Rebane's Ruminations
September 2013
S M T W T F S
1234567
891011121314
15161718192021
22232425262728
2930  

ARCHIVES


OUR LINKS


YubaNet
White House Blog
Watts Up With That?
The Union
Sierra Thread
RL “Bob” Crabb
Barry Pruett Blog

George Rebane

FutureMindA number of emails, articles, and recent announcements came together that made me again revisit the notion of man’s dream of physical immortality.  What if there were developed a pill that would genomically and/or proteomically rejuvenate a person, and taking such a pill every so many years would keep him going indefinitely?  It seems to me that such a pill, or even a more complex rejuvenation procedure, would put the continued existence of humanity at risk.

A friend and former colleague, Dr Keith Dutton, just informed me that the company that he coufounded – Lively – was successful in closing a second round of funding, and is now off to the races.  Lively offers a system that enables single older folks to continue living alone and maintaining their independence over a greater span of their life, thereby fulfilling a basic desire by all of us to maintain the homeostasis of normalcy for as long as possible.  Nevada County probably has a lot of customers for such a system.

Then there’s all the buzz on how education delivery is moving online (see RR posts on MOOCs and all the universities starting to offer their curricula over the internet).  The more important part of that is the efforts of older workers and even retired people who are enrolling in these courses to keep learning more stuff, develop additional skillsets to sell in the workforce, and to continue the never-ending pursuit of fulfillment.  The age cutoff for retiring from a stimulating life seems to be rapidly disappearing.

My old pal Dr Larry Press at CSUDH (professor of information technologies) has been a longtime promoter of all things internet and networking.  His blog is a good resource for keeping up with the latest in everything from network applications to distance learning.  Apropos to living a longer and much more productive life, Larry’s 23sep13 entry introduces us to FutureLearn, a collaboration of a group of UK universities.  “Their slogan is ‘Learning for life’, indicating a focus on students who are not seeking credit and degrees. That audience may turn out to be more important than traditional university students — more lucrative and more beneficial to society.”

During these pre-Singularity years the pursuit of life extension (cum immortality) is reaching the entrepreneurial levels of business activity.  Early evangelists like Ray Kurzweil are now being joined by start-ups like Calico (California Life Corporation) which Google has announced as its latest business venture (more here).   Actually, since Kurzweil joined Google, their investment in Calico is probably his doing.


In any event, the notifications and announcements of progress in all kinds of technologies that will promote longer and more productive lives keep pouring in.  Going back to the original question, I am reminded of two sci-fi classics of many years ago – A.C. Clark’s Childhood’s End (1953) and R. Heinlein’s Lazarus Long series, particularly Time Enough to Love (1973).  Each in their own way dealt with long life and the satisfaction of life’s wants, albeit at a cost.  I read these as a nascent teenager and as a young father, both made lasting impressions.

Lazarus Long is a virtual immortal who rejuvenates by the functional equivalent of periodically taking a pill.  In Time Enough, as a multi-millennial, he finally wants to die.  Long belongs to a secret society that owns this technology, and thereby expands a lively discussion of what would happen to humanity were this technology known to and then demanded by the great masses.  Not a pretty picture – after all, if children are to be born then the old are to die, otherwise there will be insurmountable problems.  In some ways we are approaching similar problems with our universal and ever expanding welfare system, as the part of America that no longer even seeks work continues to grow while enjoying a quite acceptable quality of life being supported by others.

In Childhood’s End we see the reaction to enforced global peace and dissolution of human creativity, utopia manifest, and the termination of all reproductive rights – and wrongs.  The last generation of the world’s children leave their parents and humanity behind as they prepare to join the galactic (cosmic?) Overmind.  Such an existence and pointless future becomes unbearable for the left behind adults, and some intellectually advanced communities begin committing mass suicide.  Be careful what you ask for?

But both Clark and Heinlein considered extended existence and materially abundant life only in the context of a human mentality in stasis – people with the perceptions, needs, and wants with which we all are familiar.  But under various belief systems and studies of esoteric knowledge, Man has already demonstrated that he can radically change his perspective of what is, and change his lifestyle accordingly.

