Rebane's Ruminations
July 2013
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A nation ignorant and free, that never was and never shall be.  Thomas Jefferson

George Rebane

Here’s a notion that should set progressive hearts palpitating, perhaps even inducing a case or two of apoplexy.  Should citizens deemed mentally (not physically) incapable of caring for themselves be granted a full franchise in a republican democracy?

In these pages this notion has risen implicitly over the years, and most recently occurred to me again during a thread on food stamps that developed in the comment stream of ‘Mindbending Marijuana’.  There I was asked whether I supported foodstamps, the 80% hidden component that has historically been included in past farm bills, and that was recently excised from the current House version going through Congress.  I repeat an edited version of my reply.



I don't know what it takes to qualify for today's food stamps program. While I support a level of government (collective) financial assistance to individuals, I favor a comprehensive cash payment rather than separate payments for food, healthcare, housing, … . I want the individual to be responsible for spending the welfare money as he sees fit.

For government to determine your needs and allocate your transfer payments for you is more than demeaning in my eyes.  As such, it is also society's judgment on your mental condition.  I feel that if you are incapable of 1) correctly allocating your monies (a mental task) to care for yourself, and 2) remain in a chronic situation in which you are under the care of others, then that should impact your franchise as a citizen in some significant manner. In short, a deficient mentality affects all of one's decisions, and not decisions arbitrarily assigned to be faulty in these domains but perfectly good in those domains.

Over the last forty some years we have witnessed the political purchasing power of welfare in all of its various forms.  The most obvious aspect and one that has a growing momentum is transfer payments that now seeks to have government manage our healthcare needs.  The summary effect of all these ‘benefits’ is the gathering and exploitation of the mendicants who see themselves as the beneficiaries of certain political ideologies and politicians.  I am on record for saying that we have already passed the tipping point on our democracy tilting toward socialism as a waypoint to autocracy.

But let’s consider that I am wrong, that through some restructuring of how we voters choose our representatives we can avoid our apparent fate.  How do we do this?  I suggest that we reconsider the matter of voting franchise and how it might be exercised in our republic.  And for that I pose the following.

Consider the working mother of a contemporary family.  She holds down a respectable job, raises her children, is a functional life partner to her husband, keeps the house and its accounts, volunteers/participates in community activities, and manages to stay up on the issues that affect her community and nation.

Then take someone whom society deems to be sufficiently mentally impaired that they cannot be trusted to manage their own budget, cannot spend appropriate sums for their divers needs like health, housing and food even if the money is given to them, cannot hold a job, and perhaps has other cognitive deficiencies like marginal literacy and comprehensive innumeracy which prevents even a cursory understanding of the issues facing community and country.  In short, society has already put in place structures and organizations that are required to maintain this person from destitution or resorting to crime.  And these funds are doled transfer payments supplied by the likes of the woman described above.

These two people are as different as can be in the sense of how they relate to their source of sustenance.  One is productive and proficient, and the other is existentially inept.  Yet when they enter their respective voting booths, they are deemed by the state to be equal – the inept getter’s vote can and will effectively cancel the provider’s vote.  (We note that we already discriminate in franchising certain kinds of citizens – e.g. children and the institutionalized insane.)

Bryan Caplan described what this kind of equality (as opposed to equality in front of the law) has already brought about in The Myth of the Rational Voter: Why Democracies Choose Bad Policies (2007).  This scholarly work has been assiduously ignored by all public figures of every political stripe.  I offer it again as a starting point in reconsidering the franchise of citizens in a sustainable democratic republic.

[15jul13 update]  Asked to offer my own thoughts on a citizen qualifying for the voting franchise, I offer the following thoughts as a rough starting point in order to invite thoughtful criticism and/or constructive edits.  First a couple of observations –

•    Current suffrage is not universal; we already deny the vote to children, felons, and the institutionally insane, among others.  The under-aged and insane are presumably prohibited because they don’t have the mental capacity to adequately understand and process the information required to make a reasoned decision, and therefore may fall prey to being influenced by others to vote against their best interest, or to amplify another’s vote.
•    The seminal assumption that underelies the vote, is that the voter understands what he’s voting for when he submits his ballot.  In other words, that it is a duly considered statement of freely expressed individual preference.

My nostrums on who should be allowed to vote are conditioned entirely on the second point above – that the voter has the capacity to independently acquire minimal information upon which to base his vote (please note that he doesn't even have to demonstrate such understanding).  And to give greater assurances of that capacity, a set of proxy skills should be demonstrated by the prospective voter before being granted the franchise.  The set of exact requirements, as determined by the several states, should then be based on the following points.

