Rebane's Ruminations
July 2013
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George Rebane

51st_StateEight counties in northeastern Colorado are looking at the possibility of becoming the nation’s 51st state.  Like so many idyllic locales in the country, Colorado’s population corridor along the eastern slope of the Rockies has been successfully invaded by progressives immigrating from places like California where they have managed to soil their own nest.  And like in California, huge sections of Colorado now suffer taxation and regulation without representation from Denver.  So, these eight counties are exploring ways to again become free to pursue their own ideas of life, liberty, and property.

RR readers are familiar with the Great Divide debate that is growing across America as socialism’s autocracy reaches its tentacles into the last lairs of self-reliance and entrepreneurship.  (See the Great Divide category link in the right panel.)  The Colorado Eight are just the latest jurisdictions to express their yearning for a future not destined for a coerced comprehensive collectivism.  (more here, and google ‘8 counties, Colorado’)

These eight counties may be on to something that can help preserve the Union, albeit in a restructured way that allows the Great Experiment bequeathed by our Founders to continue.  To the idea of breakaway counties forming their own state (a la West Virginia), I offer that restructuring could come about in certain cases where such counties abut a neighboring state more congenial to the culture and values of such disenchanted populations.  In the case of Colorado, these eight counties might consider appealing to Wyoming, if such a realignment is mutually attractive.

Here in California most of the more sparsely populated inland counties already stand raped by regulations from Sacramento and Washington.  We have little in common with the liberal legions that dominate the coastal areas, and the two big metropolitan regions of the state.  The new state of Sierra(?) is beginning to look better by the day.

There is no guarantee that such a restructuring will work because socialism is a disease powered by ideological evangelism – ‘We know what’s best for you, or else.’  And it spreads virally, appealing to the under-educated with promises of redistribution and through co-opting public education to manufacture more of the under-educated.  But then again, we can dream …

[31jul13 update]  For completeness, this contribution to RR’s Great Divide category was meant to elicit inputs from the Left that illustrate what drives such a notion of self-governance in the America of the 21st century.  As of this writing it has done so in spades.


While the main implication of the Great Divide has been some new form of the Union that may include restructuring itself as a confederation of groups of more ideologically cohesive states, some considerable number of Americans have also actively been advancing proposals for the secession of their several states.  Dr Walter Williams, the John M. Olin Distinguished Professor of Economics at George Mason University, writes in ‘Secession: It’s Constitutional’

Since Barack Obama’s re-election, hundreds of thousands of petitioners for secession have reached the White House. Some people have argued that secession is unconstitutional, but there’s absolutely nothing in the Constitution that prohibits it. What stops secession is the prospect of brute force by a mighty federal government, as witnessed by the costly War of 1861.

Secession has again emerged as an active topic of discussion on governance among Americans who reflect on the progress of the Great Experiment while we scale historical heights of ideological polarity as a nation.  In response to the pro/con commentaries and initiatives surrounding this issue, the Left has become apoplectic, as we will soon examine.  But before we get there I’d like to add to the record a thoughtful essay on the matter by historian Brion McClanahan in which he examines ‘Is Secession Legal?’

So, where are we on this current posting?  First, let’s recall that the topic I introduced above and wished readers to consider is not secession, but instead the alternative of restructuring the Union as is being variously proposed today, most recently in the reported eight counties of Colorado.  What I wanted to illustrate by this piece is the major force that motivates tens of millions of Americans to now openly talk about such initiatives and examine ways of achieving a more perfect Union.  And that force is the response of the Left which arises out of their profound ignorance about the workings of a democracy, especially as it has exercised itself over the life of this democratic republic.  An example of such a response has now presented itself in the comment stream.

While not being unique in any sense as evidenced by his like-minded brethren, I’d like to highlight the comments of Mr Steven Frisch on this topic (here and over the years elsewhere in these pages).  I pick on Steven Frisch because of the sustained virulence of his remarks (aka attacks) that illustrate the progressive mentality about the notion of the Great Divide.  As the CEO of a politically and ideologically active NGO, Mr Frisch is also viewed by many progressives hereabouts as being a leading intellect in their midst so that his words may be taken to represent a sort of pinnacle of thinking from that considerable quarter.

