Rebane's Ruminations
November 2013
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George Rebane

For decades we have seen those yellow diamond shaped signs in the back windows of cars admonishing us to ‘Drive Carefully, Baby Aboard’.  Years ago as a young father, I puzzled over the first such sign that I spied.  Its message was clear, ‘this car is transporting a human whose life is worth more than that of the run-of-mill human life, therefore extra effort should be made to preserve it’.  I recall that a moment’s reflection made me say to myself, no it ain’t.  A couple of thoughts later I concluded that in the larger scheme of things that baby’s life is worth less than the run-of-mill lives we all encounter in the daily round, including our own.

ValueofLifeMost certainly that conclusion is true if we consider the baby’s ‘replacement value’ – you can make a new one in nine months – or its worth to society in the investment made, or the investment still required to civilize the little guy and educate him to productivity.

In my way of reasoning, I thought a more appropriate sign in the back window should read ‘Drive Carefully, A STEM Worker Aboard’, or ‘…, An Established Taxpayer Aboard’, or something similar.  It was clear to me that of all the other more demonstrably accomplished lives driving down a crowded freeway, the babies strapped into their car seats represented the least valuable expressions of humanity when viewed from the larger perspective of a community or society in general.


And from that greater vantage, societies have historically vindicated that valuation in how they have chosen to treat their young – depriving them of liberties and other social franchises, working them at the lowest compensation rates, and sending them to bear the brunt of battles.  After all, as a resource, in them we are least invested, they are still ignorant and malleable (willing to sacrifice themselves for glory), and their replacement cost is minimal.  (more here)

The received wisdom is that human life is precious beyond compense.  But that is patently false since daily we allow bureaucrats to exercise public policies in ways that allows any numerate person to compute the marginal dollar value we put on different kinds of lives.  For example, how many more miles of life-saving concrete center dividers could we have emplaced for the cost of highway landscaping or decorative sound walls?  We can compute the expected lives so saved, and attribute the cost of alternative spending across those lives to get a dollar worth of a life we are willing to expend in order to enjoy a more beautiful roadside.  And you haven’t seen anything yet until we sharpen our pencils to run some numbers on the decisions made in dispensing Obamacare.

Philosophers, sociologists, and other thinkers have considered the problem of the relative worth of human life within questions of social ethics and morality.  A popular category of thought problems in this endeavor is called ‘trolleyology’ of which there are now many variants that have been posed and debated.  The basic trolleyology problem involves a runaway trolley heading toward five unsuspecting workers on the track who will surely be killed if the trolley continues on its intended path.  But there is a possibility of diverting the trolley onto a side track on which is standing one unsuspecting hapless human.  The decision maker may be the trolley driver or someone on the sidelines who can switch the track.  What is the right thing to do in this case, let the trolley proceed to kill the five, or divert it to kill the one?

A much discussed version involves a very obese man standing by the track whose body can slow/stop the trolley if he is shoved into the trolley’s path.  What is the proper action for a bystander who can push the unsuspecting fat man, and sacrifice him to save the five?  How will/should society judge the person who then sacrificed that one to save many?

Such questions are not just idle thought experiments for the intellectually effete.  Their analogues are posed and answered every day, especially in the annals of healthcare, law enforcement, the military, and in our criminal and civil justice systems.

Is there a way to answer such questions that is better than the ad hoc, arbitrary, and haphazard way we now answer them?  Should we develop a ‘calculus of morality’ or adopt some formalism about computing the relative worth or rankings of human lives, e.g. the mortality and morbidity utility posed in ‘Healthcare Utility Metric (with scriptural underpinnings)’?  Some argue that this should not be done because that puts humans into the role of playing God.  But then, a moment’s thought shows that we constantly play an arbitrary God with people’s lives, and have done so throughout human history.

These questions are increasingly relevant as the world has become more populated, inter-connected, and relatively ignorant.  Of course, the easiest course forward is to forget the whole issue and just soldier on as we have been, using all the tools available from politics, cronyism, and corruption.

Posted in ,

98 responses to “Trolleyology and the Value of Human Lives”

  1. George Rebane Avatar

    stevenfrisch 456pm – my 304pm apology stands. The science you salute has been answered here and in more detail on cited websites. It is a matter of the widely understood and publicized debate between the subsidized globalists and the independent scientists. There is no profit here in resurrecting a circle jerk. In this neighborhood you shall ever be known as the avid proponent of AB32 and the opponent of Prop23, it is your indelible legacy built upon your understanding of and faith in the tenets of AGW. Perhaps you would care to add the advertised glories of Obamacare to that resume. In any event, let’s give it a rest.
    But I do invite your take on the subject of my post.

