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Democracy is the worst form of government, except for all those other forms that have been tried from time to time. (Winston Churchill from a House of Commons speech on Nov. 11, 1947)

George Rebane

On its centenary we revisit the world shaking impact of WW1.  The first of modern international wars did change the map of Europe and the Mideast.  Empires – Austro-Hungarian, Russian, German, Ottoman – fell and new nation-states arose from their debris cast asunder.  Countries’ borders were subsequently drawn upon the whims of powerful players who disregarded the details and longer term consequences of their dabbling with crayons on the maps spread before them.  It was time for a new world order, and the details could be sorted out later.

The winner in the new world order was something known as democracy.  No post-war nation-state would consider going forward without some celebrated expression of the kind of democracies that were introduced in America and France at the close of the 18th century.  And therein lay the problem that haunts, nay, compels our energies to this day – unfortunately democracy comes in two distinct flavors that make all the difference in the world.  In the sequel I quote philosopher and professor emeritus Claude Polin of the University Paris-Sorbonne who expands on the post-Enlightenment history of democracy in his ‘World War I and the Modern West’.

Fundamentally, democracy means that the people are sovereign.  However, almost all who believe in democratic governance are ignorant of its two distinct meanings and blind to its two opposing and competing ways of organizing society – in short, there are two ways for individual citizens to achieve sovereignty.  It is this distinction and the different regimes of public policy which then evolve that gives rise to the ideological polarity we enjoy or suffer from today, and that forms the basis for the debates in the media and in forums such as RR.


The first kind of democracy, in one form or another, is usually associated with the Right.  This form allows the citizen’s sovereignty to be expressed in weakly bridled individual liberties, self-reliance, action as a free agent to bargain with others for his loss or gain, and in general fend for himself in a society of equally enabled and variously endowed fellow citizens.  People such as these may call themselves “(classical) liberal, libertarian, hedonistic, mercantile, anarchistic, competitive, constitutional, or jungle-like, depending on the willingness of citizens to adopt common rules and sincerely follow them.”  I would also add ‘conservetarian’ to those labels.

The United States was founded on this form of democracy as the foundation for its ‘Great Experiment’ to determine whether such sovereign individuals are able to govern themselves.  As we have seen in changes wrought over the last century, the jury is still out on that question.

The second kind of democracy, again in one form or another, is associated with the Left.  This “is the other half, which believes in a kind of democracy that is not generally understood as such, because the supreme law—written or unwritten—or the most hideous crime is to stand out from the lot or appear to fare better than others.  Such were the egalitarian or totalitarian systems, as enacted in Revolutionary France in 1793, in Soviet Russia as of 1919, or again (horresco referens) in Nazi Germany after 1933—systems in which, whatever their differences, the leaders shared a common reference to the people as their power base.  In other words, most people have not as yet realized there is another way of being a sovereign citizen: to make sure no one else is more sovereign than oneself.” (emphasis mine)

At this point we recall that this leftward terminus of democracy has been invariably attained by a leader cum dictator – ‘the man on the white horse’ – who ascended to power on the willingly bent backs of the democratic throngs.  Lenin, Hitler, Mao, …, all were legitimized and gained their power from the people through a process “basically of a democratic nature.”  And to bring in another connection, the fact that democracy has these two sides has given rise to the notion of the Great Divide that has become an oft discussed topic in these pages and elsewhere.

Polin correctly posits that it is this intrinsic nature of democracy in which “lay the seeds of the (democratic) nations’ degeneration”, and as each attempts to “balance unceasingly between two equally satisfactory and unsatisfactory choices; it is doomed to wage a constant war with itself.”  In the larger view many of us, Polin included, fear that in this ongoing but little understood war the West will ultimately “surrender to invaders who have not fallen prey to the democratic delirium.”

I have previously explicated these arguments in the more nuanced discussion ‘Ideologies and Governance – a structured look’.  Pulling these thoughts together with Polin’s dissertations on this most important of subjects makes clear the nature of the tipping point from which we may already have slid to the wrong side of democracy.  Something to contemplate as we again celebrate America’s birthday on this Fourth of July 2014.

[Addendum]  Man is genetically pre-disposed to be a social animal, it’s been in our double helix since before the genus Homo came to be.  As we became more intelligent, we formed bigger and more complex societies that started with families and family groups, developed into larger tribes that then united under a chieftain who was anointed (sometimes self-anointed) king or monarch. 

To that stage of social development we always had sovereignty focused narrowly in a single individual or a small council of elites that surrounded him.  It was later that the notion of broadening sovereignty arose, first through what we today call the nobility, spreading then to men of means (land, property, commerce, …), and finally to anyone who could reliably fog a mirror.  It was these latter day developments of widening sovereignty that were labeled ‘democracy’.

