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September 2013
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George Rebane

            On Wealth – First create, then spread.

[This is the addended transcript of my regular KVMR commentary broadcast on 13 September 2013.]

As promised, this commentary continues the examination of a new class divide in America that has arisen over the last 50 years.  The supporting data for this comes from multiple institutional and government studies done in the last decade or so, and is compiled in Coming Apart: The State of White America, 1960-2010 by the country’s preeminent sociologist and author Charles Murray.

Last time we looked at the rise of a new upper class, its characteristics, and how it has sought to separate and stabilize itself in a transforming America.  You can review that commentary on KVMR’s website archives, or be linked to its transcript from my website Rebane’s Ruminations.  Today we turn our attention to the more worrisome component of our dividing society – the newly emerged lower class.

Murray identifies this lower class as characterized by “differences that affect the ability of people to live satisfying lives, the ability of communities to function as communities, and the ability of America to survive as America.”  In his book he compares and contrasts the classes in terms of two synthesized American communities – Belmont and Fishtown.  The upper class, who live in the country’s Belmonts, comprise about 20% of the population.  The lower class, who live in the Fishtowns, comprise about 30% of the population.  The remaining 50% is somewhere in the middle and shrinking in size, currently losing most of its members to the lower class.


To make the analysis manageable, Murray’s residents of Belmont all have at least a BA degree, make good money working as managers, are in the professions or science/technology, or media content production, and so on.  Or they are married to such a person.

In contrast, no resident of Fishtown has more than a high school diploma, makes a modest income at best, and is a blue-collar or service worker, or has a low-level white collar job.  A goodly portion of them derive at least some of their income from government welfare.

Were these the only aspects that characterized class differences, America’s future would not have to look much different than its historical past.  But it doesn’t stop there, because Fishtown has changed markedly over the last 50 years.  America always had a poor class, but they almost always lived in tightly knit communities in which they had and expended what is called ‘social capital’.  That means they helped and looked out for one another, worshipped together, married each other and raised families, celebrated family milestones and holidays together, and so on.

They gathered into enclaves that were ethnically and culturally more uniform.  They were able to understand each other and reliably predict each other’s behavior.  They belonged to the same churches, temples, service organizations.  Overall, this engendered a feeling of mutual trust that made a community able to function, to take pride in self-reliance, and withstand the misfortunes of life.

Murray cites study after study of the changes that became noticeable in the 1970s, and then apparent to all by the 1990s.  During the last half century in Fishtown every laudable social metric took a marked turn downward.  A major contributor to the measured collapse of communities has been ascribed to the loss of ‘religiosity’.  This along with the breakdown of the family as more and more Fishtown males rejected the responsibility of marriage and family, leaving single mothers to function both as bread winners and raise their children.  The result is that today the Fishtowns have lost their sense of traditional community, and irretrievably so according to most sociologists.

The concluding punch line to this segment is that when the data on whites was expanded to include blacks and Hispanics, the major characteristics of work, community, religion, and values did not change across racial lines.  Both of these new upper and lower classes are strongly differentiated along socio-economic lines, but very weakly so along genetics and genealogy.

There is much more to this important story which I will cover in the future editions of this series.  In the meantime I urge you to read Charles Murray’s Coming Apart that, according to critics, today “describes the most important trends in American society.”

My name is Rebane, and I also expand on this and related themes on georgerebane.com where the transcript of this commentary is posted with an addendum and relevant links, and where such issues are debated extensively.  However my views are not necessarily shared by KVMR.  Thank you for listening.

[Addendum]  There is more to be said about the Fishtown whites who not only no longer work, but are no longer seeking work.  That cohort is growing, and it is not limited to only whites.  Murray cites the research of economists Mark Aguiar and Erik Hurst and their work on ‘time use surveys’.  Over the last half century, it turns out, that there has been a marked “increase in ‘leisure’ that primarily affected men with low education.”
 
MaleUnemploymentIn 1985 leisure hours spent by Fishtown and Belmont males were about an hour apart.  Then something changed.  Aguiar and Hurst report that “between 1985 and 2005 men who had not completed high school increased their leisure time by eight hours per week, while men who had completed college decreased their leisure time by six hours per week.”  And the “worst results” were among those without jobs.