    Like

  2. stevenfrisch Avatar
    stevenfrisch

    I chose instead to take on the junk science that you and Todd are advancing that ‘liberals’ are killing ‘black babies’ by opposing DDT.
    All of the science points to the fact that DDT has diminished capacity to act as an insecticide against mosquitos; that other insecticides are more effective; that use of DDT in agricultural uses decreases its effectiveness as a disease control vector; and that in specialized cases where DDT IS USEUL it is not only allowed it is currently being used under the Stockholm Agreement.
    In addition, DDT has been proven to have serious health effects, including a propensity to bioaccumulate, is considered a likely cause of numerous cancers including cancers of the liver, pancreas and breast. There is mixed evidence that it contributes to leukemia, lymphoma and testicular cancer.
    Thus case that you are making is either a) unsupported by the science, or b) you choose not to use actual science to refute the claims.
    In short you are either taking it as an convenient article of faith in order to make a political point or ignorant.
    So you guys are lying to make a point. I call bullshit!

    Like

  3. George Rebane Avatar

    stevenfrisch 552pm – where have I “advanced” the case “that ‘liberals’ are killing ‘black babies’ by opposing DDT”? Making wild charges like that is your want, but it diminishes your credibility across the board.

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  4. Gerry Fedor Avatar
    Gerry Fedor

    I find it rather funny as Todd want to convince us all that the tax payers didn’t lose any money, when records show that he didn’t make any payments for 1 year which comes to @$20K, then the house in question was sold by the lender for @$200k less than what was owed, and the money that was spent by the lender carrying this loan for 4 years @$65,000….
    But no one lost any money? Is that your position my wise and just friend?
    Bhahahahaha!
    Thanks for the start to the holiday laughing season!

    Like

  5. Todd Juvinall Avatar
    Todd Juvinall

    I have no idea what you are talking about if you are talking about me MichaelA err.\, Gerry Fedor (an unknown person to boot) You are too funny!

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  6. Todd Juvinall Avatar
    Todd Juvinall

    You know I could be wrong but the only other person with the foreclosure fervor was Steve Enos. Is Gerry SteveE?

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  7. Ben Emery Avatar

    George,
    30 November 2013 at 06:04 PM
    My guess this is where Steve gets that idea. The context of the quote is we were talking about environmentalists opposing the use of DDT.
    “My own view is that the political advances made by the predominantly leftwing environmentalists to advance their own political agenda have far outweighed any consideration of saving human lives.”
    Here is my take, you guys have a tendency to view issues through a financial lens and limited to the direct issue at hand neglecting to see other negative or positive effects. We need to look at the long term effects to the entire region vs mosquito’s only. http://people.chem.duke.edu/~jds/cruise_chem/pest/effects.html

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  8. George Rebane Avatar

    BenE 627pm – fair enough Ben; recall that all social issues derive their importance in our lives from their numbers, nothing else. Even the most progressive of you regularly foment policies which argue that making life a little better for the many is worth misery for the few – breaking eggs for omelets and all that (e.g. the intellectual basis for Obamacare). If you want to look at “the long term effects to the entire region”, then we can formulate a utility function for that and see what policies may increase its value. And that discussion is guaranteed to be productive.

    Like

  9. fish Avatar
    fish

    I find it rather funny as Todd want to convince us all that the tax payers didn’t lose any money, when records show that he didn’t make any payments for 1 year which comes to @$20K, then the house in question was sold by the lender for @$200k less than what was owed, and the money that was spent by the lender carrying this loan for 4 years @$65,000….
    But no one lost any money? Is that your position my wise and just friend?
    Bhahahahaha!
    Thanks for the start to the holiday laughing season!
    Posted by: Gerry Fedor | 30 November 2013 at 06:10 PM

    Who cares if the taxpayers lost money….. all the taxpayers do is lose money. Standard property contract language…..you don’t make the payments you lose the property. FedGov intervened….how is that Todd’s problem?

    Like

  10. Ben Emery Avatar

    George,
    Lets define what you mean by social issues.

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  11. fish Avatar
    fish

    Let’s define what you mean by social issues
    RELEASE THE PEDANT………..!!!!!

    Like

  12. George Rebane Avatar

    BenE 735pm – Given Mr fish’s 742pm induced laughter, I find it hard to concentrate. Since I’ve never encountered such a remarkable question, especially from one who talks of nothing but social issues, let’s accept your definition of ‘social issues’ and go from there.

    Like

  13. Bill Tozer Avatar
    Bill Tozer

    Great post Dr. Rebane. Some got their undies way up their plumber’s crack because of drones hitting civilians. Heaven forbid! But the point is the readers, all readers of this blog, do not condone drones making mince meat out of civilians. Why? Because we hold life as sacred and precious, even if our adversaries in other countries do not hold to the same beliefs.
    BF Skinner may have put his kid in the Skinner Box, put we would all be jailed if we tried that at home.
    The value of life is what value one places on it. I remember when one of the girls dragged around an large white new Teddy Bear for months as a little toddler.. That bear became tattered, filthy, stained, dirty, ripped, torn and falling apart as she dragged it inside and out. That teddy bear made be considered worthless or worth its weight in trash, but that Teddy Bear was invaluable to her. Why? Because the value she gave it. So is the value of a human life. Who places what value on what human?
    I am always amazed that Israel will exchange a hundred of even two hundred Palestine suicide bombers and terrorists and murdering law breakers just to get ONE solitary Israeli soldier or one kidnapped civilian back. 100 of ours for one of theirs is the value the Palestinians place on life. Conversely, 1 of ours for 100 of theirs is the value the Israelis place on a single Israeli life.
    Safe to say my Momma placed more value on my life than any of our liberal pro-death friends do, as well it should be.