As I argued in ‘Ideologies and Governance – a structured look' (linked above), the ideological spectrum of organizing society can profitably be viewed along the dimension that is bookended by autocracy and anarchy.  Anarchy is inherently an unstable social state since people will immediately begin organizing in groups in order to survive.  And it quickly becomes apparent even to the most dim that bigger groups working within a supportive social contract can survive better, and even whump some lesser groups, take their stuff, and enslave them.  This quickly brings us back on the road to civilization.

Autocracy, on the other hand, is an extremely stable form of organizing society and has demonstrated such mettle over the millennia.  Autocrats (kings, presidents-for-life, chieftains, …) usually evolve into tyrants – ‘power corrupts, and absolute power …’ – who then replace each other through various forms of bloodletting, but the autocratic social form survives.  This is the sense in which autocracy may be seen as a stable form of social organization.

Democracy is somewhere in the middle, and intrinsically unstable.   In the system theoretic view such unstable systems can be stabilized only through the application of a robust control mechanism that constantly keeps nudging it back toward stability as it tends to drift off one way or another.  The analogue of balancing a yardstick on one’s finger illustrates such an unstable system and the constant control required to keep the yardstick from falling over.

But as seen from the above development, democracy comes in two major flavors – one tending toward anarchy (the Right), and the other toward autocracy (the Left).  These sides of democracy are not symmetrical with respect to the kind (intensity?) of governance or control required to maintain a given operating point or functioning organization.  If we allow too much individual sovereignty (freedom, liberty, weaker social contract, too few regulations, …) then we drift toward a dog-eat-dog social order that tends to start correcting itself.  However, the correction does not mean that it will recover some former salutary state; the correction may go directly to autocracy.

And, of course, if we start over-organizing ourselves in order to, say, enforce some arbitrary levels of equity or equality, then we are definitely on the way toward the stable attractant of autocracy.  This tells us that more control or stronger/wiser government is required to keep us from sliding into tyranny.  The problem is that no one has yet found a way to maintain society at such a sweet spot where we beneficially trade off equality against liberty through central planning.  And this truth becomes more evident when we have attempted to centrally plan ever larger societies (e.g. nation-states) for the reasons expounded in these pages.   In sum, we don’t know how large groupings of diverse peoples will react to any given dicta from central planners – today’s headlines should provide sufficient evidence of that.  (In systems language, we don’t know the transfer function of such a large, complex, and dynamic system that reacts stochastically.)

It is in light of these factors that we should carefully husband the democracy that we have.  And in a future post we will examine why democracy has not been a practical form of governance for everybody on the planet.

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87 responses to “The Democracy Dilemma (Addended)”

  1. Todd Juvinall Avatar

    Steve Frisch supports most of Bush’s Immigration policies which were defeated! Wow! Now that’s rich. I think I say without a doubt that his positions are totally ridiculous and have no place in American Law. Stealing the ideas of others and then patting oneself on the back is like old Joe Biden stealing from others and claiming ownership. Name dropping is too transparent.
    Illegal Immigrants need to do do the right thing and go home, apply legally and wait their turn. Pretty simple.
    Steve Frisch needs to take his SBC south of the border and get those banana republics to raise their minimum wages to a “living wage” as he wants here. That way the folks have no economic reason to come here. So go give it a shot Steve Frisch. Then you and the commie guest of yours, Van Jones, can claim credit for a solution!
    Too funny.

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  2. Gregory Avatar
    Gregory

    “first, it might be a description of Bush II policy that no one in the Bush II administration would recognize, and second, Bush II, unlike the current administration, had to work with the other party all 8 years and didn’t 1) refuse to bargain and 2), when Dems didn’t cave, didn’t just ignore the law and do what he damned well pleased.” -Me, 8:49AM
    Sure pegged that one.
    “Instead of addressing the issues Greg and Todd chose to 1) suggest I should move to El Salvador, and 2) suggests my support was of something ‘no one would recognize.’”
    Not at all, Frisch, just stating the obvious, that you hadn’t actually specified what you were claiming to have supported. No, your oblique mention of the “Bush II immigration bill” isn’t equivalent to specifying the “Comprehensive Immigration Reform Act of 2007” which is what someone trying to be informative would have done. I think it’s rich that it wasn’t Bush’s bill AT ALL, it was authored by Reid and Reid was its sole sponsor.
    Were you lying, Frisch, or did you just think it was Bush’s bill because he “strongly supported it” when there wasn’t enough support for it in Reid’s Senate to get it passed?
    “And Bush II vetoed more bills during his administration than President Obama has” – Frisch
    A bogus statistic, since his party not only controlled both houses to begin with but was able to pass legislation through both houses without a single Republican vote, and as RS has pointed out, has had Reid in control of the Senate where 200+ bills that passed the House are being held up, while Obama bashes the House for not passing the bills Obama wants.
    The “complete misinformation” was the Frischian twisting of my completely true statement… GW Bush was working WITH Democrats from the Beginning. Including his buddies Hillary Clinton (remember the Iraq war powers) and Teddy Kennedy (remember No Child Left Behind?).
    “Greg … is motivated by irrational hate rather than sound public policy”. Not irrational hate, Stevie, rational disdain, and not for sound public policy… disdain for your treatment of the truth and, yes, irrational hate. I feel your frustration, Steve, I really do. You know in your heart of hearts you are right but just can’t make the words come out so they are both truthful and rational, so you end up soiling yourself.

