Rebane's Ruminations
April 2014
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George Rebane

When tyrannies make the laws, all opponents of tyranny are then seen and treated as criminals.

The ownership and control of our public lands is a mess, both legally and constitutionally.  Save for military bases (an arguably constitutional provision), why does the federal government claim ownership – laughably in the name of ‘the public’ – of large parts of the country?  Save for preserving certain particularly scenic locales as public parks, why do states need to own land?  (I find federal ownership of land for parks and recreation to also be constitutionally unfounded.)  Yes, there are reasons for state governments to share control of ‘infrastructure land’ that contain navigable rivers, flood control dams and levees, and water reservoirs, but owning thousands of square miles of open range, mountains, and forests, the case for such has no reasonable constitutional basis.

PublicLands
(Recall the definition of ownership, you ‘own’ something only to the extent that you can dispose of it as you wish.)

Due to the Bundy Ranch gathering of citizens concerned with the jackboot behavior of various fed and state agencies, the BLM has decided to withdraw in order to regroup and replan their next assault, because they apparently expected none of what happened – e.g. consider the set aside of a little ‘First Amendment Rights’ pen for the few people who might show up to quietly protest as permitted by their betters.

I was heartened that this event finally demonstrated what can happen when citizens ‘just say NO!’, both in their courage to unambiguously state that a limit to overreach had been broached, and also by the rapid gathering of supportive citizens who were willing to take an unknown risk against militarized government units armed with machine guns, snipers, and helicopters.  I hope that this might set an inspiring example for locals all over the country to resist the next diktat that comes down from above to perfunctorily limit more of what/how/when people can do, say, wear, eat, build, travel, stay, read, watch, learn, work, recreate, worship, display, spend, receive, join, … .  If the Bundy standoff can serve as the starting point for Americans everywhere to change their recently inbred docile acceptance to one of critical examination and consideration before compliance or its rejection, then this will have been a productive milestone on the road back to liberty.  (Nevada County electeds please take note.)

As to resolving the grazing on public lands matter, I expect that the feds will be back after an appropriate media propaganda blitz that will demonize the Bundys and others who may have similar thoughts.  Here we can hope that this will raise the country’s awareness of the public lands issue, and after appropriate debate, lead to a resolution that gets the feds out of the land management business and, perhaps, shuts down a tax consuming bureaucracy.  Important and exciting times ahead.

[19apr14 update]  Contrary to the somewhat bombastic interpretations of our progressive constitutional pundits, the legitimacy of federal retention of vast tracts of western lands is being called to question by lawmakers in western states (more here).  The historical legality of such federal retention which I and a number of other observers have criticized is now coming to the attention of some of our conservative political leadership.  The bottom line is still that the feds have usurped the states’ intended rights to own and control (i.e. dispose of as they will) public lands within their borders, and a progressive judicial system has made mockery of the clear original intent of the Constitution in this matter.

Perhaps now a reasoned debate can start on the most appropriate process through which we can erase the overwhelming amount of the western red areas in the above map.  To be sure, the big government collectivists will fight tooth and nail to retain as much central control of domestic policies in Washington as possible.  America’s historical standards of liberty and self-determination demand the devolution of such central controls to the states and counties where the people live.

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318 responses to “A Takeaway from Bundy Ranch (updated 19apr14)”

  1. fish Avatar
    fish

    Morning Michael,
    Two things….from your mention of free speech zones as being started by Bush the Lesser and continued by the Messiah… I take this as an endorsement of the practice by you? Second….I appreciate biting satire from any political perspective….I’m still waiting….was there another panel, I mean one with some element of humor, that was to accompany that comic?

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  2. Michael Anderson Avatar
    Michael Anderson

    Mornin’ Fish,
    Nope, the one panel was it. I like my comedy dry, but your mileage may vary.
    And nope #2, I always felt the free speech zones to be bad manners on the part of who built ’em from the moment they were introduced. But I will note that I didn’t hear a peep from the Tea Party’s ancestors during that time.
    Michael A.

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  3. fish Avatar
    fish

    But I will note that I didn’t hear a peep from the Tea Party’s ancestors during that time.
    Who would they be?

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  4. fish Avatar
    fish

    Oh my…you guys are so much braver in your own sandbox!
    Yeah, don’t want to mess up that government pension now do you, Fish?
    I shant be collecting a government pension Stevie.
    Holding up Cliven Bundy, who does not recognize the legal rights of the United States Government, as a hero, while he stands in front of an American flag every day on Fox News might appear hypocritical?
    I’m not holding Mr. Bundy as a hero, and if you go back and re-read the pertinent posts in the thread you will see where I conceded your point. The Federal government is under no obligation it would seem to allow Mr. Bundy to continue grazing his livestock on that land. My complaints had to do with the Feds potentially depriving Mr. Bundy of existing access and grazing tights established prior to the establishment of the BLM and their regulatory apparatus. While I conceeded to your argument I’m not sure that the issue is settled in law based on some of Gregs subsequent posts.
    Here is our last substantive exchange on l’affaire Bundy
    Posted by: fish | 16 April 2014 at 08:53 AM
    He is the last rancher working leases in a portion of the Gold Buttes [Google map it in SE Nevada between the east edge of Lake Meade and the Utah border south of Mesquite}. I actually love that eastern Nevada area, and Pioche just north of Mesquite is one of my favorite western towns.
    There are ranchers working BLM leases all around Bundy to the north and east. There are thousand of BLM grazing leases in Nevada, and 18,000 BLM grazing leases to more than 16,000 ranchers on more than 155 million acres of BLM land in the west. That is about 65% of all BLM lands that have grazing leases on them.
    Hope that helps put Mr. Bundy in a little perspective.