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  14. Ben Emery Avatar

    George,
    I get the feeling when we speak of social issues we are speaking very different things.
    A general definition
    Social issue/ program is when a service is provided so all citizens have a basic level of standard of living, generally to the poor.

    Like

  15. Ben Emery Avatar

    Not dying from Malaria I would call a basic level of living.
    Also we know community food comes from many different sources. The problem with insecticides is much like bombs it doesn’t discriminate. Here is a personal example. In 2012 we had a major cucumber beetle problem, we were told to use Diatomaceous Earth (DE). DE attacks the exoskeleton/ chitin and makes it so those insects dehydrate and die in the most basic explanation. Bees need lots of hydration and fall into the category of what DE will kill or get rid of. So for the short run my plants survive and I will get them pollinated for a season but if everybody in the region used DE to get rid of the beetle problem the bees unless imported will not be around the next year to participate in our symbiotic relationship because we killed them off or killed enough of them they moved to a different region.

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  16. George Rebane Avatar

    BenE 736am – I make no exception in accepting the general definition of a social issue. (According to the modern mangling of English semantics, an ‘issue’ used to known as and called a ‘problem’) A social issue is a problem that impacts a sizable proportion of some defined population – be it of a country, state, county, city, affinity group, … – so that it requires some resources to fix or alleviate it. These resources may be private or held collectively, and they may be applied individually in an ad hoc manner or through an established program of a collective. And finally, the problem’s solution may sought voluntarily or through a state mandate.
    Your definition is very narrow and specifically prescriptive, but it does illustrate the scope of your thinking and sheds light on your arguments. For example, preventing the spread of the H1N5 virus through a pandemic is a social issue, and so is adopting a uniform K-12 curriculum throughout the land.

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  17. fish Avatar
    fish

    Social issue/ program is when a service is provided so all citizens have a basic level of standard of living, generally to the poor.
    Yes…Johnsons “Great Society” has worked wonders for the poor. It’s made so many more of them!
    Dare I post a link….oh noes!!
    http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2013-11-30/other-america-taxpayers-are-fools-working-stupid

    Like

  18. Ben Emery Avatar

    George,
    I thought we were using my definition? I don’t like to think of human beings who lack financial security as problems. Your examples fit into my definition. K-12 curriculum is a basic level of education we want all citizens to complete.
    Fish,
    Great Society policies cut poverty in half until the programs were drastically altered or reduced.

    Like

  19. fish Avatar
    fish

    Great Society policies cut poverty in half until the programs were drastically altered or reduced.
    Entitlement spending by governments in the United States has grown from 0.4 percent GDP in 1900 to 19 percent of GDP in 2010.
    To the bone Ben….cut right to the bone!

    Like

  20. Ben Emery Avatar

    Fish,
    Since the 70’s our trade policies and tax policies have diminished the ability for average workers to earn a living while the core expenditures (mortgage, health care, education for the average American has spiked. Productivity is at all time high while income levels remain at late 1970’s levels. So how did America for the last 3 decades keep up with rising costs while wages remained stagnant, credit. Federal Reserve since Greenspan have made private and public credit extremely easy to get but that 8 lane freeway of money has been reduced down to a two lane road because private and public debts are at all time highs.
    No more credit so social programs have increased as more Americans can no longer afford to live at the basic standard of living we have set for ourselves. I personally think that standard of living is wasteful and unsustainable but our entire corrupt government runs on the idea of GDP and perpetual growth. So we continue to pushed towards throw away or materialistic society to keep private sector growth up. It is a liberal way of dealing with a dysfunctional corrupt system. Keep big business profits up by subsidizing them with low income health care, food stamps, and section 8 policies. The conservative way would make the system much less dysfunctional but much more brutal and fascistic. Instead the US currently has a hybrid system that creates the worst parts of both corporatism and socialism.
    Reagan was the first full administrations under our new supply side policies and those administrations tripled our nation debt and every administration has followed since. Nixon/ Reagan are when the D’s and R’s became the same war mongering parties. Clinton exited on the dot com bubble so his administration numbers look better but they actually solidified the policies that plague us today. It is when the D’s and R’s became economically/ financially the same party.

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  21. fish Avatar
    fish

    The legendary…. Ben Emery…Immolator of entire platoons of Strawmen!
    So was this a response to failed Great Society programs or have we moved on to your beef (perhaps the only area in which we agree) with central banking and credit vs. income substitution? You find so much distasteful about this country that your responses tend to be all over the map.