As machine and Man continue melding their minds – a process already well under way with ubiquitous internet connectivity – our mentality will be in anything except stasis.  At a minimum, this can be said for the cognitive class that understands the current art of the possible, and recognizes the vast experiential fields that will open as we get ever closer to the Singularity.

In the advent of all this, the old order will not depart quietly.  And yet, how can it co-exist with the coming immortals whose universe will not be the one in which we have always lived?

Posted in , ,

125 responses to “Time to Live Forever?”

  1. rlcrabb Avatar

    Those two Clarke novels were some my favorites as well. Although I don’t remember all the details of those stories, I do recall that the cosmic super-consciousness used a genetically inferior race to carry out their wishes. I had to laugh when the “Overlords” finally exposed themselves to humanity, and the notion that their physical forms were foreseen as an echo back during the garden of Eden days.
    It seems that we are headed in the same direction that Clarke envisioned, except that we don’t need an extraterrestrial entity to accomplish it. We will willingly connect ourselves to the collective through implants, or end up alone and cut off. As for living forever, would you really want to?

    Like

  2. Ryan Mount Avatar

    Like everything else, I just want to know how much this is going to cost me. For the life of me, I can’t get anyone to tell me anything of substance.
    For example: if I live forever (or longer), does that mean I’m on the hook for more alimony? (my guess is yes)
    Signed,
    Pragmatic GenXer.

    Like

  3. George Rebane Avatar

    RyanM 725pm – One would expect that a special dispensation would be made for obligations such as alimony. Condemning your ex to live forever on the pittance you pay her would indeed be a cruel fate 😉

    Like

  4. Michael Anderson Avatar
    Michael Anderson

    Ryan,
    The answer is no. Your ex-wife, if she started to take the forever pill, would most likely be required to give up her alimony for 1 of 2 reasons: 1) her access to the pill would be conditional upon her entering the workforce to the extent that she “made her nut,” or, 2) the Singularity would overtake your seemingly-forever alimony responsibility and machines would take over the function of keeping her sustained.
    George,
    Fascinating subject, thanks for bringing it up. I am all for this technology being pursued. One beneficial side-effect would be that after living for several hundred years, people would no longer spend 80%-98% of the their total outlay of medical expenditures in the final year or so of life, trying to postpone the inevitable. This is truly where an inordinate amount of money is wasted presently, and one of the main reasons why we have shot up to 16% of GDP for health care costs.

    Like

  5. George Rebane Avatar

    MichaelA 829pm – Agreed. Than again, how should the choice be made to spend that personally earned or contracted for wealth?
    ps. I feel pretty certain that the medical costs have been shooting up for extra-medical reasons. Maybe if we can reduce those first, and then see how it goes, before we do what Obamacare is really doing to healthcare costs. We may be yearning to go back to the good old days of 16%.

    Like

  6. Michael Anderson Avatar
    Michael Anderson

    George: “Then again, how should the choice be made to spend that personally earned or contracted for wealth?” Well, by the person who made that money, of course.
    I’m talking about the folks, public employees who retire for example and live another 30 years, who at the end peg the health care fun meter to 11 and try to eke out another 6 months for hundreds of thousands of dollars (if not millions), most of that time spent in the hospital.
    Those folks are taking out way more than they put in.

    Like

  7. Gregory Avatar

    If people were spending their children’s and grandchildren’s inheritance they wouldn’t spend hock the family farm to live an extra couple of months or less, possibly in pain, spending the cost of a university education to try to delay the inevitable.
    Doctors tend to not choose heroic measures when they see their own final illness; the rest of us would do well to do the same.

    Like

  8. George Rebane Avatar

    MichaelA 1000pm – Well, yes. But your example of the retired public employees raises a more insidious question. They, collectively through their unions, strong-armed the taxpaying private sector to gain these time-delayed concessions with the help of the vote-buying sleazebag and/or double dummy politicians. The latter are long gone when the piper must be paid. (This should cause us to always look askance at how our current politicians are incrementally perpetuating evil.)

