Rebane's Ruminations
March 2014
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George Rebane

This weekend Jo Ann and I, along with some Nevada County friends, attended the annual retreat in Scottsdale, AZ put on by the Mercatus Center and the Institute for Humane Studies (both at George Mason University).  The conference for liberty prone supporters was a welcome opportunity to hear stimulating speakers, attend breakout sessions on various national issues, and eat great food at the Montelucia resort.

The format of the retreat allows its attendees (slightly north of 200) to have ample time for one-on-one discussions with nationally recognized scholars and well-published pundits.  I especially enjoyed my chats with economists Tyler Cowan and Peter Boettke, and philosopher Matt Zwolinski.  It was good to re-establish that one’s understanding and interpretations of what is going on in the country are not a lonely collection of notions shared by no one else.  While we did identify some differences, they were not of the magnitude that would put us in different ideological camps.  It was truly a libertarian lovefest.


Saturday night’s speaker at the concluding gala dinner was none other than Peter Schiff, nationally known media pundit and author who at times gives me pause when I consider his assessment of how far beyond the tipping point America has gone in the management of its fisc.  Schiff’s latest book, The Real Crash – How to save yourself and your country, sums up his views.  But if you’ve been a regular RR reader, you already know Schiff’s copy fairly well (summary notes here).

A common theme of all the speakers and discussion leaders was that they are ‘short term pessimistic, and long term optimistic’.  It was that proposition in which I most strongly differed with my betters, for I believe exactly the opposite.  Our political system is geared for the short term; every program, legislative vote, and lie to constituencies is designed for just one objective – re-election.  The long term is treated as if it either doesn’t exist or matter.  When we combine this political behavior with accelerating technology, we get what I believe is the fundamentally strong socio-economic result I have long argued, and that we are now witnessing.

On its current course America's economy will continue to reduce the number of available jobs per capita, and its population will not produce the sufficient number of workers to fill the jobs that are produced.

I did my best to make the case for growing systemic unemployment in these pre-Singularity years.  And to my pleasant surprise found these ideas to be received well with serious consideration if not downright acceptance.  We shall see if there are any spreading ripples.

Schiff’s talk covered the details of how we got into this mess called the Great Recession (which I call Depression2), and the nature of the outright lies that we are being told about the non-existent recovery.  Numbers can be deliciously slippery things, and there’s no way that a progressive will acknowledge, let alone agree with a libertarian’s interpretation of economic history.  In any event, Schiff ran out of time before he could switch from diagnosis, prognostications, to prescriptions for a better future.  To remedy that I present some stepping stones on his path to salvation as described in his above referenced book.

-    Jobs: Government can improve employment only by getting out of the way;
-    Fixing the financial industry: Deregulate;
-    Sound money: Return to the gold standard;
-    Tax Reform: For starters, end the income tax;
-    Tear up the “third rails”: End Social Security and Medicare;
-    Fixing Higher Ed: Time to drop out of college? (also see MOOCs);
-    Healthcare:  Repealing Obamacare is just the beginning;
-    America is bankrupt: Time to admit it.

[25mar14 update]  Dr Matthew Slaughter, professor and associate dean at Dartmouth, makes the credible claim that America’s H1-B visa and immigration policies are costing the country an additional 500,000 jobs annually.  This is based on the fact that the 85,000 restricted H1-B applicants consist primarily of degreed STEM workers whose demonstrated multiplier effect results in the half million figure.  There are about twice as many STEM applicants annually as are allowed in by our misguided immigration policies.  These foreigners are also the people who found companies that bring untold wealth, trade balances, and prestige to the United States as a leader of the developed world.  Each year the fraction of native born Americans in the STEM ranks continues to shrink while our politicians are finagling how to get more illegals amnesty to join the constituencies that keep them in office.  (more here)

Meanwhile, our own universities are pumping out graduates an ever increasing fraction of whom are winding up unemployed with unpayable college debt.  Why are they unemployed?  Well they studied stuff that no one cares about enough to take a chance on their ability to do a job in this Potemkin economy.  (more here and H/T to reader)

[26mar14 update]  The big debate forming up between factions of the Right is how to go forward as the self-purported conservators of the nation’s fisc and future.  Republicans are the party of prominence and power for the Right, and leaders of that party have been pushing proposals and legislation that take major steps toward what Schiff and other national thought leaders have prescribed for at least twenty years now.  Today those proposals are ignored by Democrats, and worse, denied that any such proposals have ever been put forward by Republicans.  The lamestream dutifully echoes that message and repeats it to keep the uninformed misinformed.

But the Repubs have not been innocent in contributing to the fiscal and social train wreck ahead.  When they did get their fingertips on the levers of power, they have been simply overwhelmed by the reality of an entrenched liberal government bureaucracy and an electorate that has gotten more than used to the handouts of a carefully constructed nanny state.  And the result has been that the party’s sage heads have always concluded that it would be imprudent to be prudent – imprudent in the sense that if prudence were proposed, Republicans would be thrown out of office.

So today we have the more socialist than ever Democrats with their back firmly turned on reality, believing that they can bamboozle the voters and lenders forever, as they continue to lavish goodies for votes – goodies that are paid for with borrowed money that is even used to service the ever growing debt.  The whole game is based on new lenders forever lending more at ridiculously low interest rates, and old lenders continuing to cook their books, having long abandoned hope of recovering their principal.  To the collectivist, that is how the financing of governance works.

