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July 2014
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Democracy is the worst form of government, except for all those other forms that have been tried from time to time. (Winston Churchill from a House of Commons speech on Nov. 11, 1947)

George Rebane

On its centenary we revisit the world shaking impact of WW1.  The first of modern international wars did change the map of Europe and the Mideast.  Empires – Austro-Hungarian, Russian, German, Ottoman – fell and new nation-states arose from their debris cast asunder.  Countries’ borders were subsequently drawn upon the whims of powerful players who disregarded the details and longer term consequences of their dabbling with crayons on the maps spread before them.  It was time for a new world order, and the details could be sorted out later.

The winner in the new world order was something known as democracy.  No post-war nation-state would consider going forward without some celebrated expression of the kind of democracies that were introduced in America and France at the close of the 18th century.  And therein lay the problem that haunts, nay, compels our energies to this day – unfortunately democracy comes in two distinct flavors that make all the difference in the world.  In the sequel I quote philosopher and professor emeritus Claude Polin of the University Paris-Sorbonne who expands on the post-Enlightenment history of democracy in his ‘World War I and the Modern West’.

Fundamentally, democracy means that the people are sovereign.  However, almost all who believe in democratic governance are ignorant of its two distinct meanings and blind to its two opposing and competing ways of organizing society – in short, there are two ways for individual citizens to achieve sovereignty.  It is this distinction and the different regimes of public policy which then evolve that gives rise to the ideological polarity we enjoy or suffer from today, and that forms the basis for the debates in the media and in forums such as RR.


The first kind of democracy, in one form or another, is usually associated with the Right.  This form allows the citizen’s sovereignty to be expressed in weakly bridled individual liberties, self-reliance, action as a free agent to bargain with others for his loss or gain, and in general fend for himself in a society of equally enabled and variously endowed fellow citizens.  People such as these may call themselves “(classical) liberal, libertarian, hedonistic, mercantile, anarchistic, competitive, constitutional, or jungle-like, depending on the willingness of citizens to adopt common rules and sincerely follow them.”  I would also add ‘conservetarian’ to those labels.

The United States was founded on this form of democracy as the foundation for its ‘Great Experiment’ to determine whether such sovereign individuals are able to govern themselves.  As we have seen in changes wrought over the last century, the jury is still out on that question.

The second kind of democracy, again in one form or another, is associated with the Left.  This “is the other half, which believes in a kind of democracy that is not generally understood as such, because the supreme law—written or unwritten—or the most hideous crime is to stand out from the lot or appear to fare better than others.  Such were the egalitarian or totalitarian systems, as enacted in Revolutionary France in 1793, in Soviet Russia as of 1919, or again (horresco referens) in Nazi Germany after 1933—systems in which, whatever their differences, the leaders shared a common reference to the people as their power base.  In other words, most people have not as yet realized there is another way of being a sovereign citizen: to make sure no one else is more sovereign than oneself.” (emphasis mine)

At this point we recall that this leftward terminus of democracy has been invariably attained by a leader cum dictator – ‘the man on the white horse’ – who ascended to power on the willingly bent backs of the democratic throngs.  Lenin, Hitler, Mao, …, all were legitimized and gained their power from the people through a process “basically of a democratic nature.”  And to bring in another connection, the fact that democracy has these two sides has given rise to the notion of the Great Divide that has become an oft discussed topic in these pages and elsewhere.

Polin correctly posits that it is this intrinsic nature of democracy in which “lay the seeds of the (democratic) nations’ degeneration”, and as each attempts to “balance unceasingly between two equally satisfactory and unsatisfactory choices; it is doomed to wage a constant war with itself.”  In the larger view many of us, Polin included, fear that in this ongoing but little understood war the West will ultimately “surrender to invaders who have not fallen prey to the democratic delirium.”

I have previously explicated these arguments in the more nuanced discussion ‘Ideologies and Governance – a structured look’.  Pulling these thoughts together with Polin’s dissertations on this most important of subjects makes clear the nature of the tipping point from which we may already have slid to the wrong side of democracy.  Something to contemplate as we again celebrate America’s birthday on this Fourth of July 2014.

[Addendum]  Man is genetically pre-disposed to be a social animal, it’s been in our double helix since before the genus Homo came to be.  As we became more intelligent, we formed bigger and more complex societies that started with families and family groups, developed into larger tribes that then united under a chieftain who was anointed (sometimes self-anointed) king or monarch. 

To that stage of social development we always had sovereignty focused narrowly in a single individual or a small council of elites that surrounded him.  It was later that the notion of broadening sovereignty arose, first through what we today call the nobility, spreading then to men of means (land, property, commerce, …), and finally to anyone who could reliably fog a mirror.  It was these latter day developments of widening sovereignty that were labeled ‘democracy’.

As I argued in ‘Ideologies and Governance – a structured look' (linked above), the ideological spectrum of organizing society can profitably be viewed along the dimension that is bookended by autocracy and anarchy.  Anarchy is inherently an unstable social state since people will immediately begin organizing in groups in order to survive.  And it quickly becomes apparent even to the most dim that bigger groups working within a supportive social contract can survive better, and even whump some lesser groups, take their stuff, and enslave them.  This quickly brings us back on the road to civilization.

Autocracy, on the other hand, is an extremely stable form of organizing society and has demonstrated such mettle over the millennia.  Autocrats (kings, presidents-for-life, chieftains, …) usually evolve into tyrants – ‘power corrupts, and absolute power …’ – who then replace each other through various forms of bloodletting, but the autocratic social form survives.  This is the sense in which autocracy may be seen as a stable form of social organization.

Democracy is somewhere in the middle, and intrinsically unstable.   In the system theoretic view such unstable systems can be stabilized only through the application of a robust control mechanism that constantly keeps nudging it back toward stability as it tends to drift off one way or another.  The analogue of balancing a yardstick on one’s finger illustrates such an unstable system and the constant control required to keep the yardstick from falling over.