    Like

  9. Ryan Mount Avatar

    Thanks for the Family Court advice. I’ve written and filed away a motion in case I get to live longer.
    Now this: http://www.forbes.com/sites/michaelbell/2013/01/10/why-5-of-patients-create-50-of-health-care-costs/
    This is a 5/50 rule for those familiar with the old worn out 80/20 idea.
    “A lot of the money being spent is not only not helping, it is making that patient endure more bad experiences on a daily basis. The patient’s quality of life is being sacrificed by increasing the cost of death.”
    So…
    1) Do we just want the market to sort out who gets to live a few months longer? That is, if you have the cash to burn, you can survive another 6 months, else you croak.
    2) Or should we have some oversight like a “Death panel” especially when it comes to publicly funded end of life care?
    3) Some combination of #1 and #2?

    Like

  10. Michael Anderson Avatar
    Michael Anderson

    For those who can pay, the market will work fine.
    Gregory is right, doctors don’t throw Hail Mary passes when it comes to their own end-of-life time, and anything they can do to educate the dying that prolonging the inevitable is in no one’s interest, including the person who is dying, in a whole lot of ways.
    I have witnessed more than one situation where a doctor denied intervention in a Stage 4 situation, only to relent when the patient applied a moderate amount of pressure. Things went south and ended up costing the insurance company many times more than what would have been incurred by bringing in Hospice care instead.
    George, my understanding of PPACA is that it addresses some of these tough end-of-life decisions, to the betterment of the bottom line. And no, not through non-existent “Death Panels.”

    Like

  11. George Rebane Avatar

    MichaelA 1100am – As reported here, Obamacare does indeed institute a so-called Death Panel (aka Independent Payment Advisory Board – IPAB) of seventeen professionals who will also make policy on what kind of care will be covered “to the betterment of the bottom line” during your last days. The loyal leftwing chorus remains as the only stalwarts who still deny the IPAB’s function, and keep singing the ‘Everything will be Rosy with Obamacare’ anthem. Even some Democrats are starting to look askance at Big Brother managing your “tough end-of-life decisions”.
    http://thehill.com/blogs/healthwatch/health-reform-implementation/316045-obamacare-cost-cutting-board-faces-growing-opposition-from-democrats
    http://rebaneruminations.typepad.com/rebanes_ruminations/2012/07/the-pelosi-principle-validated.html

    Like

  12. Todd Juvinall Avatar

    The use of language and its manipulation by the left is a wonder to behold. Death panels changed to Advisory Boards. Garbage men changed to sanitary engineers. Homosexuals hijack the word gay. Yep those smarty pants worn by the libs.

    Like

  13. Ryan Mount Avatar

    Whoops. Congress (somebody) better get a crackin on this PPACA “glitch.”
    http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/2013/09/23/aca-family-glitch-issues/2804017/
    Abstract:
    “Congress defined “affordable” as 9.5% or less of an employee’s household income, mostly to make sure people did not leave their workplace plans for subsidized coverage through the exchanges. But the “error” was that it only applies to the employee — and not his or her family. So, if an employer offers a woman affordable insurance, but doesn’t provide it for her family, they cannot get subsidized help through the state health exchanges.”

    Like

  14. Gregory Avatar

    George is correct, the death panels exist but under a more marketable name and function.
    Regarding the latest glitch, Reid and Obama need to work with the Republican lawmakers with whom they worked out compromises when the so-called Affordable Care Act was being drafted. The problem is, of course, that even Captain Hook could count those on the fingers of his left hand.

    Like

  15. Gregory Avatar

    Now, when my first wife was dying after a stage 4 cancer diagnosis, she wanted all the treatment she could get, letting up only when there was no other choice, after her ovarian cancer took up residence in her liver, reducing its function to a point at which her oncologist could no longer prescribe any chemotherapy agent at a therapeutic dose. Time to die was about a month later.
    She had distinct and not unrealistic goals… outlive her parents and see our son graduate from high school, but came up short. Only once did we have to consider using our own money, when the doc was considering the use of a breast cancer drug, Herceptin, that was experimental for ovarian cancer. My wife cried when I told the doctor I’d exercise stock options to cover it if the test for applicability was good but the insurance didn’t cover it. Unfortunately, she wasn’t a candidate for it… it would attack her heart as vigorously as it would attack her tumors. A damn shame, as if her cancer had an overexpression of the protein Herceptin grabs onto she might still be alive and taking the stuff.
    The problem is that the rabble were sold on Obamacare as it being the same great care the rich folk in Congress get that had been unfairly denied to them. Everyone wins, everyone gets all the care a doctor thinks would help without worry about the cost. Make an appointment with the best doctor in your area, get right in, and while you’re in the waiting room, the Easter Bunny will give you a chocolate egg.
    Care will always be rationed, either by wait, price born by the consumer or… being unavailable at any price for someone your age with those conditions. Sorry.

