Rebane's Ruminations
March 2014
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George Rebane

This weekend Jo Ann and I, along with some Nevada County friends, attended the annual retreat in Scottsdale, AZ put on by the Mercatus Center and the Institute for Humane Studies (both at George Mason University).  The conference for liberty prone supporters was a welcome opportunity to hear stimulating speakers, attend breakout sessions on various national issues, and eat great food at the Montelucia resort.

The format of the retreat allows its attendees (slightly north of 200) to have ample time for one-on-one discussions with nationally recognized scholars and well-published pundits.  I especially enjoyed my chats with economists Tyler Cowan and Peter Boettke, and philosopher Matt Zwolinski.  It was good to re-establish that one’s understanding and interpretations of what is going on in the country are not a lonely collection of notions shared by no one else.  While we did identify some differences, they were not of the magnitude that would put us in different ideological camps.  It was truly a libertarian lovefest.


Saturday night’s speaker at the concluding gala dinner was none other than Peter Schiff, nationally known media pundit and author who at times gives me pause when I consider his assessment of how far beyond the tipping point America has gone in the management of its fisc.  Schiff’s latest book, The Real Crash – How to save yourself and your country, sums up his views.  But if you’ve been a regular RR reader, you already know Schiff’s copy fairly well (summary notes here).

A common theme of all the speakers and discussion leaders was that they are ‘short term pessimistic, and long term optimistic’.  It was that proposition in which I most strongly differed with my betters, for I believe exactly the opposite.  Our political system is geared for the short term; every program, legislative vote, and lie to constituencies is designed for just one objective – re-election.  The long term is treated as if it either doesn’t exist or matter.  When we combine this political behavior with accelerating technology, we get what I believe is the fundamentally strong socio-economic result I have long argued, and that we are now witnessing.

On its current course America's economy will continue to reduce the number of available jobs per capita, and its population will not produce the sufficient number of workers to fill the jobs that are produced.

I did my best to make the case for growing systemic unemployment in these pre-Singularity years.  And to my pleasant surprise found these ideas to be received well with serious consideration if not downright acceptance.  We shall see if there are any spreading ripples.

Schiff’s talk covered the details of how we got into this mess called the Great Recession (which I call Depression2), and the nature of the outright lies that we are being told about the non-existent recovery.  Numbers can be deliciously slippery things, and there’s no way that a progressive will acknowledge, let alone agree with a libertarian’s interpretation of economic history.  In any event, Schiff ran out of time before he could switch from diagnosis, prognostications, to prescriptions for a better future.  To remedy that I present some stepping stones on his path to salvation as described in his above referenced book.

-    Jobs: Government can improve employment only by getting out of the way;
-    Fixing the financial industry: Deregulate;
-    Sound money: Return to the gold standard;
-    Tax Reform: For starters, end the income tax;
-    Tear up the “third rails”: End Social Security and Medicare;
-    Fixing Higher Ed: Time to drop out of college? (also see MOOCs);
-    Healthcare:  Repealing Obamacare is just the beginning;
-    America is bankrupt: Time to admit it.

[25mar14 update]  Dr Matthew Slaughter, professor and associate dean at Dartmouth, makes the credible claim that America’s H1-B visa and immigration policies are costing the country an additional 500,000 jobs annually.  This is based on the fact that the 85,000 restricted H1-B applicants consist primarily of degreed STEM workers whose demonstrated multiplier effect results in the half million figure.  There are about twice as many STEM applicants annually as are allowed in by our misguided immigration policies.  These foreigners are also the people who found companies that bring untold wealth, trade balances, and prestige to the United States as a leader of the developed world.  Each year the fraction of native born Americans in the STEM ranks continues to shrink while our politicians are finagling how to get more illegals amnesty to join the constituencies that keep them in office.  (more here)

Meanwhile, our own universities are pumping out graduates an ever increasing fraction of whom are winding up unemployed with unpayable college debt.  Why are they unemployed?  Well they studied stuff that no one cares about enough to take a chance on their ability to do a job in this Potemkin economy.  (more here and H/T to reader)

[26mar14 update]  The big debate forming up between factions of the Right is how to go forward as the self-purported conservators of the nation’s fisc and future.  Republicans are the party of prominence and power for the Right, and leaders of that party have been pushing proposals and legislation that take major steps toward what Schiff and other national thought leaders have prescribed for at least twenty years now.  Today those proposals are ignored by Democrats, and worse, denied that any such proposals have ever been put forward by Republicans.  The lamestream dutifully echoes that message and repeats it to keep the uninformed misinformed.

But the Repubs have not been innocent in contributing to the fiscal and social train wreck ahead.  When they did get their fingertips on the levers of power, they have been simply overwhelmed by the reality of an entrenched liberal government bureaucracy and an electorate that has gotten more than used to the handouts of a carefully constructed nanny state.  And the result has been that the party’s sage heads have always concluded that it would be imprudent to be prudent – imprudent in the sense that if prudence were proposed, Republicans would be thrown out of office.