Nevertheless, from his remarks over the years we find that he is poorly read, for he keeps ignoring the national mood on the Great Divide and believes that the entire notion is a hare-brained idea cooked up by yours truly, alone on a forested ridge in our backwoods community.  As do all progressives looking for a fundamental transformation of America, he believes himself to be the true patriot and a cut above the rest.  From his commentary we see that he considers himself beyond enquiry about another’s arguments, and gratuitously supplies what others have really said and thought.  It is with those convenient strawmen that he likes to do battle, and over whom he then celebrates his victories.

His profound ignorance of American history and questions of constitutionality is about on par with the cohort he represents.  Samplings from such ignorance adorn his main thrust, which for reasons beyond specious is to attack the messenger for even daring to raise the topic of the Great Divide.

In his diatribe you will note that he has not understood the subject of the post, or what are the sentiments of the Coloradans in the eight counties.  In his auto-apoplectic state he instead quotes the oath taken by naturalized citizens like me, impugning that somehow introducing commentary and providing a discussion forum for what is going on in the country is treasonous and lese majesty to everything American.  And then ascending ever higher on the steps of hubris, he again invites me to go back to Estonia – “you can renounce your American citizenship and get the hell out of my country.”

Did you notice the “my country”?  In his froth he overlooks that he was born into MY country, for I was an American before him, and those like me worked hard to preserve and present him with a nation that he and his are now deconstructing.

But perhaps the real pinnacle of his ignorance is his sneering counsel to salve the grievances of the hundreds of thousands of American petitioners, including the Coloradans, by advising them, “I would have them vote George. I would have them vote.”  This as if these people have not been voting desperately all of their lives.

What the Frisches of America don’t understand is that carelessly tended democracies come to a time in their evolution at which a minority becomes permanently disenfranchised.  In short, a point is passed after which voting no longer works as the proponents and recipients of ever more comprehensive wealth transfer pogroms irrevocably tip the scales.  I believe, with accelerating technology, public education in the toilet, and systemic unemployment growing, that we may be past that point now.

What puts paid to this assessment is the unfettered control that the leftwing elites exert on an electorate with a huge and growing component of oblivians and the un/under-educated.  Nevertheless, there are at least one hundred million Americans who see the country as having gone terribly wrong, and who are desperately seeking ways to bring back the American dream which is no longer known nor shared by the majority.

Posted in , , , ,

213 responses to “The Great Divide through Restructuring? (updated 31jul13)”

  1. Paul Emery Avatar

    Fish
    It’s the same public consciousness in that Americans tend to think that their government is their friend and they tend to trust it instead of regarding it as their mortal enemy that will lie and enlist their children into senseless wars that are fought for profit.

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  2. fish Avatar
    fish

    It’s the same public consciousness in that Americans tend to think that their government is their friend and they tend to trust it instead of regarding it as their mortal enemy that will lie and enlist their children into senseless wars that are fought for profit.
    From everything I’ve seen here you seem to “think that government is your friend and tend to trust it instead of regarding it as their mortal enemy that will lie and enlist their children into senseless wars that are fought for profit when “free” healthcare is being discussed.

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  3. Michael Anderson Avatar
    Michael Anderson

    Fish, doctors don’t shoot back. That’s why.

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  4. fish Avatar
    fish

    Presumably your government wouldn’t be shooting at you either as one of the potentially conscripted…..but these days who knows.

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  5. Ben Emery Avatar
    Ben Emery

    Just an idea maybe we should stop talking about government in the United States as a living breathing entity and call it what it really is, Democratic and Republican Party Leadership. When ever we have a problem with “government” understand it is the Democrats and Republicans running the government, not the government. If we had a Libertarian and Greens as our big two we would have a much different type of government. Guns don’t kill people, people kill people. Government doesn’t kill, spy, oppress people, those who control the government do.
    Government can be any entity that is excepted as where the rules of society come. In Chicago during prohibition the rules came from the mob. In Palestine the rules come from Hamas, Afghanistan rules come from Taliban, United States of America rules come from the Democratic and Republican Parties.