And what filled the increased leisure hours of the under-educated?  Did they involve themselves in more charity work, community activities, exercise, sports, hobbies, …?  Not at all.  The increased leisure time was allotted to extra sleep, television watching, and generally hanging out.  Murray sums it up with “white males of the 2000s were less industrious than they had been twenty, thirty or fifty years ago, and that decay in industriousness occurred overwhelmingly in Fishtown.”  Even “employed men with no more than high school diplomas also goofed more in 2003-5 than in 1985”.

This trend in our society is having a marked effect on our economy during these pre-Singularity years as reported by academics Paul Peterson and Eric Hanushek in the 12sep13 WSJ (‘The Vital Link of Education and Prosperity’).  They cite the overall poor performance of our high school students – fewer than one third of them are proficient in math – and relate data from the National Assessment of Educational Progress showing the impact of demonstrated smarts on lifelong earnings.

And as often noted here, Peterson and Hanushek remind us that “economic gains will come many years after school improvement takes place”.  All of which explains away why the “political class” is reluctant “to commit itself to genuine school reform” because “confronting the power of teacher unions and other vested interests is politically costly.”

And what are our socialists in government doing about this?  They are implementing tax and wage policies that defy reason and logic, most certainly conservetarian reason and logic.  An insurmountable principle for collectivists is that increasing the price of something causes less of it to be consumed.  People begin looking for cheaper alternatives when things start costing too much.  You’d think that a light would go on and everyone would instantly pick up on that.  Not a chance.

Such illuminations occur seldom and in only special areas for the liberal mind – intellectually they are not able to generalize them across the field of human economic behavior.  It’s as if they learned their economics from the Hogwarts School of Witchcraft and Wizardry of Harry Potter fame.  Take the exception of California’s Democrats arguing the benefits of increasing taxes on cigarettes because (seatbelts please) it will make them more expensive and therefore reduce smoking because fewer people will buy them.  Well fine enough, maybe there is hope for such intellects.

Not a chance.  In the next breath the same pinheads turn around and submit legislation to increase California’s minimum wage by 25% to $10/hr so that it will become among the highest in the nation.  And all of this for the sake of helping the poor.  Go figger, because it’s for sure no progressive in Sacramento is capable of understanding the John Henry Law of labor.  (more here and here)

Whenever humans insisted on competing with advancing technology, they lost out big time.  And if they did that as a society, their society (tribe, kingdom, nation) lost out.  Millennia ago laborers who dragged or put rolling logs under platforms to transport heavy objects were fired when the wheel came along.  They had to go find something more productive to do.  So did laborers who operated foot powered water pumps when wind was harnessed to do the job, so did workers who pushed the grinding wheel around in circles to grind grain.  They were all fired when cheaper means came along.

And so difficult for limited liberal thinking is that making anything more expensive motivates those not so limited to seek and find cheaper means of doing the same thing, or even doing away with it completely.  For example, we have reported on new robot hamburger machines being introduced because people who can only ask ‘would you like fries with that?’ are being paid too much.  And yet the political hacks, demagogues, and others similarly afflicted are militating such wage increases under the rubric of ‘workers rights’.  But rights to do what? – to continue competing with cheaper available means of doing business.

Finally, returning to Fishtown and the education riven class divide that has now settled in across the country, we again see that much of it is systemic.  In short, it is baked into the social aspect of our economy.  Because of inherited cognitive deficiencies, more and more of the population is becoming permanently sidelined under the current collection of collective public policies.  These unfortunates are denied modern means of retraining and education made possible by new technologies because entrenched progressive interests refuse to submit to progress.  Time is short, and democracy is fragile.

[14sep13 update] Today’s WSJ had an article – ‘Wanted: Jobs for New Lost Generation’ – and a graphic on the employment picture for the young that adds to this piece on the class divide.

JoblessYoung

Posted in , , ,

91 responses to “The New Class Divide (updated 14sep13)”

  1. Bill Tozer Avatar
    Bill Tozer

    Good post Mr. Steele. How about us that are considered tasteless by our peers? If I did not have low class, I would have no class at all.
    Actually, the economy is driven on perception. Recall all those surveys 2-3 years ago that people answered although they were doing fine, but they thought the economy was in the tank. Like if a guy down the street loses his home to foreclosure, then it seems the economy is still hurting big time.
    Love how the LA Times goes straight to the 26 year olds making 14k a year. You would think that was the norm, not the exception reading The LA Times year after year. Still, the post makes a very valid point. People see themselves down in the dumps and aren’t stupid. They are down on the lower tier. Probably all their friends are as well. Birds of a feather and all that stuff. Working class used to mean blue collar types punching the time clock at the ole factory. Nowadays working class no longer means middle class or even working.
    An excellent post concerning the importance of the Rise of the New Upper Class….or rise of the skilled class. The Great Divide: skilled class and non skilled class. As plain as the nose on one’s face.