    And my concession:
    I am fond of SE Nevada as well…..less south and more east though. Okay Stevie I got nothing else….well done!
    Still wish the morons on both sides could work this shit out reasonably.

    It would seem that in addition to reading comprehension issues you’re shitty in victory as well! More’s the pity!
    Don’t want to mess with that government pension while cheering for militia members to rally to Bundy’s cause on the anniversary of the Oklahoma City bombing, do you?
    No pension Stevie as mentioned above. You’ll need to show me where I cheered for the “militia members to rally to Bundy’s cause on the anniversary of the Oklahoma City bombing” (A simple cut and paste will be sufficient Steve…I’ll recognize my own opinions). I do love how your reasoning skills desert you when you really get worked up…..it took me 8 cans of PBR to get that worked up at Ben last summer!
    Don’t want to mess up that government pension while your buddies are excoriating the ‘evil unions’ for getting workers pensions; or [erroneously] railing against government workers getting paid more than the private sector; or claiming to be wary of government power while working for the national security arm of the state?
    Third time Stevie…..there will be no pension…..I have a 401(k) just like the rest of you noble proletarians. No problems with unions either. It would seem though that there is an issue where it comes to government unions…..in that, proglodyte hero FDR and I are in agreement. And as to, “or claiming to be wary of government power while working for the national security arm of the state. where and when the fuck did you think I started to question the behavior of the benevolent state? Fifteen years ago I was a mindless statist suckup like you…well not like you because you’re not stupid…more like JoKe who be always be relied upon to cheerlead for government regardless of its misdeeds. You are just as selective in your outrage as those you with whom you disagree.
    Please recall that it was Yankee Doodle Mikey who got me to reveal my employment status when he started the….”You guys aren’t patriotic enough…maybe I should make a few calls” dick measuring contest last summer.
    What hypocrites.
    So says the man who lauds the government at every turn yet apparently didn’t feel it important enough to pay all the taxes required of him by the state. Say what you want about my hypocrisy I’ve never not paid my taxes. I shouldn’t be surprised by your fervor Stevie….there is never a greater zealot than he who is redeemed by Big Brother. Did you self report in a fit of remorse at your disloyalty or did you get popped in an audit because you were sloppy about fudging the numbers?
    I’ve admitted my hypocrisy regarding the employment choices I’ve made get back to me when you can as well Winston.
    I post this directly at Associate Bobs site but he censors those opinions that he doesn’t care for…yeah I know…funny for a “newsman”…the casual indifference to free speech.

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  5. Todd Juvinall Avatar
    Todd Juvinall

    fish, you have exposed the hypocrite Steve Frisch again. I give him nary a thought regarding his allegations against conservatives for anything. He in fact was a tax scofflaw and the fact he would call others names is too funny. Nothing worse than a business owner who does not send in the employee tax payments. Is there anything worse? And all this is in the County Records as puvlic records. Nothing personal now, just the plain old everyday facts. He will cry that it is personal though. Whiny libs are pathetic.
    Regarding the “free speech” zones. Yes they were used when Bush was speaking somewhere or passing through as a protection of him by the Secret Service. Here is a snippet from Wiki
    “Free speech zones were commonly used by President George W. Bush after the September 11 attacks and through the 2004 election. Free speech zones were set up by the Secret Service, who scouted locations where the U.S. president was scheduled to speak, or pass through. ”
    Otherwise it appears all the other uses were for democrats. Or in democrat cities or functions. I would suggest the “free speech” zones put in place by BLM were very different than the ones the Secret Service put in place to protect Bush. But, as usual, the libs like Frisch and MichaelA get a tiny bit of truth, twist it, and expand it to man made global warming!

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  6. RL Crabb Avatar

    Fish…What kind of fish? Trout? Cod? Perch? Flounder? I’m still wondering who “Windy” is. Is it the person the Association sang about all those years ago, or just another tilting windmill?

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  7. Gregory Avatar
    Gregory

    From the wiki, it was Democrats who started the free speech zone concept, in Atlanta under Mayor Andrew Young, protecting the ’88 Democratic National Convention… I guess they didn’t want a repeat of the likes of Sister Boom Boom at the Frisco convention four years earlier. That there would actually be free speech zones at universities, especially public ones, is particularly troubling.

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  8. Gregory Avatar
    Gregory

    “”What hypocrites”
    So says the man who lauds the government at every turn yet apparently didn’t feel it important enough to pay all the taxes required of him by the state.” -phish
    IIRC, it was worse than that… he took the money withheld from employees and didn’t forward that to the guvmint. That can be considered theft.
    From the coverage to date it appears Bundy stopped sending money to the BLM when they told him he had to cut his herd by 90%. A “F U” moment, and something like 80% of the million dollars he is said to be on the hook for are penalties for not cutting his herd by 90% and later 100%, like the other 52 ranches in the area.
    While Bundy’s legal expertise is akin to those tax consultants who were giving seminars about how one can ignore the income tax because it wasn’t legal (I think many of them have been paroled by now), he was being screwed by the BLM and it looks like that tide has stopped rising. Sagebrush Rebellion, part deux, anyone?
    I’d bet Sen. Reid will keep the BLM from moving against Bundy until after the November elections.