So today we have the more socialist than ever Democrats with their back firmly turned on reality, believing that they can bamboozle the voters and lenders forever, as they continue to lavish goodies for votes – goodies that are paid for with borrowed money that is even used to service the ever growing debt.  The whole game is based on new lenders forever lending more at ridiculously low interest rates, and old lenders continuing to cook their books, having long abandoned hope of recovering their principal.  To the collectivist, that is how the financing of governance works.

To support this ongoing fiasco requires the careful management of ‘information’ from the government and their corporate cronies.  For example, we are told that America is recovering from the Great Recession.  But by any real measures of the economy’s progress or comparisons to baseline amounts and rates, nothing could be further from the truth.  So the farce will continue until the lenders start demanding real interest for the risk of playing perpetual Ponzi with Uncle Sam.  When that happens the fiscal flywheel that has kept things going will simply disintegrate, spraying shrapnel into every corner of our economy.  Then as we gather in the streets with our pitchforks and torches, it will dawn on us why our police have been quietly militarized.

And no one in our fair land is prepared to do anything to break this vicious cycle of ever more debt to fund ever more spending to buy ever more votes to remain ever more in office.

When we look at the Republicans as the loyal opposition whose long voiced principles are supposed to be the great hope that pulls us back from the brink, we see sage heads shaking and advising that the GOP should help the Dems stay the course.  These ‘pragmatic’ pundits inhabit the full range of Republican politics, telling our candidates that it is better to forego principles and be re-elected, than remain principled and risk being defeated in the next election.  For after all, what can an unelected politician do to help the country right itself?

This Catch-22 is so firmly in place that even local county level advisors to our congressional representatives are not willing to discuss the ridiculous state of affairs in which we find ourselves.  In my talks with these folks, I simply run into a brick wall when making the case that what can’t go on forever, won’t.  Everyone on the Right agrees that what’s happening can’t go on forever, but they will not even consider advising our electeds to do anything that would prevent the train wreck.  I take that back.  These advisers and their elected Republican patrons concur that the country only needs a little magical pixie dust to bring back the Ozzie and Harriet world of the 1950s, and then the country will somehow be back on the yellow brick road to full employment, robust GDP growth, shrinking national debt, and an ever positive current account.

But the numbers say it ain’t gonna happen.

Posted in , , ,

103 responses to “A Libertarian Lovefest in Scottsdale (updated 26mar14)”

  1. Russ Steele Avatar

    George,
    In reference to your statement: “I did my best to make the case for growing systemic unemployment in these pre-Singularity years And to my pleasant surprise found these ideas to be received well with serious consideration if not downright acceptance. ‘
    This is a huge progression from last year, when this idea was not really accepted, if not rejected by the economic lights at Mercatus. I am pleasantly surprised and pleased by this change in understanding to the employment challenges ahead. That said, the solutions were not evident in the discussion this year, only recognition of the problem. There is still a long way to go for some reasonable solutions.

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  2. Bill Tozer Avatar
    Bill Tozer

    I too was struck my Dr. Rebane’s comment that Mr. Steele focused on. Bill Gates as well came out last week concerning systemic unemployment in these pre-Singularity years.
    A word to our youth: Say “screw the future” and the future will screw you in our ‘do your own thing’ live for the moment society. It is not going to be easy, guaranteed, or handed to you, but the road map is laid out. When walking through a mine field, it is wise and prudent to step in the footprints of those that made it through.
    The long term does not look like roll out the barrels, we going to go skipping down the Yellow Brick Road time. The globe is simply not prepared to enter the Singularity World. We enter it bankrupt, unskilled, unprepared, and the solutions proposed by the Reverend Jessie Jackson and ALL progressives only aggravate the problem each and every time. Their cures are worse than the illness.
    You don’t fix the caboose by weakening the engine.
    https://scontent-b.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash3/t1.0-9/1925344_10151983068245911_931967455_n.jpg
    https://scontent-b.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-prn1/t1.0-9/p417x417/1904219_10151926055210911_1526944546_n.png
    https://fbcdn-sphotos-d-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-prn1/t1.0-9/1526670_10151874565280911_166302027_n.jpg