But as seen from the above development, democracy comes in two major flavors – one tending toward anarchy (the Right), and the other toward autocracy (the Left).  These sides of democracy are not symmetrical with respect to the kind (intensity?) of governance or control required to maintain a given operating point or functioning organization.  If we allow too much individual sovereignty (freedom, liberty, weaker social contract, too few regulations, …) then we drift toward a dog-eat-dog social order that tends to start correcting itself.  However, the correction does not mean that it will recover some former salutary state; the correction may go directly to autocracy.

And, of course, if we start over-organizing ourselves in order to, say, enforce some arbitrary levels of equity or equality, then we are definitely on the way toward the stable attractant of autocracy.  This tells us that more control or stronger/wiser government is required to keep us from sliding into tyranny.  The problem is that no one has yet found a way to maintain society at such a sweet spot where we beneficially trade off equality against liberty through central planning.  And this truth becomes more evident when we have attempted to centrally plan ever larger societies (e.g. nation-states) for the reasons expounded in these pages.   In sum, we don’t know how large groupings of diverse peoples will react to any given dicta from central planners – today’s headlines should provide sufficient evidence of that.  (In systems language, we don’t know the transfer function of such a large, complex, and dynamic system that reacts stochastically.)

It is in light of these factors that we should carefully husband the democracy that we have.  And in a future post we will examine why democracy has not been a practical form of governance for everybody on the planet.

Posted in , , , ,

87 responses to “The Democracy Dilemma (Addended)”

  1. fish Avatar
    fish

    George Rebane wrote a post about democracy. The only problem he focused on a the subject in a very narrow fashion as he does with all subjects, with an ideological agenda. Where he goes wrong is where he believes those who rise to power do so through democracy. They do so through institutions that form within the democratic process. Stalin, Hitler, and Mao didn’t rise to power by the people they rose to power through an institution, which plays a major role in government. Big difference. The people didn’t choose Hitler, Hitler chose the institution (Nazi Party) and climbed the ladder until the timing was right to put a totalitarian plan in action. SA Burning of Reichstag was the beginning of Hitlers rise to national and then international power, George knows this but doesn’t go into the history. What became the Nazi Party started out as a labor movement and as Hitler climbed the ladder he was systematically shifting the mission of the Party to what we all know as the Nazi’s. He did this within an institution and with massive propaganda campaigns. Where George gets it wrong with most of his critiques is he ignores how circumstances and situations were created and only likes to live in the results or outcomes of those circumstances/ situations.
    Only until we understand why things happen can we learn to repeat or avoid them in the future. George and his faithful fab five ignore why the revolution was fought, why the civil war was fought, why the 2nd amendment was established, why civil rights movement started and sustained, why women’s suffrage existed, why anti trust laws were put in place, why the Tilman act was established, why Teddy Roosevelt and Franklin Roosevelt were so popular, why the crash of 1929 happened, and why the civil and voting rights acts were needed? They only see that they have to work harder for less because society is slowly becoming more equal in opportunity and so they promote, support, and advocate the slowing down or even repealing the laws that make justice for all possible.
    Democracy means “people power” and what Locke and Hobbs did in the enlightenment era was come with the idea of democratic republic or popular sovereignty. But these ideas weren’t new they were idea that started long before Hobbs and were first officially introduced in policy during the magna carta and go far back as Aristotle. Magna Carta didn’t really help the peasants but just like everything it was the first step in governing powers acknowledging that people other than royalty had rights and were entitled to justice. Justice is the key to a democratic society where people are citizens not subjects. We have not reached justice for all yet but that is what makes the United States so great, from day one we have been expanding democracy and justice to the people. What we have as a democratic republic were results of thousands of small battles for equality and justice. The Peasants Revolt 14th Century is one of those battles and is a major factor in what eventually influenced Thomas Jefferson and the founders of the USA after it evolved from place to place. Hobbes and then Locke really dove into the ideas and it was through their works Jefferson and Madison were focused on justice, which is essentially the foundation of the US Constitution and its limitations on government powers. The US Constitution are restrictions on the power government can force onto the people/ citizens, unless the people unite together to amend these limitations. In essence, people power. Power of the government is derived from the governed not the other way around.
    This is where the crux of the corporate personhood debate falls, corporations receiving US Constitutional rights as a person instead of a man made entity or institution that only has privileges not constitutional rights. Where it gets tricky is where does the line between individual people and their rights separate from the corporation privileges? The right wing says there is no line when it comes to constitutional rights but do think there is a line when it comes to privileges. That is not justice and does not fit into the ideals of the founders of this nation that fought such special privileges for corporations such as the East India Trading Company, which was the final straw in that pushed a group of revolutionaries to commit a terrorist act upon the company and their goods in Boston Harbor.
    There is so much to talk about on this subject I am going to have to leave it here. George might a have a PhD in physics but I guarantee this average everyday American has done way more research and has a fuller understanding of democracy than he will ever have despite the 30 years in age difference. It is not because I am special but rather that George doesn’t believe in democracy therefore never really took the time to try and understand WHY it is so important.

    Here ya go Ben….fixed that for you…no charge!

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  2. drivebyposter Avatar
    drivebyposter

    I’d have to say that ‘democracy’ in it’s various forms is a side effect of an underlying culture rather than a prime mover.

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  3. Russ Steele Avatar

    Some thoughts on our current democratic condition from the Diplomad who served in Central America and shares his insight, stating with this:
    The reverses American and Western interests now suffer around the world come as a direct result of Obama policies which aim at nothing less than transforming the United States from the world’s most powerful country and a liberal western democracy into a flaccid, politically correct socialist monstrosity that distances itself from its western civilization origins and becomes something else entirely.
    More HERE. Why are all the “children” coming to our southern border? Free stuff and the promise of more free stuff.

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  4. fish Avatar
    fish

    That is right Fish, just cross out history if it doesn’t fit into your ideology. No wonder you have such little substance to your comments. It seems that pasting comments of others along with one sentence critiques is as deep as you can go?
    Try and have a nice Independence Day.

    How is that really any different than what you do Ben?
    And as to substance….well that’s subjective…I don’t see how your turning in the work of others and personal continuous bleating can be considered substantive…..but if it works for you by all means please continue.