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  6. fish Avatar
    fish

    Just an idea maybe we should stop talking about government in the United States as a living breathing entity and call it what it really is, Democratic and Republican Party Leadership. When ever we have a problem with “government” understand it is the Democrats and Republicans running the government, not the government. If we had a Libertarian and Greens as our big two we would have a much different type of government. Guns don’t kill people, people kill people. Government doesn’t kill, spy, oppress people, those who control the government do.
    Government can be any entity that is excepted as where the rules of society come. In Chicago during prohibition the rules came from the mob. In Palestine the rules come from Hamas, Afghanistan rules come from Taliban, United States of America rules come from the Democratic and Republican Parties.

    I feel like a dog whose just been shown a card trick.

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  7. Ben Emery Avatar
    Ben Emery

    Fish,
    Just trying out some angles.

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  8. fish Avatar
    fish

    Well your angles work out to: we are not a nation of laws but a nation of men (something I agree with).
    Why do you want to participate in this again?

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  9. Paul Emery Avatar

    Ben 03:22
    We should take this one step further.
    The Republicrats serve the Ruling Class and their purpose is to guarantee wealth for the investors that spend billions to keep them in power. Pretty simple. Governments have always been controlled by the ruling class with the short term exceptions such as revolutions or occasional diversions such as the American experiment of 1776. Things soon correct themselves and it’s business as usual. They do allow government to perform maintenance roles such as judical and infrastructure projects and health care (except in this country) but in general they design things to exercise their greed
    That’s why a third party will never emerge and why the occasionally enlist a Rand Paul types to give the illusion of change to appease the discontented (Tea Party brushfires for example.
    I challenge convince me otherwise.

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  10. Todd Juvinall Avatar
    Todd Juvinall

    PaulE, you should run for office.

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  11. Ben Emery Avatar
    Ben Emery

    Paul,
    Although glorified, the history of what the founders put forward isn’t this at all. It is argued that they just wanted to have their own country to be the ruling class but the facts don’t match that argument.
    The D’s and R’s have rigged the system that outside of a revolution there will never be a viable third party. I think it is time to dump the antiquated two party system and either embrace IRV or proportionate representation. Once again it will take a revolution for that to happen. The only way to dislodge one of the big two is by doing what the Tea Baggers have done, from within. Unfortunately they are funded and are fighting for what the plutocrats want, which is what we have today without the liberal social programs.

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  12. Paul Emery Avatar

    No chance I’m not a Republicrat like you are and I’d get squashed. Why don’t you give it a go again? You’re younger than Hillary, who will surely be our next President.

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  13. Al Avatar
    Al

    So Paul, @ 01 August 2013 at 04:08 PM
    Who are said ruling class? Give us some juicy names.
    International? Domestic? Who directs and pulls?

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  14. Paul Emery Avatar

    My 5:05 was meant for Todd
    Ben, in your view when did the ruling class reassert their control of this country after the revolution of ’76?

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  15. Bill Tozer Avatar
    Bill Tozer