•    Only citizens may vote.
•    The vote shall not be denied any citizen on the basis of race, gender, sexual orientation, educational background, ownership of property, status of wealth/indebtedness, or condition of un/employment.
•    No one institutionalized for mental or criminal reasons (including being on parole) shall be granted suffrage.  However, once being released, full voting privileges will be restored upon passing the applicable literacy/numeracy test described below.
•    Voters shall pass a basic literacy test (similar to drivers’ license tests) before granted suffrage, and periodically (say every ten years) thereafter.  Voters must demonstrate ‘functional literacy’ as defined by the Dept of Education (see NAAL, the longitudinal survey of adult literacy conducted by the National Center for Educational Statistics).  The test shall also include and/or be given within the context of the informational requirements demanded of naturalized citizens as determined by the federal government.
•    Voters shall demonstrate minimal numeracy (‘numerical literacy’) skills in basic arithmetic (add, subtract, multiply, divide) including understanding what is a percentage.  Again see the NCES longitudinal survey.
•    There is no limit to the number of times the test may be taken.
•    The voter eligibility status will be reflected on a person’s driver’s license, state issued ID, or other such commonly carried form of identification that can be presented to poll or voter registration workers (or its PIN entered for online voting or by snail mail).

Thoughts?

Posted in , ,

122 responses to “Equality Questioned (updated 15jul13)”

  1. Gregory Avatar

    Just build in a combined literacy and IQ test into the ballot itself… Make the Butterfly Ballot the law of the land for every election.
    All the wet dreams of thwarting the mentally challenged and dependent classes from voting are doomed to failure because they can’t pass Constitutional muster, and it’s a waste of time to dream about them.

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  2. Paul Emery Avatar

    Pretty important question Todd. Who do we give the responsibility of developing curriculum ? It would seem that Conservatives and Libertarians would want it local as possible. I lean in that direction myself.

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  3. Ben Emery Avatar
    Ben Emery

    If I had to go off of the commentary here most wouldn’t pass a Constitutional test. Right Wing Think Tank and NRA interpretation are stretches to say the least and I would say outright lies in many cases.

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  4. George Rebane Avatar

    BenE 318pm – Again, without a referent it’s hard to tell what you are talking about. Small children start out assuming the content of their thoughts are available to all, and have an epiphany when they discover that is not the case. Then they begin to alter their speech to communicate more effectively. Here to attempt to decipher your brevities requires reading all previous comments, assigning possible associations, remembering them, and then going to the trouble of formulating a response to a possibly wrong connection. I decline the effort.

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  5. fish Avatar
    fish

    Right Wing Think Tank and NRA interpretation are stretches to say the least and I would say outright lies in many cases.
    You are undoubtedly correct Ben. Perhaps one of the many unbiased organizations under the Soros umbrella or as an alternative I’m sure the NEA can be counted upon to develop something fair and relevant to the civics with which all Americans should be familiar.

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  6. Gregory Avatar

    Paul, the classic common school was wholly a local enterprise, helped along by an unfortunate truth that nursing and teaching were about the only two fairly professional occupations completely open to bright women up until the mid 20th century.
    A problem with “as local as possible” in our current public schools is it isn’t really “local” when unionized teachers are the 600 pound gorillas in the mist, with statewide and even nationwide union agendas that aren’t down with actually holding teachers accountable for adequate yearly progress of their students in the aggregate.
    Hey, how about turning over curriculum standards nationwide to an unaccountable 501c3 in Washington, DC with strong corporate ties to textbook and test providers. Does that sound good to anyone? Does everybody realize that’s the situation as of now?

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  7. Todd Juvinall Avatar

    I am back with my new desktop and Windows 8. Yikes. Forgive my errors.
    Greg you are the truth teller. The unions for public employee jobs have to be outlawed. Each “local” school filled with union employees dances to the instructions of the state and national chapters. So local really isn’t local.
    I say we start with my idea to make America a yearly learning experience with tests of course. I will develop the criteria along with George, Greg and PaulE and it will become a national part of every school. Chief Justice John Roberts will certainly find it constitutional since we will add a one cent tax to the curriculum.
    So, what do you say? Let us do this and make it a requirement for all chilln starting after say 2020?

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  8. Paul Emery Avatar

    Todd
    Sounds like big government to me. National program hmmmmm

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  9. L Avatar
    L

    Let’s try again. In my opinion, the minimum standards required of a would-be voter would be the ability to read and understand simple English, and a basic understanding of our government and how it is structured = literacy + civics. We require this (at least so far) of citizenship applicants. Is it asking too much that the native-born should at least meet this rather minimum standard? L

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  10. George Rebane Avatar

    L 829pm – could you please differentiate your approach with what I have written in this post’s 15jul13 update. Thanks.