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  9. Walt Avatar

    I don’t know Gregory,,,, Harry “Custer” Reid only has till Nov. to do his dirty work. After that he’s going to lose his “LIB” given power. ( Can Steve or Mike say,,, “irrelevant”?) He will do his best to get the “civil war” started. It’s a matter of principal now. ( How dare anyone stand up to government will.)
    This is what LIBS feared most when they went after 2ND Amendment rights.
    Gotta get those AR style weapons out of the hands of people who know how to properly use them! ( Never mind that shootings and killing involving the “evil” black gun are the lowest in all the categories of crime stats)
    Reality be damned.
    Yes, the founding Fathers saw this day when government believes they are “all powerful”. Praise the Lord and the 2ND Amen.
    Someone needs to go to our favorite overpass and paint a 3×3 foot box in yellow, and mark it ” Approved free speech zone”. Any bets on just who would bitch first?
    OHH!!! Word has it the “burning man” clan is wanting to have their own little “gathering” across from the Bundy property.”No rules” is the billing… ( Really? On endangered critter land??)
    OH… PLEASE do it!! Half of Nevada City would attend, and only half of those will ever find their way back. Yes,,, there will be arrests from the Lefty camp. Illegal drugs are still illegal in Nev.
    Obviously the LIBS are looking to start a ruckus with the “other side”,, and that’s really the main intent.( in my opinion)
    A bunch of drugged up “hipsters” wanting to “mix it up” with “cowboys”.
    Nope,, that won’t end well for the hipsters. We have seen just what they call “peaceful”. Remember that BS from the OWS idiots?
    I didn’t see anyone at the Bundy standoff wearing scarfs to cover their identities, like the OWS trouble makers did.
    I wish them luck in obtaining a permit for that 30 day “party”.
    The Bundy supporters are camped on private property.
    When our resident Lefties get done gutter sniping, what is too much government intrusion in their book? They never seem to have an answer to that.

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  10. stevenfrisch Avatar
    stevenfrisch

    Here you go you great scholars of the Constitution, your American hero:
    “I want to tell you one more thing I know about the Negro,” he said. Mr. Bundy recalled driving past a public-housing project in North Las Vegas, “and in front of that government house the door was usually open and the older people and the kids — and there is always at least a half a dozen people sitting on the porch — they didn’t have nothing to do. They didn’t have nothing for their kids to do. They didn’t have nothing for their young girls to do.
    “And because they were basically on government subsidy, so now what do they do?” he asked. “They abort their young children, they put their young men in jail, because they never learned how to pick cotton. And I’ve often wondered, are they better off as slaves, picking cotton and having a family life and doing things, or are they better off under government subsidy? They didn’t get no more freedom. They got less freedom.”
    —-Cliven Bundy
    I hear he is giving marriage advice next Todd, you better rush down and listen!
    I love how he does not recognize the United States as even existing but stands in front of the American flag every time he pontificates about what it really means to be an American.
    I think he should get his own freaking flag. Oh that’s right, he waves the Gadsen Flag!

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  11. fish Avatar
    fish

    Here you go you great scholars of the Constitution, your American hero:
    “I want to tell you one more thing I know about the Negro,” he said. Mr. Bundy recalled driving past a public-housing project in North Las Vegas, “and in front of that government house the door was usually open and the older people and the kids — and there is always at least a half a dozen people sitting on the porch — they didn’t have nothing to do. They didn’t have nothing for their kids to do. They didn’t have nothing for their young girls to do.
    “And because they were basically on government subsidy, so now what do they do?” he asked. “They abort their young children, they put their young men in jail, because they never learned how to pick cotton. And I’ve often wondered, are they better off as slaves, picking cotton and having a family life and doing things, or are they better off under government subsidy? They didn’t get no more freedom. They got less freedom.”
    —-Cliven Bundy

    You are, at least reliable partisan putz!
    Lets just tart up that language and suddenly it’s a plea for more spending on the urban underclass.
    “I want to tell you one more thing I know about the inner city undeclass,” he said. Mr. Frisch recalled driving past a public-housing project in North Las Vegas, “and in front of that government house the door was usually open and the older people and the kids — and there is always at least a half a dozen people sitting on the porch…. they didn’t have anything to do. There are few opportunities for recreation or community gathering. They didn’t have anything for their kids to do. They didn’t have anything for their young girls to do. This lack of resources leads to continuing the cycle of poverty and despair that we city in our urban cores
    “And because they were basically on government subsidy, so now what do they do?” They can’t accept paid work because as soon as they have some income they are removed from public assistance. “They abort their young children, they put their young men in jail, because they never learned any job skills. And I’ve often wondered, are they significantly different than slaves, picking cotton and having a family life and doing things, or are they better off under government subsidy? They didn’t get more freedom. They got less freedom.”

    (Edited for greater Lefty palatability)
    So how is what Mr. Bundy stated any substatively different than any number of pleas for “more resources” and “improved funding mechanisms” that we here routinely from TEAM DEMOCRAT.
    Mr. Bundy is awkward in his selection of language to be sure, but he has identified the problem accurately. Are you saying Stevie that he is in endorsement of these conditions? It sounds as though he deplores them.

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  12. fish Avatar
    fish

    ….here routinely
    …hear routinely….
    Shit!

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  13. stevenfrisch Avatar
    stevenfrisch

    The difference is Mr. Fish that if it were stated that way almost everyone here would roundly oppose it as a welfare…which is exactly what Mr. Bundy is getting by continuing to graze on public land without paying his grazing fees.
    And really, ‘they never learned to pick cotton’…..”are they better off as slaves..” You really going to hitch yourself to that cracker ass racist wagon? I guess so.
    I note no one answered my question about creating a competitive advantage for Mr. Bundy by not enforcing contracts equitably….a libertarian shibboleth.
    I also note that although you were quick to say you will not be collecting a direct government pension, you did not answer Mr. Anderson’s question regarding the source of your income or the nature of the contracts or employment that support you. As an anonymous poster who is unable to provide that information we must assume YOUR original statement was true…you are a government supported employee of some sort who feels his identity must be protected to protect his pension…

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  14. Walt Avatar

    Finally…A Bundy story printed in our local rag. And a LIB syndication
    no less!! I’m pretty sure some locals have submitted “their two cents”,
    but have yet to be printed.( if at all)
    With all the typical “name calling” just how in hell did this pass the censor test? If it had come from a Conservative, more likely than not it would have been rejected for being “insensitive”.
    As for Steve’s,, ” LOOK!! That Bundy is a RASISIT!!!” Ya,,, Every LIB in the nation has jumped on that bandwagon. ( since that all they want to see)
    Make a simple analogy and it get’s twisted to fit ones needs.