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  5. Russ Steele Avatar

    Some thoughts on Young Ben and his failure to engage in the discussion on this blog.
    http://sierrafoothillcommentary.com/2014/07/04/local-liberal-seeks-intelectual-safety/

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  6. Todd Juvinall Avatar

    Ben Emery is the result of the flawed education system we are trying to fix. As an example of the lack of critical thinking taught, we see how his generation thinks. Cut and paste others and call it your own. His Vice President Joe Biden started it all.
    I think there is now a backlash against the strategies and opinions of people like Ben Emery. I saw the interviews of Bill Ayers this last week and my guess is, Ayers is Ben Emery’s hero. Probably Frisch and Pelline’s as well. GOD help America.

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  7. Walt Avatar

    Just why would South West Airlines be flying into Beale?
    Over an hour ago said commercial jet came in on a rarely used flight path. ( right over my house) It just left backtracking. That would be one way of getting those illegals up this way un-molested by the angry public. “O” and Co. have been using military bases all over to “process” “O”‘s invitees.
    Seems Steve’s “shipment” has arrived.

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  8. Joe Koyote Avatar
    Joe Koyote

    Walt –for what purpose would the gov’t be flying illegals into Beale.. or anywhere else? Are these people in immigration custody for deportation?

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  9. Bill Tozer Avatar
    Bill Tozer

    Joe K and Walt: The answer is as plain as the snort on yer faces. Didn’t you read about the big grow busts down near Smartsville just outside Beale? 7 camps inhabited by folks of Hispanic origin the news said. We now have a grower farm worker shortage in these parts.
    Fly ’em in and release them on their own recognizance. Don’t fret. They promised to show up for their deportation hearings. Besides, Southwest has the cheapest rates. Glad gobberment is finally watching its pennies with all these whistle blowers running amok.

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  10. stevenfrisch Avatar
    stevenfrisch

    Must be a battalion of Honduran children coming to take your guns and your property Walt. Each will be carrying a copy of Mao’s little red book, an AK-74 and a signed picture of President Obama.

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  11. fish Avatar
    fish

    Must be a battalion of Honduran children coming to take your guns and your property Walt. Each will be carrying a copy of Mao’s little red book, an AK-74 and a signed picture of President Obama.
    Well there certainly here to take American tax dollars…..and this from people probably have prior claim….you know….citizens.
    Any compromises your side is willing to make to get an immigration bill through Steve?

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  12. fish Avatar
    fish

    …there
    “They’re”…shit!
    Wouldn’t you and jeffy to sprout another set of woodys that will go wasted and unused like todays earlier examples concerning Russ’ misspelling of “intellectual”.
    I thought fatty might actually swoon.

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  13. Bill Tozer Avatar
    Bill Tozer

    Great post again, Dr. Rebane. I enjoyed your Reader’s Digest condensed version. I especially took to heart your quote concerning the Great Divide of one’s perception of democracy; “it is doomed to wage a constant war with itself.”
    Allow me to pay tribute to a man I never met, yet impacted my life:
    Around 1970 or earlier I read a book called “Devil at My Heels” by Louis Zamperini. Being a former cross country and long distance runner I was drawn to his book. He talked about partying during school at USC and showing up on race day and winning. I could relate to that. Caused much resentment with his fellow runners cause he would not join them on the train (back in the day) to go to meets at the other Pac 8 schools.
    Yet, his own words and autobiography stuck in my mind for decades. The details of being adrift on the life raft with no supplies in shark infected water for 47 days near death and starvation only to sight a “rescue” ship in the distance…which turned out to be a Japanese warship.
    The details of 2 years of more starvation and torture in the Japanese POW camp. When they found out he was a runner (his 4:04 mile in the 30’s was the American Record at the time) they would beat him and force him to race against the best of the Japanese soldiers. If he won, he and his fellow POW’s were beaten. If he lost, the same result.
    After the war, he started building a Christian summer camp in the forest for kids to go to for a retreat. He had no money and lived on faith and prayer. His prayers were answered as obstacle after obstacle he overcame, giving thanks to the one who answered his prayers.
    I have not even heard the name Loius Zamperini in 40 years. Read he died yesterday. My first thought was IF he made it one more day he would have died on the 4th of July as a fitting ending. Then read there is a book about him on the NYT best sellers list and movie coming out in December. I am pretty sure the movie will omit all the Christian stuff that he did for most of his adult life after his trials by fire in his youth, but who cares. It was Devil at my Heels that stuck with me straight from the horse’s mouth.
    Thus my saying “Whatever don’t break ya will make ya”
    Have a safe and sane 4th of July, Mr. Zamperini.

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  14. George Rebane Avatar

    BillT 148pm – Good remembrance of Louis Zamperini; we saw a tribute to him by Chris Wallace on Fox News.
    Administrivia – I note that a bunch of comments having nothing to do with the post are creeping in here. Please use the sandbox for comments that are not obviously related to my posts. Thank you.

    Like

  15. stevenfrisch Avatar
    stevenfrisch

    Todd in his wisdom missed the delicious irony of an ideologue misspelling the one word that is perhaps most opposed to blind ideology. It is not misspelling the word my friends it is the rejection of the ‘life of the mind’ that is the root of intellectualism that is the point.

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  16. George Rebane Avatar

    Administrivia – A couple of gentlemen thought that I was just joshing in my 210pm; their pithy (yet irrelevant to this post) comments have been unpublished. Can’t figure out what Mr Frisch is talking about in his 312pm, so I’m giving it the benefit of my ignorance.

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  17. stevenfrisch Avatar
    stevenfrisch

    Clearly my response to Todd was in response to his joking about some of us teasing Russ about misspelling intellectual [sic]. If that post was unpublished mine has no relevance. Or perhaps I posted it in the wrong place. Since only a few people are following today I think most of them can put two and two together.

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  18. fish Avatar
    fish

    Can’t figure out what Mr Frisch is talking about in his 312pm, so I’m giving it the benefit of my ignorance.
    More pettiness over at jeffys…rest assured despite posted denials….it was briefly high comedy over there.
    Stevie…..any compromises to get immigration legislation?

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  19. stevenfrisch Avatar
    stevenfrisch

    Seriously fish the position I stated already contained numerous ‘compromises’.