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  3. Al Avatar
    Al

    We can be Numero Uno again if we had 1.5 billion folks within our sieve, Imean border. Soon, we can be ahead of both
    China and India if we die. Nature and banking shall not be denied.
    Natural resources, like human resources, don’t matter in the run; they’re just statistics, so I’ve heard.
    Plants, animals, soil and water don’t pay homage, succor or taxes to the Crown, so they don’t matter to the greater scheme.
    Democratic countries like Australia, who don’t allow self-defense, guns or counter-speech, will not prevail in
    their resitance to the fecund peaceful religious folks adjoining their north. Same goes for Europe, albeit with
    southeastern solutions.
    Western thought has had its long fine day. However, it has been eating its own for far too long and now walks on three legs.
    The meek younger stronger pragmatic people will prevail, for as is said, demographics is destiny.
    Though, we might again have the fire in the belly to preserve our ways as do today’s Russians.

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  4. Bill Tozer Avatar
    Bill Tozer

    “And to the Republic for which it stands…” Our immigration policy and our immigration laws are currently at odds. Me thinks it is of utmost importance to consider what kind of immigrants do we want here.
    I am sick and tired of hearing “We are a nation of immigrants.” Not sick and tired of this fact or actual words, but sick and tired of how that phrase is being skewed, screwed, blued, and tattooed. We are a nation of legal immigrants that got disinfected with hoses and bug killer when they arrived at Ellis Island. That is the fact, Jack.
    Of course we need people to clean my bedpan and lick the sweat off my scrotum. But wouldn’t it be preferable to have the majority of our immigrants much much smarter, wiser with bigger craniums, quicker on their feet, way more industrious and enterprising than I or you (dear reader) will ever be in this lifetime? Shouldn’t we actively welcome and assimilate into our society only the World’s best and brightest? Think selfishly. They will be making higher incomes than us, be more stable, pay more taxes, use less social services, never ever be an actual drain on our social services or crowd our prisons and pay for my retirement to boot! We need the best this orb has to offer, not like those lazy houseboys I keep down in the basement with Wicked Wanda.
    We need to think of our nation’s future. Oh, some will say I am against my brown skin brothers from La Cuidad de Pablo, a region where siestas are a national pastime. Nonsense. We should not judge our future citizens by the color of their skin but solely by what they will do for America. Ask not what the Gringos and GI Joes will do for you, but ask what you will do for us Gringos! We should welcome the best and brightest with open arms and send the Statue of Libery with its huddled masses inscription back to France. Who wants the lame, the blind, the feeble, or the slow when the cream of the crop is knocking to get in.
    This is what we should be discussing. Yep, there is a need for folks to do jobs Americans don’t want to do, but for Pepe’s Sake, don’t make them citizens!! Be nice to them, buy them a ham for Christmas, but don’t let them stay in our house!! Comprende?

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  5. Bill Tozer Avatar
    Bill Tozer

    The above post was dedicated to the ones I love, with a big shout out to Brother BM.

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  6. George Rebane Avatar

    BillT 745pm – You are on the right track Mr Tozer, but it is a lonelier road than we need. More on all this later.

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  7. fish Avatar
    fish

    Of course we need people to clean my bedpan and lick the sweat off my scrotum.
    Thanks for the visual Bill.

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  8. Joe Koyote Avatar
    Joe Koyote

    A point of illegal immigration. Why America likes and wants illegals. 1) They work hard 2) Because they are illegal, they will work for less and won’t say anything if they are getting screwed by their employers. This depresses wages and working conditions for citizens and legals alike which equates to larger profits for employers. 3) They pay withholding taxes they never will get back. 4) they pay into social security and never collect. These examples do not include illegals working under the table for cash but refers to the “phony ID” kind that populate our nations restaurants, fast food joints, meat packing facilities, agriculture and other low end jobs. All that will ever happen with immigration issues is lip service. It is a great political football because nothing will ever happen to change it and whichever party is out of power can blame the other party for failing to address the issue, wink wink.