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  15. Gregory Avatar
    Gregory

    Frisch, the information you promised is still not received. You promised contact information for your board months ago; should I just go ahead and contact only the members I’ve independently found addresses for?
    Back to the ranch, Bundy doesn’t have a million dollar bill for grazing, he has a million dollar fine for not going out of the cattle business like the 52 other ranches in Clark County after the rangeland he’d been using for grazing, long enough to have rights to graze, was slated to be tortoise habitat despite really not hosting a significant number of tortoises yet. If I’ve got it straight (it’s been hard to separate the wheat from the chaff) the prime tortoise habitat is in an adjoining area slated for solar development.
    BTW the three large solar electric generators south of Vegas (they’re across the border in California’s Mojave, just south of Jean, NV) looked to be in full operation yesterday. Too bad Frisch can’t see them from his house, I’m sure he’d appreciate the blight on the landscape for what it is. California made sure they got built where only Nevadans would have to look at them.

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  16. Gregory Avatar
    Gregory

    “I love how he does not recognize the United States as even existing”
    While he has ‘interesting’ ideas, not recognizing the existence of the USA does not seem to be one of them. Another Frisch lie?
    “I note no one answered my question about creating a competitive advantage for Mr. Bundy by not enforcing contracts equitably….a libertarian shibboleth.” -Frisch
    Bullshit isn’t just on Clark County rangeland. I wrote the following in response:
    “Bundy offered to pay usual and customary grazing fees to Clark County after the break, but worked within the BLM system until two decades ago when his ranch was being pressured to sell their grazing rights and to reduce the size of their herd by 90%. The other 52 ranchers getting the same treatment went out of business, a real competitive disadvantage.”
    The usual and customary grazing fees, paid by all those non-Clark County ranchers, would have amounted to closer to $200k, which Bundy offered to pay Clark County.

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  17. fish Avatar
    fish

    You’re really not very good at this Stevie. You have your moments but you really aren’t.
    The difference is Mr. Fish that if it were stated that way almost everyone here would roundly oppose it as a welfare…which is exactly what Mr. Bundy is getting by continuing to graze on public land without paying his grazing fees.
    I conceded that Mr. Bundy should have paid his fees on two other occasions following your arguments. What does that have to do with your attempt at tarring Mr. Bundy as a racist above?
    And really, ‘they never learned to pick cotton’…..”are they better off as slaves..” You really going to hitch yourself to that cracker ass racist wagon? I guess so.
    You’ll need to do better Stevie. My response was to demonstrate that Mr. Bundys language, although inelegant is not so different than language used routinely to both lament the conditions and plead for improvement in the lives of inner city African Americans. Reading comprehension really isn’t your thing when there might be the slightest opportunity for you to vent a little lefty promethean rage.
    I note no one answered my question about creating a competitive advantage for Mr. Bundy by not enforcing contracts equitably….a libertarian shibboleth.
    How many times do you need me to concede the argument Stevie? Not getting enough positive reinforcement at home?
    I also note that although you were quick to say you will not be collecting a direct government pension, you did not answer Mr. Anderson’s question regarding the source of your income or the nature of the contracts or employment that support you. As an anonymous poster who is unable to provide that information we must assume YOUR original statement was true…you are a government supported employee of some sort who feels his identity must be protected to protect his pension…
    Admitted to long ago with no specifics because I know how you nitwits are…I wouldn’t put it past any of you (especially pets.com boy) to fuck things up for me at a time not of my choosing. I do note you routinely whine about Greg “going to the SBC board” about things, and charges and counter charges tossed back and forth freely. Sorry Stevie you’ll just need to wait. If me not telling you the exact funding source for my employment is a DQ in your eyes….well OK….life will go on nicely for me Grant Money Boy!

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  18. Brad Croul Avatar
    Brad Croul