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  3. Fuzz Avatar
    Fuzz

    Republicans/Conservatives/Libertarians always rail about “following the Constitution” and “personal freedom”. I’m an Independent and I love both those things too, but my question is always, “freedom to do what??” As history has shown, some of what you want “the freedom to do” has required the collective sentiment of the populace, expressed through government, to stop destruction, malevolence, ignorant planning, and societal disorder and breakdown. It still boggles my mind that America allowed slavery to continue as long as it did. Let me be clear, I want only “necessary” regulation, and not one law more. Deciding on “necessary” is the big debate. In practice, Republicans essentially want no regulation of anything (barring outright lying or theft) UNLESS it threatens their own bottom line. Then, its panic time and YOU (government) better do something about it! What’s going on with Tesla’s efforts to direct sell to customers is a perfect example. Those big conservative regulation-hating car dealerships are scared to death of Tesla’s direct sales model and (shock and horror) are using the government to try and stop it. Tesla isn’t simultaneously selling their cars through independent dealerships so why should those dealerships tell Tesla how to operate? They’re free market hypocrites and conservatives should be outraged. What’s next….forcing Apple to shut down it’s private stores and sell only through Walmart, Staples, and Best Buy? This is why people have become distrustful and skeptical of both government and the free market. Too bad we don’t have a grand Divine Referee to expose the motive and effect of everything in real time….it would save so much hassle. Until then, we try to “see the forest from the trees” and guide the good ole US of A as best we can.

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  4. fish Avatar
    fish

    Those big conservative regulation-hating car dealerships are scared to death of Tesla’s direct sales model and (shock and horror) are using the government to try and stop it. Tesla isn’t simultaneously selling their cars through independent dealerships so why should those dealerships tell Tesla how to operate? They’re free market hypocrites and conservatives should be outraged.
    I believe you are referring to the latest push back from auto dealers in New Jersey…..ahhh…. New Jersey hotbed of conservative thought and deed and home to the most unregulated markets in the US!
    Really…you’re not even trying very hard these days Fuzz!

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  5. Fuzz Avatar
    Fuzz

    Fish, add in Texas and Arizona, among others, and not everyone in NJ is a leftie. It’s the principle involved.

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  6. Paul Emery Avatar

    George
    Your “stepping stones to salvation” have about as much chance of being adopted as Cheney going to Heaven. It’s a wish list beyond all reasonable discussion. How do you propose gaining majority support for such proposals as ending social security and medicare which are extremely popular?

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  7. Gregory Avatar

    I think “replacing Obamacare” is the focus group tested slogan du jour. At one point in the past a Libertarian presidential nominee (Andre Marrou, I think) suggested abolishing the IRS and adopting the Federal budget of ~4 years earlier, which balanced the budget without IRS derived income.
    Paul, notwithstanding any existential debates of any gnostic consequence, Cheney has as much chance of getting an eternal reward as anyone posting here, including you. Give the Bush Derangement Syndrome a rest.

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  8. fish Avatar
    fish

    How do you propose gaining majority support for such proposals as ending social security and medicare which are extremely popular?
    I think George mentioned it at the end of the post….look carefully….carefully…..there it is: – America is bankrupt: Time to admit it.
    But be of good cheer Paul you will probably go to your grave without seeing it.

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  9. Bill Tozer Avatar
    Bill Tozer

    I hear what Fuzz is saying. Both sides pander to their constituencies. The Right and the Left, be it kowtowing to the Sierra Club or the biggest employer in your little district. That is why they got voted in and its the American Way. Bring home the bacon or stand in the unemployment line after the next election cycle. And on broader issues, many elected representatives vote their conscious on foreign affairs. The Matrix is not perfect.
    This electric car thing is a State by State issue. Puts dealerships at a disadvantage if the state requires them to sell cars through a brick and mortar showrooms, complete with awful bland designer paint on the walls. I am all for buying direct, but local municipalities like GV really, really miss all that sales tax revenue since the dealerships in town went south. I buy direct from wholesalers all the time. You might pay a bit more than what Amazon offers, but with no tax, I always come out ahead. 200 bucks on the nose means 200 buck and zero cents delivered to the destination of my choice. No 200 clams plus tax and shipping and handling.
    Fuzz, here is the flip side of the coin which puts a burr in my saddle. Seattle has gone looney left. Makes the Oakland City Council or the Berkeley City Council seem middle of the road by comparison.
    In Seattle people are using that new great app for finding ride share partners. But, the Seattle City Council says it has to be regulated and it is hurting the cabbies. Plus, they don’t get their cut. So, the lame brains come up with their plan. They are going to limit the riders that use the ride share app to 130 riders a day. Say what? How can they even know who is using the app, who is actually getting a ride, where they meet, etc. Free market is making the cabbies looking like the horse drawn buggy manufactures when Henry Ford came along.
    But, no. Even looney left Seattle…strike that….especially looney left Seattle is shaking down the free market to get their cut. That way they can continue to put up signs that tells the reader the term “brown bag” should not be used in local government workplaces cause it has racist roots. All that printing of the do’s and don’t’s in the workplace costs money so they are kowtowing to the cabbies. Even in Seattle. At least they banned the term Halloween cause it might offend Jehovah Witnesses. Who in the Sam Hill put those control freaks in charge?
    Cuts both ways. Money talks and BS walks. Both sides know how to get the ear of their representatives..