To support this ongoing fiasco requires the careful management of ‘information’ from the government and their corporate cronies.  For example, we are told that America is recovering from the Great Recession.  But by any real measures of the economy’s progress or comparisons to baseline amounts and rates, nothing could be further from the truth.  So the farce will continue until the lenders start demanding real interest for the risk of playing perpetual Ponzi with Uncle Sam.  When that happens the fiscal flywheel that has kept things going will simply disintegrate, spraying shrapnel into every corner of our economy.  Then as we gather in the streets with our pitchforks and torches, it will dawn on us why our police have been quietly militarized.

And no one in our fair land is prepared to do anything to break this vicious cycle of ever more debt to fund ever more spending to buy ever more votes to remain ever more in office.

When we look at the Republicans as the loyal opposition whose long voiced principles are supposed to be the great hope that pulls us back from the brink, we see sage heads shaking and advising that the GOP should help the Dems stay the course.  These ‘pragmatic’ pundits inhabit the full range of Republican politics, telling our candidates that it is better to forego principles and be re-elected, than remain principled and risk being defeated in the next election.  For after all, what can an unelected politician do to help the country right itself?

This Catch-22 is so firmly in place that even local county level advisors to our congressional representatives are not willing to discuss the ridiculous state of affairs in which we find ourselves.  In my talks with these folks, I simply run into a brick wall when making the case that what can’t go on forever, won’t.  Everyone on the Right agrees that what’s happening can’t go on forever, but they will not even consider advising our electeds to do anything that would prevent the train wreck.  I take that back.  These advisers and their elected Republican patrons concur that the country only needs a little magical pixie dust to bring back the Ozzie and Harriet world of the 1950s, and then the country will somehow be back on the yellow brick road to full employment, robust GDP growth, shrinking national debt, and an ever positive current account.

But the numbers say it ain’t gonna happen.

Posted in , , ,

103 responses to “A Libertarian Lovefest in Scottsdale (updated 26mar14)”

  1. Walt Avatar

    Todd. If you speak out, or shine the light of day on “anything LIB” ,, it’s considered a “personal attack”. You don’t even need to mention names, and the real name calling and belittlement ratchets up. ( and don’t I know it.)

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  2. Todd Juvinall Avatar

    Walt, so true. When you read from the manual of law to a lib he calls that a personal attack. I have experienced that many times.

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  3. Michael Anderson Avatar
    Michael Anderson

    Well Russ, I hope you now have the answers to your question. Greg believes that my snarky response to his whining about skilled engineers from foreign countries increasing competition for labor justifies his trashing my business and my employees. Russ, do you think this is appropriate behavior? Apparently George supports it since he does nothing about it.

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  4. Joe Koyote Avatar
    Joe Koyote

    Walt 10:38 — I could give a rat’s ass about Harry Reid or any of the rest of them. To me they are all the same, Republican/Democrat, it doesn’t matter. One is just as crooked and self-serving as the next.

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  5. Gregory Avatar

    “his trashing my business and my employees”
    There was no trashing, Mike. Grow up.

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  6. Michael Anderson Avatar
    Michael Anderson

    Go fuck yourself Greg.

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  7. Todd Juvinall Avatar

    Michael A and Steve F are too funny. I have asked both for the gender and racial backgrounds of their employees since they were always chastising us about being a racist or sexist. They refuse to supply the info because it would catch them in their hypocrisy. Bit I guess that is a personal attack. Too funny!

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  8. Gregory Avatar

    Todd, if MA’s web site is up to date, he has three white guys working for him. On the young side, and I’ve met one of them in an unrelated context. Go ahead and browse his website, it isn’t hidden.
    Perhaps the always on edge Michael Anderson will someday grace us with a sentence he thinks is a trashing. In any case, thanks, Mike, for another example of malice, as if I really need more.

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  9. Gregory Avatar

    For those of you interested, here’s a list of that great talent being given H-1 visas, and the average salaries:
    http://www.myvisajobs.com/Reports/2012-H1B-Visa-Category.aspx?T=JT
    George, you might compare those salaries to the ones your American engineers were getting, in 2012 dollars of course.

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  10. Walt Avatar

    That’s the best you can come up with Joe? This is YOUR party of affiliation.
    Since when did you stop defending Progressives?… Today??
    These things need to be pointed out to the resident Lefties here. The likes of MSNBC isn’t going to report it. I have seen how the second coming of Walter Cronkite ( John Daily) (uh) reports the headlines..
    Now here in Ca. four of your own politicians have paid a visit to the Graybar Hotel in resent history. And the latest for GUN RUNNING, among other charges.
    It seems the only thing pissing off the rest of the LIBS in Sac. ,, is that they have lost the “super majority”, and the Repubs can actually have some say in things.( like fighting tax hikes)
    And just maybe the fact they got caught.
    How much more proof is needed that most elected LIBS are rotten to the core?
    From “O” on down. Holder has been to busy covering his own hide to stop these investigations. ( but not on Ca. gun stores apparently. Gotta get that customer list)
    Ya gotta do better there Ki-oat,, This ditch digger can bury you.( in facts)

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  11. Michael Anderson Avatar
    Michael Anderson

    Greg, I have vast knowledge of your entire engineering career in Nevada County. And the only reason I even bring that up is because you brought it up first. But I don’t talk about the details on the blogs because that’s not the way I roll.
    Oh, and please go fuck yourself.