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  20. Todd Juvinall Avatar

    Yeah fish, you can’t decipher the brilliant writings and positions of the man? What a hoot!

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  21. George Rebane Avatar

    Steven Frisch – I apologize for missing out on the thread wherein you offer compromises on immigration policy. Is it too late to ask you to summarize those compromises since I do believe they are at least obliquely related to the democracy discussion since Obama told us today that the illegal hordes flooding across our border are doing it in part to enjoy our democracy? I would like to respond to you.

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  22. Bill Tozer Avatar
    Bill Tozer

    Mr. stevenfrisch. You proposals for immigration reform are not out in left field. One thing I have heard all my adult life (besides putting all the illegals in Texas or Arizona and fencing off the whole state) is the usual standard pat answer. By that I mean spouting off standard solution that will solve everything. In theory, yes.
    The standard solution/answer I am referring to is IF WE help the economies in the 3rd World/Latin America people won’t want to come here. Also, stop the drug trafficking at the source. Similar to The Bush Doctrine of pre-emptive strike in a way if you think about it concerning drugs and the drugs’ country of origin. Briefly, we are hell bent on helping other nations eradicate drug manufacturing and the supply routes. Does no good when massive and wholesale corruption has infected every local police/federali shack. Just look at how many Mexican police cross our borders on a nightly basis protecting the smugglers. And they are armed to boot.
    The real issue I would like to address is by raising the economic bases/status of foreign countries AND raising the individual financial situations of the poor masses in our own hemisphere, we inadvertently lower our own standard of living. Seems to be the case. China soars, we have stagnate wages and output. Only poor job prospects in the USofA seems to deter a few handful of the thousands that cross illegally. The threat of the hammer by ICE/The Obama Administration is a joke to them and it is well publicized in their native countries and by word of mouth.
    Illegals breaking into our country know if they make it past the immediate border region and get a couple hundred miles or so into our interior they are home free. Only ones caught at the border face the ticket home. The rest are either blocked from deportation by local authorities or by ICE itself.
    Finally one overlooks human nature. Even if the countries that are the homeland to most of our illegal aliens violating our laws and busting into our Sovereign nation were to achieve a higher standard of living in their native countries, they will still come. Build it and they will come. We already built it. We are the beacon on the hill. Human nature always sees the grass as greener on the other side of the semi-fenced border. A chance to start one’s own business/self-employment (even if one earns the most modest of incomes) is the beacon of the hill. The opportunity to have a fair day in court, to walk down the street, to be free of death squads roaming the streets at night, free of state government/local authorities extortion and shakedowns, to do what one pleases within the law, is more than money can buy to millions, i.e., the yearning of individual freedom and relative safety that burns in the bosom of all mankind.
    Here I hope are four points of agreement:
    https://fbcdn-sphotos-d-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-xpf1/t1.0-9/1798684_10151961885430911_1125127973_n.jpg
    https://scontent-b.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xpf1/t1.0-9/10014911_10152021835790911_6685649719142524116_n.jpg
    https://scontent-b.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xpf1/v/t1.0-9/10271578_10152063170500911_7508601792798122785_n.jpg?oh=b247cb8f55b0f538a2f375b2343e5414&oe=540F24F8
    https://scontent-a.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xpa1/t1.0-9/1898039_10151961895375911_406242594_n.jpg
    I know, I know. I am stuck in the 80’s. Better than being stuck in the 60’s.

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  23. Bill Tozer Avatar
    Bill Tozer

    Dr. Rebane: the comment you are looking for was posted by: Mr. stevenfrisch | 03 July 2014 at 08:03 AM on the July 1,2014 sandbox. Not bad. Gotta give credit where credit is due. Not bad at all.

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  24. Todd Juvinall Avatar

    The answer to prosperity and the plight of these people from south of the border is easy. RAISE the MINIMUM WAGE in those countries. Just like here in America! Tell El Salvador etal to raise their minimum wage to say $25 bucks an hour and the people will no longer be poor. At least that is what I see the left saying about people here. LOL!

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  25. stevenfrisch Avatar
    stevenfrisch

    To place this conversation in context here is George’s original post, when asked by MichaelK about how he would deal with the illegal immigration issue:
    “MichaelK 536pm – Great question Michael. My best answer to that is that it doesn’t adequately deal with the 11M+ illegal aliens already in the country. Hunting them down and deporting them is not an option in the context of our culture and values. So we need to come up with an augmented immigration policy in which we 1) unequivocally seal our borders (as I have specified before), and 2) prescribe a means of permanent residency for those already here that 2.1) prescribes a fair path to citizenship, and 2.2) doesn’t allow the expansion of that population through collateral immigration of relatives. In short, secure the geography of the United States as 1) prescribed by the Constitution, and 2) for promoting the current national interests of America.”
    George Rebane
    And my reply:
    “Ironically I am very close to George in the specific immigration recommendations, with the exception of the realization that although we must try mightily to secure our borders, and I support an increased presence on our borders to do, ultimately we can’t secure them if the economic and security opportunity afforded here is disproportionately so much greater than that afforded in immigrants home countries. I would try to seal the borders, but I would also work very hard with Central American countries and Mexico to try to improve their economies and reduce drug trafficking which would also make our neighbors better trading partners for the USA and less of a security risk to us.
    I also think some special status has to be created for two classifications of people for humanitarian reasons: children of immigrants who have been naturalized and children of illegal immigrants brought to the country before the age of majority, and; the families of immigrants who have been naturalized, through sponsorship and/or preferential treatment in application for a green card.
    I supported the BUSH II immigration proposal…you can look that one up.”