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  10. Russ Steele Avatar

    The facts can be hard to deal with my the left:
    Nearly half of all US jobs are threatened by robotics
    According to a study by University of Oxford researchers, nearly half of all US jobs could be lost to robots in the future.
    Researchers studying over 702 detailed occupation types to find how susceptible jobs are to computerization found that jobs in transportation, logistics and administrative support are at “high risk” of automation. The findings also revealed that even occupations in the service industry were highly susceptible to losing their positions to robotics.
    “We identified several key bottlenecks currently preventing occupations being automated,” Dr Michael A. Osborne, from the Department of Engineering Science at the University of Oxford, said in a statement. “As big data helps to overcome these obstacles, a great number of jobs will be put at risk.”
    According to the findings, about 47 percent of US employees are at risk from losing their jobs to computerization in the future. They also said they found evidence that wages and educational attainment exhibit a strong negative relationship with an occupation’s probability of computerization.
    “We note that this finding implies a discontinuity between the nineteenth, twentieth and the twenty-first century, in the impact of capital deepening on the relative demand for skilled labour,” the authors wrote.
    They said that while nineteenth century manufacturing technologies largely substituted for skilled labor through the simplification of tasks, the Computer Revolution of the twentieth century threatened middle-income jobs.
    The researchers said that this was the first study to look at how technological progress is going to change the future of employment.
    http://www.sott.net/article/276225-Nearly-half-of-all-US-jobs-are-threatened-by-robotics

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  11. Russ Steele Avatar

    Oops should read;
    The facts can be hard to deal with by the left:

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  12. Gregory Avatar

    Paul, regarding SS and Mediscare, they won’t be eliminated, but I don’t see any way around benefits being means tested, and the generations that follow the Boomers getting the Chile treatment, actually making retirement investments that actually have value besides the power to tax someone else’s money. Boomers in the US were forced to give their retirement savings to the so-called “greatest generation” and expect our checks to be written by Gen X, Y and Z as they go down the same road.
    One thing about Ponzi schemes is they can’t go on forever. Neither can SS or Medicare. In short, Paul, we’ll have to accept dying more readily than our parent’s generation and won’t be buying as many Winnebagos.

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  13. Paul Emery Avatar

    Of course Gregory, all systems need to make adjustments when necessary.

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  14. Fuzz Avatar
    Fuzz

    Bill, I agree with you completely on Seattle……that’s nuts!! How dare the City Council stick their nose into it. Lots of those ride sharers could be poor people and students, struggling to get by as it is, but that’s not the point. It’s none of the City Council’s business! There are probably vastly more people who would like to ride share than taxis could ever handle anyway. Makes you want to buy an island in Puget Sound and set up your own non-government……except we might end up with an adult version of Lord of the Flies 🙂

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  15. Bill Tozer Avatar
    Bill Tozer

    An island in the Puget Sound? First rule would be ‘no rules’! The second rule be no more ‘no rules’.

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  16. fish Avatar
    fish

    Of course Gregory, all systems need to make adjustments when necessary.
    Who just justified a selective default?

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  17. Walt Avatar

    ” Car dealerships”? Really?..?? Just WHO closed PLENTY on a whim, and hostile takeover of GM? Just which political party did “those” dealer owners belong to?
    Tesla got big bucks from the gov.,, and maybe those LIB backers are demanding Tesla “share the wealth” by employing “salesmen” to sit in high dollar showrooms where maybe someone will walk in once a week to window shop what they can never afford. Even at 60% taxpayer subsidized pricing, only the (evil) rich can afford the future carBQ .

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  18. Walt Avatar

    What is with Progressive Presidents? Is there some hidden rule they must “give away” a slice of the United States with every “Presidency”?? It really started with Carter. He gave away the Panama Canal. Clinton gave China our missile tech. Before he did that,, China couldn’t “deliver” a warhead across town, let alone across the globe. No “O” is “handing over” the Internet to God knows who.
    ( well,,, Gore said HE invented it,, so do LIBS actually have title to the digital landscape, and it’s theirs to do as they please?)
    The grand “redistribution” continues. One more reason never to elect a LIB again. Just what will be “given away” when the next ( God help us) version
    and renamed Progressive gets elected?

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  19. Gregory Avatar

    “Who just justified a selective default?”
    fish | 25 March 2014 at 09:22 AM
    What “selective default”? No SS or Mediscare recipient has any property right whatsoever to the monies they expect to receive, and the amount and timing of benefits have always been at the whim of the Congress.
    These aren’t bonds or deposits in a financial institution. You don’t have a pile of T-bills in your name that you get to redeem. It’s a handshake deal with the Congress and if you didn’t count your fingers after the handshake, that’s your bad.