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  12. Gregory Avatar

    “But I don’t talk about the details on the blogs because that’s not the way I roll.”
    Mike, you don’t repeat it because you have nothing but lies and innuendo.

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  13. Bill Tozer Avatar
    Bill Tozer

    Greg and Michael sitting in a tree, K-I-S-S-I-N-G. First come love, then comes marriage, then come little Greggie and Mikey in a baby carriage.

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  14. Michael Anderson Avatar
    Michael Anderson

    Good one, Tozer.
    First sign of intelligence on this blog in over a week.
    Where’s the proprietor?

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  15. fish Avatar
    fish

    Where’s the proprietor?
    Letting us all wallow in free speech….thought you were for that?

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  16. Gregory Avatar

    Stands to reason a childish vamp from the girl’s jump rope playground greatest hits would appeal to Anderson as intelligent.
    Perhaps George is off reconsidering his stance on H-1 visas. Here’s a take from a source that the Anderson and Frisch’s would enjoy more than George does… Mother Jones. “How H-1B Visas Are Screwing Tech Workers: A program meant to boost innovation instead fuels outsourcing”. A former subscriber, I’m used to picking out the gems from the steaming piles in most issues.
    An excerpt:
    “[In] reality, most of today’s H-1B workers don’t stick around to become the next Albert Einstein or Sergey Brin. ComputerWorld revealed last week that the top 10 users of H-1B visas last year were all offshore outsourcing firms such as Tata and Infosys. Together these firms hired nearly half of all H-1B workers, and less than 3 percent of them applied to become permanent residents. “The H-1B worker learns the job and then rotates back to the home country and takes the work with him,” explains Ron Hira, an immigration expert who teaches at the Rochester Institute of Technology. None other than India’s former commerce secretary once dubbed the H-1B the “outsourcing visa.””
    Hira’s Senate testimony is here:
    http://www.judiciary.senate.gov/imo/media/doc/04-22-13HiraTestimony.pdf
    An excerpt:
    “Under the bill’s wages, a firm could hire an electronics engineer for a mere $39,000 per year in College Station, TX. This is more than a 37% discount (a whopping $23,000 annually) over the starting salary for an entry level Bachelor’s degree engineer. And it is an astonishing 59% lower than the national average wage of $95,250 for electronics engineers at all skill levels.”
    Again, I know of a company in Grass Valley who scored a foreigner (nice kid) with a fresh MSEE from a well known East coast university for only $40k. Poor guy was stuck in a bad market and had to take what he could get (or go home) and put up with it for a couple of years, because it really is a form of indentured servitude.

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  17. Scott Obermuller Avatar

    Greg – how is lowering the cost of doing business in this country a bad thing?
    The 40K a year job in GV is not indentured servitude in any way, shape or form. What country was he from? That money might be far more than he could make at home. During the depression, our country was flooded with highly trained and educated folks from certain areas of Europe. It was one of the reasons we did so well in tech for decades. We need to open the gates for the best and brightest from the world.
    Instead we open the gates for the poorest and least educated. National suicide.

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  18. Gregory Avatar

    While $40K with minimal benefits might look good to a number of locals, it is on the low side for an MSEE, and if you look at the definition:
    in·den·ture
    verb:
    1.
    bind (someone) by an indenture as an apprentice or laborer.
    synonyms: bind, contract, employ, apprentice
    That is what the H-1B does; it binds the foreign worker to that particular employer for the duration and if they get fired or laid off they could find themselves having to leave the country unless they can find a job quick for another company willing to sponsor an H-1B. Who do you think has the upper hand in that salary negotiation?
    Scott, thanks for accepting the reality of H-1B wage suppresion, but I’m not sure that thought fits with George and Russ’ SESF TechTest message.
    George, what do you think? “Take the hardest classes your college has to offer but we’ll have the borders open for kids who took similarly named courses to make sure no one has to pay you as much as the management and law school grads will make”.
    Sound good?

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  19. George Rebane Avatar

    Gregory 140pm – Have no idea what “stance” on H-1Bs I’m supposed to “reconsider”. The single employer ploy for the duration of an H-1B is a stranger to me. All the H-1Bs I hired over the years came to me from previous employers – i.e. I hired them away from their existing jobs. And the fact that they were H1-Bs came out in the interviews after the candidate had qualified himself on his merits.
    Your perceived TechTest message rings hollow in its final part. With the numbers involved, am pretty sure that the H1-B program does not bend the salary curve so as you would notice. Most certainly neither I nor my acquaintance of peers helped bend that curve.
    But during the seminars I do tell the TT kids about the global market for STEM workers and our H1-B program. They know they are competing in one of last remaining unprotected job markets in the world. And America would definitely benefit more if we would open up a facile path to citizenship for H1-B workers.

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  20. Scott Obermuller Avatar

    Greg – you used the term ‘indentured servitude’ and then quoted a definition of just ‘indenture’. Millions of folks work under contract. And when they lose the contract or are fired, they have to look elsewhere for employment. So? You need to go back and look at the history of actual indentured servitude as practised in this country. H1-B is not the same thing at all.
    I ask again – what is wrong with lowering the cost of doing business in this country?
    I do not see my way as ‘wage suppression’. I see your way as ‘artificial wage protectionism’. And as with all economic protectionism, it ends up working against the very folks that you try to protect. We are losing our design and production abilities – how does that help wages in the long run?