    Like

  16. Paul Emery Avatar

    Of course George those who subscribe to being social Darwinist, and there are many on this blog, don’t need to worry about death panels. Survival of the fittest or better yet the richest. The rest are just compost. When there is no options for adequate health care people just die or live miserably.

    Like

  17. Gregory Avatar

    “The rest are just compost. When there is no options for adequate health care people just die or live miserably.”
    Paul, there you go again. If you hung them upside down for a nice Kosher slaughtering, you couldn’t drain enough life’s blood from the rich to give everyone in the US unlimited healthcare or stop the grim reaper for most who present with stage 4 cancer.

    Like

  18. Paul Emery Avatar

    Gregory
    Nobody’s asking for unlimited healthcare. My friends that do not have the insurance or financial resources have undiagnosed medical problems that will cause them to die earlier than those with those resources. No doubt, it’s social Darwinism. I assume that whats you subscribe to.

    Like

  19. Gregory Avatar

    Here are a number of “Social Darwinists” and their views. No, I have never been enamored with any of their writings:
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_Darwinism#Social_Darwinists
    Paul, you need to find a black or whiteboard and write
    “Utopia is not an option”
    100 times. Your need to tag a pejorative term like that to people who aren’t upset that the rich (which I am not) get more health care choices without a wait than the poor is apparently one of your deeper flaws.

    Like

  20. George Rebane Avatar

    Ending what the Left calls ‘social Darwinism’ is one of their most compelling messages to the great unwashed. The substituted alternative is ‘social justice’ from panels of elites who will determine what we eat, where we live, how we travel, the extent of our healthcare, what we are taught, and how we may entertain ourselves. No more Darwinism, social or otherwise. The great egalitarian transformation will then do to the development of Man what the asteroid did some 60M years ago to the giant reptiles.

    Like

  21. Paul Emery Avatar

    George what is the extent of healthcare for one of my dear friends who may have a brain tumor but cannot even be diagnosed unless she is willing to drain her meager bank account and cash out her retirement investment. You offer no alternative. There are many prudent health care models in existence but all you have to offer is fear and an incredibly archaic and absolutely unsubstantiated theory of the future.
    Gregory
    You only know how to use extreme examples. No one is asking for utopia. That’s your way of ignoring the reality that human dignity and freedom is dependent on a reasonable level of healthcare.

    Like

  22. Paul Emery Avatar

    Also George and Gregory would you share with us the type of health insurance you have and where it came from?

    Like

  23. George Rebane Avatar

    PaulE 925pm – Has it ever occurred to you that certain people, say like your friend, with diagnosed brain tumors may not qualify for therapeutic treatment under Obamacare in the out years? To reduce the already projected runaway costs, the IPAB may authorize only palliative care for such cases. And only the Darwinistic rich will be able to obtain therapy, either here through a rump private medical sector or in a foreign land.

    Like

  24. Paul Emery Avatar

    George
    I don’t support Obamacare so don’t hang that pork chop around my neck. This person is not in the “out years” but in her early 50’s and lives in incredible fear. Her problem may be a simple one or it could be very serious. The point is she can’t afford to even have a diagnosis unless she is willing to be destitute. She is currently unemployed mainly because she cannot work due to her condition. Yes, the wealthy have options not available to the poor or unemployed. Is that some kind of revelation? It would drain her bank account and leave her homeless to obtain any kind of medical relief.

    Like

  25. Paul Emery Avatar

    Also, as you know, the wife of one of our colleagues on this blog was able to obtain insurance to have a heart operation which likely saved her life because of Obamacare so its not all bad. Are you willing to say to this couple that they are contributors to “The great egalitarian transformation that will do to the development of Man what the asteroid did some 60M years ago to the giant reptiles”.