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  20. fish Avatar
    fish

    These aren’t bonds or deposits in a financial institution. You don’t have a pile of T-bills in your name that you get to redeem. It’s a handshake deal with the Congress and if you didn’t count your fingers after the handshake, that’s your bad.
    But Greg….these programs are popular…or so I am reliably informed by commenters here…..they can’t just change them because they’ve been poorly managed and are actuarially infeasible!
    Did I mention they’re popular?

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  21. George Rebane Avatar

    And here I thought that SS was supposed to be a contract with the feds – you take my money and invest it as you will, and when I reach the contracted age, I will start getting checks that reflect what I paid into the system that you promised to prudently to manage for me. Now I know that Medicare was something different. I had no Medicare account, but only a Medicare deduction from my paycheck for which the feds promised to compensate me for some of my medical expenses as when and if their funds allowed. In short, one is a program of trust in which the feds have a fiduciary responsibility, and the other is an entitlement returned to me at the convenience and pleasure of the government.

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  22. Bill Tozer Avatar
    Bill Tozer

    The wish list of things to do to fix the broken machine all point to jobs one way or another. Its a wish list cause I do not see us touching the 3rd rails much besides doing what Senator Bob Dole when he was in the minority on one of those Presidential Blue Ribbon Commissions. Lost track of how many Blue Ribbon Commissions that have covered the same ground over the years. Tweak the Cola, tweak the contribution rates for people in some distant future. Nothing about the here and now. So in that sense I agree with Mr. Paul concerning fantasy land. Gold Standard?
    To be clear, I am not opposed to one single thing on the To Do List. Not one. Fixing higher education, Obamacare, The Debt, government’s nose in the job market (and everything under the Sun) along with the other items all point to fixing our economy which translates into jobs, jobs, jobs.
    Sometimes I see rays of hope in tackling our near worthless and counter productive public education system, but its mostly playing musical chairs on the Titanic.
    We have pasted the point of diminishing returns one or two decades ago, but hope burns eternal in my breast.
    Noticed our Federal Justice Department is investigating why so many kids of color (mostly black kids) are being suspended from grade school. Think it is like 71% of the suspensions, just about the same % as the out of wedlock birth rate in those areas. Hmmmm. Now the Justice Department wants to set a quota for school suspensions. They ain’t claiming the suspensions are unjustified or racist, merely pointing out that black kids are being disproportionally suspended, thus the result is racist. WTF!!
    Thank goodness my last little one changed her mind about becoming a fashion designer and now is fully embracing becoming a biologist. Is diving headfirst into it. She even dropped soccer to take on an additional “real” course. She quit her part time job so she can focus solely on academics and has this no nonsense attitude going on. Guess she does not want to work on the assembly line making baloney sandwiches after watching all her best friends for life drop out and now work at coffee bars. I will gladly cover her rent and expenses with that serious attitude. May not be a real STEM career, but it beats what I did with my life. Excuse me for bragging, just could not help myself. And to think we lived in a broken down car (with her sister) for months and people said you can’t get there from here. People say a lot of things.
    She has not asked me for a dollar since I paid her one month’s rent in January. That girl knows how to squeeze a dime and get nine cents change. If she can do it, anybody can. Math and Science are not her best subjects to put it most kindly, but we all can rise up beyond ourselves if we have courage, fortitude, and motivation.

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  23. Gregory Avatar

    “And here I thought that SS was supposed to be a contract with the feds – you take my money and invest it as you will, and when I reach the contracted age, I will start getting checks that reflect what I paid into the system that you promised to prudently to manage for me.”
    George, you’re joking, right? What were the investments that turned Ida May Fuller’s 25 bucks into $23K?
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ida_May_Fuller

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  24. Gregory Avatar

    George, tell me, regarding your lamenting of needing even more “STEM” H-1 visas, why is it that engineering is the only good or service where additional supply does not depress prices?
    I agree with Milton Friedman on this one; the H-1 program is a corporate subsidy that is about cutting the cost of engineering labor. It fosters the hiring of young foreign workers that are guaranteed to be more docile and cheaper than the average US born engineer.
    “Recent research by the Government Accounting Office (GAO) finds over half (54%) of all workers brought in through the H1B visa program are being paid at the lowest level.”
    http://smlr.rutgers.edu/modern-indentured-servants

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  25. Michael Anderson Avatar
    Michael Anderson

    Gregory, I smell a gored ox. I love the smell of gored oxen in the morning.

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  26. fish Avatar
    fish

    Gregory, I smell a gored ox. I love the smell of gored oxen in the morning.
    Posted by: Michael Anderson | 26 March 2014 at 08:55 AM

    Is this little gem going to go into your “art” project?
    (Elapsed comment time: 28 seconds)

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  27. Michael Anderson Avatar
    Michael Anderson

    Fish, the answer is yes. Thanks for asking.
    I also very much appreciate your new time-stamping procedure. This is probably what I love the most so far about the 21st century, there is just so much innovation and forward-thinking response to critical analysis that it makes my head spin.