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  9. fish Avatar
    fish

    A point of illegal immigration. Why America likes and wants illegals. 1) They work hard 2) Because they are illegal, they will work for less and won’t say anything if they are getting screwed by their employers. This depresses wages and working conditions for citizens and legals alike which equates to larger profits for employers. 3) They pay withholding taxes they never will get back. 4) they pay into social security and never collect. These examples do not include illegals working under the table for cash but refers to the “phony ID” kind that populate our nations restaurants, fast food joints, meat packing facilities, agriculture and other low end jobs. All that will ever happen with immigration issues is lip service. It is a great political football because nothing will ever happen to change it and whichever party is out of power can blame the other party for failing to address the issue, wink wink.
    Most of your points have already been made.
    A country can live with the above quite nicely if the numbers are kept reasonable, no voting rights are granted and the social services they collect is kept minimal.

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  10. George Rebane Avatar

    fish 917am – “Most of your points have already been made.” Not only that, but all of JoeK’s 905am is posted here and appears right above your comment. You continue the habit of inserting the comment to which you want to respond as if your comment will find itself isolated from its comment stream, and therefore the reader will not understand your own contribution. Fear not, your comment will remain in its sequence with all the others. Therefore, you can simply reference the previous comment(s) that you address, and not add previous comments in their entirety or in large part to the copy in these streams which are already of considerable length. I shudder to think what these pages will look like if your malady becomes contagious among the other commenters. We’ve talked about this before – perhaps you could take the cure and inspire others who now and then exhibit similar symptoms. 😉

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  11. fish Avatar
    fish

    OK

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  12. stevenfrisch Avatar
    stevenfrisch

    Accumulated through several posts here we are seeing the emergence of the real issue.
    Joe K has aptly sized up the real opposition.
    Conservatives are all for illegal immigration if it means their allies in agribusiness, hospitality, construction and manual labor can access a pool of cheap labor to undercut American workers, and control the numbers to benefit their industries. Where they have a problem is the idea that we are a nation of immigrants and that people coming to our shores are here to create opportunity for themselves and their families. Keep them illegal and they live in fear and can’t organize for better wages, thus American wages will be pushed down and all of ‘business’ benefits.
    I think the statement, “A country can live with the above quite nicely if the numbers are kept reasonable, no voting rights are granted and the social services they collect is kept minimal” pretty much clears up the issue, as long as we can control them, exploring labor is just hunky dory.
    But the statement by Bill is most illustrative. He presupposes that brown people from south of our border will contribute less and be less valuable than others (by that I assume he means Indians, Europeans, and Asians). That presupposition is the inherent racism of our system speaking. And it is counter-intuitive to the reality of immigrant labor. Sure we need some intellectual capital imported in key industries, but the jobs your pampered kids are unwilling to take are the ones licking your aged scrotum and cleaning your bedpan Bill.
    No MBA from India’s National Institutes of Technology is going to taking that job Bill.
    By they way Bill I think you should do a little reading up on the history of immigration in the United States. The vast majority of immigrants who came to the USA in the mid to late 19th century and early 20th century did so illegally. Only a small minority of them came through Ellis Island legally. Prior to 1875 immigration was not federally regulated it was regulated by the states, and almost all of the individual states had specific laws limiting immigration or requiring registration of some sort. Almost NO ONE followed those laws, they simply showed up. Millions of Germans, Irish, Swedes, Norwegians, French Canadians and Englishmen entered the US illegally. It was only when immigration on the west coast switched to Chinese and Japanese immigrants that we passed our first federal immigration laws in 1875 and 1882, largely excluding asian immigrants. Later when immigrations shifted to eastern and southern Europe and the immigrants were Poles, Russians, Italians, Bohemians, and middle easterners did we begin to restrict based on quotas and literacy tests.
    Bottom line is that if you are an American the chances are very high that your ancestors were illegal immigrants.

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  13. fish Avatar
    fish

    Posted by: stevenfrisch | 06 July 2014 at 11:14 AM
    Par for the course Steve…your reading comprehension deserts you when you mount your soapbox.
    I don’t want to exploit them. They shouldn’t be here at all! Those jobs that “americans just won’t do will get done at some price. By making the counter argument it is you who supports the wage suppression policies preferred by agribusiness, hospitality, construction etc. The accuracy of my prior statement regarding, ..A country can live with the above quite nicely if the numbers are kept reasonable… is self evident.
    Your majesty of the law president is illegally forcing the issue Chicago style and not a peep from Steve about it’s rightness or legality! Aren’t you quite the American Patriot!!
    The people in those buses are Guatemalan and Honduran citizens. They have no right to be here and certainly no right to line jump over American citizens for the social services that are extracted from all our taxes.
    And Steve…..it’s time to put away the old bromide that….sniff..But we’re a nation of immigrants…sniff! We were at one time! We are no longer.