    Like

  26. Bill Tozer Avatar
    Bill Tozer

    Very interesting topic, gentlemen. At least no one on this current thread has slammed us Social Darwinists for decrying death panels as was the case 18 months ago. Not yet. Easy to predict death panels. As day follows night, rationing will result. Cut the dying first, then???? Maybe those with inoperable brain tumors or those in need of experimental treatments? Or maybe brain tumor operations will be treated like organ transplants. Pick a number, wait in line, and don’t call us, we will call you.
    On the more general topic of eternal life on Earth (no, I ain’t taking about government bureaucracy), read a study that predicts for the first time the average life span here in the good ole USofA might actually decrease in 30 years. Seems this obesity epidemic is getting way out of control and thus diabetes and heart disease and other ailments associated with hauling around an extra barrel of lard will cause the decrease in lifespan. If you are going to play, you are going to pay. Darn. Maybe that control freak Bloomberg was right. Well, at least I don’t drink sodie pops (gives me headaches) and I was a breast fed baby. 2 out of 5 ain’t bad.
    Dr. Rebane, if one pill makes me live for infinity and beyond, what will 4 pills do for me? Those of us with compulsive addictive personalities would like to find out, ASAP. Like 5 minutes ago 🙂

    Like

  27. Gregory Avatar

    George, Paul’s friend doesn’t know if they have a brain tumor or not.
    Paul, you are the one demanding Utopia. You write “You only know how to use extreme examples” following once again an extreme example… your 1 in a million two boys that need a very specialized drug to combat a genetic illness, and now someone who has no insurance, is worried they might have a brain tumor and needs some expensive diagnostics they can only afford if they drain their retirement savings.
    The real shame is that if your friend had insurance, the actual allowed cost to the insurance company is probably a small fraction of what they are quoted as an uninsured individual, one of the unintended side effects of Medicare and Medicaid payments being lower than the cost of providing the service, so everyone else gets charged much more in the hope of making it up. These things are all artifacts of mostly Democrats in Congress leaving health care as an untaxed “fringe” benefit since the 1940’s that hasn’t been “fringe” for 50 years, and not affecting needed tort reform because those attorneys are Democratic stalwarts.
    As far as the insurance I have, it’s a far cry from the gold plated insurance I had while working for Cisco, or the gold plated plans the United Auto Workers have now while working for Government Motors, or the plans Congress wants to keep and not have to go on the Obamacare cart. It’s a run of the mill employee benefit that is a mix of HMO and PPO features; one has to be very careful not to trigger large out of network fees and we have had to make difficult personal choices in order to keep that coverage.
    Sorry, George doesn’t sound like a “Social Darwinist” to me; perhaps if you can find the writing of a self described Social Darwinist that fits anyone here you could get some traction.
    Let go of your envy of those wealthier than your friends; what we have had isn’t a free market solution, it’s a Frankenstein monster created mostly by Democrats… they were controlling Congress from the time I was filling diapers until the time Gingrich was elected Speaker. Just making healthcare taxable like any other pay 50 years ago would have solved many of our healthcare problems because insurers would be working for their ultimate customers rather than their customer’s employers.

    Like

  28. Bill Tozer Avatar
    Bill Tozer

    “In Obamacare I trust.” Hmmm, lets see who is exempt from the Affordable Care Act And no, not the big boys. Just basically the uninsured ones.
    A) illegal aliens. Exempt and no do qualify. Whatz to stop them from using ER as their first choice? Kinda undermines the argument of poor people without insurance showing up at the ER and driving medical costs up, up, and away.
    B) Those who make so little they are not required to file a Federal Tax return. Exempt. Silly me, I thought those who were the most needy, those who walk around poor and with no insurance were THE reason to support Obamacare.
    C) On a case by case basis, those that are given “an individual hardship exception”, i.e. those that cannot afford anything for various reasons, even with subsidies. Can’t get blood out of turnip. Again, what is keeping them from showing up at the ER?
    D) Since one day of Obamacare coverage is counted as a month, those that play the game and have coverage for 5 months and one day only. They are not subject to penalties by the IRS and are counted by the bean counters as having “full time” coverage…Full time is Obama speak for 6 months. In reality, they can skate almost 7 months without being required to have insurance.
    E) Like Medicare or private employer sponsored insurance, those that do not sign up during open enrollment in 2015 are left out in the cold. You snooze, you lose. Try again next open enrollment period.