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  21. Bill Tozer Avatar
    Bill Tozer

    In this market, the employers have the upper hand. No ifs, ands or butts about it. And its not just wage that is expensive. Add the cost of Workman’s Comp, the employer’s share of FICA, Medicare, unemployment insurance, SDI, you have a $40,000/year new hire costing about 70k a year with bennies and employers 3-4% matching to the 401k.
    Just read that Ford is going to invest 500 million greenbacks on a plant and that will employ a mere 300 workers on the site. Think Chevron spends 26 million dollars investing in capital and assets for every new employee it hires.
    Take a kid straight out of business school with a CPA certificate and he will be paying his dues for the first 2 years until he /she gets some experience under his/her kilt.
    Follow the Yellow Brick Road to find the end of the last recession or the beginning of the next one. We are off to see the Wizard because we are off our rockers to believe the future looks bright and rosy. Well, at least our 45 million billion gazillion uninsured folks are getting coverage. Yeah right:
    http://news.investors.com/032814-695150-obamacare-enrollment-exposes-democrat-lies-about-the-uninsured.htm?ven=fox_businesscp&src=aurlaeu&p=2

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  22. Bill Tozer Avatar
    Bill Tozer

    Opps, that is page two of the link. Hit previous at bottom to read page one.

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  23. Scott Obermuller Avatar

    Correct, Bill – Employers have the upper hand on wages, but the total cost of employment is way high in this country because of the govt. Let’s tell the govt to butt out of the private sector employment. Any transfer of funds that are mandated by govt should be handled by the govt. The employer pays the employee the wage and then the employee will settle with the govt any fees or taxes the govt demands. When the govt demands the employer to become the tax collector, it masks the actual costs involved from the public. Just about every working person pays bills every month. Make the govt just be another check the citizens write every month. SDI, taxes, unemployment, any health insurance you want to have and so on. Tends to educate the citizens just what everything costs. Of course, educated citizens tend to be – ahem – Tea Party types and we all know how evil that is.

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  24. Joe Koyote Avatar
    Joe Koyote

    “Make the govt just be another check the citizens write every month. SDI, taxes, unemployment, any health insurance you want to have and so on”. Not a bad idea, which I am sure would be loved by low wage employers like big box stores and fast food outlets, as it would save millions in book keeping expenses. However, will employers kick up salaries to make up for the loss of benefits or will employees just eat it and the money go into the pockets of the employers? Another possible issue is retirement. I think one of the reasons SS was implemented was that many people are horrible at saving money and if they aren’t forced to save they won’t. Of course this is gov’t intrusion and gov’t telling people what to do, but what is more effective forcing people to save for retirement via SS or a similar system, creating some kind of charity based system to care for those non-savers in their old age, or just letting them starve and telling them “I told you so!”?

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  25. fish Avatar
    fish

    …..or just letting them starve and telling them “I told you so!”?
    Feature not a bug!

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  26. George Rebane Avatar

    JoeK 1017am – Given your concern for people with little ability to handle their own concerns, do you see any limit to the extension of your philosophy of the state’s policies of nurturing by force? Or is the measure of a good state the extent to which it cares for those who can’t or won’t (as long as its implementations are equitable)?

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  27. Walt Avatar

    Think they have trouble now Joe? ( the “low” wage gang) Wait till the graduates of “common core” hit the bricks.
    I can’t wait to see what CC has done with the tape measure.
    We all have the same 24 hrs. of a day. If your not rich, it’s no one’s fault but you own. ( or theirs) It’s their own problem they didn’t pay attention in school. People make their own choice to be “low income” workers.
    We are guaranteed “equal opportunity” NOT “equal outcome”. Yet that’s what LIBS say “should be”.
    How many freeloaders will you keep under your roof? You go out and bust your butt, while they are there eating you out of house and home, running up the utility bills. ” Equal outcome” Pal,,, ( wait till mother in law shows up to retire.)
    I don’t think you would put up with it vary long.
    BTW,, Thanks to Liberal monkey business, the 40 hr. work week will only be for skilled workers. You can thank Obummercaretax for that. So many will need two jobs to get by. ( great idea)

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  28. Bill Tozer Avatar
    Bill Tozer