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  14. George Rebane Avatar

    Good discussion gentlemen. I would remind us all that just because a given policy was not implemented/enforced in some past epoch does not justify its not being implemented/enforced today, especially after laws have been passed that explicitly disambiguate past policies.
    I do agree with SteveF and JoeK that capitalists seeking to reduce costs (recall labor is above all a cost and not a social obligation to a for-profit enterprise) will game the system to their benefit. And that means exploiting illegal aliens whenever possible. But as Mr fish points out, just forcing employers to pay higher wages to illegal aliens simply exacerbates the porous border problem by inviting more of them to come and break our laws while doing nothing to increase America’s legal workforce participation. In short, it hurts most our own bottom quintiles in skills and education.
    Any way you seek a reasonable solution to our illegal alien and immigration policy problems will require FIRST securing the border. I have calculated that a ‘secure border’ is one that still allows about 15,000 illegal entrants, or about 0.005% illegal population growth a year. At that level of ‘leakage’, taking the time to make sound policy about the disposition (path to permanent residency, citizenship, etc) of those millions already here makes sense.

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  15. Barry Pruett Avatar

    More severe punishment for businesses that hire illegal immigrants would do two things. First, businesses would be less likely to hire illegals. Second and demand goes down, supply will go down too. If you come down hard on business, illegals that are already here will leave and hopefully come back legally.
    That said the process of immigration should be simplfied (after securing the border) so that immigrants that want to live here can get here legally and inexpensively.
    The United States is the land of opportunity. If folks want to immigrate here and live in birth place of liberty and freedom legally, the barriers should not be overwhelming.

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  16. Bill Tozer Avatar
    Bill Tozer

    Mr stevenfrish, a larger question among many larger questions on illegal and legal immigration issues is what do they bring to the table??? Within this question is what do 6th grade dropouts who ARE currently here illegally bring to the table. More specifically is what do 7th grade dropouts from south of da border bring to the table? Even more narrowly is how these illegal low paid workers affect those that already have green cards here and at what cost does having unsecured porous borders strain our social safetynets, funding for public education, and affect Homeland security? Darn, I hate typing on IPads….gotta keep it brief. 🙂

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  17. Walt Avatar

    Barry,, Going after the employers is all well and good, yet LIBS have made sure that employers can’t check with any reliability of ones legal status, which actually gives them an excuse in front of the judge. Laws meant to stop people from renting to illegals have been shot down time and time again. ” discrimination” ya’ know.
    Anything meant to curtail illegals from jobs, housing, public bennies, etc. LIBS have basterdized or neutered to uselessness.

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  18. Bill Tozer Avatar
    Bill Tozer

    Neutered to useless Walt? Exactly! Our catch and release program, our employee verification system, even our no ObamaCare for illegals along with a host of immigration laws have been nipped at the gonads. We are like a toothless old dog, all bark and no bite.
    As far as States trying to deal with these issues on their own, many State Courts have ruled that the illegals are residents of said states and the States must take care of them. Residents as opposed to citizens are the State Courts’ rulings that makes a rather large pile of Rocky Mountain road oysters in denying social services. “Alas, have we no heart?” the liberals ask. Guess to the open border advocates laws were made to be broken. Ends justify the means and all that eunuch stuff.

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  19. Todd Juvinall Avatar

    I see liberals stopping by the Home Depots to get those strapping young men to come and trim their grass on a daily basis. Those dachas need maintenance and the liberal doesn’t want to pay a card carrying real American worker! Yep the liberal hires that fellow for 8 bucks and no taxes, SSN or liability insurance necessary. We pay for the emergency room and schooling, isn’t that the libs complaint against Wal-Mart?) Yep, those lib employers, millions of them, all across America doing their part to help those people’s plight of poverty. I asked Ben Emery that on my blog and of course he can’t answer.
    Regarding the larger businesses hiring? Or however these folks are retained to pick the tomato for the liberals salads. One only needs to see what happens to the employer after hiring ONE person and my oh my, open the door to lawyers, EEOC, OSHA and all the rest of the alphabet police. I don’t think the liberal will want to pay the true cost of the tomato with a fully employed, legal employee, do you? So, like water, money and labor seek their own levels and that is what we have here now. Overbearing laws and regulations translate into dollars on the cost of the tomato and deny a profit to the employer. So rather than charge ten bucks for the tomato, the liberal can purchase it for fifty cents and put it on his Caesar salad and then bloviate about the injustice heaped on the poor illegal immigrant. My my, what a crrock the liberals have foisted on the people.

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  20. Bill Tozer Avatar
    Bill Tozer

    Racism? You bet your lilly white ash. I don’t care where they are from and they are welcome IF they go through a legal orderly process and ain’t criminals or deviates or sexual predators or intent on malice or plan to sit around the barn and eat up our own poor folks’ hay. I don’t even care if they Koreans taking over Tacoma, or Irish flooding the streets of Boston or Polish taking over the West Side of Chicago (joke), or Armenians calling Glendale, Ca their new capital city.. Just as long as they have the government’s permission to dip their toe in Wally World. Well, perhaps we should keep the Irish out….its a racial thing of mine. Crackers and all.
    http://funnyasduck.net/wp-content/uploads/2012/11/funny-pale-irish-girl-sun-bathing-sand-pics.jpg

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  21. Bill Tozer Avatar
    Bill Tozer

    Good truism Mr. Todd. And no deviates allowed. I am an American citizen and I certainly don’t want anymore competition from illegal deviates.