    Like

  22. Ben Emery Avatar

    Fish,
    My disgust and disappointment in how our government is being run for my entire life is immeasurable. The people and country aren’t the problem it is who our government represents is the problem. The D’s and R’s represent big business interests, which is less than 10% of the nation population interests. Then the duopoly implements programs to substitute for the very interests that got bribed away with the deal with the special interests. It is not all over the map. It effects literally every major issue we have today so it encompasses a large chunk of our government and society we have today.
    The nations that are dealing with the new globalization model best are the Nordic nations. How sustainable they are who knows only time will tell.

    Like

  23. George Rebane Avatar

    BenE 920am – It matters little whether we like to think of social issues more accurately as problems or not. They most certainly are a problem for those who have monies taken from them by force to solve/alleviate another’s problem (or issue).

    Like

  24. Ben Emery Avatar

    George,
    Do you believe that you live in a community or as an individual? That is the key question between the Great Divide. When a system is set up to benefit a small few over the masses than who is actually taken monies from who?

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  25. Todd Juvinall Avatar

    We are individuals who live in a community. We all live by self interest and many of us help others in need when that arises. You want to use the force of arms to relieve us of our property and then give it to others.
    The compact we all have for our community/state/USA is the Constitution. That is the cement that keeps us all sane.

    Like

  26. fish Avatar
    fish

    My disgust and disappointment in how our government is being run for my entire life is immeasurable. The people and country aren’t the problem it is who our government represents is the problem. The D’s and R’s represent big business interests, which is less than 10% of the nation population interests. Then the duopoly implements programs to substitute for the very interests that got bribed away with the deal with the special interests. It is not all over the map. It effects literally every major issue we have today so it encompasses a large chunk of our government and society we have today.
    Answered just like a man running for office.
    During my time here I’ve come to the conclusion that members of the Emery line are genetically incapable of answering direct questions.
    The following are a few, to my best recollection, of direct questions posed to members of the Emery family who participate in discussions here:
    Paul: “What do you think is an adequate level of taxation”?
    Response: Crickets
    Ben: “What do you propose, if elected to congress, to alleviate some of the problems you see with this country”?
    Response: Crickets (I should qualify this by saying that you did admit that shoehorning the whole of the citizenry onto Medicare was just ducky…although I can’t honestly recall if we were even discussing medical care…I think you were making just another stump speech.)
    Ben: “What makes you think that you would be any more successful than any of the other ‘reformers’ if elected to congress”?
    Response: Crickets
    and so on….
    You make speeches and you emote…..this country already has this….in spades!

    Like

  27. Ben Emery Avatar

    Fish,
    Since I pop in and out of RR I don’t go searching for your questions.
    Question 1- it means the people are willing to change the status quo and as single representative very little will change. The fact that the people chose to go outside of the two parties shows a paradigm shift.
    Question 2- I hate and I mean hate anybody who think they can buy me off whether it be at a job that treats people like crap, exploits the environment, or making legislation that would benefit a small few over the many.
    Does that answer your questions.
    I have dozens of solutions but they go against the status quo and would take a massive movement and the removal of the current leadership in both D’s and R’s.
    I believe the Tea Party and real progressives anger is justifiable and healthy for our nation. Only those with passion will ever create change. The old wealthy/ powerful will always want to suppress and oppress this change so it is always a huge fight.

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  28. Ben Emery Avatar

    as for adequate tax levels here is a starter. I just got done with my homework and need to get to work so you are on your own for deciphering the proposal.
    From Robert Reich “The Obama Budget”
    http://robertreich.org/post/3277360050
    The most direct way to get more money into their pockets is to expand the Earned Income Tax Credit (a wage subsidy) all the way up through people earning $50,000, and reduce their income taxes to zero. Taxes on incomes between $50,000 and $90,000 should be cut to 10 percent; between $90,000 and $150,000 to 20 percent; between $150,000 and $250,000 to 30 percent.
    And exempt the first $20,000 of income from payroll taxes.
    Make up the revenues by increasing taxes on incomes between $250,000 to $500,000 to 40 percent; between $500,000 and $5 million, to 50 percent; between $5 million and $15 million, to 60 percent; and anything over $15 million, to 70 percent.
    And raise the ceiling on the portion of income subject to payroll taxes to $500,000.
    It’s called progressive taxation.

    Like

  29. program pit 2013 Avatar

    Everything said was very logical. But, think about this, suppose you composed a catchier post title? I ain’t suggesting your content is not good, however what if you added a title that makes people desire more? I mean Trolleyology and the Value of Human Lives – Rebane’s Ruminations is kinda boring. You should peek at Yahoo’s front page and watch how they create post headlines to get people to open the links. You might add a video or a picture or two to get people excited about everything’ve got to say. In my opinion, it could make your blog a little livelier.|

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  30. George Rebane Avatar

    BenE 1206pm – re living in communities, I’ll go with ToddJ’s 1142am. And that “question” has NOTHING to do with the notion of the Great Divide.
    In the event that this is news to you (and yours) the vast amount and fraction of the taken monies are taken from the top three quintiles, because, a la Willie Sutton, that is where the money is. To boot, socialism screws the middle class, always has, always will. And take a look at the proportion of taxes paid by top quintile relative to the proportion of income they receive.
    http://rebaneruminations.typepad.com/rebanes_ruminations/2012/07/tax-rates-fair-enough-already.html
    Thank you for sharing your progressive tax rate schedule with us. That was an appreciated and understood direct answer.