    Walt, it is not good for someone to sit around the barn eating all the hay. You are preaching to the choir even though I can’t carry a tune.
    Our current system was set up to take care of the lame, the sick, the slow. No problem there with me, be it from heredity (genetic defect), things out of there control (a car slams into your bedroom while you are sleeping, crushing your spine)or by foolishness (a person takes 36 hits of acid, puts a 22 up to the temple, pulls the trigger, and lives). That ain’t what burns my ever shrinking butt.
    What burns my ever shrinking butt is there are way too many people falling into the lame, slow, feeble, and sluggard category. When a much higher percentage of folks are sitting around the barn eating all the hay than in years past, it becomes are heavy burden to bear for those working in the fields.
    Our workforce is shrinking. Less folks pushing the wagon. States have figured out that it is way cheaper to get their residents off welfare and long term unemployment by transferring them to Social Security Disability. Heck, 30 years ago, there was not one single case of ADD known in Japan and rare in the USofA. Now every kid has it and Mom and Pop get a child support check every month from Uncle Obama. Can you give me one good reason why the Disability rolls went from around 6-7 million total in the USA to over 11 million since Obama took office? That percentage of growth of the Disability rolls is unheard of and unprecedented. Must be caused by all the stress waiting for your 4th and 5th Obamaphone.
    About Social Security. It is called Social Security Supplemental Income. Get that? Supplemental income. Never designed to be your sole retirement income. Never. We all know retirement is coming and we had had all our lives to prepare for it. The prudent and wise frogs dig down into the mud as winter approaches and make it through. The foolish and carefree frogs play and frolic on the top of the pond until one day it freezes over and they become frog sickles. Not a pretty sight. Should have listened.
    Our founders knew that some people are simply more talented, smarter, innovative and resourceful. Equal opportunity does not mean equal outcome. Preach it Walt, preach it loud, preach it proud.

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  29. Scott Obermuller Avatar

    That’s funny – “I think one of the reasons SS was implemented was that many people are horrible at saving money and if they aren’t forced to save they won’t.”
    Guess what? The same folks that won’t save, voted in pols that won’t save.
    What did they do with the SS money they took from me? Gone. Another colossal
    govt fail.
    Planing for the future and putting aside resources is a basic responsibility every adult should be involved with. I’d be interested in why vast numbers of Americans suddenly can’t do that. What happened? We used to do it. Heck, even dumb animals put food away for the winter.

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  30. Walt Avatar

    Yes Bill. The “former” current system worked as intended. Just not as “perfect” as the freeloader gang envisions. ” FREE stuff for everyone!”
    Never mind who foots the bill.( as long as it’s not “them”.)
    As far as health insurance goes, we are seeing the destruction of healthcare… Wholesale…
    Seems their idea of “equal care for all” has come full circle. “equally crappy”,, and equally unaffordable. ( except for the ruling class)
    The young that worship the ground LIBS walk on don’t want to work for what they need or want. They want it given to them, and the don’t care how, or who from.
    Somehow a job has been turned into the only way to acquire health coverage.
    ( Ya… get someone else to pay your coverage, like it’s owed to you.)
    The next big LIB “vote for me” BS will come in the form of a “guaranteed” job for anyone who wants one. ” Work is a right!” ” But work at your OWN pace and hours! Your “job will always be there”.
    Let’s see how that will work out… By mandate. ( and at a minimum wage of 25 bucks and hour…. It’s ONLY fair… Right Joe?)

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  31. Joe Koyote Avatar
    Joe Koyote

    George 10:56 — George — “Nurture by force” Interesting terminology. I would be more likely to call it “covering my ass now rather than later when it will be more difficult”.
    I cannot disagree with the notion that people be responsible for themselves. However, there will, for the foreseeable future, be those who, for whatever reasons, are unable to care for themselves. If our society continues down its current path as you contend, the rolls of those who are unable to care for themselves will swell to astronomical proportions. What practical solution do you see as a viable option to so-called “nurture by force”? Will private charitable institutions step up? If so, can they handle the load? Do we do nothing except arm ourselves and put up high fences? I tried the fence but the damn county will only let me put up a six foot solid fence. But that wasn’t to keep out the hungry masses, just the most recent urban transplant who moved in next door and started to complain about everything including the rooster crowing (no kidding.)
    “Planing for the future and putting aside resources is a basic responsibility every adult should be involved with. I’d be interested in why vast numbers of Americans suddenly can’t do that.”
    I think it has to do with our consumer oriented society and the sophistication of advertising and public relations techniques. People are being brainwashed to buy flatscreen TVs, ipads, cell phones, and tons of other junk they don’t really need whether they can afford it or not. In our society success is often measured by how much bling a person flashes. As a child, my parents would take my brother and me on site seeing journeys through the poorest parts of town to show us how others lived. I was always amazed at the number of new cars sitting out front of run down old houses.

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  32. George Rebane Avatar

    JoeK 430pm – regarding your observation about our “consumer oriented society”; I wonder if the you think the government has something to do with promoting such a society. The poor and indigent are taught that they too have the right to enjoy equal benefits of the good life manifested by those who earn more and are better off. The government and its progressive cadres are the prime promoters of such equal outcome measures to demonstrate equal opportunity. Is not our “consumer oriented society” then the natural reaction to such state sponsored education?

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  33. Bill Tozer Avatar
    Bill Tozer