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  2. Douglas Keachie Avatar
    Douglas Keachie

    Still not getting it, are you? Is there anyone here younger than 45? I think not. We’ve all made money with our various skill sets, some a little, and some a lot, and for the most part, we are all close to coasting smugly home, unless there is a sudden and total collapse of the general economy.
    Do you see the same paths you followed still available to your children and grandchildren, and their friends, and especially their not quite at the top of the scale friends? I don’t see it at all.
    The cost of college in relationship to minimum wage is way out of whack. Berkeley cost $160 a year in 1964, and minimum wage was $1.25/hour. Compare that to $8/hr and $12,500 per year, and look at the difference in interest rates. The number of jobs may actually increase, but now the competition is planet wide for them. We’ve mislead our youth, and miss invested our tax dollars, at the behest of the corporations who manipulate the government via their lobbyists, for their own benefit, and not the greater good for the country.
    Were you 18 again, just how likely do you think make the grade, against the new planet-wide meritocracy? Would Greg’s slot at Harvey Mudd have gone to some kid from a rural village in India, who was just a wee bit smarter, and jump started himself via the net, and then po-goed right into Greg’s slot? What would Goodknight do, go into acting?

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  3. Douglas Keachie Avatar
    Douglas Keachie

    7,000 applicants for 135 jobs, at a call center, that is being set up to explain Obamacare, one of several in the state.

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  4. Bill Tozer Avatar
    Bill Tozer

    What would us old folks have done in today’s environment??
    Many of our friends here would have made it just fine in the long run. Those who are above the cut and not crybabies seem to prosper no matter what they endeavor to do. Sometimes you succeed, sometimes you fail (and we all fail in various times in our lives) but at the end of the day, they will be standing tall on the sunny side of the street.
    No different that those who lived through the Depression, and they had no unemployment insurance. Sure, we are in a new global economy. We have to compete. A winner never quits, a quitter never wins. I have 5 nieces and nephews that were home schooled, 4 entered community college at 16 and entered Cal at 18 and graduated after just 2 years. My sis and her husband are not rich folk by any stretch of the imagination. They told me the most expensive thing about paying for Berkley was the 1,500/clams per month they had to pay to rent a one bedroom apt near the campus and put 2 kids in each. Think both my sister and her husband barely squeaked through high school and neither ever attended college beyond a couple of classes at some community college. Scholarships paid for most of the tuition. The last 2 graduated in last past summer.
    One is a geologist working out in Texas, another getting her masters in psychology paid for by Teach America in Baltimore, another is already on her physicist doctorate (and working doing research for Cornell and partners on some atomic super collider) and the 4th is a bio chemist and has some 6 year contract doing stuff for the University of Virginia (which will pay for her doctorate). Yeah, Keach, cannot be done in 2013. Yeah right.
    The 5th kid has a pretty bad learning disability but fought hard with all her might and went to Channel Islands (the new state university) and just got her nursing certificate despite being not able to read until 2-3 years ago. She taught herself little tricks and kept it all to herself all these years. That is tackling challenges and overcoming obstacles.
    Tell me again, Mr. Keach, that it can’t be done.
    Guess I just don’t get it. You are right. Its impossible. We all might as well just throw out hands up in the air and not even try.

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  5. Douglas Keachie Avatar
    Douglas Keachie

    It can be done, but not everyone will make it through, and in far greater numbers than ever before in history, many talented and well educated kids will not find work that pays either emotionally or financially. One anecdotal family does not tell the whole story of the 21st century job market.