    The problem with choosing sides based on who your friend’s enemies are is that when they implode, like Bundy seems to be- the more he keeps talking, you have to ask yourself if you made the right decision in supporting his position. Looks like a media circus out at the ranch with all the “minutemen” in the latest (woodland?) camo fashions, walking around all puffed up with their hoglegs strapped to there sides. What a hoot!
    I am not sure why, all of sudden, Bundy is the poster child for the evils of big government interference. He has some crackpot ideas about things.
    But, in some ways it reminds me of how people view Edward Snowden as a hero, and some view him as a traitor.
    The Shoshone have been hassled by the Fed over the same kind of thing for years. Unlike the Bundy case, the grazing land taken was actually the indian’s land.
    The Fed was paying the Shoshone in cattle for easements and the use of their lands based on a 1983 treaty, now the Fed wants to take away their grazing rights, along with all the other lands they have already taken. Why, because they can since they have the bigger guns.
    That’s politics.
    UNITED STATES TREATY WITH THE WESTERN SHOSHONI, 1863
    October 1, 1863, 18 Statutes at Large 689
    Treaty of Peace and Friendship made at Ruby Valley, in the Territory of Nevada, this first day of October, A.D. one thousand eight hundred and sixty-three, between the United States of America, represented by the undersigned commissioners, and the Western Bands of the Shoshonee Nation of Indians, represented by their Chiefs and Principal Men and warriors, as follows:
    ARTICLE 1
    Peace and friendship shall be hereafter established and maintained between the Western Bands of the Shoshonee nation and the people and government of the United States; and the said bands stipulate and agree that hostilities and all depredations upon the emigrant trains,the mail and telegraph lines, and upon the citizens of the United States within their country, shall cease.
    ARTICLE 2
    The several routes of travel through the Shoshonee country, now or hereafter used by white men, shall be forever free, and unobstructed by the said bands, for the use of the government of the United States, and of all emigrants and travellers under its authority and protection,without molestation or injury from them. And if depredations are at any time committed by bad men of their nation, the offenders shall be immediately taken and delivered up to the proper officers of the United States, to be punished as their offences shall deserve; and the safety of all travellers passing peaceably over either of said routes is hereby guarantied by said bands.
    Military posts may be established by the President of the United states along said routes or elsewhere in their country; and station houses may be erected and occupied at such points as may be necessary for the comfort and convenience of travellers or for mail or telegraph companies.
    ARTICLE 3
    The telegraph and overland stage lines having been established and operated by companies under the authority of the United States through a part of the Shoshonee country, it is expressly agreed that the same may be continued without hindrance, molestation, or injury from the people of said bands, and that their property and the lives and property of passengers in the stages and of the employes of the respective companies, shall be protected by them. And further, it being understood that provision has been made by the government of the United States for the construction of a railway from the plains west to the Pacific ocean, it is stipulated by the said bands that the said railway or its branches may be located, constructed, and operated, and without molestation from them, through any portion of country claimed or occupied by them.
    ARTICLE 4
    It is further agreed by the parties hereto, that the shoshonee country may be explored and prospected for gold and silver, or other minerals; and when mines are discovered, they may be worked, and mining and agricultural settlements formed, and ranches established whenever they may be required. Mills may be erected and timber taken for their use, as also for building and other purposes in any part of the country claimed by said bands.
    ARTICLE 5
    It is understood that the boundaries of the country claimed and occupied by said bands are defined and described by them as follows:
    On the north by Wong-goga-da Mountains and Shoshonee River Valley;on the west by Su-non-to-yah Mountains or Smith Creek Mountains; on the south by Wi-co-bah and the Colorado Desert; on the east by Po-ho-no-be Valley or Steptoe Valley and Great Salt Lake Valley.
    ARTICLE 6
    The said bands agree that whenever the President of the United states shall deem it expedient for them to abandon the roaming life,which, they now lead, and become herdsmen or agriculturalists, he is hereby authorized to make such reservations for their use as he may deem necessary within the country above described; and they do also hereby agree to remove their camps to such reservations as he may indicate, and to reside and remain therein.
    ARTICLE 7
    The United States, being aware of the inconvenience resulting to the Indians in consequence of the driving away and destruction of game along the routes travelled by white men, and by the formation of agricultural and mining settlements, are willing to fairly compensate them for the same; therefore, and in consideration of the preceding stipulations, and of their faithful observance by the said bands, the United States promise and agree to pay to the said bands of the Shoshonee nation parties hereto, annually for the term of twenty years,the sum of five thousand dollars in such articles, including cattle for herding or other purposes, as the President of the United States shall deem suitable for their wants and condition, either as hunters or herdsmen. And the said bands hereby acknowledge the reception of the said stipulated annuities as a full compensation and equivalent for the loss of game and the rights and privileges hereby conceded.
    ARTICLE 8
    The said bands hereby acknowledge that they have received from said commissioners provisions and clothing amounting to five thousand dollars as presents at the conclusion of this treaty.
    Done at Ruby Valley the day and year above written.
    James W. Nye
    James Duane Doty
    Te-moak, his x mark
    Mo-ho-a
    Kirk-weedgwa, his x mark
    To-nag, his x mark
    To-so-wee-so-op, his x mark
    Sow-er-e-gah, his x mark
    Po-on-go-sah, his x mark
    Par-a-woat-ze, his x mark
    Ga-ha-dier, his x mark
    Ko-ro-kout-ze, his x mark
    Pon-ge-mah, his x mark
    Buck, his x mark
    Witnesses:
    J. B. Moore, lieutenant-colonel Third Infantry California Volunteers
    Jacob T. Lockhart, Indian agent Nevada Territory
    Henry Butterfield, interpreter
    Ratified June 26, 1866
    Proclaimed Oct. 21, 1869

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  19. Gregory Avatar
    Gregory

    “The Shoshone have been hassled by the Fed over the same kind of thing for years. Unlike the Bundy case, the grazing land taken was actually the indian’s land.”
    You may have noticed a post of mine over at Crabb’s mentioning a Shoshone claim. A couple more predating your Ruby Valley Treaty note here are stuck in Crabbman limbo, including links to a couple of Ruby Valley Treaty pieces.
    BTW the Ruby Valley, is stunning, as are the Ruby mountains; a stepson of mine lived there for a time, working for a chief in their law practice.

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  20. Paul Emery Avatar

    So Bundy’s idea of freedom is catching on from unlikely supporters. Here’s an example
    Some of the organizers of the annual Burning Man festival are planning an event aimed at mocking the claims of a Nevada rancher who refuses to pay government-mandated fees for using federal lands.
    “For years, we paid permitting fees to hold Burning Man on the beautiful Playa in Northern Nevada,” said the event’s organizers on a Facebook page. “But now, Cliven Bundy has shown us a NEW WAY! ABSOLUTE FREEDOM! Bundy has declared the entire area surrounding Bundy Ranch as a TOTALLY RULES-FREE ZONE! ANYTHING GOES! WOO-HOO!!!”
    Progressive activist Sean Shealy said Bundyfest, which will be held across the road from Bundy’s ranch in Bunkerville, Nevada, for one month starting on Sept. 5.
    That’s just after the conclusion of the Burning Man festival, and Shealy hopes attendees will travel south to see 240 bands perform 24 hours a day near the rancher’s home.
    “Some people have asked me, where will we camp, where will we park?” Shealy said. “Anywhere, really. It’s f*cking anarchy.”
    The Facebook page for the event promises no permits will be required, full nudity will be permitted, and the atmosphere will be gay-friendly.
    However, Shealy warned, no bathroom facilities would be provided.
    “You’re free to let it all hang out right there, just like Bundy’s cattle, right there in the Virgin River, if you want to,” Shealy said.
    Organizers also plan a “penis erection contest,” where participants will be awarded prizes for the largest phallic structure built in the desert.
    Shealy said organizers expect about 50,000 people to show up in the desert near Bundy’s home.
    http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2014/04/22/burning-man-organizer-plans-anything-goes-bundyfest-to-mock-scofflaw-rancher/