    While I agree with parts of Paul E and Ben E’s points, I disagree on one element. Our country was founded on principles. Those principles are based on the government (being evil, power hunger and corruptible) SHOULD be as small as possible so the individual can thrive and pursue life, personal liberty, and Apple Pie as he/she see fit. The least intrusive government into one’s life is best. Thus, Mr. Paul and Mr. Ben, if the individual is allowed to thrive (without poisoning his neighbor’s well) of course some will become the ruling class (powerful) as some will thrive more than others. It all depends on one’s natural talents in their pursuits. Those natural talents and pursuits have always separated the wheat from the chaff.
    That is the idea. Having government step in to replace the natural ebb and flow of one rising and another declining is unnatural to say the least.
    I feel, despite your correct analysis that our present Great White Father in Washington is corrupt, entrenched, self serving (to say the least), a den of thieves, and packed full with pathological liars and harlots….despite all that somehow I get the feeling that your goals are to make the wealthy and successful and powerful poor. Or at least knock them down to peanut size.
    Anything that keeps one from rising to the top (within our laws) is unconstitutional. Thus our disagreements.
    I knew Max Foster. Been in his little 850 sq ft house on several occasions. He built that house with his wife and went bankrupt. He dusted himself off and still peddled eggs out of the back of his truck. He died a multibillionaire, still living in his little house. Got up every morning, put his coveralls on and went to the dairy plant to check his cottage cheese. If you saw him you would assume (as I did at first) he was an old maintenance man or custodian. Any thing that keeps anyone from becoming the next Max Foster of Foster Farms is coming from the government, not the individual.
    At one time everything you saw on the right going down the old highway belonged to Joe Gallo. Everything you could see on the left belonged to Max Foster. Neither one were political men. Been in Joe Gallo’s home as well. Both men gave to the Dems and the Republicans , each and every Dem or Republican running for office or seating in the chair. Didn’t matter to them. What mattered to the them and to the politicians was they were the largest employers in the area and it served them and their employees (and the employees’ families)and their communities well if they stayed in business.
    I get the feeling that one of you fine gentlemen think old Max (he died) or Joe should be taken to the woodshed because they are the enemy of us little people.

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  16. Todd Juvinall Avatar

    So PaulE, it appears you have decides t stay in the whiny class of Americans then. When I ran for Supervisor I was not a partisan. The partisan was my lib opponent. You would have favored her hands down. Anyway, I guess Americans will be stuck with those wascally republicrats since the big talkers like you are afraid to run and put your policies into the country. Amazing.
    Oh, and I already did my stint and then went home as the Founders envisioned.

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  17. Paul Emery Avatar

    Todd
    Todd, would you like to review with us your failed attempts at State politics or do you want me to do it?

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  18. Al Avatar
    Al

    Ben, Give us some names.

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  19. Todd Juvinall Avatar

    PaulE, please tell everyone about my attempt at state government.

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  20. Paul Emery Avatar

    Todd
    The details are too boring
    As I recall you we’re a contender but suffered an early knockout in the pre primaries. I know what it’s like. I was TKO’d in the first round of my final Golden Glove attempt in ’63.

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  21. Bill Tozer Avatar
    Bill Tozer

    Golden Glove boxer? Note to self: be nicer to Mr. Paul.
    This break up talk (secession) is nothing to be scoffed at. Think how suddenly the angry populace changed a nice summer recess for our Congresspersons into a very heated Summer of 2010, turning those boring meet and greet Town Hall meetings into front page news.
    This disenchantment with the status quo does not make the front pages anymore, but the undercurrent of anger and feeling that our government can do whatever it wants when it wants and the hell with you all has not gone anywhere. People know that they are being tread upon.
    The government follows these secession movements closely and takes them a lot more serious than the average Joe. They know it is totally constitutional and how widespread this feeling is. Perhaps that is why every single department of the US Bureaucracy is loading up on ammo. The entrenched have dug in and are practicing the “all men to battle stations” drills.

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  22. fish Avatar
    fish

    The government follows these secession movements closely and takes them a lot more serious than the average Joe. They know it is totally constitutional and how widespread this feeling is. Perhaps that is why every single department of the US Bureaucracy is loading up on ammo. The entrenched have dug in and are practicing the “all men to battle stations” drills.
    I still don’t see it happening….at least the Greeks took to the streets to get their governments attention…..Americans will show up waving tiny little American flags…..woo hoo!
    Hey Stevie as the most ardent defender of the status quo at Rebanes Ruminations why do you think there is so much resistance to secession at the federal level? Using your earlier argument it would be a net positive to let some of these freeloaders go their own way!
    Try and keep your response to that length that will keep my eyes from glazing over!