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  22. Brad Croul Avatar
    Brad Croul

    I cannot figure out your lib/Home Depot comment Todd. Are you saying only libs hire illegals?
    A recent wrinkle in the illegal immigrant issue involves of all the women and children (or sometimes just children) that are being sent up from violent narco controlled regions of Central America. These folks I would classify as refugees. We see examples worldwide of refugees being given santuary across borders in areas of relative safety.
    What say you all to allowing these kids refuge on our side of the fence?

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  23. Bonnie McGuire Avatar

    The problem I’ve seen concerning illegal emigrants is that they can easily be abused by unscrupulous people who use and exploit them. Once I hired a hard man who brought a bunch of young men to do the job, and then he left. They worked hard for many hours and he hadn’t returned with their lunches, so I made them lunch. Only one spoke broken English, and said he hadn’t had That kind of food since he’d left Mexico, and we all laughed. Eventually their boss returned and didn’t look happy that they’d been fed. His van had broken down. Anyway they did an excellent job and left. Sometime later I tried to contact the yard man again but couldn’t find him. Something was wrong. Since then I’ve heard stories of abuse concerning illegal workers by those who control them.

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  24. George Rebane Avatar

    BradC 450pm – We see no uniform worldwide policy of refugees being given sanctuary across borders into areas of relative safety, and most certainly we see no such policies with the explicit guarantee of permanent residency let alone citizenship in such relatively safe jurisdictions.
    But assume that you BradC are deemed as the accepted designator of who is or not a refugee. Then America’s policy of accepting refugees across our boarders and providing them some level permanent or temporary succor should still be based on how such actions serve our immediate and longer term national interests. In no case should the rule be ‘If refugee, then welcome to America.’ It may have worked well a century ago, but that kind of thinking TODAY will guarantee disaster. (And evidence of this abounds.)

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  25. Bill Tozer Avatar
    Bill Tozer

    Veering way off course and onto the original subject manner, Dr. Rebane teased us with his closing statement of the addendum “why democracy has not been a practical form of governance for everybody on the planet.”
    In smaller yet just as practical examples, simply examine the communes (hippy communes for Mr. Todd) that sprang up all over the place in Northern California, New Mexico, and New England in the 60’s. “We” were doing to do it different this time. Started off great will an abundance of warm fuzzies. Weekly pow wows to address issues and all that commune stuff. But problems arose as they always do when you have a group of humanoids in one place with differing ideas, ideals, and agendas.
    To address problems of socially accepted behaviorism and perhaps someone not pulling their weight or bright eyed bushy tailed visitors who have overstayed their welcome, committees were set up to address these community issues. Rules were formed after heavy debate around the campfire. The committees were answerable to the people of course, yet they grew more powerful and unyielding. But there was always the leader, the chieftain, the Big Kahuna, the spiritual leader, the acknowledged wonderful enlightened head of the pack who had the hammer. Eventually it became closer to following the rules of a public swimming pool than the original communal ideals for which they formed and gathered.
    The resentful ones went off and started their own commune, vowing to not make the same mistakes and “remembering where they came from” and what their original intents and purposes were for dropping out and tuning in. Others stayed and lived under the Great Leader. Eventually almost all the communal paradises failed or simply disappeared as morning mist in the forest. When the party is over, turn off the lights.
    Point is this. Some see democracy should be one thing, others see it should be in a different light. The ones that are totally positive they have the right reading and vision on how it SHOULD BE become quite resentful and incredulous that others not only disagree, but have the gall not see it their way. The resentful ones become arrogant, spiteful, develop hurt feelings, and then more demanding that others must follow their “right path” to happy destiny. The only thing that stands in their way is the rule of law which governs a Republic. Yes, we have one man one vote, but the rule of law in this nation stands above all opinions, left, right, or indifferent.
    Seldom is something as it should be. It is always as it is. It is not that complicated. Pity the poor frustrated person that goes through life trying to convince people that what they feel is wrong or not good enough. We can argue over ideas and thoughts until the Grim Reaper comes, but you can never argue with one’s feelings. Thus the resentful ones remain in everlasting frustration that simpletons like moi do not see things the way they think I should nor feel about something the way they do.
    If you want a true democracy, just reread Lord of The Flies. Some might call that anarchy, but majority rules. Democracies are fragile and eventually the nail that stands up gets pounded down. Human nature when it takes the form of individuals in charge rarely voluntarily relinquish control back to the unwashed huddled masses or voluntarily step aside. That only happens in democratic republics. And I ain’t taking about The People’s Democratic Republic of Congo or North Korea.