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  21. Paul Emery Avatar

    George
    Your Sheriff Mack is really going off the deep end on this one supporting that racist asshole.
    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/04/15/richard-mack-_n_5154606.html
    “Former Arizona sheriff Richard Mack says he would have put women in the line of fire if the federal officers had started shooting during a standoff with Nevada rancher Cliven Bundy.
    A former Arizona sheriff who supported a Nevada rancher in his land dispute with the federal government says he would have put women in the frontline if officers started shooting.
    An armed standoff between Cliven Bundy and the U.S. Bureau of Land Management over grazing rights ended with the federal government abandoning its plans on Saturday to impound Bundy’s cows that roamed public lands.
    Richard Mack, a Bundy supporter who served as sheriff of Graham County, Ariz., between 1988-1997, told Fox News on Monday about a planned strategy if “rogue federal agents” had opened fire.
    “We were actually strategizing to put all the women up at the front,” he said on Fox News, according to TheBlaze.com. “If they are going to start shooting, it’s going to be women that are going to be televised all across the world getting shot by these rogue federal officers.”

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  22. fish Avatar
    fish

    Richard Mack, a Bundy supporter who served as sheriff of Graham County, Ariz., between 1988-1997, told Fox News on Monday about a planned strategy if “rogue federal agents” had opened fire.
    “We were actually strategizing to put all the women up at the front,” he said on Fox News, according to TheBlaze.com. “If they are going to start shooting, it’s going to be women that are going to be televised all across the world getting shot by these rogue federal officers.”

    It’s a brilliant move Paul! As I mentioned up thread…it’s worthy of a Chicago political activist.

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  23. Paul Emery Avatar

    Help me with this Fish
    What is the purpose of Macks “brilliant move”?

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  24. stevenfrisch Avatar
    stevenfrisch

    Yep, brilliant move. After all it is just political theater until someone gets shot in the head.

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  25. Gregory Avatar
    Gregory

    ““But now, Cliven Bundy has shown us a NEW WAY! ABSOLUTE FREEDOM! Bundy has declared the entire area surrounding Bundy Ranch as a TOTALLY RULES-FREE ZONE! ANYTHING GOES! WOO-HOO!!!”
    It really is amazing how oblivious the left can be to what the right is saying.

    Like

  26. fish Avatar
    fish

    Yep, brilliant move. After all it is just political theater until someone gets shot in the head.
    Stevie….I’m surprised at you…..way, way up thread you were praising the Feds for de-escalating the situation. Putting women up front does just that. I’m sure the notoriously heavy handed feds would be ecstatic to slaughter every member of the Bundy family down to the last hired ranch hand….what they would really prefer not to suffer though is negative press.
    It raises awkward questions during appropriation cycles.
    But even if some “Ranger” decided to go all “Ludlow Massacre” on the Bundys what would you care…..after all they’re just family and friends of a cracker ass racist and no loss the the “new class” at all.

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  27. Brad Croul Avatar
    Brad Croul

    ” I’m sure the notoriously heavy handed feds would be ecstatic to slaughter every member of the Bundy family down to the last hired ranch hand.”- Fish, I hope that was a joke- Otherwise, I can see why you don’t use your real name since your employer and/or underlings might be surprised at the “real” you.
    I would say Mack is less “Chicago activist” and more Saddam (human shield) Hussein.
    Maybe we can get him back up her for an encore performance. I missed the last one. What a hoot!

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  28. fish Avatar
    fish

    I would say Mack is less “Chicago activist” and more Saddam (human shield) Hussein.
    I’m sure you would because you’re confusing the reference….the “Chicago Activist” reference refers to the Alinskyite practice of turning an opponents strength into a weakness. Putting women on the front lines does that.
    And as always…..LOL.

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  29. stevenfrisch Avatar
    stevenfrisch

    Posted by: fish | 25 April 2014 at 05:27 AM
    “……praising the Feds for de-escalating the situation. Putting women up front does just that.”
    I don’t think the threat is from the BLM law enforcement at this point. I am much more concerned about the motley collection of rural western militia members with semi-automatic scoped weapons roaming the hills and controlling access to what Mr. Bundy claims is his land. One hopped up, tweaker, neo-nazi, second amendment waving, anti-federal government asshole could ruin the whole day by shooting someone in the head then the women and children in the front line would pay the price.
    The very ethics of putting your women and children up front so you build sympathy for your movement if they are killed is, as Brad pointed out, Saddam Hussein ethics.
    My praise was for the Feds plan to lien Bund’y property, take him into custody when he goes into town for a beer, then seize his home ranch to pay his back taxes, fees and penalties while he is in custody, preferably during a snow storm so the militia assholes stay up in Idaho.