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  11. Michael Anderson Avatar
    Michael Anderson

    I’ll take a crack at it…
    • Only citizens may vote.
    Check.
    • The vote shall not be denied any citizen on the basis of race, gender, sexual orientation, educational background, ownership of property, status of wealth/indebtedness, or condition of un/employment.
    Check.
    • No one institutionalized for mental or criminal reasons (including being on parole) shall be granted suffrage. However, once being released, full voting privileges will be restored upon passing the applicable literacy/numeracy test described below.
    Parole too? I am currently of the belief that convicted felons should be allowed to vote, once they have done their time. Why can’t people vote while on parole?
    • Voters shall pass a basic literacy test (similar to drivers’ license tests) before granted suffrage, and periodically (say every ten years) thereafter. Voters must demonstrate ‘functional literacy’ as defined by the Dept of Education (see NAAL, the longitudinal survey of adult literacy conducted by the National Center for Educational Statistics). The test shall also include and/or be given within the context of the informational requirements demanded of naturalized citizens as determined by the federal government.
    Unconstitutional, as mentioned by GG. Non-starter. Fuhgeddaboudit.
    • Voters shall demonstrate minimal numeracy (‘numerical literacy’) skills in basic arithmetic (add, subtract, multiply, divide) including understanding what is a percentage. Again see the NCES longitudinal survey.
    Fuhgeddaboudit.
    • There is no limit to the number of times the test may be taken.
    Not applicable, since this will never happen.
    • The voter eligibility status will be reflected on a person’s driver’s license, state issued ID, or other such commonly carried form of identification that can be presented to poll or voter registration workers (or its PIN entered for online voting or by snail mail).
    Unconstitutional. Fuhgeddaboudit.
    Michael A.

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  12. Michael Anderson Avatar
    Michael Anderson

    One last thought…
    Voting rights, privilege, duty, and process are the least of this country’s worries. The only reason that you, George, dredged this subject up from the Pit and Pendulum is because you see the handwriting on the wall: tomorrow’s voters are not from Estonia, they are from Latin America, and they vote overwhelmingly Democratic! You and your belief systems are totally hosed!!
    What we REALLY should be worrying about is how our ancient political system, which was invented when the steam engine was king, is now hopelessly broken. This is a good place to start on that subject: http://www.nytimes.com/2013/07/16/opinion/bruni-dcs-pit-of-despair.html?hp
    Sorry George, this is how it’s all gonna play out: the deeply tanned people will continue to nullify your vote in America, and our political system will either collapse and be replaced, or it will be reformed into a more socialist, egalitarian, and less-warlike/more kinder nation.
    You will be forced to sit on the sidelines and watch your world crumble. You had it great in the 20th century, what with your fat gov’t cost-plus contracts. All that is gone now. Welcome to a 21st century that you can either learn to embrace, or die promulgating nonsense that the younger generation uses as starter material for their comedy skits.
    A third alternative is for you to go to Burning Man, where you will actually receive an education of which you have never before experienced. Gordon will be glad to fly you over there, and I personally guarantee that you will come away with a different perspective on the world. I even have a bike that you can use.
    M.

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  13. Michael Anderson Avatar
    Michael Anderson

    And here’s a gratuitous piece that you will certainly enjoy — “In 1954, 96 percent of American men between 25 and 54 years old worked. Today, 80 percent do. One-fifth of men in their prime working ages are out of the labor force.”
    http://www.nytimes.com/2013/07/16/opinion/brooks-men-on-the-threshold.html?hp&_r=0

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  14. Bill Tozer Avatar
    Bill Tozer

    Mr. Anderson. RE: Your last post. All the more reason for suffrage to be granted to an educated citizenry whom the voter can reason, understand the Constitution and vote themselves in leaders who know how to get America back to work. Of course this may fall under the category of duty rather than suffrage.