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  31. fish Avatar
    fish

    Well it’s a start!
    The Obama Budget: And Why the Coming Debate Over Spending Cuts Has Nothing to Do With Reviving the Economy
    SUNDAY, FEBRUARY 13, 2011
    President Obama has chosen to fight fire with gasoline.
    Government is too big! That Reich can’t recognize it isn’t my problem. Other equally well known economists who aren’t as wedded to the political as Reich know and admit to it. Do you mean to tell me that Reich can’t identify anything that FedGov does poorly or shouldn’t do at all? Even you and Paul think that cutting the military is an area where we could find potential savings…Reich can’t even entertain that. You would think that such an esteemed economist might take a run at the Federal Mohair Subsidy….anything…just to throw me a bone….I guess not.
    Today (Monday) Obama pours gas on the Republican flame by proposing a 2012 federal budget that cuts the federal deficit by $1.1 trillion over 10 years. About $400 billion of this will come from a five-year freeze on non-security discretionary spending – including all sorts of programs for poor and working-class Americans, such as heating assistance to low-income people and community-service block grants. Most of the rest from additional spending cuts, such as grants to states for water treatment plants and other environmental projects and higher interest charges on federal loans to graduate students.
    “All sorts of programs for poor and working-class Americans”…..A list would be good Bob….things that Mr. Ivory Tower thinks are vital probably aren’t. I keep coming back to to Obamaphones…shit Ben do the downtrodden need eight? You guys won’t even police the programs in existence until they wind up embarrassing you when the fraud is revealed.
    If TEAM Progressive would spend fewer tax dollars buying off poltical donors with the various Solyndras and Fiskers there might be more money for programs for the poor.
    That means the Great Debate starting this week will be set by Republicans: Does Obama cut enough spending? How much more will he have cut in order to appease Republicans? If they don’t get the spending cuts they want, will Tea-Party Republicans demand a shut-down?
    Tough shit little man! It’s politics….your team is putting in a pretty poor showing against mediocre opponents. John Boehner…please!
    Framed this way, the debate invites deficit hawks on both sides of the aisle to criticize Democrats and Republicans alike for failing to take on Social Security and Medicare entitlements. Expect Erskine Bowles and Alan Simpson, co-chairs of Obama’s deficit commission, to say the President needs to do more. Expect Alice Rivlin and Paul Ryan, respectively former Clinton hawk and current Republican budget hawk, to tout their plan for chopping Medicare.
    It’s the wrong debate about the wrong thing at the wrong time.

    Why is it the wrong debate…the whole point of Obamacare was to cost shift from the young to the old, from the non-voters to the reliable voters…..fucking over medicare recipients had to be part of the plan too! Why don’t the baby boomers have any skin in the game?
    Social Security might have a slim chance of survival….Medicare is toast….unless Reich has a spare 150 trillion lying around somewhere.
    To official Washington it seems like 1995 all over again, when Bill Clinton and Newt Gingrich played a game of chicken over cutting the budget deficit, the hawks warned about the perils of giant deficits, and the 1996 general election loomed over all. Washington politicians and the media know this playbook by heart, so it’s natural for them to take on the same roles, make the same arguments, and build up to the same showdown over a government shutdown and a climactic presidential election.
    Cited without evidence. More politics Bob….I thought this was economics?
    But the 1995 playbook is irrelevant. In 1995 the economy was roaring back to life. The recession of 1991 had been caused (as are most recessions) by the Fed raising interest rates too high to ward off inflation. So reversing course was relatively simple. Alan Greenspan and the Fed cut interest rates.
    Which caused billions of Bubble Bucks to flow into the dot.com boom which……shocker…..ended in tears too.
    In 2011 most Americans are still in the throes of the Great Recession, which was caused by the bursting of a giant debt bubble. The Fed can’t reverse course by cutting interest rates; rates have been near zero for two years.
    That’s right you can’t force people to take on additional debt when they are trying to do the right thing by repairing their personal balance sheets. There is no incentive to take on additional debt when financial positions are so tenuous….and what will FedGov do to improve any of this…… continue to tighten the regulatory screws and impose additional costs (Obamacare anyone…??). Why roll the dice and try and start new a business in this environment?
    Big American companies are sitting on almost $2 trillion of cash because there aren’t enough customers to buy additional goods and services. The only people with money are the richest 10 percent whose stock portfolios have been roaring back to life, but their spending isn’t enough to spur much additional hiring.
    Yeah…and Little Bobby will never catch them. They have the means to fight back…they employ sophisticated tax strategies, they have attorneys, they move money where President Hollow Chocolate Bunny and his minions can’t wrap their gasping bony little fingers around it. Even when you pin them down they can keep entire IRS sections busy for years…waiting for more favorable political winds. You admit as much in many of your posts….“the corporations…they’re just too powerful”!
    The Republican bromide – cut federal spending – is precisely the wrong response to this ongoing crisis, which is more analogous to the Great Depression than to any recent recession. Herbert Hoover responded the same way between 1929 and 1932. Insufficient spending only deepened the Great Depression.
    “Insufficient spending only deepened the Great Depression”…again presented without evidence. Historically the downturns where the government just got out of the way and let the market clear all the mistakes we’re sharper but far briefer episodes. Reichs default impulse towards messianic government doesn’t permit him to do nothing…..and they’ll fuck it up….and fuck it up but good, just like they’re doing now….but it’s okay because all that matters is their good intentions.
    The best way to revive the economy is not to cut the federal deficit right now. It’s to put more money into the pockets of average working families. Not until they start spending again big time will companies begin to hire again big time.
    Then why not cut…..really cut taxes…..like to zero?? Not the half measure that he proposes! It doesn’t need to be forever and will let people know that they had better do it soon because it won’t last forever. Let them raid their 401(k) accounts to put their personal balance sheets back in order. FedGov desperately needs to spur inflation so they can shaft their bondholders and reduce debt carrying costs…..if you want to gin up inflation this will work.
    Of course they’ll never do it..you can’t have the rabble ever thinking that radically reduced taxation is a good thing!
    Reich wants to flog the EITC…..good luck with that!
    Don’t cut the government services they rely on – college loans, home heating oil, community services, and the rest. State and local budget cuts are already causing enough pain.
    FedGov has no business in the college loan business….you want to lower college costs….let a few schools go belly up and you’ll see price competition in a hurry. Reich can’t even see that the whole college delivery method is changing and that what he really wants is to preserve a failing business model.
    “Community services, and the rest”…again this is a convenient method for not addressing areas where cuts could likely be made….just say “community Services and imply that it’s vital and hope the reader looks the other way! Reich refuses to think that America can do without a single program. He simply isn’t serious about addressing the problem!
    The most direct way to get more money into their pockets is to expand the Earned Income Tax Credit (a wage subsidy) all the way up through people earning $50,000, and reduce their income taxes to zero. Taxes on incomes between $50,000 and $90,000 should be cut to 10 percent; between $90,000 and $150,000 to 20 percent; between $150,000 and $250,000 to 30 percent.
    And exempt the first $20,000 of income from payroll taxes.

