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George Rebane

The 26dec13 Union has a piece (here, paywalled?) about our Sheriff Keith Royal being listed among the country’s sheriffs who oppose broad attacks on Second Amendment rights.  I recently hosted an hour program on NCTV’s Breaking Bread with Sheriff Royal.  What he said on the air is consistent with what he told The Union.

Sheriff Royal’s main concern is that the mentally unstable and criminally disqualified persons should not have access to guns.  On the face of it, all reasonable people would agree with that statement per se.  The part of the discussion that becomes hard is the degree of risk we are willing to accept in disqualified people getting guns as a tradeoff to what extent should we weaken (legally or constructively) Second Amendment rights for the rest of the population.

If, as is often heard, when some silly says that we should accept no risk from crazies getting guns, then that means we effectively abrogate gun rights for everyone.  But no one wants to debate risk levels as a reasonable way to evaluate and guide public policy on the private ownership of firearms.  The gun controllers talk only about hunting and the narrow types of guns that this recreational activity entails.  Self defense, maintaining civic order, and the ability to oppose tyranny are deemed to be topics dear only to fringe ideologues and not worthy of further consideration.

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27 responses to “Sheriff Royal on Gun Control”

  1. Gregory Avatar

    Royal is quoted (in the paywalled story) saying “Criminals and persons with severe mental illness and/or substance abuse problems should not have access to firearms.”
    Make that violent and convicted criminals and persons who have been adjudicated, with counsel provided if they cannot afford it, to have severe mental illness or substance abuse problems to the point of being dangerous to themselves or others and I agree completely.
    The devil is always in the details.

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  2. Paul Emery Avatar

    So Gregory in your view Al Capone should have been legally able to carry firearms since he was convicted of tax evasion which is not a violent crime.

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  3. Gregory Avatar

    Paul, I think you’ll find he was legally able to carry firearms. Baseball bats, too.
    Do you think some Minister of Exceptions to the Bill of Rights should decide who is naughty and who is nice?

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  4. Paul Emery Avatar

    So Gregory your view is that the threshold would allow bank robbers and home invaders, for example, to carry firearms after being released from prison or freed on probation as long as they don’t have “severe mental illness or substance abuse problems”

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  5. Gregory Avatar

    Paul, you forgot to answer my question.
    Are bank robbery and home invasion violent crimes, and does going to prison for those crimes require a legal proceeding called a “trial”?

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  6. Paul Emery Avatar

    Perhaps I misunderstood you. The way you wrote it implied that violent criminals also needed also have mental illness or substance abuse problems. Please clarify.
    “adjudicated to have,,,,severe mental illness or substance abuse problems”
    If you diagrammed sentences in grammar school you will see what I mean.

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  7. Gregory Avatar

    You misunderstood me, Paul. Here’s my original statement with added hints:
    “Make that violent and convicted criminals [the preceding is the 1st category of persons forbidden firearms I refer to] and persons who have been adjudicated, with counsel provided if they cannot afford it, to have severe mental illness or substance abuse problems to the point of being dangerous to themselves or others [the preceding is the 2nd category of persons who should be forbidden firearms I refer to] and I agree completely.”

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  8. Paul Emery Avatar

    Got it Thanks

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  9. Gregory Avatar

    Paul, you’ve avoided the question: Do you think some Minister of Exceptions to the Bill of Rights should decide who is naughty and who is nice?
    In other words, should some bureaucrat, with or without medical credentials, be able to sign a declaration that forbids someone from keeping or acquiring a weapon they have a constitutional right to possess, or should that only happen by a legal proceeding, with due process, that finds them to be a danger to themselves or others?