    Good comments Mr. Koyote. Living and spending above one’s means is just one of the problems you have identified. Volumes of anecdotal stories from our forefathers point to walking instead of taking the nickel trolley to making one’s own clothes and never ever buying anything on credit. We can only imitate their behavior in our own personal lives and do not have the power to command society to follow suit. And yes, Granny might have been poor as church mice, but she had the emergency stash in the cookie jar or in her Bible.
    Another side to consumers spending beyond their means is mirrored by government, the spender of first and last resort. When the good times are rolling along, our legislators lick their lips and dream up new ways to spend. Saving for a rainy day is not even on the agenda, except for some Red State governors. When times turn gloomy, all we have is mandated programs and higher expenses than before things turned south. If a bill has a Sunset Clause, it is extended and always put on autopilot.
    There is a quirk about human nature. When the good times are rolling along and we are dancing on the sunny side of the street, our minds and emotions tell us it will always be this way. Conversely, when the years of famine hit, we think it is actually worse than it is and all seems hopeless. Solution: Turn to Big Bro to help us little bros out. Thus more new programs and spending, the death spiral if you will.
    Most relationships have the carefree spender and the prudent one. The saver and the spender, the nerd and the free spirit. Kinda like the mind and the emotions, miles apart yet under the same roof. The responsible and the irresponsible. Once they get on the same page, sacrifice and spending can co-habituate with equal input. Money (financial difficulties and differences) are the number one cause of divorce.
    Ah, divorce. Divorce can lead a nice middle class couple to the poor house as the divorce wipes out their savings and with each one responsible for their separate rents, debts, and livelihood, their standard of living goes bye-bye. It ain’t the 1%ers fault.
    I have started over more times than I remember and each time it has improved my life. I still do not have a flat screen or shinny car. Last new shinny vehicle was in 1981 and just paying the car loan (24 months back then) made me sick. Never again, but I digress. Cash is King. I do have a tiny prudent reserve for the lean times and a fatter cookie jar than last year for my autumn years. And hard assets. Then that runs out, I will live on Social Security and then move on to the marble orchard. Of course, all plans are subject to change.
    FYI: My neighbor has a rooster than I immensely enjoy hearing at the crack of dawn. Another neighbor has donkeys somewhere cause I hear then baying and love it to. And somewhere a neighbor must have grouse or some similar birds cause I can hear them and it makes my life more enriched. Get peacocks and drive your transplant neighbor up the wall, lol. Move to a rural area and expect the mailman to deliver to your door?? What a hoot, pun intended.

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  34. Bill Tozer Avatar
    Bill Tozer

    Just teach our kids if they want something they have to buy it themselves. Even a young pre-teenager will save and save and do anything for work to buy some 300 dollar X Box or bicycle. Told one daughter that if she wanted to go to Costa Rica for a month during the summer, then she can if she pays for it. She was under 18 and went! She also learned how to do comparison shopping with the airlines and how to travel cheap. Took a year of planning. I did kick down for the cost of her passport and shots, but not a dime more. Learned to sacrifice weekend nights for a goal. She even sold her ski boots and used clothes.
    https://scontent-a.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-frc1/t1.0-9/1966944_10152002981885911_511683408_n.jpg
    https://scontent-b.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-prn2/t1.0-9/1383257_10151986237225911_285849699_n.jpg
    https://scontent-b.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-prn2/t1.0-9/1185144_10152002140225911_1131328164_n.jpg

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  35. Joe Koyote Avatar
    Joe Koyote

    George — You are avoiding my question as to what alternatives are there to “forced nurture”?

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  36. Walt Avatar

    Bill. Great post… I taught my kids that if they wanted something, they needed to work for it. ( and for the most part that has worked well.)
    One put himself through collage on the idea of “buy low,, sell high”.
    His product of choice was console video games. He went to Blockbuster and picked up games that were in the “bargain bin” for less than 10 bucks each. Then sold them on Ebay for quadruple, then made an extra buck or two on shipping.
    Now he and his (uh) significant other have paid for a house with this “hobby”. ( we managed to produce at least one good capitalist)
    That teaching has come back to bite. This same kid is sitting on tons of airline miles today. You would think he could break loose some of those miles to help fund his parent’s airfare to the Islands for a MUCH needed vacation.. But NNOOOoooo…. ” You remember what you preached to me?? If you want it,, pay your own way.” Yup,, he had me dead to rights….

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  37. Walt Avatar

    Joe.. Is that your piece of work in the paper today?
    Whine poverty,,, yet have bucks to go on a retreat….
    A ” staff retreat” for a so called “non profit”… Paid for by OPM..
    ( other… people’s….. MONEY.)

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  38. Joe Koyote Avatar
    Joe Koyote

    what alternatives are there to “forced nurture”? — crickets — The conservative mind? Long on complaining absent on solutions.

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  39. George Rebane Avatar

    JoeK 1157am – Joe, as you and yours have wont to do, you answered my 1056am questions with another question, and then are laboring me for not answering it. After you, sir.

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  40. Scott Obermuller Avatar

    Joe – we are the solution. But you don’t like it. It involves self control.
    Not having it pre-dates consumerism by a few millions revolutions around the sun. In those days, if you didn’t exercise it, you didn’t live. Period. Today we have all sorts of protection of kids while they are growing up and (hopefully) learning self control. Those lessons are undermined by those that preach the ‘right’ of everyone to do what ever they want and expect that later the producers will be forced at gun point to hand over ever increasing amounts of goodies. It’s a great selling point come election time. Self control can’t be taught by those who have none of their own. Any more questions?

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  41. Walt Avatar

    Your going to need to ask the government “we know best” office Joe.
    Government has pretty much regulated ” nurturing” out of a parent’s hands.
    We have been forbidden from teaching “right from wrong” to our children.
    If we dare do so, CPS will be on our doorstep with a government warrant in hand.
    Better get the new PS4 for your child before the kid brings child abuse and “equality” charges.. ( It’s not FAIR that the other kids can afford one.) Or “the man” will insist on a “forced nurture” program FOR you.
    Want an “alternative” to your “forced nurture”?? Stop voting for Progressives who are out to control every aspect of our lives, including what and how we teach our kids.
    Charter schools do better jobs than public schools, yet needle bending LIBS despise charter schools. ( see what’s going down in N.Y. on that.)