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  6. Gregory Avatar

    Sorry, Keach, nice try at a slime job.
    While UC Berkeley has gotten far more selective since you got in,
    (Test Scores — 25th / 75th Percentile
    SAT Critical Reading: 600 / 720
    SAT Math: 650 / 770)
    … that 610 Math of your drops off the CAL scale now…
    Mudd is about the same as it was,
    (SAT Math: 740 / 800)
    as is Cal Tech
    (SAT Math: 760 / 800)
    and MIT
    (SAT Math: 740 / 800)

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  7. fish Avatar
    fish

    HEADLINE: World to End in Fiery Solar Explosion…..women and minorities hit hardest

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  8. Bill Tozer Avatar
    Bill Tozer

    One anecdotal family does not tell the whole story.
    My, Keachie, that is exactly what the naysayer libs told Bill Clinton when he paraded a rather large black woman out with him and she told her story when he was pushing welfare reform. A success story at that. They called her an “anecdotal” story. Saw it with my own eyeballs on C-Span.
    Hey, I was told you CAN’T get here from there when I was 35, strung out on a $200/day habit, no skills, no friends, no health, homeless and close to death and a drunkard with a record. Way past 18. I know, I am just an anecdotal gnat. Cheer up, Keachie.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7YBeepShsgo

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  9. Douglas Keachie Avatar
    Douglas Keachie

    Hey Grumpy Cat, would you mind explaining how one can be “dropped off at 613” when the ranges you discuss are only those students between the 25% and 75% ? And suddenly you left out the sex breakdown, and can you deal with a 697 English, 99% for sure for guys, and do you think it is really sane to rate folks by one afternoon’s worth of effort on one test once in your life? BTW what were NMSQT scores? I sqeeked in there at 99% as well. Yes, without the paper in front of me, 613 is not 99%, but neither of us have defined, “closee.”
    Toser, you are indeed a great success story, and I’m sure SS will enable you to help your grandchildren through college, without them having to take out a loan. Does it make any sense for students to be accumulating worrisome debt or have to wash $12,500 of dishes per year at $8/hour, when they are supposed to be learning how to make a better country?
    BTW, how do you feel about the fairness factor wherein teachers who have state pensions via teaching, are forbidden from collecting ANY social security, regardless of how much they have made outside of their teaching jobs, during times when they were unemployed by District’s and either worked for someone else, or were self employed? Or, God forbid, started a business while teaching and maintained it on the side?

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  10. Douglas Keachie Avatar
    Douglas Keachie

    OK, have it your way. Everything is hunky dory, and automation, trans global trade in products and skills will not change anything, and nobody will be starving, and the Great Divide is nothing to worry about for anyone, it will not change a thing, and we are wasting time here having these discussions, when we ought to be out enjoying life or piling up more moolah, or feathering out respective nests, (in some cases building better foxholes and security systems).

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  11. Bill Tozer Avatar
    Bill Tozer

    Actually Keach, I feel if you pay into SS you should receive it. The fairness act don’t seem fair. Even for those that don’t pay much into SS through their working lives do receive a minimum amount. My Mom was an example. My older sister is another. Don’t think your situation is fair, but probably legal.
    Yes, teachers get screwed. Actually know a nice retired couple, both of them teachers. They have to do odd jobs (tutoring, stock trading on the home computer)to stretch their dollars in their golden years. They simply told me they are both retired teachers….that says it all.
    Ok, enough of the formalities. Look what they are doing to our kids!!! I will not hold you personally accountable for this one, lol.
    http://www.nationalreview.com/article/358552/california-protects-pedophile-teachers-kevin-d-williamson

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  12. Gregory Avatar

    Tozer, I liked your family anecdote. Your nieces and nephews couldn’t have gotten where they are now without mom and dad getting a lot of things right, and a concerted effort continuing over a number of years.
    Keachie has been bouncing from one Bright, Shiny Object (BSO) to another since I first encountered him ~15 years ago on a local listserv. The newest innovation that is going to blow all of us out of the water is online access to education that allows anyone anywhere to learn from the best. If you think about it, Johannes Gutenberg cracked that nut about 600 years ago, and about a century ago a Scot with sense built libraries just about everywhere (even Grass Valley) to enable the world’s knowledge to be available to everyone. Yes, the internet makes it easier to have a Carnegie library at the fingertips of anyone with a mobile phone, but what our resident ADHD afflicted educator hasn’t figured out is that to go from counting on your fingers to quantum mechanics takes years of focused study and the accumulation of sufficient intellectual capital. What’s needed isn’t a “jump starting”. There is no Royal Road to mathematics; there wasn’t in Plato’s time and there isn’t one now. Flitting to the web site du jour isn’t a panacea.
    BTW Keach, for someone who thinks the SAT unimportant you sure do obsess about it and inflate the meaning of yours. I checked, even for guys, your SAT-V rates a 95, which you would be happy with if you weren’t obsessed.
    No, I don’t think it’s fair that teachers got themselves excluded from Social Security. Yes, I think there should be a way for you to get it. Start by paying all of your back social security taxes on teaching income and have your past employers do the same, getting back some or all of their CalSTRS deposits. You’d get much less from STRS, maybe nothing. Is that fair? Not really, but that’s the unfair system the rest of us are subjected to.