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  10. Walt Avatar

    Paul. Do you ever read the police blotter? Heck! Just go to the local cop shop’s
    web site and see who got busted for what. Felons in possession of firearms
    is just about a daily given. These goons know full well they are NOT allowed
    to have them. But that doesn’t stop them one bit.( oh,, ya… the law against high capacity magazines really scares them too…LOL!)
    The law that mandated three year minimum sentences for use of a gun in crime was supposed to curtail the use. That worked out well,,, didn’t it?
    Then “waiting periods” That was all well and good when snail mail is how background checks were made. Now it’s supposed to be a “cooling off period” because someone may be POed when they made the choice to buy a gun.( to go out and shoot someone)
    All of that here in Ca. was to reduce gun violence. In the mean time, shootings in the big cities is alive and well on a nightly routine.
    Now they are nuisance laws for law abiding people to hurdle.
    Do tell when criminals start following gun laws, instead of gun laws making criminals out of honest citizens.
    Since heath care is now required BY LAW,, so should guns be mandated ownership, by every non criminal or certified lunatic. Too damn bad if you don’t want one “someone” needs to force that “right” upon you. ( just like healthcare.. remember? LIBS say it’s a right.) And of course, be qualified to use it. ( like a driver’s license.)
    How about that Paul? Just like the Swiss. Would that be EURO enough?
    ( Yes, the Swiss have laws about guns being kept in the home too.
    And fully automatic as well) That goes back to WWII, and is alive and well today, even though the German’s are no threat what so ever.
    Bad guys will always get their paws on them no matter how many laws are passed.

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  11. Joe Koyote Avatar
    Joe Koyote

    George – What do you mean by “maintaining civic order”? Give me an example of when private citizens would need to use guns/force to maintain civic order.

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  12. Walt Avatar

    I certainly have an answer to Joe’s question.
    Based on historical fact, Joe may want to read about the ” 601″ who
    were prevalent up and down the gold and silver towns. Yes, just every day citizens, who took matters into their own hands when “justice” wasn’t
    served to their satisfaction. All the other folks in town would wake up
    to the criminal swinging from a tree at the edge of town with a note pinned to the shirt that read
    “601”.

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  13. Paul Emery Avatar

    Gregory
    You already answered the question with your 3:40. In my view convicted felons should not be allowed to possess handguns for a prescribed period of time. Simple legislation can handle that. That’s my view.

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  14. John Avatar
    John

    Paul, convicted felons are already forbidden from possessing firearms, as are those convicted of domestic violence and numerous other crimes. The problem is poor enforcement of existing laws, and the tendency to ignore that issue in favor of calling for more laws to not enforce. Of the 100 million +/- gun owners in our country, only a very tiny percentage are irresponsible or criminal. As George as pointed out, the task is to focus on those, without punishing the rest of us.

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  15. Joe Koyote Avatar
    Joe Koyote

    Walt, do you mean vigilante type groups? Do you think that would really work today? Unless, of course, civilization as we know it breaks down to something resembling Mad Max. I read that in the SuperDome in New Orleans during hurricane Katrina there was chaos until the street gangs, made peace with each other, then become the law enforcement. Things settled right down very quickly and everybody got fed and clothed and a bed to sleep in, very little violence or crime.

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  16. Scott Obermuller Avatar

    Joe K – don’t know where you got your misinformation about the Superdome. I talked to a pastor who was on the scene. (FEMA chaplin) The black gangs were out of control openly stealing food and grabbing young women and hauling them off to the locker rooms and gang raping them. They had to bring in folks with guns to control the gangs. Then there was a modicum of peace.
    Looking at past shootings from Oswald to the kid in Colorado who wanted to shoot the debate coach and ended up murdering the poor student (with Joe Biden’s fav shootin’ stick, a shot gun) we see mainly left wingers and pure nut jobs. I think that folks that are obsessed with income inequality should be on the list of people barred from possessing fire arms.
    99.999% of all gun owners are no threat to citizens. But these are the very folks targeted by most all of the ‘common sense’ gun laws. The bad guys don’t seem to obey the laws and can always obtain weapons. It’s not a matter of being ‘for’ or ‘against’ gun control. That is a bogus question. The NRA helped to write gun control laws. It’s a matter of when the govt starts coming after law abiding citizens and eroding or doing away with their Constitutional rights.
    BTW – I notice that some politicians are now openly talking about seizing legal fire arms from law abiding citizens. Where are the lefty loons that declared that would never happen?

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  17. the internet Avatar
    the internet

    There’s no such thing as an ‘unconvicted’ felon. Enough already.