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  26. Bill Tozer Avatar
    Bill Tozer

    Mr. Croul: To answer your last question, we must now wait and see for the wheels of justice to slowly turn. Our opinions don’t really matter at this present time. As of today, here is the Cabinet’s response:
    http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2014/07/06/homeland-sec-johnson-give-no-clear-answers-on-whether-child-illegals-will-be/?intcmp=latestnews

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  27. Walt Avatar

    Speaking of dilemmas, the true believers got a swift kick to the pine cones, with the report out that global cooling is now fact. (-0.5 C in only ten years)
    http://www.forbes.com/sites/jamestaylor/2014/06/25/government-data-show-u-s-in-decade-long-cooling/
    Back to the subject at hand,, these “children” should not be our problem. They should go back to their country of origin. Those counties get plenty of money and aid from us already. Now they can put it to good use.
    And right on time, the open boarder gang recycles ” FOR the CHILDREN!! You heartless bastards!”
    Well isn’t great? If my suspicions are true, some got a free plane ride to Marysville. Just in time for picking season.

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  28. Ben Emery Avatar
    Ben Emery

    06 July 2014 at 10:15 PM
    Bill Tozer
    Breaking my silence at RR to say Kudos to Billy Tozer.
    That was a spot on and very thoughtful comment. The underlying point in of all it the people had their say in the governance they were a citizen of. Other forms of governance the average person doesn’t have a say the are considered subjects to the rules/ laws not participants.
    Isn’t democracy an ugly, inefficient, and overall grand thing? I love it!

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  29. fish Avatar
    fish

    Posted by: Bill Tozer | 06 July 2014 at 10:15 PM
    So in virtually every case democracy devolves into authoritarianism?
    Well described William!
    Posted by: Brad Croul | 06 July 2014 at 04:50 PM
    …and then what Brad?

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  30. Bill Tozer Avatar
    Bill Tozer

    Our Republic has three branches of government (just in case somebody was confused). Just ask any newly sworn in naturalized citizen and they will explain it in more detail.
    The Executive Branch does not have more power that the Legislative Branch, but its hard to tell sometimes by the tone coming out of 1600 Pennsylvania Ave. Just when we need a stop sign on abuse of power by Federal, State and local jurisdictions, the Supreme Court steps in to be the adult libertarian in the room. Who would have thought? Is it true?
    I got my first inkling when they voted 9-zip that a Christian school can fire an teacher who succumbed to lustful ways, committed fornication, and done got herself heavy with child. Thought they would side with the Labor Board and labor laws and the Solicitor General, but noooo.
    Come to think of it, there is a former Solicitor General who never ever won one single case before The Court as the government’s lawyer and get this…..drumroll please…she now wears a Supreme Court black robe. She looks better in black. Hope she knows the Constitution by now. Probably not so I will continue holding my breath. But it is good seeing the Supreme Court reading the black on the page and not just the white or filling in the white on the page with their own words. Tea Party Patriots and the Libertarian Supreme Court makes quite a pair.
    http://watchdog.org/157880/supreme-court-takes-stand-limited-government/
    Maybe our democracy will survive….for now.

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  31. fish Avatar
    fish

    Wonder if why this is why Jim Bridenstine can’t get on to Fort Sill to see what’s going on in Baracks Barracks?
    http://www.foxnews.com/opinion/2014/07/07/immigration-crisis-tuberculosis-spreading-at-camps/

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  32. Russ Steele Avatar

    I wonder if they are fumigating the planes that are hauling scabies infected new arrivals to cities around the states. Scabies are flees that bore into human skin and lay their eggs. It is highly contagious. Just think about all those flees waiting in those airline seats for the next host to arrive. Take note of the airlines hauling these new comers, and avoid them like flees escaping from a dogs back.

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  33. fish Avatar
    fish

    Warehousing tired, sick people from semi-tropical regions in close association is a recipe for disaster.
    I still think that this is what will cause the whole sordid affair to implode! Empty headed proggie/SWPL soccer moms start seeing little Tiffany and Justin come down with TB and Scabies and I imaging that that will be about it!
    The Affirmative Action Figure has just about spent all his good will with a compliant lapdog media. Even they will balk if something really bad escapes from those processing facilities.

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  34. stevenfrisch Avatar
    stevenfrisch

    Posted by: Russ Steele | 07 July 2014 at 01:19 PM
    I mean really WTF?