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  13. Gregory Avatar

    “would you mind explaining how one can be “dropped off at 613″ when the ranges you discuss are only those students between the 25% and 75% ?”
    Because something like 85% of the kids accepted into Berkeley have a better math score than you had.
    Talk to a guidance counselor. “Billy, there’s a small chance UCB will accept you, but be sure to also apply to Davis and Merced and have Cal State Hayward as your backup”

    Like

  14. Douglas Keachie Avatar
    Douglas Keachie

    Well Greg, I merely want the same thing you get, based on the money I put into social security, independent of the money I put into teaching. You would penalize me for having a split career? You who complains so much about how hard it would be to become a teacher in mid-career?
    I’d also like to see no cap on social security taxes, so that if you are super wealthy, you put more in. Supposedly that would make SS solvent for a long time to come. I gather you have no problems with armed forces and political types getting both SS and their respective retirements. And for someone who is fascinated with what tier college folks went to, you are the one who is obsessed.

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  15. Gregory Avatar

    Your union got the SS deal they wanted, Keach; from the beginning CalSTRS was set up as a system instead of Social Security. Take it up with them.
    I’m not “obsessed” with what kind of college anyone went to, Keach, but it sometimes makes a difference (like when a polisci major from a 3rd tier has issue with a physics major from a 1st tier over an issue of physics and won’t listen to reason), and it’s been apparent over a number of years that your harassment over the college I went to has more to do with a very old sibling rivalry due to your brother being accepted to Stanford and getting a degree in engineering. He also is a pilot. I was a convenient alternate target.
    Sorry you didn’t make the Stanford grade, Keach. I’m even sorrier Cal wasn’t good enough to soothe your spirits a half century later.

    Like

  16. Bill Tozer Avatar
    Bill Tozer

    Mr. Gregory, in the atmosphere of full disclosure, my chemist niece is now doing stuff at Virginia Tech under the 6 years contact which includes them paying for her doctorate, not U of Virginia. Probably don’t matter, but when mentioning other people besides myself I want to accurate. Especially family.
    Keachie, I say Cheer up, not that everything is hunky Dory. Here is some red meat for you:
    http://finance.yahoo.com/news/poverty-stuck-15-percent-record-182148538.html
    And just for fun and to tweak your nose, try this one on for size:
    http://www.foxnews.com/opinion/2013/09/16/bush-ended-financial-crisis-before-obama-took-office-three-important-truths/

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  17. George Rebane Avatar

    BillT 205pm – that Fox News link is an important one that has not received any coverage from the lamestream for obvious reasons. The ‘crisis’ to follow was manufactured and managed as one that could not be wasted for the promised fundamental transformation of America.

    Like

  18. Ken Jones Avatar
    Ken Jones

    Tozer you cite an article from a couple Bush lackeys that were advising him on economics. Any wonder they claim Bush ended the recession? How convenient. Wouldn’t help their business to claim otherwise. Nothing more dishonest than Fox News and as lame as the term lamestream.

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  19. Gregory Avatar

    Thank you, Ken Jones, for a textbook ad hominem response. You found no error in the account, just the politics of the authors, respected professors at Stanford, and you completely misstate the article, which is that the financial crisis had been ended before Obama took office, not the recession.
    “All the major financial sector rescue policies were created and implemented during the last five months of the Bush administration” is an easily refuted statement. Just point out one that was started by Obama’s signature.

    Like

  20. fish Avatar
    fish

    Oooh…bad news boys! Bush didn’t end the financial crisis…neither did Obama.