    Like

  29. fish Avatar
    fish

    ……Nobody’s asking for unlimited healthcare.
    And that’s just what you’re going to get with FedCare. The skills and wait times of a third world mud hut hospital coupled with the loving, caring nature of the IRS.
    Enjoy it Guitarzan!

    Like

  30. fish Avatar
    fish

    Dr. Rebane, if one pill makes me live for infinity and beyond, what will 4 pills do for me?
    Interesting question Bill….might I suggest consulting Ms McFuzz.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miss_Gertrude_McFuzz

    Like

  31. MikeL Avatar
    MikeL

    How cruel of Paul to not help his friend go see a doctor, even though Dr. Emery has diagnosed her with a brain tumor. Paul has no problem asking everyone else to step up to the plate to pay for his friends doctor bills but I have not read here where Paul has contributed a dime of his own money.

    Like

  32. Paul Emery Avatar

    It is her concern that she may have a brain tumor not my diagnosis. Pretty silly assumption. The simple fact is she cannot afford to be diagnosed let alone treated which in this situation can cost thousands. Allowing someone to continue in this state is cruel and not in keeping with being a modern culture or nation.

    Like

  33. Michael Anderson Avatar
    Michael Anderson

    Health care should have been decoupled from employment half a century ago, but wasn’t because of corruption and our antiquated political system. Oh well, PPACA is going to finally take care of that. So the point is moot.
    I agree with Paul: PPACA sucks and was a terrible way to go. But the status quo sucks even more, so PPACA it is. You can either gnash your teeth or work to fix the problems within its framework. Single payer would have been better.
    Greg, Todd, and others blame the Democrats for our healthcare woes. Were they not legitimately elected? Blame the electorate: your lefty friends, people who live in cities; elections have consequences, and your side lost. You could blame the sky and the clouds for all the good it’s going to do you.
    I look forward to the end of all this mewling and bawling in a couple of years. Enjoy your coming irrelevancy!

    Like

  34. George Rebane Avatar

    re MichaelA’s 913am – “Enjoy your coming irrelevancy!”
    Our irrelevancy in the public forum has now been predicted for over five years (the record of that on RR is still crisp and indelible). And our voices have been ignored/mangled by the lamestream for much longer than that. Yet somehow there remain enough of us so that we must constantly be reminded how irrelevant we have become.
    Re Obamacare, the overwhelming majority of Americans don’t like it, along with major corporations, unions, and even Congress itself. The response of the hard left? smear on a lot more lipstick, and sooner or later they won’t recognize the pig underneath.

    Like

  35. Gregory Avatar

    “Allowing someone to continue in this state is cruel and not in keeping with being a modern culture or nation.”
    Paul… so she has a preexisting condition that kept her from buying insurance? Or would rather save money for retirement and hope stiff medical bills don’t come before medicare kicks in? What is her particular story regarding insurance, or lack of it? This is one doctor’s opinion? Two? Did a doctor or two actually say she needed the very expensive diagnostics, or just mention them in passing?
    Then there’s hypochondria and while we’ll stipulate this isn’t the case here, there are many who overuse care while others do their best to shake off whatever is bothering them without going to a doctor even if they have great insurance or wads of cash. Personally, I prefer training my doctor to expect if I come in they need to take it seriously rather than “what is it this time?”.
    The concept of insurance isn’t “someone with money who will pay my medical bills” but rather, I pay in something close to the expected cost of the benefit (plus a bit more) to a large pool so if I get hit with a large bill everyone else has also chipped in, and, if I’m lucky (in a perverse monetary sense) I’ll not get sick and not get any benefits at all. Going without insurance is a bet that you won’t need it. Like all bets, it’s possible to lose.
    “Allowing someone to continue in this state is cruel and not in keeping with being a modern culture or nation.”
    Sorry, I really have little information about what state she is actually in. Currently unemployed, can’t work because of a condition, doesn’t want to spend the last of her money to throw at a diagnosis. It could be as horrible and rare as a brain tumor that she truly can’t afford to adequately diagnose or treat (if it is even treatable) or as commonplace as depression; both are tragic. We don’t know, and Paul, I suspect you’ll just keep tossing out worst case extreme examples as cases that any national solution will have to cover without hesitation because there is only one humane solution in your mind… a single payer with deep pockets that will pay for all the care you think your friends and acquaintances need.