    This is the only area in which Reich flirts with reality……this would get money moving….but without reducing spending the increased debt loading is going to kill the US on the back side. It would show the already screwed bondholders that the US has absolutely no intention of ever putting its financial house in order. I wonder how much credibility we’ll have when the only bond buyer is the Federal Reseve>
    Make up the revenues by increasing taxes on incomes between $250,000 to $500,000 to 40 percent; between $500,000 and $5 million, to 50 percent; between $5 million and $15 million, to 60 percent; and anything over $15 million, to 70 percent.
    And raise the ceiling on the portion of income subject to payroll taxes to $500,000.
    It’s called progressive taxation.

    Reich will take money from the first group directly out of the economy! This group really isn’t rich so you will simply substitute government spending for their spending…no net gain.
    On the lower end of this group Reich will take money from them and simply transfer the spending to the government. This group at the higher end of the range will make changes to minimize the impact…they aren’t going to passively sit there while Reich steals them blind. You’ll get some but not nearly enough. Almost no net gain.
    The next two groups will simply use the tax strategies that small business and members of congress use to stay out of the clutches of policies of their own making. Reich won’t be able to get them.
    The lion’s share of America’s income and wealth is at the top. Taxing the very rich won’t hurt the economy. They spend a much smaller portion of their incomes than everyone else.
    Sure – take some steps to cut federal spending over the longer term. Cut the bloated defense budget. Tame the growth in healthcare costs by allowing the federal government to use its bargaining clout — as the nation’s biggest purchaser of drugs and hospital services under Medicare and Medicaid and the Veterans Administration – to get low prices. While we’re at it, cut agricultural subsidies.

    Wow…at the very end a sop to spending discipline. Ben in Little Robbie Reichs world the longer term never comes….if they get the economy moving evryone will start to feel better about things and the pressure to address these issues will go away….it always works like this! Every politician takes a victory lap and sound policy is forgotten!
    But don’t believe for a moment that federal spending cuts anytime soon will get the economy growing soon. They’ll have the opposite effect because they’ll reduce total demand.
    The progressive tax system I’ve outlined will get the economy growing again. This, in turn, will bring down the ratio of the debt as a proportion of the total economy — the only yardstick of fiscal prudence that counts.
    But we can’t get to this point – or even to have a debate about it – if Obama allows Republicans to frame the debate as how much federal spending can be cut and how to shrink the deficit.
    The President has to reframe the debate around the necessity of average families having enough to spend to get the economy moving again. He needs to remind America this is not 1995 but 2011 — and we’re still in a jobs crisis brought on by the bursting of a giant debt bubble and the implosion of total demand.

    And we close with more Keynesian bilge at the end!
    Well it’s an answer Ben…somebody elses but an answer nonetheless…I think we’ve really made a breakthrough with that instinct towards question avoidance Ben!