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  23. Bill Tozer Avatar
    Bill Tozer

    Mr. Fish, I honestly don’t see it happening either. If so, it will be just another Ruby Ridge with the press kept far, far, away. Yep, them Greeks know how to show their displeasure. And so do the Egyptians. The Egyptians just had their biggest anti-government rally in centuries and all our State Department does is send subtle messages to the Brotherhood that we stand with them, not the masses who were demonstrating against another authoritarian government. Think the press and White House called it a “military coup.” Did not take long for the Brotherhood’s true colors to show and did not take long for our current occupant of the White House to once again stand with the wrong side.

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  24. Ben Emery Avatar
    Ben Emery

    Paul,
    “Ben, in your view when did the ruling class reassert their control of this country after the revolution of ’76?”
    There has never been a time where a small few people didn’t control our government. Unfortunately the bankers always seem to be in the middle of the corruption and power mongering. There was a glimpse of what a democratic representative government could look like during the depression through the 60’s. I heard this once on a political talk show. Germany had Hitler and we had FDR when our countries were in the toilet.
    Attributed to Mayer Amschel Rothschild
    “Give me control of a nation’s money and I care not who makes the laws.”

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  25. Bill Tozer Avatar
    Bill Tozer

    Good morning Brother Ben. I read this opinion piece by libertarians and thought you might enjoy it. Sounded like they had a nice debate. Fun discussion.
    http://www.foxnews.com/opinion/2013/07/31/will-america-will-soon-fall-as-just-like-rome-did/?intcmp=trending

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  26. Paul Emery Avatar

    Well spoken Ben 8:43 AM. One only needs to look at the recent economic debacle to see that the Democrats kept the same economic players in the game that lapped up the big bucks when things crashed in ’08. Bernanke was chairman of President George W. Bush’s Council of Economic Advisers before Bush appointed him on to be chairman of the United States Federal Reserve and was confirmed for a second term as chairman on January 28, 2010, after being re-nominated by President Barack Obama. Another example is Tim Geithner. creater of TARP and a favorite of the banksters who kept things tidy for his pals during his reign as Treasure chief under Obama. Now Obama is talking about super insider Larry Summers taking over the Fed. I suggest reading this link to Bill Black, who wrote “The best way to rob a bank is to own one” for a summary of how there is little difference whether there is a Republican or Democrat in office when it comes to protecting the Banksters who made billions and paid themselves bonuses while the country plunged into recession.
    This, my friends is the ruling class in action.
    http://www.pbs.org/moyers/journal/04032009/transcript1.html

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  27. Ben Emery Avatar
    Ben Emery

    Here are more examples of our fascist state or small ruling corporate class. Monsanto is almost in complete control of the USDA and FDA.
    Another Monsanto man in a key USDA post? Obama’s ag policy’s giving me whiplash
    http://grist.org/article/2009-09-24-usda-obama-monsanto-organic/
    Monsanto and the FDA: Two crime families working a trillion-dollar hustle
    http://www.naturalnews.com/039315_Monsanto_FDA_crime_families.html
    Winning our Hearts and Minds? Monsanto and Big Food Pull out the Big Guns
    http://www.organicconsumers.org/articles/article_28005.cfm
    Monsanto hired mercenary Blackwater to infiltrate anti-GMO groups
    http://www.digitaljournal.com/article/297701#ixzz2apd1fEE5

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  28. Ben Emery Avatar
    Ben Emery

    Here are more examples of our fascist state or small ruling corporate class. Monsanto is almost in complete control of the USDA and FDA.
    Another Monsanto man in a key USDA post? Obama’s ag policy’s giving me whiplash
    http://grist.org/article/2009-09-24-usda-obama-monsanto-organic/
    Monsanto and the FDA: Two crime families working a trillion-dollar hustle
    http://www.naturalnews.com/039315_Monsanto_FDA_crime_families.html
    Winning our Hearts and Minds? Monsanto and Big Food Pull out the Big Guns
    http://www.organicconsumers.org/articles/article_28005.cfm
    Monsanto hired mercenary Blackwater to infiltrate anti-GMO groups
    http://www.digitaljournal.com/article/297701#ixzz2apd1fEE5

    Like

  29. George Rebane Avatar

    PaulE 948am – interesting that Moyer’s guest Black blames all the banking problems of granting “liars loans” on Bush when it was the Democrats in Congress that demanded such loans be granted wholesale so that that the financial underclass could own their own homes. And Moyer’s usual nostrum is to replace the current bureaucratic excesses with even bigger and more comprehensive bureaucracies. To me Moyers has always played the role of the liberal curtain behind which we should not look to see the advance of the progressive agenda. But the man does have his devoted constituency. Oh well.