    Like

  36. Todd Juvinall Avatar

    Watching Ted Cruz and others filibuster up until noon was wonderful. All the things being said were correct. The Obamacare disaster was created by subterfuge and when anything starts out like that it will not work. There are already 10 thousand pages of regulations on the first two hundred pages of the 3000 page law. But the democrats don’t care. Harry Reid will figure out a way to defeat by Parliamentary tricks the defunding of the travesty to America and its Founders intent.
    MichaelA, no whining from me or Greg about democrat control of the Senate. We have the House, the originator of all spending and a solid majority. I would say 2014 may be a watershed year for regaining the Senate and keeping Obama from socializing and fundamentally changing the country.
    My experience in healthcare has been very good. Good care from doctors and SMNH. (all the docs are against Ocare)I buy my own insurance and pay my own bills. Pretty simple. That was because I created a business and made some money in order to pay the premiums. Isn’t that America?
    Regarding the Senate. It is 54 dems 46 R’s. The House will be R’s after 2014. The dems in red states are in jeopardy and we may see some interesting debate today.
    You libs are always one direction, left, and refuse to compromise yet whine and complain when we on the right stay our course of conscience. Too bad. I just watched some Labour Party conference in Brighton, England and those libs in that country are espousing the same crap Obama and Reid and Pelosi are doing here. They will lose to in their upcoming elections. Germany just kept Merkel and her Party in charge and it seem there is a worldwide swing back to reality and away from your commie/soft attempts to take over.

    Like

  37. Gregory Avatar

    “Health care should have been decoupled from employment half a century ago, but wasn’t because of corruption and our antiquated political system.”
    From late 1931 to early 1995, the Speaker of the House, where all tax legislation must originate, was a Democrat for all but 4 years (’47/8, ’53/4). So tell us, why do you think Democrats aren’t primarily to blame for the tax system we have, including employer based health care because it isn’t taxed if it’s a “fringe benefit”?

    Like

  38. Gregory Avatar

    “MichaelA, no whining from me or Greg about democrat control of the Senate. We have the House, the originator of all spending and a solid majority.”
    What you mean “We”, kemosabe? I see Cruz more as an embarrassment for Republicans than anything else, but I suspect this is more about getting Senate Dems in competitive states on the record about Obamacare for next year’s elections.

    Like

  39. fish Avatar
    fish

    1. Health care should have been decoupled from employment half a century ago, but wasn’t because of corruption and our antiquated political system. Oh well, PPACA is going to finally take care of that. So the point is moot.
    Well Michael has weighed in on the matter so I guess it’s settled. Whew.
    2. I agree with Paul: PPACA sucks and was a terrible way to go. But the status quo sucks even more, so PPACA it is. You can either gnash your teeth or work to fix the problems within its framework. Single payer would have been better.
    The United States can’t afford the single payer it has now (Medicare)! Oh Michael did you really think you were going to get all that “free” healthcare you’ve been promised? Silly you.
    3. Greg, Todd, and others blame the Democrats for our healthcare woes. Were they not legitimately elected? Blame the electorate: your lefty friends, people who live in cities; elections have consequences, and your side lost. You could blame the sky and the clouds for all the good it’s going to do you.
    I do blame the electorate….daily….but at least they are reliably stupid. You can’t really hold the electorate responsible any more than you could hold a herd of cattle responsible for the consequences of their decisions. This is where I differ from most on the board….I know democracy is a sham. Yeah I’m looking at you Frisch.
    4. I look forward to the end of all this mewling and bawling in a couple of years. Enjoy your coming irrelevancy!
    Irrelevancy?? Enjoy your coming insolvency…..and wait till you have to confront the holders of all those broken promises. Lemme know how it goes.