    Where I agree with George is that we are socially and culturally unwilling to forcibly deport 11+ million people. I agree with Bill that even if we can help our neighbors improve their economies there will still be some illegal immigration. It is a matter of scale.
    I disagree that an improvement in the economies of our neighbors would be at the cost of the US economy, I actually think it would be to our benefit economically, because those countries would become more valued trading partners and would be better markets for US goods and services. If economics teaches us anything it is that wealth creation is not a zero sum game.
    A bigger problem is that illegal immigrants play an important role in American business and capitalism through the increased availability of a cheap labor and as long as American businesses are allowed to continue to take advantage of that pool of cheap labor, the problem will continue. The only way to address that issue is to enforce labor laws prohibiting the use of illegal immigrant labor, which would have the effect of raising labor rates for American workers. It is ironic that many of the very same people who are vociferously against illegal immigration are also beneficiaries of that cheap labor pool. The bottom line is restricting illegal immigration will increase prices for consumers, and we have to be willing to accept that if we are going to control immigration.
    It is true that there is an increasing link between illegal immigration and illegal drugs. We are the worlds number one consumer of illegal drugs.
    Along with improving economies and law enforcement in drug producing and trafficking nations, we should work with them to improve democratic institutions, which would have the concomitant effect of reducing corruption. History shows increased wealth and broadly sharing wealth through the encouragement of a strong middle class increases the rule of law, particularly contract and property law, and reduces corruption.
    But that even that will likely not be enough because it does not deal with the demand issue in the drug market. The drug market acts like any classic underground economy, work only on supply and prices merely go up. I think a longer term solution would be to decriminalize drug use, control sales of drugs in the demand nations, and tax drugs, using the proceeds from the tax for drug use prevention, interdiction and treatment. Here I am with Gary Johnson of New Mexico. The war on drugs is a dismal failure, leading to the United States having one of the highest per capita rates of incarceration in the world and spending billions per year on associated criminal justice. That money would be better spent treating people who use drugs.
    The problem I have with the standard conservative position is that it often boils down to ‘seal the borders”. It is just not that simple. Big problems often have complex solutions, that’s why they are big problems.

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  26. Bill Tozer Avatar
    Bill Tozer

    What we need is GOD…(good orderly direction). No cuts in line. While millions are taking the long legal road to legal residency with the hopes of possible citizenship, so called amnesty is a blatant violation of our sense of justice, common decency, and above all, fairness. Yes fairness to those who play by the rules.
    The reason conservatives such as moi demand “seal the borders” first before proceeding with the goodies for illegal non residents is because we have been fooled before. We are always promised the borders will be sealed, but the freebies and nice stuff is passed out first and our borders are an afterthought at best. Pass all the legislation you want, but if funding for building a fence or more Border Patrol personnel AT the border is not funded by Congress or held up in some dark devious House committee, it is a bold face lie and quite insincere IMHO.
    Sure, they add more pencil pushers in a far away offices but not in the field. We need to patrol our borders with all hands on deck and closer to the stink. Right now the Border Patrol has to fight to pay our officers overtime. That is how the game is played. Make it first and foremost and you will see goodwill returned on the part of the Right.
    Totally agree with all laws should be followed. Throw the employers that hire illegal people in the clink or fine them exactly as the law provides as written. I don’t care a lick if the National Chamber of Commerce is opposed to it or not. What is good for the goose is good for the gander. Lawbreakers are lawbreakers, be they employers or employees. That will help legal residents of the USA, be they here on a work visa or permanent residency and the ones never mentioned in this debate, i.e., the blue collar citizens of the USA. Also enforcing the employment laws will dry up a lot of the employment opportunities for those that sneaked into our Sovereign Nation leaving their trash strewn across our beautiful deserts and protected wetlands. Bad for the environment and desert turtles and birdies.
    Someone with a green card is here legally so I ain’t talking about them.
    We already have laws on the books that a family member of a resident has to be sponsored by the host and they are ineligible for handouts. However, there is no enforcement mechanism for this, just somebody’s promise to take care of Aunt Marie or elderly parents or hoodlum cousin Romeo. Cousin Romeo is a free loader and now we the people are stuck paying for him and his antics.
    Concerning the war of drugs, blame the cartel or blame the end user here in our homeland. Either way, no government has ever stopped the black market (or underground economy) be it prostitution, drugs, or American made Levis whether it was the USSR, Red China, Cuba, Iran, or Iceland. That is not the real immigration issue.
    We need a Good Orderly Direction of addressing immigration reform. But secure the border first and then we can make new changes. Keep the promises of the “old” immigration reforms and I have an open mind.

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  27. Bill Tozer Avatar
    Bill Tozer

    Clarification. The war on drugs does affect us (via illegal immigration) as well as the forgotten land of Central America and the top half of South America. More on that later.
    First, you cannot be a citizen of a country without borders. Obama has stated without hesitation that our borders are secure. Nothing to see here, let’s move on to reform. All reform lies on the foundation of secure borders. All reform is premised on the assumption that the borders are secure and we can deal with the problem of those that are now currently here. That is why we cry in vain “Secure our borders first!”, then let’s talk.
    OK, now to Central America. Expats I know down there say the forgotten region has changed radically and it now unsafe again. Honduras is currently ground zero as the murder capital of the world, Expats in Belize don’t go out at night, a recent development over the past 2 years. El Salvador is still fighting their ruthless civil war. Guatemala is now a dangerous place to be. But it is one expat friend in Honduras that opened my eyes in the land the USA forgot..
    Our war of drugs has disturbed the normal drug routes to the US. The Central American countries have always kept a blind eye to the routes as the traffickers did no harm and kept their eyes straight ahead on the beaten path. But, the mules now have gotten hooked on meth and are acting violent. Murders are resulting and it is not just gangs fighting gangs or a turf war. Its the mules that are going crazy and there is more.
    Compound this with new routes through new areas of countries and the unspoken compromise between cartels and governments (especially Mexico.) The old rule was we (Central American and Northern South America political governments) won’t mess with you (the traffickers) as long as you be on your way quietly and don’t open any product (meth, heroin, narcotics) in our country. The War of Drugs changed the rules and for revenge the Cartels started opening the product AND dealing the poison to the peoples of Latin American countries that used to be earmarked for the US. So hard core drugs use is soaring along with murders and executions just for fun. Nicaragua is in turmoil and we don’t even have an embassy in Ecuador or Bolivia. Embassy employees are forbidden to travel anywhere at night and are allowed to use only one solitary highway in broad daylight in Peru, and that is only if completely necessary.
    Yes, we focused intensely on the Middle East and then Obama said Iraq is a done deal and now we are going to focus on….drum roll please….on Asia. Thus the term “The Forgotten Land” when referring to Latin America. Latin America is our immigration problem, but it still remains the land the US forgot.
    Improve their economies? Colombia has cleaned up its mess, taken the cartels by the horns and chased them into the mountains, instituted democratic reforms and the unions here and the libs in the Senate have blocked any free trade agreements with Colombia. Go figure.
    Mr. stevenfrisch, like you said, that’s why they are called big problems. I won’t pretend this has anything to do with democracy, Dr. Rebane.