    Like

  21. Gregory Avatar

    Tozer, any of the hard sciences are impressive choices, glad to hear your niece has a sweet deal. My own little chemist added an MA Physics last spring on his way to a PhD in chemical physics.
    One issue regarding top tier colleges that I am obsessed with, and maybe our own ADHD education apologist is misinterpreting this, is that any good public school system will enable a good student to gain the knowledge they need to gain admission to a top college and graduate. That requires solid language and if a math intensive subject is to be chosen, they’d better have a solid, rigorous mathematics curriculum in place from K all the way to 12, or they won’t be able to compete well enough to even get in the door.
    My finding fault with the GVSD is from my own experience when realizing how incompetent the district was in math and to a lesser extent, language instruction, and knowing the path through high school starts in the 1st grade. A former coworker of mine at USR, a talented engineer, refused to believe the weak elementary math program at the GVSD was a problem. ‘That’s all just simple stuff, the kids will be able to pick it up later’, then his daughter had a meltdown in Algebra… dad tried to help her and found she’d never even learned terms like “numerator” or “denomenator”. Yes, fractions are simple once you grok fractions, and then algebra can start to make sense. In fact, all of elementary arithmetic is pretty damn simple once you understand the fundamental concepts… after some solid algebra, geometry, trig, calculus. Each step is far from revolutionary but a discovery based curriculum where kids spend 12 years discovering things for themselves rather than from someone who already knows it backwards and forwards isn’t going to be preparing any kids for a CalTech, MIT, Mudd or the departments of math, chem, physics, or engineering at the likes of a UC Berkeley, which, by the way, by some measures has a more highly rated chemistry program than CalTech et al.

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  22. Bill Tozer Avatar
    Bill Tozer

    Fish, finally we disagree!! The article said the financial crisis (for all intents and purposes)ended by Dec. 2009 and also clearly pointed out the ensuing recession followed after Dec, 2009. The financial crisis has ended as in the sense you and I and everybody and their mother ain’t rushing down to join the run on the banks today. Nor are the big banks shuttering their doors.
    Now, I can see a crisis brewing in the muni bond insurance market as one of Detroit’s biggest bond insurers may go under after Detroit’s bankruptcy. Too much exposure. Think they would have learned the exact lesson after Montgomery County almost took them down. Cheaper ain’t always better. Too many eggs in one basket. Not the place for small bond insures to play. The big boys can absorb the hits better.
    As far as our dear friend Mr. Jones goes, he has a wee bit of a problem reading the black on the page instead of the white. If you really want to get our friend’s undies all knotted up, just post anything from Fox News.com. The messenger is shot at 300 meters. Gets him every time. And he claims Fox is lazy and intellectually dishonest, ROFLMAO. Oh, you point one finger forward, you got 3 pointing back. I love a good irony.

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  23. Gregory Avatar

    “Oooh…bad news boys! Bush didn’t end the financial crisis…neither did Obama.”
    There is no financial crisis at this time, though there are some really big potential crises that many are worried about, for good reason. If you disagree, could you be specific?
    If you’re in a hole, the first thing to do is stop digging. The Feds and the Fed continue to dig.

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  24. Ken Jones Avatar
    Ken Jones

    I read the article and stand by my statements. Don’t feel it necessary to explain to you Greg. Regardless of any comments I make you will take issue. It is what you do while making typical narcissistic statements. True to form. And no Tozer read the article just disagree. Fox News is both intellectually and morally bankrupt. I guess even a broken click is right twice a day so there might be a hint of truth. Won’t catch me citing MSNBC or CNN. Bias runs on both sides of the aisle. You can laugh your ass off, might take some time until you are finished. Regardless of any implication that Fox isn’t bias, I will take those citations as pure unadulterated BS.

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  25. Russ Steele Avatar

    Obama’s fairness plan is working, we are headed for common ground, misery for all.
    During the four years that marked President Barack Obama’s first term in office, the real median income of American households dropped by $2,627 and the number of people in poverty increased by approximately 6,667,000, according to data released today by the Census Bureau.
    That brings the total number of people in poverty to about 46,469,000, or about 15% of the population.

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  26. Bill Tozer Avatar
    Bill Tozer