    Like

  40. Todd Juvinall Avatar
    Todd Juvinall

    I view Cruz as a maverick and it surprises me when those that claim no allegiance to either party or claim to mavericks themselves cannot see that in Cruz.
    I suppose Cruz should just be a go along to get along guy just like the rest so complained about.

    Like

  41. Gregory Avatar

    I suspect Cruz is playing a game, playing the part of a maverick, with Presidential delusions.
    I gather he didn’t even talk about his plans with senior GOP senators before launching his filibuster against Republican legislation sent up from the House.

    Like

  42. fish Avatar
    fish

    I suspect Cruz is playing a game, playing the part of a maverick, with Presidential delusions.
    Still anything that sends Harry Reid into an impotent rage is okay in my book.

    Like

  43. Paul Emery Avatar

    RE: Gregory 25 September 2013 at 09:47 AM
    No Gregory All I’m asking for is some kind of healthcare system to at least put is in the league with other modern nations. Georges hysteria about healthcare leading to bayonets in the streets is laughingly ignorable and not an argument to be perused except within a very small group of 19th Century nostalgics. There are suffering people in this country that have treatable problems and its immoral in my view to to not make their care a highest priority, at least as high as blowing up children with drones in distant lands.

    Like

  44. Todd Juvinall Avatar
    Todd Juvinall

    Greg, Cruz campaigned in Texas on this very issue. He is doing what he said he would do. I could care less if he had Presidential aspirations, there are 99 other Senators that do too. Not every person in politics (well other than D’s) is a scofflaw.
    Look at the personal attacks Cruz etal have experienced from Reid and his minions. Hell, it is my experience when they start attacking you personally then you must be winning.

    Like

  45. fish Avatar
    fish

    Hey! Where’s Krazy Doug Keachie been???
    Wait…found him!
    http://dachshundlove.blogspot.com/2013/09/dachtober-is-upon-us.html
    But what is he doing with two of my dogs…..and those…err…socks?

    Like

  46. George Rebane Avatar

    PaulE 1122am – Paul, along with other stasists you think that unsustainable socialist programs don’t beget other band-aid programs, increased taxes, increased regulations, etc. Unfortunately that is not the case as demonstrated by conditions in Greece, Spain, Italy, Belgium, and Ireland. As long as we create commons funded by other people’s money, things tend to progress in only one direction. Look at the malaise that socialist Great Britain was in until the Iron Lady came along. And even she was able to pull the country back from economic abyss only so far. Now, led by its NHS and its already abandoned toothless military, the country is looking to increase taxes again. The country continues at an anemic 1.5-2.1% annual growth that promises paring back services in all sectors including healthcare. How can that be?

    Like

  47. Paul Emery Avatar

    George
    Yes indeed, adjustments are made from time to time and guess what, those countries still exist and golly, the people seem to be living free and productive lives. Show me one, just one, country in the world that embraces your vision of health care and we’ll have something to talk about based on comparison but until then it’s the Theory of George vs the rest of the contemporary world. I have shown time and time again that national health care is more efficient, inclusive and has a higher approval factor than ours-Australia for example- and you seem to ignore that basic reality.

    Like

  48. fish Avatar
    fish

    I have shown time and time again that national health care is more efficient, inclusive and has a higher approval factor than ours-Australia for example- and you seem to ignore that basic reality.
    Ooh I guess you missed all those reports about people left to die on gurneys in hallways while under the care of the NHS.
    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/health/healthnews/8668906/NHS-delays-operations-as-it-waits-for-patients-to-die-or-go-private.html
    http://www.theguardian.com/books/2013/jul/01/nhs-sos-davis-tallis-review
    http://fairwhistleblower.ca/content/julie-bailey-enemy-people

    Like

  49. Paul Emery Avatar

    Sounds anecdotal to me Fish. That’s a no no on this blog. It’s easy to dig up stuff like that on the web. My data is based on direct experience and official reports. Check out Australia for percent of GDP, inclusiveness and satisfaction, which I’ve already done in an earlier entry and you’ll see my information is verified.

    Like

Leave a comment