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  28. stevenfrisch Avatar
    stevenfrisch

    “Obama has stated without hesitation that our borders are secure.”
    Yeah well Bill this is where we are going to start disagreeing. Border security is a relative issue. The fact is the borders may not be completely ‘secure’ but they are more ‘secure’ now than they have ever been, under any President or any administration, and more money is being spent to secure our borders now than has ever been spent even adjusting for inflation. When we had a chance to increase that security even more under President Bush II it was Republicans who balked at the compromises necessary to do so, leading to the stalemate we have today.
    The standard critique of the Bush II plan included the refrain ‘secure our borders’ but I must note no one wanted to spend the more than $30 billion per year that is estimated to cost, or seriously curtail US employment of illegal immigrants as cheap labor, thus the proposal waned. You get what you pay for in this world and we have been unwilling to pay the price, and that refusal to pay the price has been bi-partisan.

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  29. stevenfrisch Avatar
    stevenfrisch

    I agree this is ‘nothing to do with democracy’ but this is where George asked the question.

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  30. George Rebane Avatar

    stevenfrisch 439am – A careful perusal of this comment stream reveals that first mention of immigration occurred in Mr fish’s 338pm which apparently launched the immigration thread with the help of my question.
    No matter, I do believe there is more than a tendril between the examination of democratic forms and motivations for movement of people between sovereign nation-states. Given the excellent questions and offerings by Messrs Kesti, Frisch, fisch, and Tozer, and the currency of the immigration topic in our national affairs, I’ll post on some expanded thoughts the tie-in between democracy and immigration so we can have its comment stream contain more focused threads on the larger topics. In the interval, I need to addend this post with a critical point.

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  31. fish Avatar
    fish

    I agree this is ‘nothing to do with democracy’ but this is where George asked the question.
    This has everything to do with democracy…..! After all the “compromise” that democrats receive in this legislation is a fresh supply of “new meat” who will be in all probability beholden to TEAM EVIL at least for a few election cycles. So there’s that.
    I’m still fuzzy on the compromises that benefit me as a “regular guy”.
    TEAM STUPID is falling all over themselves to accommodate their patrons in big business who are salivating over cheap labor and fattened consumer markets. TEAM EVIL…we already know that they are looking forward to a generation of grateful and compliant brown hands pulling the lever for the democrats…..plus there’s always the benefit to the bottom line from yoking all that off the book income for more government revenue.
    Much like the wretchedly misnamed “Affordable Care Act” I’m sure that the promises made by the Affirmative Action Figure in the White House will be broken once he gets his signing ceremony. His political double dealing conveniently ignored by caudillo worshipers in the media like Chris Matthews.
    I suppose that if I stretch it a bit I can find some good in the bad. It will be fabulous to see the cognitive dissonance it induces in poor soft headed Ben Emery when the new favored ethnic group really fucks over the old favored group. Plus it’s been fun reading articles from “Socialist Worker” that read like something from Free Republic” or better yet “American Renaissance”!

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  32. fish Avatar
    fish

    Oh and Steve…in complete agreement regarding your “War on Drugs” position.

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  33. Todd Juvinall Avatar

    The left says Americans should have a “livable” wage here so raise the minimum wage. Why can’t they force the El Salvadorans etal to do the same? I mean, hey, if the theory of theirs works here why not there? Anyway, every time the dems get a raise here in the minimum wage forced on employers, it then is communicated to El Salvadoran and their desire to come for that increase heats up. Too funny but real.
    Perhaps Mr. Frisch could take his business knowledge to El Salvador and have some seminars on raising the minimum wage? Why waste his time on the evil American business community when all those poor souls south of the border could benefit from SBC’s and Mr. Fs expertise?

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  34. Gregory Avatar
    Gregory

    Frisch should identify what of the so-called Bush II immigration policy he is specifically endorsing… first, it might be a description of Bush II policy that no one in the Bush II administration would recognize, and second, Bush II, unlike the current administration, had to work with the other party all 8 years and didn’t 1) refuse to bargain and 2), when Dems didn’t cave, didn’t just ignore the law and do what he damned well pleased. In short, Dems, even before they controlled both houses after the 2006 elections, had their fingerprints on White House policy.

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  35. Gregory Avatar
    Gregory

    By Jove, Todd is on to something.
    All President Obama really needs to do to solve our immigration problem is to force all the countries to our south to adopt a minimum wage greater than the current US Federal minimum wage, and the GOP probably won’t lift a finger to try to stop him. A $12 an hour wage should be enough to make the Coyotes howl in pain, without customers for their human smuggling services.
    Maybe Frisch will get right on it; the human rights implications would be enormous, if the world could stop laughing.

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  36. Todd Juvinall Avatar

    The minimum wage in Mexico is the equivalent of 12 bucks a DAY here. So Frisch has his work cut out for him.

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  37. Gregory Avatar
    Gregory

    Todd, they just need a living minimum wage to create a truly robust middle class.
    Just put on your progressive thinking cap, and it will make sense.

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  38. Todd Juvinall Avatar

    You are right Greg. They are telling us in DC right now, the dems that is, that human dignity and the purchasing power of our people demand the wages be raised by government. I think we are on to something. If it works here according to the left and it is a moral, ethical and wonderful thing to do, then they should export that to El Salvador etal. Frisch should get SBC right on this. He would be a hero. He would provide a living wage in those countries, dry up the illegal immigration problems and save us taxpayers billions! My my.