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  35. Russ Steele Avatar

    Steven Frisch@01:49Pm
    From National Review on Line:
    Approximately 40 immigrants in detention at one center in the U.S. Customs and Border Protection’s San Diego Sector have active cases of scabies, a source tells National Review Online, and they could soon be spreading it to the general public.
    A Border Patrol agent who helped process illegal immigrants at the Chula Vista Border Patrol Station on Sunday tells NRO that the 40 immigrants infected with scabies arrived on a plane that landed July 4, carrying about 140 immigrants total.
    The agent says the people at FEMA who are responsible for doing the medical screening of the immigrants before they’re transferred to California should be fired. “Management’s more concerned about processing and getting rid of them as quickly as possible than looking at decontamination,” the agent says. “And [the released illegal immigrants] go out in the community, get on the public transportation, go where they need to go, and it could result in another infestation of scabies being spread everywhere.”
    But the San Diego Sector was already dealing with a scabies outbreak when the latest batch of illegal immigrants arrived. Two agents at the Brown Field Border Patrol Station developed rashes on July 3 after processing illegal immigrants from Texas, according to a letter obtained by NRO written by Ron Zermeno, health and safety director of National Border Patrol Council Local 1613. Zermeno confirmed the veracity of the letter and the facts contained therein to NRO.
    The immigrants that spread the disease to the agents arrived on the buses that were blocked from entering the Murrieta station last week by local residents, he said.
    The first agent to contract the illness told Zermeno he was asked to do the medical screening of all detainees before releasing them to Immigration and Customs Enforcement officials. The agent thought he got sick while observing several people with open sores, Zermeno wrote in the letter to Paul Beeson, the San Diego Sector’s chief patrol agent.
    “[The Border Patrol agent] is not a trained medical professional but did the best he could do,” Zermeno wrote. “He was not told about any precautions to take such as decontamination of himself and uniform.” As a result, the agent who became ill exposed the agent he carpools with to scabies, and put his wife and two small children at risk of contracting scabies too, the letter explained. Scabies is an infestation by a mite that burrows into the upper layer of the skin where it lives and lays its eggs, according to the CDC. My emphasis
    In the letter, Zermeno notes that Beeson had said FEMA personnel had already conducted health screening on the individuals transferred to California, but that EMT agents in California discovered “several” people with active cases of scabies and other illnesses. “We do not know exactly which detainee was infected and processed at Brown Field that resulted in the agent contracting this disease,” Zermeno wrote. “We suspect that they could have been already transferred to ICE custody and may have already been released in the surrounding communities.”
    The letter reported that other Border Patrol stations in the San Diego sector were not properly disposing of contaminated bedding. At the Chula Vista station, agents left contaminated bedding in open paper bags with signs taped to them that said, “SCABIES!!!!!! Do NOT Move until after 7/5/14 1600.” Zermeno wrote that the sheets should instead be placed in sealed plastic bags, and recommended that disposable blankets be used instead of wool ones. He asked that agents involved in the transportation, processing, and medical screening receive disposable overalls and be provided a facility where agents can decontaminate before departing the processing area.
    “Border Patrol management is aware of the scabies outbreak but continue[s] to ignore recommendations,” Zermeno wrote. “I request that your staff not down play this incident and call it an isolated incident.”
    U.S. Customs and Border Protection Commissioner Gil Kerlikowske told ABC News the Central Americans surging across the border are family members who do not present a threat. “These are family members, these are not gang members, these are not dangerous individuals,” Kerlikowske told ABC. “I think that we all need to work through this problem together as Americans.”
    Border Patrol officials at the Chula Vista and Brown Field Stations were not immediately available for comment.

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  36. Bill Tozer Avatar
    Bill Tozer

    Mystery solved Mr. Fish!
    According to the department, if they have or have been exposed to a communicable disease, they are put in a facility “that has the capacity to quarantine.”
    Of course they did not want a federal elected employee such as the good congressperson poking around a federal facility in his own backyard. It was for his own safety by jove.
    The ICE employee union is telling its Border Patrol employes to take two sets of clothes to work. One to wear when near our “opportunity children” and to be put in a secured plastic bag before leaving work and the other set of clothes/uniforms to drive home in or to wear while driving straight to the laundry mat to wash the little buggers inside the plastic bag.
    Darn, more washing of clothes in this drought? Thought we should be conserving water.
    Maybe Mr. Walt was right about the Southwest Airlines plane landing at Beale. Bet the pilots think it is just a bad cough or a nasty case of poison oak the passengers got. Didn’t even stay long enough to fumigate the plane.
    Gives new meaning to Southwest’s commercials “Got to get away?” Or that other airline’s slogan “Fly United”. Gives new slant to the name Jet Blue as well. And I haven’t even touched the TB issue yet. Send them opportunity kids to France and knock some of the wind out of those arrogant froggy’s sails.. Ok, I can wish upon a star can’t I?

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  37. George Rebane Avatar

    The immigration thread has gone far afield from the topic of this post. I have provided a more directly related venue in the next post, ‘Immigration Reform and National Interest’
    http://rebaneruminations.typepad.com/rebanes_ruminations/2014/07/immigration-reform-and-national-interest.html
    Please continue the conversation there. Thank you.

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