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  32. fish Avatar
    fish

    This dropped in while I was fisking Little Bobby Reichs latest offering!
    Fish,
    Since I pop in and out of RR I don’t go searching for your questions.
    Question 1- it means the people are willing to change the status quo and as single representative very little will change. The fact that the people chose to go outside of the two parties shows a paradigm shift.
    Question 2- I hate and I mean hate anybody who think they can buy me off whether it be at a job that treats people like crap, exploits the environment, or making legislation that would benefit a small few over the many.
    Does that answer your questions.
    I have dozens of solutions but they go against the status quo and would take a massive movement and the removal of the current leadership in both D’s and R’s.
    I believe the Tea Party and real progressives anger is justifiable and healthy for our nation. Only those with passion will ever create change. The old wealthy/ powerful will always want to suppress and oppress this change so it is always a huge fight.

    Not really! I suppose it’s all I’m likely to get so it’ll have to do!
    In the short term then….I mean until what is existence politically now collapses utterly…you are running on the “Skittle Shitting Unicorn Platform”! Let me know how that works out for you….and for all of us!
    Paradigm shift….? You need to return Frisches political catch phrase thesaurus……paradigm shift….(snicker).
    (George…the italics feature is hung up again)

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  33. George Rebane Avatar

    fish 231pm – you really have to check your HTML delimiters when you use intermittent italics Mr fish. In this case you delimited the “… cut agricultural subsidies” in your 220pm novelette with a <,/,> , i.e. no lower case ‘i’ included (I fixed it). I’ve been cleaning up after you (and others) on this problem for years. To be frank, I’m kinda tired of it.

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  34. fish Avatar
    fish

    My apologies George. I try to keep them properly paired but I use a ton and frequently overlook one or two.

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  35. George Rebane Avatar

    program pit 2013 1248pm – thanks for the recommendations. But as it is, RR is about as or more lively (unique viewers, page loads, and comments) than I can handle. I do have another life or two besides this blog, although I am very grateful for my readership – its ideological diversity, general intellectual level, and size. I neither claim nor want to write for the masses, the bar here is set just about right. Looking forward to your topical comments.

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  36. Gerry Fedor Avatar
    Gerry Fedor

    Fish, I have to wonder if you don’t care about Todd wasting @$300K in federal bailout TARP money then you should be good with a number of other issues such as letting illegals being here, and about wasting money on a number of other issues problematic issues.
    The point here is to not try to tell us about the problems of the US, when people like Todd are the problem!
    They say one thing but when the rubber hits the road they’ll do whatever it takes to protect themselves even if it’s not what the spout about the causes of the problems in this country.
    Todd needs to “man up” and pay back his losses before we even think about listening to what a hypocrite says! That means he should take money from his retirement, sell his house, or do whatever it takes, or he needs to STFU about the problems in this country that are caused by people like him!

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  37. Todd Juvinall Avatar

    Methinks Gerry Fedor is really MichaelA. George, can you check this numbnuts email?
    For some reason hs fairy tales about me seem familiar.

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  38. fish Avatar
    fish

    Again Gerry….and I’ll type slowly so you get this….a contract for property is fairly simple. A person applies to borrow money, the bank lends them this money if they are deemed to be a worthy credit risk. If they fail to satisfy the language of the contract the bank takes possession of the property. The borrower typically takes a pretty significant hit to their credit.
    The fact that FedGov opted to save their favored banks by enacting TARP is hardly Mr. Juvinalls concern!
    You keep swinging for the fences though swinger…I’m sure you’ll run into one one of these days.

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  39. George Rebane Avatar

    GerryF 620pm – I echo Mr fish’s 708pm. To my knowledge ToddJ lived up to the terms of his loan agreement. If everyone who has recently had a foreclosure or had to surrender his loan collateral has his First Amendment rights restricted as you prescribe, then a good portion of the country would have to fall silent. We do wonder what is your point in this pursuit?

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  40. Todd Juvinall Avatar

    He is a sock puppet as far as I can see. He is not findable and I have no idea who he is. Sounds like he is having a personal problem..Maybe I dated his GF in high school. LOL!

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  41. Bill Tozer Avatar
    Bill Tozer

    Heck Mr. Fedor, lets go all the way and bring back Debtors’ Prison. And don’t get your mangina all upset cause Mr. Juvinall boned your sweetheart. She isn’t all that bad once you get pass the used parts.

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  42. Todd Juvinall Avatar
    Todd Juvinall

    Thanks Bill. This fellow Fedor hates the Sheriff we all respect becasue of the POT Ordinace. He was everywhere in the blogs and the Union trashing Keith and Law Enforcement here. My guess is his defense of POT growing here may be personal. I have been attacked by much more intelligent people than this Fedor character so it really doesn’t bother me. After 30 years in politics you develop a thick skin. Besides, what has Fedor done for Nevada County or anyone else that he can speak of? Probably nothing as liberals are all yak with no sack. LOL!