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  30. Paul Emery Avatar

    George
    If you read Bill Black at all you will find that he equally blames Obama for our current situation. You must agree that the “banksters” profited immensely from whatever course the government took and kept their own in office and prevented any serious indictments against any insiders during either administrations reign. Ruling class?

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  31. Ben Emery Avatar
    Ben Emery

    George and Paul,
    Bill Moyers and Amy Goodman both have a passion towards the truth. Amy does it from the people themselves and Moyers does it through players in a given field.
    This is why I push back against the Obama administration being anything about progressive policies. His administration is anti progressive “third way” personified. It is disgusting. We have been seeing this play out in the US since the early 90’s. Conservative economic policies, liberal social policies, and an authoritarian military/ security/ drug polices. All of which progressives and libertarians can’t stand.

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  32. Gregory Avatar

    Short sighted Ben doesn’t realize that a “regulatory capture” has a long history. Milton Friedman wrote about the railroads capturing their regulatory agency well over a century ago; it’s what happens when well meaning reformers put a regulatory mechanism in place to fix a real or perceived problem, and when they move on to the next problem those who have an interest in the subject begin merging into the agency. Nothing sinister; there are jobs to be had both in the industry and among the regulators and it tends to be people with knowledge of the industry that gets both sorts of jobs.
    In the end, we get regulators who look a lot like the regulated.
    The “liar’s loans” were made because the folks making the loans weren’t keeping them like in the good old days; the Mr.Potter’s and the Building and Loans both made loans to keep for their own portfolios. The modern “liar’s loans” were made because the Government Sponsored Entities Fannie and Freddie didn’t care because they were just mincing the bad paper to sell as “securities” that the world bought because of the false sense they had the good faith of the US government backing them.
    Let’s not forget: subprime mortgages started off as a Clinton administration pilot program to help the working poor get on the real estate wealth escalator and was pushed by the Clinton administration and mostly Dem congresscritters (like Dodd and Frank) into operation both Countrywide and countrywide.

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  33. Paul Emery Avatar
    Paul Emery

    Black on Obama
    BILL MOYERS: To hear you say this is unusual because you supported Barack Obama, during the campaign. But you’re seeming disillusioned now.
    WILLIAM K. BLACK: Well, certainly in the financial sphere, I am. I think, first, the policies are substantively bad. Second, I think they completely lack integrity. Third, they violate the rule of law. This is being done just like Secretary Paulson did it. In violation of the law. We adopted a law after the Savings and Loan crisis, called the Prompt Corrective Action Law. And it requires them to close these institutions. And they’re refusing to obey the law.

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  34. Todd Juvinall Avatar

    Reading Ben and Paul E I would guess they should be Ayn Rand and Bill Buckley adherents. Also, Tea Party people as well.

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  35. Paul Emery Avatar

    I like Bill Buckley and have many friends who are in the Tea Party. We have lively discussions but part ways on agreement when they propose the Republican Party as a savior of our rights and freedoms.

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  36. Walt Avatar

    Those “Bush wars” mentioned above,, must not be all that bad since “O”
    has carried on with them, and even started new ones. You know,,, those “not” wars
    he got us into without Congressional approval? At least Bush DID get said approval,
    and seated LIBS voted for actions as well.
    OK,,, It’s the in house revisionist’s turn…
    A person here ( who shall remain nameless) has pals in China.
    My Son received a “vacation” to China through his employer. By the time he got back,
    he had a new respect for the freedoms right here on U.S. soil.
    I wonder if the resident globe trotter can back with the same perspective, or was more than happy with China’s way of doing things.
    Did you get one of those yellow satchels with Mau and “O” pictured side by side?
    Those are a hot item with the devout Commies.