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  30. fish Avatar
    fish

    I don’t think the threat is from the BLM law enforcement at this point. I am much more concerned about the motley collection of rural western militia members with semi-automatic scoped weapons roaming the hills and controlling access to what Mr. Bundy claims is his land. One hopped up, tweaker, neo-nazi, second amendment waving, anti-federal government asshole could ruin the whole day by shooting someone in the head then the women and children in the front line would pay the price.
    Yeah they could…but they haven’t yet so I guess we’ll just need to wait and see!
    The very ethics of putting your women and children up front so you build sympathy for your movement if they are killed is, as Brad pointed out, Saddam Hussein ethics.
    Again….. matter of opinion. The who’s a “terrorist” vs. who’s a “freedom fighter” argument all over again.

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  31. Gregory Avatar
    Gregory

    “I don’t think the threat is from the BLM law enforcement at this point” -Frisch
    It would still be were it not for the motley collection of rural western militia members with semi-automatic scoped weapons showing up.
    “controlling access to what Mr. Bundy claims is his land” -Frisch
    Bundy hasn’t ever claimed the public rangelands as his own. Lying again, Steve? How about coughing up the contact info for your board, as you once promised? You have my email address.
    “One hopped up, tweaker, neo-nazi, second amendment waving, anti-federal government asshole could ruin the whole day by shooting someone in the head then the women and children in the front line would pay the price.”-Frisch
    Steve, they’re in Nevada, call it Baja Utah. Not your native Chicago, where Subway sandwich employees can work in bulletproof safety. What a world.
    http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/chicago-subway-bulletproof-case-protect-employees-article-1.1768270

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  32. Paul Emery Avatar

    So Fish, you r support of Bundy makes it seem logical that you have no problem with pot farmers using Federal land for grows that conform to California State law.

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  33. Gregory Avatar
    Gregory

    Paul, planting crops isn’t a moral or a legal equivalent to grazing on the Commons, and never has been.

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  34. Paul Emery Avatar

    Gregory
    Huh? 11:24 Can you explain that?

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  35. fish Avatar
    fish

    So Fish, you r support of Bundy makes it seem logical that you have no problem with pot farmers using Federal land for grows that conform to California State law.
    No Paul it’s far deeper than merely conforming with or not conforming with state law, and where I must depart from my more conservative bretheren!
    I have no problem with anyone planting pot anywhere for any reason medicinal or not. I think people oughta have window boxes with weed….I think they ought to be able to grow it out back next to the tomatoes……and all of it untaxed by the cold dead hand of the state.
    Will that be sufficient?

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  36. stevenfrisch Avatar
    stevenfrisch

    Greg, you have our address.

    Like

  37. Gregory Avatar
    Gregory

    Steve, you promised contact info for your Board, were I to send you a email request. I sent the email, you did not follow through.
    So, were you lying?

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  38. Gregory Avatar
    Gregory

    Paul, there are essential differences between letting an animal wander in a Commons, free to graze, and planting crops, whether pot, wheat or oranges. Grazing doesn’t exclude other uses; planting crops does.

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  39. Paul Emery Avatar

    Gregory
    How about mining or logging ? What category does that fall under? Also who should be responsible for enforcing restridctions that you feel are necessary (cultivation for example)

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  40. Gregory Avatar
    Gregory

    C’mon, Paul, you aren’t that dense. Perhaps I can help you if you can tell me what crops, legal under Federal law, are now being legally grown on Federal land in our state sp we have something to compare your Pot reference to.

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  41. Brad Croul Avatar
    Brad Croul

    “Grazing doesn’t exclude other uses; planting crops does” – except when they graze on your pot plants, lol!
    I think you could overgraze land so the roots die, the topsoil blows away, and thereby exclude grazing, or growing. That is what the Forest Service and BLM are tasked to monitor. Overgrazing is, or has been, rampant for decades. The ranchers (generally speaking) using BLM might not have as much of an incentive to husband the BLM land as well as their own since they can walk away from it. If ranchers were held to the same standards as, say, mining operations are, they might have more of an incentive to make sure the place was not overworked.

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  42. fish Avatar
    fish

    How about mining or logging ? What category does that fall under? Also who should be responsible for enforcing restridctions that you feel are necessary (cultivation for example)
    So not about grazing anymore……and always, always back to the bureaucracy with you.

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  43. fish Avatar
    fish

    Pity….can’t get anyone to acknowledge Mr. Bundys distasteful and off putting lack of racism over on the ruminations thread.
    Have at him you fabulously anti racist proglodyte warriors…..
    It would seem that the Old Grey Lady employs those who attended the “Jeff Pelline Academy for Selective Editing” to show those not aligned with your politics in the worst possible light.
    In a YouTube video, he is filmed already in mid-sentence.
    “… and so what I’ve testified to you — I was in the Watts riot, I seen the beginning fire and I seen that last fire. What I seen is civil disturbance. People are not happy, people are thinking they don’t have their freedoms, they didn’t have these things, and they didn’t have them.
    We’ve progressed quite a bit from that day until now, and we sure don’t want to go back. We sure don’t want the colored people to go back to that point. We sure don’t want these Mexican people to go back to that point. And we can make a difference right now by taking care of some of these bureaucracies, and do it in a peaceful way.

    Those comments appear to change the context of the next section, which was quoted in the New York Times. One clear point the rancher made: America has progressed since the 1965 race riots and “we sure don’t want to go back.”
    Here are the heavily quoted comments from Bundy that followed the above section edited out by most news organizations.
    “Let me tell, talk to you about the Mexicans, and these are just things I know about the negroes. I want to tell you one more thing I know about the negro. When I go, went, go to Las Vegas, North Las Vegas, and I would see these little government houses, and in front of that government house the door was usually open and the older people and the kids — and there’s always at least a half a dozen people sitting on the porch. They didn’t have nothing to do. They didn’t have nothing for their kids to do. They didn’t have nothing for their young girls to do.
    And because they were basically on government subsidy — so now what do they do? They abort their young children, they put their young men in jail, because they never, they never learned how to pick cotton. And I’ve often wondered are they were better off as slaves, picking cotton and having a family life and doing things? Or are they better off under government subsidy?
    You know they didn’t get more freedom, they got less freedom — they got less family life, and their happiness — you could see it in their faces — they wasn’t happy sitting on that concrete sidewalk. Down there they was probably growing their turnips — so that’s all government, that’s not freedom.”