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  42. Keen Observer Avatar
    Keen Observer

    Case in point in regards to the intelligence of government:
    http://www.today.com/video/today/54826029?from=en-us_msnh
    Apparently, the system is so efficient that it takes a 14yr old student to save government $130 million dollars.

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  43. Bill Tozer Avatar
    Bill Tozer

    Mr. Koyote got to the kernel by asking what are you guys going to replace da current system with (SSI)? One big fat fair question. Its like asking what are “we” going to replace BarackObamacare with? Certainly both are great questions that begs to be answered.
    Concerning SSI, I will take a page out of the Dick Morris/Bill Clinton playbook and say “mend it, don’t end it”. Yes, that is a chicken squat answer but gets to the kernel as well. It has been around too long to suddenly end it as we know it. Massive programs ingrained in the American culture takes years of debates and more Blue Ribbon Commissions appointed before slightly tweaking the outer edges or kicking the can further down the road. Nothing new under the Sun.
    I would start with Federal Disability as judges do not have enough infor or even a representative (civic employee) from the Disability Department in the courtroom to hear the peoples’ side of the coin or to answer questions or offer input. A person on Disability takes a pay cut when they go on SSI. Come on in, the water is warm. The cost of the disability program is the major crisis that will go broke long before Social Security or even Medicare will. Its the elephant in the room that no one is talking about. That program will take us all down if not addressed.
    Don’t get me wrong. I ain’t proposing kicking Tiny Tim and Bob Cratchit out on a snowy Christmas Eve. Nor do I mind paying for Tiny Tim’s single crutch. I do want all cases reviewed properly instead of rubber stamping the applications. That is a start. When Texas and a few other states send out notices to those already on state disability telling them to go see a doctor and have their disability evaluated by a certain date and signed by their doctor (state pays for the Dr’s visit) 25-40% of the disabled simply dropped out voluntarily from the rolls. Long time no come see. Image that. Apply that to the Federal Level and let’s see what happens. Can’t hurt and may save mucho megabucks.
    The real problem is Progressives’ broken thinkers. They are simply what I call control freaks. Force us to save? Tell us all day and all night that we are too stupid to think for ourselves and need them to do our thinking for us. They know how to run our lives and are better than us. Ben Franklin said never trust a government that does not trust citizens with firearms in their hands. Progresses are power mad. Oh, I could go on and on, but that tape has been played before.
    Here is an article by Tammy Bruce that caught my eye. Ms. Bruce was once part of the Gloria Steinem original leadership and a lib to the max. On her lib talk show she noticed something. That “right wingers” that called her show were politer and a heck of a lot more cheerful than her lib callers. She thought “why are the conservative callers happier?” She saw and heard the difference and began a dialogue with her conservative callers to find out what made them genuinely more content than her angry lib friends. Needless to say, she got kicked out of NOW and has dared to keep an open mind. She still is a lib at heart, but she sees the control freaks the way I do and can articulate it so much better.
    http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2014/mar/27/bruce-the-natural-match-of-liberalism-and-corrupti/

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  44. George Rebane Avatar

    BillT 558pm – Amen, Mr Tozer!

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  45. Joe Koyote Avatar
    Joe Koyote

    George 12:26 — My apologies.. I thought I answered the question by stating that I see SSi as a necessary and preventative measure. — No I do not think the government promotes consumerism, Madison Avenue promotes consumerism, and to lay that blame on government is a bit of a stretch common to the conservative mind that seems to want to blame government (whatever or whoever that is) for all that is wrong with society. The reason Wall St. wants to eliminate SSI and create stock market based private savings is so they can get a cut of the action via fees and rob investors blind by crashing the Dow. They don’t like the competition and there is all that money just waiting to be grabbed. And of course, as we all know, if Congress had kept its hands off the SSi fund there would be no funding problems what-so-ever. Now.. about alternatives?
    Scott: 12:32 — You must have missed the sentence where I stated that I do not disagree with the notion that people be responsible for themselves. ” Self control can’t be taught by those who have none of their own.” I agree and this is largely responsible for the ten percent of gov’t assistance recipients commonly characterized as “welfare queens.” The other 90% are working people who have fallen on hard times. However, this does not change the situation whereby some people are not, for whatever reason, able to save. This brings me back to my original question. What should a society do with these people? What are the practical alternatives to a tax based system, charity, nothing?

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  46. Walt Avatar

    Joe… Just what should a civilized society do for those that refuse to work, because it’s easier to have “stuff” given to them? ( even by government mandate)
    Why should my earnings be confiscated by government and given to some couch potato?
    The “takers” now outnumber the “makers”. And thanks to today’s elected LIB, becoming a “maker” has become even harder. How many stacks of government regs does one need to “comply with” ( and at great expense)before they can even open the door of business? Thanks to LIBS, “free enterprise” is a thing of the past.
    ( I know…. I answered the questions for you.)
    If your Progressive LIBS stay in power, “what to do with them” question will be answered. Work houses, and work camps will be back in fashion. Conceder it “history repeating itself”.
    Find a way to pay your own way,, or government will “be there to help”.