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  37. Gregory Avatar

    “We have lively discussions but part ways on agreement when they propose the Republican Party as a savior of our rights and freedoms.” – Paul
    One can argue with a straight face that compared to Democrats, they are.
    “Todd, the reason the Democrats have a super majority is because the California Republicans screwed the pooch.” -manderson
    No, the reason Democrats have a supermajority is the massive cash flow from California public employee union dues into Democratic causes from state offices down to elected dogcatchers. At maybe $500 a head per year on average into political causes, it’s a huge advantage that has been enjoying positive feedback growth rates since Jerry Brown Version 1 granted collective bargaining power over wages and benefits to public employee unions. This has financed the electing of Democrats who favor more public spending and more union members making more money and donating more to unions via compulsory payroll deductions electing more Dems… and the road goes ever on. Until it can’t.
    The Feds might bail out Detroit. They won’t be able to bail out California when our debts become due and can’t be paid.

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  38. Gregory Avatar

    Walt, you might be amused by this. Working at a local R&D office that had a few Chinese engineers nearing middle age who got out. For giggles, I brought in my official ChiCom “Quotations from Chairman Mao” that I bought in a college bookstore in the ’70’s. I figured since a billion people were studying it diligently and millions had been killed because of it, it should be read.
    Let me say here that Chairman Mao is to philosophy as Rod McKuen is to poetry. It’s amazing folks took it seriously, and wouldn’t have were bullets and food not involved in it’s PR, something the running dog lackeys of the Bourgeoisie just don’t get…
    My coworkers couldn’t believe it! ‘Where did you get it? In English? It looks just like the ones we had to have!’
    They’d never seen the translation. It brought back memories, and not good ones.

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  39. Todd Juvinall Avatar

    PaulE, you said you would tell everyone about my run for state government (like a threat, too funny) and when I said go for it you respond it is too boring. Cheap.
    Also, the Tea Party has people you are pals with but you part ways on them because they want the R’s to carry their positions? A bunch of hooey. The democrats will NEVER carry anything the TP want so if you want some change you have to go where it might happen. And, you whine about the R’s and then bask in the turmoil between the TP members and the old time R’s. So why is that PaulE? Whine about the R’s and dislike the TP but relish the fighting between them and the R’s? I think you may need medication. LOL!

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  40. Paul Emery Avatar

    Todd
    I’m tired of embarrassing you. No one remembers Bernie Rickter anyway. Even his coat tails couldn’t advance you out of the bush leagues. Home town boy does bad.

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  41. Paul Emery Avatar

    George
    Here’s a couple of questions for you and I’m very interested in your view. Do you believe we have a ruling class in this country? Who are they and how do they influence our government?

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  42. Todd Juvinall Avatar

    PaulE, obviously you are fascinated with me because you are always writing me and about me. I feel giddy with your attentiveness. Thanks.
    Regarding Richter. He was major proponent of Prop 209 and kept it alive until Ward Connerly came on board and they took it to victory. I am sure you opposed it and were for government giveaways that it took away. Also, since you have no idea about Bernie I will fill you in a tad on the primary of 1992. He was constantly talking in the debates about the need to help the poor inner city black kids and we all could not understand why in the north he thought that was a issue for people to be concerned about. So, since you belittle Bernie I guess you are a hater of the black inner city kids. Too bad.
    Regarding coattails? I have no idea what you are talking about. In the Assembly race I spent the least in money but finished third out of seven. So you are right, I could not advance up.
    I think you are simply jealous of my life and can’t shake me out of tour head. Too funny.

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  43. Gregory Avatar

    “Do you believe we have a ruling class in this country? Who are they and how do they influence our government?”
    Paul, if you think it of interest, why not state what you think and let George or anyone else respond?