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  18. Ben Emery Avatar

    George,
    Could you post this, I would be very interested to see how many here reconcile their rhetoric with the reality.
    Thanks
    Ralph Nader Action Alert sent the piece out.
    Here are ten Questions for Tea Partiers that they want or do not want to answer. I say it this way because people who call themselves Tea Partiers do not have the same view of politics, government, Big Business or the Constitution. Their opinions range from pure Libertarian to actively furthering the privileges of plutocracy. Their income and occupational background vary as well, though most seem to be middle-income and up.
    My guess is that most Tea Partiers come from the conservative wing of the Republican Party who are fed up with both the corporate Republicans like Bush and Cheney, as well as the Democrats like Barack Obama and Nancy Pelosi.
    With the above in mind, the following questions can serve to go beyond abstractions and generalizations of indignation and get to some more specific responses.
    1. Can you be against Big Government and not press for reductions in the vast military budgets, fraught with bureaucratic and large contractors’ waste, fraud and abuse? Military spending now takes up half of the federal government’s operating budgets. The libertarian Cato Institute believes that to cut deficits, we have to also cut the defense budget.
    2. Can you believe in the free market and not condemn hundreds of billions of dollars of corporate welfare-bailouts, subsidies, handouts, and giveaways?
    3. Can you want to preserve the legitimate sovereignty of our country and not reject the trade agreements known as NAFTA and GATT (The World Trade Organization in Geneva, Switzerland) that scholars have described as the greatest surrender of local, state and national sovereignty in our history?
    4. Can you be for law and order and not support a bigger and faster crackdown on the corporate crime wave, that needs more prosecutors and larger enforcement budgets to stop the stealing of taxpayers and consumer dollars so widely reported in the Wall Street Journal and Business Week? Law enforcement officials estimate that for every dollar for prosecution, seventeen to twenty dollars are returned.
    5. Can you be against invasions of privacy by government and business without rejecting the provisions of the Patriot Act that leave you defenseless to constant unlawful snooping, appropriation of personal information and even search of your home without notification until 72 hours later?
    6. Can you be against regulation of serious medical malpractice (over 100,000 lives lost a year, according to a study by Harvard physicians), unsafe drugs that have serious side effects or cause the very injury/illness they were sold to prevent, motor vehicles with defective brakes, tires and throttles, contaminated food from China, Mexico and domestic processors?
    7. Can you keep calling for Freedom and yet tolerate control of your credit and other economic rights by hidden and arbitrary credit ratings and credit scores? What Freedom do you have when you have to sign industry-wide fine print one-sided “contracts” with your banks, insurance companies, car dealers, and credit card companies? Many of these contracts even block your Constitutional access to the courthouse.
    8. Can you be for a new, clean system of politics and elections and still accept the Republican and Democratic Two Party dictatorship that is propped up by complex state laws, frivolous litigation and harassment to exclude from the ballot third parties and independent candidates who want reform, accountability, and stronger voices for the voters?
    9. If you want a return to our Constitution—its principles of limited and separation of power and its emphasis on “We the People” in its preamble—can you still support Washington’s wars that have not been declared by Congress (Article I Section 8) or giving corporations equal rights with humans plus special privileges and immunities. The word “corporation” or “company” never appears in the Constitution. How can you support eminent domain powers given by governments to corporations over homeowners, or massive week-end bailouts by the Federal Reserve and Treasury Department of businesses, even reckless foreign banks, without receiving the authority and the appropriations from the Congress, as the Constitution requires?
    10. You want less taxation and lower deficits. How can you succeed unless you stop big corporations from escaping their fair share of taxes by manipulating foreign jurisdictions against our tax laws, for example, or by letting trillions of dollars of speculation on Wall Street go without any sales tax, while you pay six, seven or eight percent sales tax on the necessities you buy in stores?
    Let’s hear from you Tea Partiers. Meanwhile, see the work of video-journalist, Steve Ference, who has interviewed and given voice to those among you in his new paperback “Voices of the Tea Party” published by Lulu.com on July 4, 2010. Contact VoicesoftheTeaParty@gmail.com.

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  19. Joe Koyote Avatar
    Joe Koyote

    As usual there are different versions of what happened at the Superdome. According to New Orleans Police Superintendent Eddie Compass in a statement to the press there were “no confirmed reports of any type of sexual assault. We don’t have any substantiated rapes. We will investigate if they come forward. Many of the more toxic rumors seem to have come from evacuees, half-crazed with fear sitting through night after night in the dark.” The New Orleans Times-Picayune described inflated body counts, unverified “rapes,” and unconfirmed sniper attacks as among examples of “scores of myths about the dome and Convention Center treated as fact by evacuees, the media and even some of New Orleans’ top officials.”