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  28. George Rebane Avatar

    Gregory 819am – I’ve worked with foreign techies all my life. As I reached senior management levels in my companies, I hired foreign workers for many slots technical and non-technical. My experience has been the same as at other companies – the foreigners are more than happy to start out at lower pay levels while their skills are being vetted. But then the successful ones very quickly catch up in pay levels to their American counterparts. Most recent example was BizRate.com which had about a quarter of its workforce made up of foreigners. Our pay scales and actual wages did not discriminate on national origin, and no other dotcom I was aware of practiced such tiered compensations.

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  29. Gregory Avatar

    George, while I’ve no reason to doubt your experience, your small scale hiring isn’t what the huge tech firms are doing. 54% at the lowest level isn’t par.
    The question remains… do you think tech is magic, with supply and demand curves unaffected by pouring in young, inexperienced and cheap foreign “STEM” workers?
    Then there’s this gem:
    http://www.newrepublic.com/article/117088/silicons-valleys-brutal-ageism

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  30. Gregory Avatar

    Another bit: “Our pay scales and actual wages did not discriminate on national origin, and no other dotcom I was aware of practiced such tiered compensations.”
    You don’t have to “discriminate national origin” to have foreign engineers being paid less. They are overwhelmingly young, and filling entry level spots. IF the problems of big tech getting enough STEM worker bees are due to shortages, the pay would be soaring. It isn’t.
    Even fleabag mom and pop IT services companies can be affected, unless they operate on such a low level that they don’t even hire degreed IT help.

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  31. Gregory Avatar

    George, here’s another view, this time from IEEE Spectrum:
    “…these factors may help explain why only about half of those graduating with undergraduate STEM degrees actually work in the STEM-related fields after college, and after 10 years, only some eight percent still do. I should note that those with STEM degrees do seem to enjoy higher salaries than non-STEM degree co-workers in any field they so choose, which may be the best reason to get one.
    By the end of the conference it was pretty clear that the assumption that a major increase in STEM educational funding is absolutely required for the US to avert future economic decline is not well tested”

    http://spectrum.ieee.org/riskfactor/at-work/education/stem-education-in-the-us-is-more-or-less-needed

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  32. Michael Anderson Avatar
    Michael Anderson

    Greg, my experience in this arena is exactly as George describes. So basically, you’re wrong.
    Your attempt at lame defamation and slurs was very entertaining nonetheless, and I do very much like being inside of your brain, most of the time. I would like to tell you, however, that this time what I found up there were some rotting pumpkins, a couple of dead kittens, and a crying little boy who I tried to comfort until he bit me on the finger and tried to stab me with shards from a broken Romper Room mirror.
    You might want to get that checked out.

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  33. Gregory Avatar

    Mike Anderson, you have a business IT degree, have never worked as an engineer, and don’t have a clue as to what either George or I have done, or are doing. And besides mom and pop (both with the same b-school IT degree), the three young fellers you got there seem not to have anything besides a high school diploma. Not exactly high octane STEM, is it?
    Basically, all you have are your very limited experiences looking up where everyone was more technical than you and if you had anything valid and on topic to say you wouldn’t be inventing defamations to smear me.
    I’ve given several serious links to bolster my case but all you have is empty rhetoric. It’s a fairly simple case to make: STEM workers are unlike every other labor category in that more supply does not depress the price paid for that labor. Give it a try, assuming you actually took macroeconomics at some point and can grok the basics.
    Personally, I think the case that only 1 of 10 “STEM” degreed baccalaureates are working “STEM” ten years after graduation makes a joke of the crisis of “STEM” graduates.
    I’ve also worked with numerous foreign nationals, and even in the little Grass Valley advanced development office of THE major modem company we had several Chinese nationals, eastern Europeans and of course, some from the Indian subcontinent. I expect all with H-1 visas were paid just a little less than the rest of us despite being roughly equivalent… easy to justify by jiggering the job category and experience level and would lack prima facie evidence of discrimination. I also know of an Indian with an fresh US MSEE in a little GV company who was only paid $40K. Bright kid, got out of there as soon as he could, but he was tied down for a couple of years, part of the effective involuntary servitude of the visa.
    It’s a lot cheaper to double US “STEM” workers by doubling those retained in their originally chosen profession from 10% to 20% than it is to double the number getting “STEM” degrees in the first place.

