should be condoned. Legal does not mean “good” or “approved”. It means the power of the government will not be used against you.
    Others are free to use their good judgment and are free to associate with you, or not.

    Like

  41. Brad Avatar
    Brad

    I am beginning to think the idea of conservative progressivism is to bring everything back to a 1950s baseline (regressivism, traditionalism?). In that ideal world, we would have our cigs rolled up in our white T-shirt sleeve, cruising the big V-8 (no smog controls allowed!) with a case of Hamm’s beer in the backseat, guns in the window rack, MJ is a felony, and the US is fighting a hot or cold war for hearts and minds somewhere. Happy Days reruns! Hey, that is what I am going to do (if I can get the ol’ Caddy’s breaks to work)- its car show weekend at the fairgrounds!

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  42. Gregory Avatar
    Gregory

    “I do believe in selected application of collective prophylaxis in processes where no such mediation would, with high probability, lead to damage/death/destruction to and of others (i.e. the innocents).”
    An example, please. The devil is in the details.

    Like

  43. fish Avatar
    fish

    Posted by: Brad | 05 September 2014 at 09:48 AM
    I’ll give you this Brad…when you project…you really, really, really see it through!

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  44. Walt Avatar

    A big boat of American steal? ( Nice!) Ignore the nasty looks from the Prius and Subaru, pro weed drivers. ( they want that dinosaur of a gross polluter scrapped and sent to China for cheap after market Toyota parts, made by 5 dollar a day slave labor)
    At least their not sending Oriental MJ over to cut into locally grown “products”. ( Smuggled opiates not withstanding)

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  45. Walt Avatar

    Since Gerry says he’s never partaked in the stuff, let me help ya’ out a little.
    You may get this feeling in your chest like you just saw your wife and your two “girlfriends” sitting at a table,,, “talk’n” .

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  46. George Rebane Avatar

    Gregory 952am – Letting a five-year-old, or, for that matter, anyone drive a car on public roads without first demonstrating their capacity to do so safely and responsibly.

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  47. Gregory Avatar
    Gregory

    George, that isn’t a possessory crime, which was what I was writing about, and is, in essence, the whole point of this thread, not to mention the allowing unlicenseable 5 year olds to drive motor vehicles on public roads isn’t the position of any libertarian I have ever heard of.

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  48. Michael R. Kesti Avatar
    Michael R. Kesti

    Walt 5Sep14 09:24 AM
    “You know ,, DUI? Sale without a license/permit, sale to minors,,etc.”
    Thank you for the clarification, Walt.
    My answer remains the same. These can all be managed in exactly the same way alcohol and/or tobacco are managed currently. A variation on the field sobriety test might be necessary but enforcing unlicensed sale, sale to minors, and such would be no different from alcohol and tobacco.

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  49. Gerry Fedor Avatar
    Gerry Fedor

    I find it to be very interesting when we talk about property rights and conservative thoughts, I thought those were very linked?
    yet this discussion turns into waltz on personal vendetta on obamacare, gun rights, and I’m variety of S….
    if you believe that we should have a ordinance that was created by law enforcement and their fabrications then vote no, but if you are like I and lots of others who believe in property rights and that law enforcement should not build laws then vote YES on measure S.
    if you believe everything that law enforcement tells you, then I have a beautiful bridge in San Francisco, it needs a little painting occasionally, that I will sell you for $1.00.

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  50. Paul Emery Avatar
    Paul Emery

    George
    Consistent with your concern expressed in your 9:33 “I do believe in selected application of collective prophylaxis in processes where no such mediation would, with high probability, lead to damage/death/destruction to and of others (i.e. the innocents).”…does that not mandate laws regulating the food industry that sells products that lead to childhood obesity and diabetes?
    “The childhood obesity epidemic is a serious public health problem that increases morbidity, mortality, and has substantial long term economic and social costs. The rates of obesity in America’s children and youth have almost tripled in the last quarter century. Approximately 20% of our youth are now overweight with obesity rates in preschool age children increasing at alarming speed. According to the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, the prevalence of obesity has more than doubled among children ages 2 to 5 (5.0% to 12.4%) and ages 6 to 11 (6.5% to 17.0%). In teens ages 12 to 19, prevalence rates have tripled (5.0% to 17.6%). Obesity in childhood places children and youth at risk for becoming obese as adults and associated poor health such as diabetes, cardiovascular disease, and some forms of cancer. Prevention efforts must focus on reducing excess weight gain as children grow up.
    Today’s children, ages 8 to 18, consume multiple types of media (often simultaneously) and spend more time (44.5 hours per week) in front of computer, television, and game screens than any other activity in their lives except sleeping. Research has found strong associations between increases in advertising for non-nutritious foods and rates of childhood obesity. Most children under age 6 cannot distinguish between programming and advertising and children under age 8 do not understand the persuasive intent of advertising. Advertising directed at children this young is by its very nature exploitative. Children have a remarkable ability to recall content from the ads to which they have been exposed. Product preference has been shown to occur with as little as a single commercial exposure and to strengthen with repeated exposures. Product preferences affect children’s product purchase requests and these requests influence parents’ purchasing decisions.”
    http://www.apa.org/topics/kids-media/food.aspx

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