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  47. Keen Observer Avatar
    Keen Observer

    True Capitalism is and has always been a bell curve, in the sense that there must be a complete existence of both winners and losers for the system to work. If you eliminate the bottom end of the bell curve through redistribution (welfare) or other progressive measures, than you undermine the natural bell curve that capitalism creates, and the whole system collapses. Rather than complain about being at the hind end of the bell curve, I prefer to figure out how to survive in the economy and at least be in the middle of the bell curve. It may be hard to remember, but there was a time in this great country where people looked out for themselves and each other, without the need for government to offer a helping hand at every turn. Government has done a fantastic job of convincing citizens that they can become better citizens through assistance. Its not a hard sell to a growing number of people, to accept some form of welfare in exchange for votes, and the snowball grows larger with each election cycle. If our economy and society can’t exist without a government offering significant monetary help, than the system is nothing less than artificial and it should not exist.
    Bill Tozer, right on with your screed on disability. Offering disability to “unemployable” folks is a ploy to deflate the unemployment percentage, offering an overly rosy picture of our economy. Its a little known fact, but any person receiving disability is not counted on the unemployment roles.

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  48. Walt Avatar

    Now how did I miss that the first time? (Offering disability to “unemployable” folks ) Good call…
    There are libraries of gov. regs. on “worker safety”. Trillions have been spent to make the workplace “a safe environment” yet there are record numbers on work related “disability”.
    It sure doesn’t help when even MORE government “rule making” puts people “out of work” just because they take medications. ” Drug free work zones”. That’s not just limited to the “illegal” kind of stuff. Then insurance Co.’s got into the act, and that helped thin the work pool. ” What?? High blood pressure? You take meds for that? Hummm…. You could have an episode on the job!”
    Pick your ailment. It may or may not keep you from a job you want.
    Keen points out another bogus gov game of fuzzy math. ( common Core style)
    The Unemployment count to make things look are fine and rosy. It seems they are down to only counting the checks going out. It used to be called the ” U6″. Now it’s down to what… ” U2″?

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  49. Bill Tozer Avatar
    Bill Tozer

    Somehow I still believe deeply in what The Apostle Paul wrote. If a man will not work, he should not eat. Think Solemn wrote (or someone) in the Book of Proverbs that a man/laborer’s hunger drives him on. The operative words are WILL NOT WORK as opposed to cannot. It has always worked for me. School of hard knocks and character building for this wayward one. Swallow the pride and take a job washing dishing at night till I sorted things out. The Mayflower had “If a man will not work…” as their credo while on the voyage. Later, they had to re-implement it again after the disastrous first year in The New World. The second year brought abundance and chased away starvation. Each man was responsible for his own crop and there was food to share with others.
    May seem harsh and uncaring, but it has always NOT been a matter of giving, but giving under what circumstances. Do you help or hurt a person by giving? Do you stand between a man and his self reliance and fortitude by playing the role of substitute for things he should be doing for himself? Also, I don’t know if Paul meant males only because there were special allowances for widows back in the day, as there are now.
    I don’t believe there is a vast percentage of single males of working age what simply will not work. Even in the Great Depression there was a small percentage (4% or so) of unemployed single males that refused work when offered. Remember there was no unemployment insurance back then.
    Knew a old timer that worked on Grand Coulee Dam. He said that if someone showed up looking for a job, the other workers (who felt threatened that the job seeker might take their job) would pick up their shovels and sledge hammers and physically chase him off. “You ain’t taking my job” they shouted.
    Sure, some are too proud to get their hands dirty. They unusually find a woman to take care of them, especially if they are quick on their feet and can find out in 10 seconds if the woman has a job, a car, and a roof over her head. They will float from Momma Baby to Momma Baby all their lives. When they are shown the door for being a sluggard and taker, they ironically develop hurt feelings and feel they have been wronged, lol. But that is not most folks.
    Unarguably Social Security has lowered the senior poverty rate and lifted many of our elderly out of abject poverty. The original Act extended to widows and widows with children. $35 bucks a month was enough to chase away starvation as well. Don’t think Social Security was meant for a Cuban citizen old lady to sneak over to the Dominican Republic, catch a flight to Miami and qualify for instant SS benefits paying more than my own Mother received. Something is not right with that scenario. Oh yeah I get it now. The Florida votes are important in National Elections.
    Please call me old school. I love hearing it. Human nature is not exempted in this new age. Oh, before I forget, a neighbor young man/older teenager knocked on my door asking if I need help clearing poison oak or moving rock or digging ditches. Should I have sent him to the welfare department instead? Boy, that young man has his head screwed on backwards. There are easier ways to get some money than by the sweat of one’s brow. Sell some dope or something besides toil. What a freak of nature he is, acting so old school and all.

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  50. Scott Obermuller Avatar

    Joe – ” The other 90% are working people who have fallen on hard times.”
    They usually ‘fall on hard times’ because they have no self control.
    The vast majority of hard luck cases involve folks that make very poor choices.
    As soon as you start working, you should start saving. Always have some thing in reserve. Don’t have kids until you can afford them with out public assistance. On and on. Don’t blame Madison Ave. They can’t make anyone do anything.
    Why does the govt reward folks taking out loans and punish savers? The govt is to blame for setting a bad example and encouraging bad behavior.

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