    Ok, Mr. Jones. Fair enough. Putting words in the strawman’s mouth claiming that we believe Fox is not biased was fantastic!! Glad you slayed that one and we can all feel safer now. Boy, you beat that strawman to a bloody pulp. I believe the news division is a good source of infor.
    Just curious, Mr. Jones. You say you disagree with the article. Do you have any time in your busy schedule to expound on the disagreement. You disagree with the cause of the global meltdown, more specially the influx of foreign dollars into the USA few years before 2009 which created a lending bubble? You disagree that the Lehman Bros and AIG and banks were over leveraged and overexposed to mortgage back securities in the fall of 2009?
    You disagree with Tarp being temporary and all but 5 billion (out of 700 billion) has been paid back?
    Maybe you disagree with the premise that the financial crisis was over by Dec, ’09. Hint: Financial crisis means financial institution crisis, not personal finance crisis. Perhaps you confuse fiscal policy from monetary policy, or financial crisis from economic crisis.
    I do believe that Tarp triggered the OWS short lived self impoding movement, but it was sure entertaining while it lasted. A modern day Kumbaya song with lyrics, no? Even made 1%er a popular phrase. Best thing that came out of the Movement.
    So, you disagree. With some, one, or all words on the post??? Tanks, tanks a rock. Love, Bill

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  27. Ken Jones Avatar
    Ken Jones

    Bill my disagreement lies in the premise of the article. It is an opinion piece, written by two former Bush economic advisors. There is bias throughout the article. Fox has an issue with truthful reporting. I am far from confused Bill. I also have no interest in engaging in a pissing contest about the merits of the article. Made my point, moving on.
    http://www.projectcensored.org/11-the-media-can-legally-lie/

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  28. Gregory Avatar

    Sorry, KJ, but that piece wasn’t produced by Fox News. It was adapted by the authors from a work of theirs, “Observations on the Financial Crisis”, copyright by the Board of Trustees of the Leland Stanford Junior University
    http://www.scribd.com/doc/163852744/Observations-on-the-Financial-Crisis-by-Keith-Hennessey-and-Edward-P-Lazear
    So, rather than do your usual cheap hatchet work against Fox, treat it like a work from Stanford, which is where it originated. Try again.

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  29. Douglas Keachie Avatar
    Douglas Keachie

    Greg, by pretty much everyone measure, my life has been far more successful and rewarding than my brother’s. Someday I’ll fill you in on all the gory details, but he has not worked as an engineer since 1979, has no kids, no wife, and darns socks to sell at flea markets, and is quite dependent on the kindness of strangers. In short, he’s kind of a mental basket case, despite all the efforts of my aunt, my mom, my sister, my father, a whole succession of therapists, and myself to help him down through the years.
    You assume a hellova a lot about things you know nothing about. It shows in other areas as well. Yes he owns 3 aircraft, none of them in flyable condition, and he won’t sell them to those who would love to fix them up. They get moved about from time to time, as the storage places he rents shift in availability. Being a pilot, graduating Stanford, and being an engineer, are no guarantee of happiness or success in life. You are in a different universe than he, and for all my grumpy cat and Sheldon all grown up remarks, a much better one, and you’ve been tested far more than he ever was, and yet have gone on to live well anyway, despite you insane stereotyping of teachers. If their was such a thing as an occupational racist, you’d qualify.

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  30. Bill Tozer Avatar
    Bill Tozer

    Thank you very much, Mr. Jones, for answering my question concerning your disagreements found within the article, I think.
    The premise? Short and sweet answer. Tanks again, tanks a rock

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  31. Ken Jones Avatar
    Ken Jones

    Bill you are welcome.

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  32. fish Avatar
    fish

    There is no financial crisis at this time, though there are some really big potential crises that many are worried about, for good reason. If you disagree, could you be specific?
    I still maintain that the financial crisis has not ended but has merely been deferred. Under my definition, an ending of the financial crisis required evidence that the economy could stand on its own without constant attention from the federal reserve (manipulation of the bond market) and drunken sailor spending levels by Washington.
    If the fed follows through on its plans to taper and rates spike FEDGOVs ability to finance its largesse will be severely impaired. Since FEDGOV spending is the only thing keeping this economy from succumbing to rigor mortis, when it stops I think we will see 2008 – 2011 all over again but probably much worse!

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  33. Bill Tozer Avatar
    Bill Tozer

    Mr. Fish: Exciting times bro, exciting times.