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  43. Bill Tozer Avatar
    Bill Tozer

    “liberals are all yak with no sack. LOL!” Good one. Unhappy people say unhappy things. Sick people do sick things. He/she must be externalizing his/her internalities.
    Onward to more palatable topics like malaria.

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  44. MikeL Avatar
    MikeL

    Gerry, yeah Todd is a real dick for shorting the tax payers on his project kinda like the solar power boondoogle called California Valley Solar Ranch except 10000 times worse. I know.. you hate Todd for some reason.. I read above that he allegedly slept with your girl friend back in the 70’s…ok i can understand holding a grudge, but you need to focus your outrage on the real rip offs..like the solar power scams.
    I don’t know maybe you are in on the scam and making money off the backs of the poor folks who live in areas of California that require air conditioning….oh that’s right I remember now..you did say you are making cash off of your 3000 watt solar panel system.

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  45. Bill Tozer Avatar
    Bill Tozer

    Mr. L: Here is an old laundry list (11/2012) our lovely green companies that received federal funding and have paid us back. Denotes filed for bankruptcy protection. There was another one last week which filed for bankruptcy leaving us on the hook for 41 million. That could buy a lot of houses in Nevada County and create more jobs here. I can’t recall the name of the firm cause it is so hard to keep up with just the updates, lol.
    Evergreen Solar ($25 million)

    SpectraWatt ($500,000)*
    Solyndra ($535 million)*
    Beacon Power ($43 million)*
    Nevada Geothermal ($98.5 million)
    SunPower ($1.2 billion)
    First Solar ($1.46 billion)
    Babcock and Brown ($178 million)
    EnerDel’s subsidiary Ener1 ($118.5 million)*
    Amonix ($5.9 million)
    Fisker Automotive ($529 million)
    Abound Solar ($400 million)*
    A123 Systems ($279 million)*
    Willard and Kelsey Solar Group ($700,981)*
    Johnson Controls ($299 million)
    Brightsource ($1.6 billion)
    ECOtality ($126.2 million)
    Raser Technologies ($33 million)*
    Energy Conversion Devices ($13.3 million)*
    Mountain Plaza, Inc. ($2 million)*
    Olsen’s Crop Service and Olsen’s Mills Acquisition Company ($10 million)*
    Range Fuels ($80 million)*
    Thompson River Power ($6.5 million)*
    Stirling Energy Systems ($7 million)*
    Azure Dynamics ($5.4 million)*
    GreenVolts ($500,000)
    Vestas ($50 million)
    LG Chem’s subsidiary Compact Power ($151 million)
    Nordic Windpower ($16 million)*
    Navistar ($39 million)
    Satcon ($3 million)*
    Konarka Technologies Inc. ($20 million)*
    Mascoma Corp. ($1
    80% of the monies BarackObama of BarackObamacare notoriety gave to create wonderful economy saving green jobs ended up in the hands of BarackObama donors. If you want to play, you are going to pay.

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  46. Bill Tozer Avatar
    Bill Tozer

    Opps. MAJOR LACK OF PROOF READING: They have NOT paid us back!! Throw them and their spouses in Debtor’s Prison and take away their right to vote. Chop off their hands and cut out their tongues and cast their intestines to the buzzards. They deserve no respect and we should not listen to anyone from those companies until they pay back every blue cent.

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  47. Ben Emery Avatar

    Fish,
    Can we vote for something different if the option isn’t there?
    Hearing a candidate taking on both parties is very refreshing for many people.
    Other 40% Democratic 32% Republican 28% are the voter registration numbers in the US. If voters would vote their conscience instead of their fears we would have a much different representation in our government.
    Progressive Taxation and Demand Side Economics worked before and we had the largest strongest middle class in world history. We switched to Supply Side Economics and dropped taxation to where capital is taxed lower than labor and the middle class has been disappearing.

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  48. fish Avatar
    fish

    Fish,
    Can we vote for something different if the option isn’t there?
    Hearing a candidate taking on both parties is very refreshing for many people.
    Other 40% Democratic 32% Republican 28% are the voter registration numbers in the US. If voters would vote their conscience instead of their fears we would have a much different representation in our government.
    Progressive Taxation and Demand Side Economics worked before and we had the largest strongest middle class in world history. We switched to Supply Side Economics and dropped taxation to where capital is taxed lower than labor and the middle class has been disappearing.

    “We” can vote for whatever you can talk people into voting for. If you can convince Nevada county/Grass Valley voters that you’re “the guy”…well who am I to criticize them for their choice. That what you offer is “refreshing” and different…well I’m not convinced especially after you answered my earlier question by turning in Robert Reichs homework.
    Additionally, Ben I wouldn’t conflate the prosperity that occurred post WWII with progressive taxation….it really didn’t hurt to have the only un-smashed industrial base left in the world. The US economy was strong in spite of high taxation not because of it! Let’s also not forget that a vast expansion of the mangerial/regulatory state accompanied your disappearing middle class. It seems that business will adapt to high wage costs or excessive regulation. When they have to do both they decamp for more favorable climes.

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