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  20. Walt Avatar

    Joe.. I guess you missed public statements from top cops where crime is so rampant, those cops were begging people to buy guns to protect themselves, because their local depts. just couldn’t do it.
    I know of more than a few “low lifes” that could use a “visit” from a “vigilance committee”. Hang’n wasn’t the 601’s only method of “keeping things civil”.
    Good ol’ tar and feathers, and a rail were used as well. ( it kept the local politicians in line. I say bring it back!)
    Undesirables were “encouraged” to leave. What do we have today? They are “encouraged” to STAY!! I give you Nevada City as proof of that. ( Read about the boardwalk in the local rag today)
    I mentioned the history of this group a few years back when we had a good comment discussion ( OK,, arguments section) from the Union. Funny.. More than a few said they would welcome a return of a like group. As usual, only the pro thug crowd ( bleeding heart LIBS) gave me any static about it.

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  21. Bill Tozer Avatar
    Bill Tozer

    The average per capital medium income of the the Ward is $7,200/year. We give them food stamps, we give them welfare, what in the hell more do they want?? Houston realized straight away it was a major mistake to let the Ninth Wards folks in. Crime skyrocketed even with the free money and pre-paid debit cards we passed out to them. They trashed the Super Dome and everywhere they go.
    Yes, many homeowners lost their homes in the Ward, but they are soooo lazy and stupid they did not even bother to buy flood insurance. Then they want us to built them new homes on our dime not their dime, of course.
    Kinda hard to feel sorry for huge obese tubs of lard that had to go 8 hours between meals. Being FAT is the only difference between the 9th Ward and Haiti. Den of thieves. Those are the kind of people your mother warned you about. Takers not makers.
    Back to gun control, if you want mine you better bring yours, ass wipe.
    Exactly what about “Shall Not Be Infringed” is so hard to comprehend.
    https://scontent-b.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash4/1379324_10151677060025911_443945504_n.jpg

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  22. Walt Avatar

    Bill. You forgot to mention the GUN CONFISCATIONS that went on
    under LIB supervision. Then the waste of emergency resources for one
    high ranking Lefty to recover his “cold hard cash” of pilfered funds
    out of his freezer.( William J. Jefferson,,, a LIB)

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  23. Walt Avatar

    All that gun control has worked just fine in the big cities… Hasn’t it?
    Oakland is “gun free”,, yet gang shootings are an every night occurrence.
    Uh,, do I need to mention Chicago? I don’t believe cops even venture out at night around there.
    Remember the old saying? ” When guns are outlawed, only outlaws will have them.” Welcome to reality, brought to you by your local control freak Progressive.
    Then the issue of “bullet count”. The law abiding citizen is mandated to have NO MORE than 10 in a long gun, and even less in a hand gun. How many stories have we read where cops emptied their magazines, and still didn’t hit their mark. ( 14+ rounds each) OR they shot up the wrong car.( just because it was the same color as the suspect vehicle. The Jeff Dornan rampage) Now two innocent paper delivery women are scared for life.

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  24. Bonnie McGuire Avatar

    This discussion is so funny. A friend who lives in Louisiana once gloated that she and her husband never voted for Republicans because they are so corrupt. Following Katrina she hoped that Louisiana’s youth refugees who went to neighboring states would come back better people because of the good examples by their hosts. I’d noticed Louisiana had a high youth crime rate before Katrina that went down when the refugees went to places like Texas. The crime rate went up in those states with the new arrivals, and went down when they left, and the crime rate went up again with their return….all reported by the media. So I merely commented that it’s too bad parents don’t teach their children to be better people. This provoked my (so called) liberal friend to remind me not to be judgemental. It was hard not to laugh when I thought about those “corrupt” Republicans and what Katrina uncovered regarding Louisiana’s political corruption she probably voted for. With the obvious moral and economic decline there isn’t enough money for an army of policemen to protect us from criminals…and maybe them. Read the statistics regarding the millions of unarmed civilians killed by their governments. So common sense, and the second amendment is the answer. Look at Nature. The earth is a violent, survival of the fittest planet. All those of Natures world have some means to protect themselves from preditors.

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  25. Walt Avatar

    Get a load of these apples Joe. Here is your armed citizen at work.
    ( note the reason why, and they have the ECO LIB to thank for it.)
    http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2013/12/28/citizens-take-law-into-own-hands-after-cash-strapped-ore-county-guts-sheriff/

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  26. Videodrone Avatar
    Videodrone

    our sheriff over here in Mendo has also encouraged those who live in the more rural areas to arm themselves as well as grant CCW licenses to any who are legal and qualify

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