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  34. fish Avatar
    fish

    Exciting times bro, exciting times.
    Bill at this stage, I will gladly forgo that sort of excitement

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  35. Bill Tozer Avatar
    Bill Tozer

    Mr. Fish. Indeed a double edged sword. Here is a long in the tooth article pointing out the good stuff about QE. Not too many big words. Don’t know if it is on topic (The Rise of the New Skilled Class), but it won’t make you eyes glaze over too much.
    Bottom line: I, too, worry about the cost of financing goberment largesse (is that a French word,largesse?). You don’t want to see the projections for how much of our budget will go to interest only in the sweet buy and bye to come.
    All in all, nothing will create jobs in our current fiscal and monetary philosophy/policy. The Big Firms are more likely to buy back shares, raise dividends, pay off debt, refinance debt and gobble up smaller companies than expand right now. Little organic growth I can see. Guess we are all still wobbly from that last Great White Knuckler at the amusement park. What a ride! Come on, lets do it again. I will even pay for your ticket. I double dog dare ya. It will be different this time.
    http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2013-09-17/bernanke-saves-companies-700-billion-as-apple-to-verizon-borrow.html

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  36. Douglas Keachie Avatar
    Douglas Keachie

    My work outside of teaching required that I pay into social security. If I have put in the minimum of 40 quarters or whatever it was, why should I be penalized for showing good initiative and going over and beyond the norm in the productivity department?
    You have no difficulty with veterans and politicians drawing from separate retirement accounts, what’s any different about teachers? I paid in, I expect to get out, even if it is the minimum amount available. Got a problem with that? Please explain. This is not work instead of teaching, this is work over and beyond teaching.

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  37. George Rebane Avatar

    DougK 108pm – we agree (hold the applause please)! If you pay into SS within a proviso that is totally separate from other arrangements for your retirement, then you should get your due, or at least be made whole.
    When I was an adjunct professor at CalState Northridge, STRS collected so little from my meager compensation (it was a labor of love) that they remitted my payments when I decided not to accept a permanent professorship. You should at least get your SS money back.

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  38. Gregory Avatar

    Doug, I am shocked (shocked!) that your brother is a “mental basket case”, but nothing you wrote refutes my claims. You’ve been casting stones in my direction for years for having degrees from private universities for years. Thanks for not disputing your attacks on me have been inspired by your brother’s BSEE and Stanford schooling, or that you are still smarting over getting rejected by Stanford.
    “And for someone who is fascinated with what tier college folks went to, you are the one who is obsessed.” -Keachie
    It isn’t because of the cachet of going to a well regarded school, Keach. For example, here’s one measure of Cal State Frisco (Frisch’s alma mater) applicants:
    http://collegeapps.about.com/od/GPA-SAT-ACT-Graphs/ss/san-francisco-state-admission-gpa-sat-act.htm
    Caltech’s:
    http://collegeapps.about.com/od/GPA-SAT-ACT-Graphs/ss/caltech-admission-gpa-sat-act.htm
    Here’s Mudd’s:
    http://collegeapps.about.com/od/GPA-SAT-ACT-Graphs/ss/harvey-mudd-college-admission-gpa-sat-act.htm
    Here’s MIT’s (ryan’s favorite):
    http://collegeapps.about.com/od/GPA-SAT-ACT-Graphs/ss/mit-admission-gpa-sat-act.htm
    I’ve no reason to doubt Frisch is above average for CSU ‘Frisco alums, but you might look at the plots I’ve linked to understand what it is about top tier schools that make them great… it’s the students and faculty they have attracted. I know a couple of CSU math professors, and they are not teaching the math they’d be teaching if they had more students capable of hacking a top tier school.
    I did take a few math and science classes at CSU Los Angeles in the ’70’s when I took a year off from Mudd to recharge my own batteries and bank accounts, and my swag is that maybe 10% of the CSU LA students were top students. From the average student, very low expectations are the norm.
    A CSU Northridge math prof once made the claim (in a closed email list I am on) that, in the math teaching methods class he once taught for prospective elementary school teachers, that the students, far from being ready to learn to teach elementary math, arrived with about a 4th grade understanding and all he could hope to do is bring them up to a 7th grade level by the end of the class.
    That’s dismal. That’s also a class of people destined to teach a thousands of bright eyed, eager children whose parents will have no clue how clueless their child’s teacher actually is.

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  39. Gregory Avatar

    GR, it’s a long established SSA rule: no refunds. They are made whole… SS payments are reduced because much of their income was income shielded from SS taxes.
    That was the deal from the beginning, and it’s been in place for many decades. I’m guessing Keachie didn’t bitch about it before he retired.
    Keach’s union brothers in the private sector (a few do exist) pay SS taxes on their income, and there is less in their pensions as a result. You can’t have it both ways.

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  40. George Rebane Avatar

    Gregory 551pm – well then, the two pension programs are not independent as was the proviso for my 122pm prescription.

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