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  34. Michael Anderson Avatar
    Michael Anderson

    Hey Greg, why do you continue to make claims about me and my company of which you know nothing about? Oh, I know why…because whenever I touch your little tar baby you feel the need to act like a three-year-old. How in the world does my claim you that you are wrong defame you? And just to be clear, I wasn’t saying that more engineers doesn’t drop the price for their labor. What I was saying is that you don’t appear to like having the competition. Big difference.
    The bigger question is why does George allow you to continuously slur and defame me and my business on this blog? The answer is that it serves his interests in some way. I’m not sure why just yet, but I do intend to find out.
    The biggest question of all is, why did I come back here and why don’t I know any better? I like hanging out with fish, Tozer, DM, and some of the other denizens of this joint, but the crank in the corner really makes the whole place completely unpalatable.
    Stick with the issues if you can Greg, and stop talking about my personal credentials and my business unless I talk about them first and put them in the public domain. You’re a sad little stalker tar baby, and George appreciates your repellent services for some odd reason. Weird.

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  35. fish Avatar
    fish

    This is great….like watching Voltaire and Rousseau go at it!
    (Elapsed comment time: 48 seconds – including checking the spelling of Jean-Jacques last name)

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  36. Todd Juvinall Avatar

    fish, you are sooo funny! I have to say tough that Michael Anderson is far outclassed by Gregory. Mr. Anderson was continuously posting a comment and then deleting it on my blog as a “message”. It was simply a childish act. Regarding his business, I recall Mr. Anderson posting his employee total was four including him. I built houses for thirty five years and had a few hundred employees over that time. Three is nothing.
    Greg has a keen mind and good writing skills and I can see why Mr. Anderson would be confused.

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  37. Michael Anderson Avatar
    Michael Anderson


    Your Italics Are Out at the Plate!

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  38. Russ Steele Avatar

    I have been wondering, why it is that some reasonably smart people waste so much time in pissing contests on this blog? It does not contribute to the discussion, it is boring and demonstrates a lack of courtesy for the other readers. Those desiring to engage in pissing contests need to start their own blogs, have a wonderful time pissing in the wind and stop boring the rest of us.
    Some one left off a “/i” and now every comment is in italics.

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  39. fish Avatar
    fish

    Some one left off a “/i” and now every comment is in italics.
    Probably me Russ! Trying for decent commenting times so Michael won’t be mad at me for unduly wasting the taxpayers dollar.
    Stupid typepad!

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  40. Michael Anderson Avatar
    Michael Anderson

    Fish, I stand corrected about my obviously mistaken assertion that you were wasting taxpayer dollars by posting comments here. I was wrong. I admit it. Reading the blogs as well, no harm-no foul there either. I promise not to bring it up again, as long as I can remember this promise.
    Russ, there is a double standard here at Rebane’s Ruminations that I am trying to understand. For example, why does George delete Todd’s comments when he slanders Paul Emery’s musicianship but leave up Greg’s slurs about what I do for a living? It’s a weird double standard that puzzles me. I think those of us with differing points of view would like to contribute to the discussion here, Russ, but not if we have to put up with Greg’s withering attacks every time we say boo.
    I’ll take my answer on the air.

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  41. Joe Koyote Avatar
    Joe Koyote

    “why it is that some reasonably smart people waste so much time in pissing contests on this blog? ” — I think it is called politics; ideological positions cast in concrete. It is the result of too much exposure to dimwitted pundits who make their money by starting pissing contests over mostly BS hot button topics that would have never gotten any traction otherwise. It is all part of the plan to divide and conquer. As long as people engage in petty bickering they will never come to realize that we are all in the same boat, just what the globalists want, people blindly defending corporate freedom for reasons they can’t really articulate because their really is no good reason to defend corporate greed in the first place. Over half of Congress are millionaires, are you? Do they really represent your interests whether you are a conservative or a liberal or progressive or a tea partier, or whatever?
    Speaking of globalists, what do folks think about TPP?

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  42. Walt Avatar

    Speaking of “pissing contests”,,, Seems Ca. elected LIBS are out to see how many felony charges they can rack up and get away with before they get caught.
    Even GUN RUNNING!!
    Lefty’s in power, sure have got ballsy about what they think they can get away with. Holder has done a great job of covering up and not prosecuting LIB miss deeds. ( as long as your at the FED level) Ca. Lefties thought the could ride the coat tails. What happened? Didn’t give enough to the DNC election bucket?
    Just maybe Holder and the boys will ride in and save the day.
    Seems the ATF has been working overtime in Ca. From illegal search and seizure, ( FEDS went judge shopping to obtain a warrant, that other judges refused to grant.)” 80% ” finished lower receivers or ” AR paperweights” . AND the customer lists. ( Registration leads to confiscation)
    Just maybe Holder will say Yee was working for him and “O” to “track weapons”.

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  43. Joe Koyote Avatar
    Joe Koyote

    Case in point.