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  39. Walt Avatar

    Seems Team Lefty here in Nev. Co. has done it once again. Some may know that the local movie houses are owned by one family, and devout Lefty’s. Once again another “Right leaning” film isn’t on the silver screen. “America” isn’t on the play list. This isn’t the first time. Just like the a movie that was critical of Mikey Moore’s fakeumentery got passed over. ( Family friends of Mikey)
    So off to Yuba City to see said flick, since LIB “censorship” is alive and well in town.

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  40. George Rebane Avatar

    Walt 1009am – Since the theaters are privately owned (by Lefties), they have every right to show only the films they want. But what all should note is this is nothing but another local example of the ongoing national one-sidedness of how the Left views legitimate public discourse and debate of contending ideas.
    A more cogent example is the firing of Professor Caleb Rossiter as a longtime fellow of the leftist Institute for Policy Studies. Rossiter, whose field is mathematics and statistics, finally broke with the climate change hysteria faithfully promulgated by IPS. He published his take on foibles of climate modeling (first covered 7 years ago in these pages) in the WSJ and promptly fired for abandoning IPS, but more importantly for violating “the left’s climate of intellectual conformity.”
    I and other AGW skeptics hereabouts have been taken to task by local leftwing hacks with no understanding of the sciences – physical, data handling, and computational – that should form the bases of the public debate, and most certainly for making public policy. They just repeat the mantras of their dear leaders that ‘the debate is over’.
    Moreover, what this shows about such progressive intellects is that they are not even capable of correctly assessing the types and levels of claimed support that such complex issues entail. And here I mean to expand beyond climate change to issues like healthcare, energy policy, immigration, America’s hegemony, education standards, … . Their arguments cite and handful of illogically related slogans, and then they stand back to bask in their own righteous glory. And any voice in opposition needs to be stilled by whatever means ranging from the IRS through FCC and FEC to even local spigots like movie theaters, newspapers, and radio stations.
    (In any event, RR continues to welcome the contention of ideas from all quarters.)

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  41. Brad Croul Avatar
    Brad Croul

    The movie sounds like a real winner Walt – not! Here is one review – although, I would imagine, not the one you want to read. Enjoy!
    “In 2012, political commentator, author, disgraced former university president and convicted felon Dinesh D’Souza released “2016: Obama’s America,” a documentary that purported to investigate our president’s past in order to uncover his hidden agenda that, left unchecked, could very well lead our country to the brink of destruction. Although the film was mocked by many of those who bothered to review it (it did not receive advance critics screenings, meaning that there were few reviews when it opened and that supporters could then claim that it was being ignored by the lamestream media) and most of D’Souza’s findings and conclusions were widely discredited by scholars, journalists and others with a weird reliance on things like facts, the film became a hit amongst conservative audiences and would pull in $33 million dollars at the box office, making it number 2 on the list of top-grossing political documentaries, just missing out on beating “Fahrenheit 9/11” by only $86 million.
    D’Souza has returned with “America,” a movie that arrives on the heels of an ad campaign that suggests that it will be a bit of speculative fiction examining what the world might be like if George Washington had been felled by a British bullet during the Battle of Brandywine (on September 11, 1777, for those of you playing at home) and, as a result, the Revolutionary War had been lost and the United States of America had never existed. However, anyone turning up at the multiplex in order to see what promises at first to be a blend of “It’s a Wonderful Life,” the immortal anti-Communist short “Red Nightmare” and an evening of the History Channel will be outraged to discover that, following a brief prologue, the film completely abandons that promised conceit and never returns to it. If it is any comfort to those viewers, it is that they will soon be sharing their outrage with anyone who turned up in the hope of witnessing cohesive thinking or rudimentary filmmaking skills.”
    http://www.rogerebert.com/reviews/america-2014

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  42. Todd Juvinall Avatar

    I wrote a Voices back in 1997 stating I believed “global warming” was a hoax and simply a new way to tax and control. Even then I got nasty attacks from the local liberals wishing me a quick demise.
    Then I started paying attention to the lefts stealing and burning conservatives news papers on campuses across America. And the attacks, pies etc., on conservative speakers. I knew we were in for a long battle. Thank goodness for David Horowitz!
    Locally, the family that owns the theaters were constant attendees at the General Plan and zoning hearings in the mid 90’s. They were opposed to the Milhous Ranch “General Plan Amendment” request. (they are neighbors) I spoke for the Milhous’s and we got their GPA and zoning. But the nastiness of “I have mine” was so profound that to this day those people lost my respect for their lack of fairness. I believe the owner of the theaters is now SYRCL’s President. Anyway, I have no ill will against them but they do show their colors when things go off the reservation of liberalism. I hope they run the movie because if they don’t we will all have to add ozone to the air in our drives to the next town.

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  43. Todd Juvinall Avatar

    I don’t go by critics who are usually lib I go by box office receipts. Just like “The Passion of the Christ” was panned and made $400 million for Mel showed the crotcs mostly are full of it. Here is an excerpt explaining the movie a little nit from the Tomes-Picayune.
    “D’Souza’s newer film, whose full title is “America: Imagine the World Without Her,” sets out to do just that: It uses dramatic re-enactments to help imagine what the world would be like if America never existed — and uses its conclusions to counter what it says is a deeply anti-American slant that has come to color the nation’s history.”

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  44. Al Avatar
    Al

    We have to change our Military’s tactics for making the world safe for democracy.
    Boots on the ground?! What if they fell on innocent peaceful civilians at terminal velocity?
    Such dispersed collateral damage hurts our stated cause.
    And in a progressive inclusive democracy such as ours, it is specist to unfairly
    use idioms and images regarding our fellow earthship travelers, which some derisively
    term “animals”. Laws must be passed and strictly enforced that prohibit insulting talk such as
    “Monkey around”,”You’re Chicken”, Kangaroo Mob”, “Badger”, “Rat”, etc.
    Likewise, our distastful political party images of a Donkey and Elephant are supremely cavalier
    and one day will be changed, I hope. Icons such as Rock, Paper and Scissors might be deemed
    democratically-correct should a viable third party arise, but these do have dark connotations
    with historical coveting and violence.
    Also our democratic war(s) on drugs must be stopped.
    Stimulants might be useful for short periods, but shirley our soldiers
    should not fighting under the influence of Quaaludes and such.
    Although, Hashish and SSRIs are said useful for control and command.