    But Bundy went on after saying that — and again, his comments were edited out of most reports.
    “Now, let me talk about the Spanish people. You know, I understand that they come over here against our Constitution and cross our borders. But they’re here and they’re people — and I’ve worked side by side a lot of them.
    Don’t tell me they don’t work, and don’t tell me they don’t pay taxes. And don’t tell me they don’t have better family structures than most of us white people. When you see those Mexican families, they’re together, they picnic together, they’re spending their time together, and I’ll tell you in my way of thinking they’re awful nice people. And we need to have those people join us and be with us not, not come to our party.”

    http://www.truthrevolt.org/news/unedited-tape-bundy-emerges-sheds-light-racist-remarks
    As I said…..inelegant language.
    Well that just sucks now don’t it…..time to put down the pitchforks and douse the torches….I guess you’ll need to find something else to carp about this weekend
    ….and….3….2….1…..GO!

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  44. Paul Emery Avatar

    Gregory
    But your icon, Bundy, doesn’t believe the feds have any place in regulating federal lands. I assumed you shared that belief. But now it seems only to apply to grazing. You’re position is beyond comprehension.
    Also. I didn’t see any response from you when the Feds were romping over private property last year enforcing Federal laws that were contrary to California laws. You are a classic example of Libertarian light or perhaps you are just a run of the mill Republican. Beats me.

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  45. Russ Steele Avatar

    Local lefty quick to jump on Bundy the Racist mime, that was all the result of some lefty editing of what he really said.
    The controversy over Cliven Bundy’s “racist” remarks has taken a new turn after longer unedited footage emerged showing the Nevada cattle rancher making pro-black and pro-Mexican comments that were excised out of media reports.
    You can see that the lefty media edited and what Bundy really said HERE.

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  46. Walt Avatar

    Back to the “women and children in front”?? Really? LIBS have historically used them as “human shields”. How many instances do you need? Hell! LIBS have gone out of their way to play that game. The even go as far as the Middle East to get in on the action.
    Then want to sue because they happen to have been injured in the process. ( remember the local fools that did that and one took a tear gas canister to the melon?)
    So when another group does the “same”,, LIBS take issue?? LOL!!
    Sorry Paul,, I beat you to the news of the “BM” idiot fest. yet not a rebuttal on the “endangered FED land” the hipsters want to squat on ( yes,, literally)
    Then again,, LET the ” eco lovers” show their true colors. The place would be a trash heap within a week. Just who will have to clean up after them? LIBS of this caliber are not known for their “pack it in,, pack it out”. They leave the problem for others to deal with.
    Then there are Mr. Bundy’s comments that were twisted to fit the needs of the Left.
    Instant racist. ( never mind Dirty Harry used the same analogy a while back…. But that was different.. It’s OK for a Progressive to say things like that.)
    Just like it was fine for ” Snowman” Sharpton to repeatedly use the “N” word in speeches…( I guess it’s just fine when the room is full of like minded people “of color”.)

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  47. Brad Croul Avatar
    Brad Croul

    The Bundyfest/minuteman love-in aside,
    How far has Bundy taken the case that he his grazing use trumps the planned forced bussing of the turtle horde ? I assume it has not made it to the Supremes yet. Does he have a leg to stand on as a, formally, “permitted grazer”? I think not.

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  48. stevenfrisch Avatar
    stevenfrisch

    Posted by: Gregory | 25 April 2014 at 12:10 PM
    Here is the deal Gregory, I am not going to let you or Todd harass my board of directors. If you want to serve any sort of legal notice to Sierra Business Council you can do it at our business address, which is
    PO Box 2428
    Truckee Ca 96160
    or
    10183 Truckee Airport Road
    Truckee Ca 96161
    Anything you deliver to that address and addressed to my board of directors I will forward to my board of directors.
    Nothing I am saying here has anything to do with my employment.
    George, do you support posters at your site contacting the employers of other posters?

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  49. Walt Avatar

    How bout the fact that cows are no danger to turtles? There is NO justifiable reason that cows can’t be there. And because ” WE say so”( the gov.) doesn’t cut it.
    Prescriptive easement laws apply.(in my opinion) Mr. Bundy was using that land long beforehand. But since this is the Obummer administration, this is just one of those laws they choose to ignore.
    How bout the other ranchers that are now long gone and their property now owned by BLM? They didn’t want, or could afford the battle, and gave into government arm twisting.. No,, you don’t get the stories behind that.
    Bundy is the last one standing.
    As for the turtle horde,, using the “endangered” excuse for something that even at face value isn’t really endangered,,, should be criminal in it’s own right.
    Only LIBS could dream up such a scam to “legally” separate one from one’s property by government decree… ” It’s for the critters”.
    Remember that when people will be paying heavily for Ca. fruits and veggies this year. The same goes for beef, and pork. ( all because of a bastard sardine, that’s more important than feeding little children.)

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  50. Brad Croul Avatar
    Brad Croul

    Just making sure, are you saying the government is taking his private property and the other rancher’s private property through eminent domain? That is different from deciding not to renew grazing permits on land “owned” by the government that was taken from the Paiutes. If anyone should be grazing on that land it should be the indians, not Bundy.
    But, back in the day, the Bundy clan probably did not give a hoot that any indians were displaced because the the pale faces had the backing of the calvary back then to run the indians off.
    What goes around, comes around.

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