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  44. Paul Emery Avatar

    Gregory
    I’m sure George has his view on the question.
    It’s an interesting question Gregory. What’s your view? I say follow the money. Who stands to make the bucks by investing in influencing government. I say banksters, military investors and oil companies for a start. Billionaires get there because they can use their money to create an edge to their advantage. Tie it in with international corporations that have no allegiance to any country and you see why we are where we are today. Democracy for sale and sold. That’s why we are stuck in a two party system that is really one party with two wings carrying a big fat bird.

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  45. Paul Emery Avatar

    Let’s see Todd Bernie was all for helping inner city black kids, I didn’t particularly care for Bernie therefore I hate inner city blacks. Really Todd! That’s amazing logic. I think you had too much exposure to Mercury when you were a kid mucking around the river.
    Todd 06:01 PM “Oh, and I already did my stint and then went home as the Founders envisioned.”
    I was making the point that you withdrew from political life not out of choice, as you implied but because you had no where to go. If you would have had your way you would have become a career politican like your idon Tom McClintock.

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  46. Paul Emery Avatar

    sp: idol Tom McClintock.

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  47. Todd Juvinall Avatar

    PaulE, now how do you know if I wanted to be a career politician? Were you listening at the door? What a hoot! I did not make the cut for Assembly and a good man Bernie Richter won. I went on the next year, 1993 and kicked you and your pals ass for a number of years on your quest to Federalize our South Yuba by defeating you time and again. All that with CABPRO, and you know I did, so admit it. LOL! No PaulE, I stayed home and decided to do local private sector stuff unlike you and your ilk. Try harder in making it up, too funny.
    I see you still never answer anyone. You disparaged Bernie Richter and then can’t take the heat when your ass is showing for your attitude. SOP for you.

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  48. Gregory Avatar

    “Do you believe we have a ruling class in this country?”
    Not with definitions of “ruling” or “class” that Marx (Karl or Groucho), Engles, or even Ben would agree with.

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  49. George Rebane Avatar

    PaulE 337pm – By Marx’s definition all nations that have some version or vestige of privately owned means of production have a ruling class (the capitalists). As to how concentrated this is or how much power they wield is a matter of debate. The freer the markets, the less power (‘power elite’) members of such a ruling class have. That is why since ancient days the proto-capitalists have always toadied up to the state to enforce diktats which give them exclusivity in one form or another to stifle competition and mangle the markets. And that is why we today witness big corps and other collected interest groups doing the same thing. But the important notion here is that such capitalists find the easiest bedfellows in collective forms of governance that already are predisposed to having an elite decide/delimit how their populations must live.
    Libertarian governments of the kind our Founders sought to approximate are hard to control and deliver little benefit to those who seek to mangle the markets, why? simply because such governments control very little of the money flows in the economy. Once government starts controlling large cash flows, then corruption of markets follows very quickly abetted by those capitalists who got there first and seek to maintain their primacy. But then, we all know that.

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  50. Paul Emery Avatar

    So George that’s a good explanation as to why we have essentially a one party system that exercises little drama every four years to try to exhibit differences so people think they have options. Obama’s handling of the economic mess left after Bush 2 went back to Texas is a good example. It’s like a professional wrestling match where they pretend to be adversarial to put on a good show but actually end up splitting up the pot after the match.
    The “Libertarian” government referred to in your 11:07 will never come to pass because it would upset the control held by those with the money to control the election process.
    Most of the differences between the so called political parties are over social issues such as immigration, abortion, gay marriage etc, which have little effect on the flow of money. As long as those topics dominate the conversation the corporate raiders and thriving .05% will be happy. The passion of the TP’s was a bit threatening for a while but the nomination of Romney, as a hedge bet should Obama stumble, put them in their places. Ron Paul ruffled things a bit but his candid statements about foreign policy ended that flurry and most of his Republican supporters came home supported Romney. The Libertarian and Green parties were banished by the corporate controlled Presidential Debate Commission so they never had a chance to have enough exposure to upset things as alternative parties.
    My view is cynical and I see little hope it will change in my lifetime and will challenge anyone who claims otherwise .

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