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  44. Todd Juvinall Avatar

    So JoeK and Russ, how would you debate Putin? How about the midget from North Korea? You might get into some personal discussions? Or Hugo Chavez? How about Harry Reid? Harry did a bunch of real estate deals yet was able to get elected because the “press” did not do their due diligence because they were destroying Sharon Angle as a nut. You see, you will attack (not Russ) Sharon Angles and Christine O’Donnell personally then cry about the people on the right pointing out your hypocrisy. I love this stuff!! Of course I bet you said Clinton having sex in the Oval Office was no ones biz right?

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  45. Joe Koyote Avatar
    Joe Koyote

    Todd — case in point. What on earth are you talking about?

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  46. Walt Avatar

    Joe may want to look into Dirty Harry’s questionable asset “acquisitions”.
    Plenty of insider trading there.. How else could he be one of the richest LIBS on the hill? Now,, word is out of his questionable campaign donation “expenditures”..
    Just how did Harry get so rich on HIS salary, and coming from Searchlight “nowhere” Nev.?
    No wonder the LIBS on Capital Hill shot down the law of “insider trading rules”
    that would apply to them.

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  47. Todd Juvinall Avatar

    If you can’t figure it out then I guess you have no hope.

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  48. Walt Avatar

    Let’s have a LIB explanation for this..
    “One top advocate says President Barack Obama should invite previously deported people back into the United States, where they can compete for the low-wage jobs now being sought by low-skilled American natives and legal immigrants.”
    Seems the Libby BS of ” Americans just won’t DO those jobs.” isn’t holding water.
    Half of Americans are out of work, and or on food stamps. ( monkey with the employment figures like LIBS have, and things have looked “rosy”.. We are really at about 13% Unemployed.)
    Yaa…. Invite back illegals to vote LIB,, is what it boils down too.

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  49. Gregory Avatar

    “”why it is that some reasonably smart people waste so much time in pissing contests on this blog? ” — I think it is called politics; ideological positions cast in concrete. It is the result of too much exposure to dimwitted pundits who make their money by starting pissing contests over mostly BS hot button topics that would have never gotten any traction otherwise.” -Koyote
    Certainly there is a great deal of that from some of the more distressed. Here’s an example of some of mandersonation’s past rhetorical excesses from a decade ago:
    “The reason they [the children of the privileged liberal elite] will not join the U.S. Army is because there is the distinct possibility that they will get killed acting as an enforcer for the Bush Crime Family. The reason these children might join the Taliban is because of the confusion caused by most journalists — yourself [Debra Saunders] being a prime example — who refuse their Fourth Estate responsibility to expose high crimes and misdemeanors (not fornication) of thugocracies like we presently have in Washington D.C.”
    Regarding the Fornicator in Chief, I say go for it, just don’t lie about it under oath when being deposed for a lawsuit back in your home state, which is a high crime. Perjury, a felony. Clinton was disbarred for it once the impeachment proceedings ended, without getting the felony conviction; that he had earlier appointed the judge to their position might have had something to do with the disposition.
    Regarding Anderson’s complaint that he gets hit when he comes here, maybe he should stop throwing punches as he walks in the door, and if I misread his company web pages, that his three employees are not techs with no degrees (STEM or otherwise), he should let us know when he’s fixed his web info to reflect the current reality. If I seem to be dismissive of what he does for a living, that’s only in the context of “STEM”; system administration is the mud room of high tech. Software sanitation engineering. Very important, in that if something of a technician can’t be found to do it, an engineer will have to spend their time doing that as opposed to actually performing engineering tasks.
    Why do I even bring it up? Russ, this is for you: because Mike and friends paint me with words like Haldol and psychopathy, pure fabrications on their part, and pretend that those lies have nothing to do with my personal or professional life. George lets that happen here so I respond. The old TheUnion blog would delete pure personal attacks but such posts are welcome at RR, as long as it isn’t George being attacked and his patience runs thin; perhaps someday it will be a more general rule.

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  50. Todd Juvinall Avatar

    The reason things get personal is because the Frisch, Pelline, Emery’s and Manderson make it personal. I watched Bush take their crap for eight years and say he did not want to get into the weeds with them so they were able to pound him relentlessly with no blowback. I decided I would not do that so you get blowback from me and others here. If you attack our policies, fine, we will defend them. If you libs attack us personally, you get called out as the hypocrites you are. Michael Anderson represents the phony baloney policies of the libNation and then cries when those policies are debunked. Nothing personal from me or us when he puts forth his tripe on policy. But he has decided that he can’t beat me or Greg on the policies and so he gets personal. Same with Frisch and Pelline. They think they can call us stupid, fascists and extreme and think that is just fine. They are trying to define us to others. Well boys, you are going to have to take our blowback or leave. Simple as that. All is fair in politics and war and some say love. This is political war foisted on the country by these ungrateful buffoons of the left.

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