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  45. Brad Croul Avatar
    Brad Croul

    I would not pay to see this movie, but I might watch it just to see if I agree with the reviewer.
    The last sentence in the review snippit could suggest why many theaters might take a pass on this movie. Most people want to see award winning or popular movies. This does not sound like a movie that film buffs would enjoy. I cannot determine if this movie would be popular in our purple neck of the woods. Maybe Walt could hire out the Magic Theater for an evening screening of the flick.

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  46. Todd Juvinall Avatar

    D’Sousa’s last movie was a pretty big hit and made great money. If you knew who he was and his personal story I guarantee you would rush to see this movie.

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  47. stevenfrisch Avatar
    stevenfrisch

    Let’s be clear, the comments of Greg and Todd are a great example of why thoughtful people don’t post here. I made a very simple statement, I said that I supported the Bush II immigration bill as proposed.
    Here is what was proposed:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comprehensive_Immigration_Reform_Act_of_2007
    I was willing to support Bush’s bill because it represented a reasonable compromise between Republican and Democratic proposals, and gave each side a substantial portion of what they wanted, although neither got all of what they wanted.
    I supported the bill supported by a Republican President at a time when the outcome of the 2008 Presidential election was uncertain, and control of both the House and Senate was razor thin, and there was a reasonable expectation that control could shift either way.
    Instead of addressing the issues Greg and Todd chose to 1) suggest I should move to El Salvador, and 2) suggests my support was of something ‘no one would recognize.’
    These are essentially issues or opinions completely irrelevant to the issue being discussed.
    That is why people like me who are otherwise rational would come to a blog like this and tell Todd he is an complete idiot and Greg that he is motivated by irrational hate rather than sound public policy and should seriously consider anti-depressants and anti-psycotics like Haloperidol.
    Embedded in Greg’s comments was also this gem of complete misinformation: “Bush II, unlike the current administration, had to work with the other party all 8 years and didn’t 1) refuse to bargain and 2), when Dems didn’t cave, didn’t just ignore the law and do what he damned well pleased.”
    Well as it turns out Bush II’s party controlled both houses for the vast majority of his term:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Party_divisions_of_United_States_Congresses#mediaviewer/File:Combined–Control_of_the_U.S._House_of_Representatives_-_Control_of_the_U.S._Senate.png
    Bush II used more executive orders during his administration than Obama:
    http://www.brookings.edu/~/media/blogs/fixgov/executive%20orders_chart.jpg
    And Bush II vetoed more bills during his administration than President Obama has:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_United_States_presidential_vetoes

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  48. Russ Steele Avatar

    Here is another reviewers point of view on America. You can find the full review HERE. Some snippets from the review:
    • The Leftists have been screaming about the evils of this film which is strange. If they actually saw it, they would see that the Communist Democrats get full screen time to spew their hatred for America without interruption in the very film they condemn. The problem is that they want no opinion but theirs to be heard.
    • Mr. D’Souza then tells the more valid story of America while addressing all the issues the liberals brought up. He shows how slavery was all over the world and how England kidnapped frightened white children to take them to work factories and shows that the white people were not exclusively cruel slave owners.
    The most fierce cruel slave owner of all, was William Ellison,owning 60 slaves and who is…black. A profile of a black woman C.J. Walker that everyone referred to as, Madam Walker, was brought up with all the disadvantages of those who claim them, yet managed to push herself through school, then college and creating a product that she began manufacturing and became the first black millionaire. No one stopped her from being a success.
    She began speaking to many groups who think only, ‘disadvantage,’ and meld into that mentality which they wallow in and take comfort in. After telling her own story she works to see them put themselves on the right side of opportunity not the space of no opportunity which so many have fallen into.
    • Capitalism is explained with more clarity than has ever been given and certainly shows to be superior to any kind of totaliltarian government rule.
    • The Leftist reviews of this film are on the verge of insanity. They say the film is produced shabbily, is jumpy, not well photographed and even criticize the music. NONSENSE!
    The film is an EXCELLENT production, well paced, the graphics are superb, even in the opening credits where some names are shown on a drive in move screen. All the scenes inacted are totally professional. This is a class A Production, the music is very good and helps establish the scenes and moods.
    • This film is highly recommended to all. Attend it. Have your church do a block ticket-buy to attend. We might just learn to appreciate what others risk their lives to come here for.

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  49. Russ Steele Avatar

    Steven Frisch@03:32PM
    • The number of Executive Orders has no significance, it is the content and the thrust of the Executive Orders that counts.
    • If Harry Reed would let about 200 plus House Bills in the Senate hopper come up for a vote, Obama might have more bills to veto. The do nothing Senate has create a bill drought for Obama’s desk.
    You need to re-adjust your thinking cap.

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  50. George Rebane Avatar

    stevenfrisch 332pm – I am sorry that Todd’s and Greg’s remarks did not suit you. But I do take exception to your observation that “thoughtful people don’t post here.” Perusing the thousands of RR comment streams over the years, one can’t help but encounter very deep and sophisticated perceptions, counters, and anecdotes offered by RR readers. Even you have now and then contributed in such a manner. In any event, I am grateful for the people who do comment here, no matter what ideology comforts them or how they choose to expose their deeply held beliefs. But to be sure, there is always dissension in these comment streams. This is not a forum dedicated to building consensus, only the exposing of readers’ ideas, readers who must then defend or flee when their precious beliefs are taken to task.
    Now I do admit that some of the head butting here is gratuitous and seems like some people are exercising their relief valve after encountering a world that is daily more absurd and insane than it was yesterday. Of course, on RR we do our best to connect such frustrations to the collectivists and the unread. But here you can take anyone’s ideas to task, IF you have a substantive case. Otherwise the error of your ways will be pointed out with everything ranging from a Bronx cheer to more measured critiques that at times appear impenetrable to the recipient of such attentions. I myself am humbled and also take great comfort in the blog’s ascending readership stats, and the emails I receive from readers who do not want to enter the public fray.

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