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  15. George Rebane Avatar

    MichaelA 1226am++ – First thanks for the extended comments and frank rebuttals. Reading them a number of points come to mind.
    • I’m sorry that you are so unfamiliar with RR’s contents. Your “gratuitous” information about the trends in America’s workforce demonstrates that you are unaware that systemic unemployment has been a major theme in these pages. And your tutorial on the future face of America confirms it. As they say, you enjoy carrying coals to Newcastle.
    • Your ideas about the Constitution and constitutionality seem to be sclerotic in a one-sided manner. As a liberal you and yours have had no problem trashing and end running the document when it has served your collective aims, but then you see it as a brick wall when a new idea comes along that may actually restore and preserve the liberties and individual opportunities of former years.
    • There is nothing that I have proposed that is any more impossible to implement in our Republic than that which has already been implemented by amendment and judicial rulings (I leave out executive end-runs). Your arguments stand on improbability not unconstitutionality; and there I agree with you, as again these pages have shown over the years.
    • As with most liberals, you continue viewing the matter of the voting franchise on the basis of race and ethnicity, even when any new proposal does not involve those factors.
    • Your view of America as being in an asymmetric stasis, seeing progress only in the direction of socialism and bigger government is acknowledged. That future is one that RR rails against.
    • You and yours are in the majority, no doubt about it. The tipping point has been passed. The only surprise you may have coming is the millions of Americans that still have the aspirations I share and that are described and celebrated on these pages. As a country we are of two distinct minds that grow farther apart by the day (witness the response to the Zimmerman verdict).
    • Your promotion of the sad and growing state of voter ignorance as the salvation of the Republic is in my humble opinion both widespread and in deep error.

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  16. fish Avatar
    fish

    Voting rights, privilege, duty, and process are the least of this country’s worries. The only reason that you, George, dredged this subject up from the Pit and Pendulum is because you see the handwriting on the wall: tomorrow’s voters are not from Estonia, they are from Latin America, and they vote overwhelmingly Democratic! You and your belief systems are totally hosed!!
    100% correct Michael. And they’ll continue to vote democratic until it dawns on them that they serve a dual purpose. To be yoked for inexpensive labor and milked for for government revenue. You won’t want to be in their path when they decide that propping up social welfare programs “invented when all the TVs were black and white” (sorry your steam engine line was better but a guy has to work with what’s available) isn’t in their interest any longer. Hope you weren’t counting on that revenue for a comfortable retirement Michael.
    Has the black community been told yet that they’re not “Team Democrat” favorites anymore….lord knows that won’t be a pleasant break up……let us know how it goes. No justice, No peace and all that!
    Sorry George, this is how it’s all gonna play out: the deeply tanned people will continue to nullify your vote in America, and our political system will either collapse and be replaced, or it will be reformed into a more socialist, egalitarian, and less-warlike/more kinder nation.
    Reformed into a more socialist system? Why not stay in Mexico (or Honduras, or Guatamala, etc.) then?
    Kinder nation? You’re delusional!
    I do agree about a less warlike future…. far too expensive. Partial credit.
    You will be forced to sit on the sidelines and watch your world crumble. You had it great in the 20th century, what with your fat gov’t cost-plus contracts. All that is gone now. Welcome to a 21st century that you can either learn to embrace, or die promulgating nonsense that the younger generation uses as starter material for their comedy skits.
    Good to see the closet nihilist letting his mask slip….very refreshing!
    A third alternative is for you to go to Burning Man, where you will actually receive an education of which you have never before experienced. Gordon will be glad to fly you over there, and I personally guarantee that you will come away with a different perspective on the world. I even have a bike that you can use.
    Did you use to have to say “Woodstock” when you tried this argument before Burning Man ?
    How is “Burning Man” an endorsement of any argument you’ve made up to this point? “The event is described by many participants as an experiment in community, art, radical self-expression, and radical self-reliance”. The “top down”, ham fisted, democrat political method that seems to be favored by a certain faction posting at RR is no more popular there than the post WWII structure that you say is crumbling (I agree with this incidentally).
    So what is Mike: Socialist or Anarchist?

    Like

  17. stevenfrisch Avatar
    stevenfrisch

    Posted by: George Rebane | 16 July 2013 at 06:57 AM
    Yeah Michael, who do you think you are assuming that establishing an unconstitutional literacy and numeracy test has anything to do with ‘race and ethnicity”? Can’t you see that “any new proposal does not involve those factors”?
    It is purely a coincidence that ‘conservatarians’ are proposing restricting voting rights by establishing tests that it will be more difficult for immigrants to the country [who are 80% of Latino descent] to pass at a time when the predominance of white, Christian, western European voters is declining.
    Don’t call George and his minions racists! They vehemently deny any such allegation! This is about principles…constitutional purity…it is just common sense…it is a simple little change.
    Of course it is also a coincidence that these are the same arguments made in Americas not so distant past about denying the franchise to kIkes, chinks, beaners, bohunks, burr heads, dagos, hippos, japs, krauts, paddys, ragheads, and zipperheads.
    Fortunately we still live in the United States of America, where such nativist disdain for immigrants leads to their sons being elected President of the United States

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  18. George Rebane Avatar

    stevenfrisch 751am – the manner of citing your comment gives the reader the erroneous impression that what follows are my words. Which underlines my long held observation that you have great difficulty with dialogues. They always turn out to be a monologues wherein you supply the voices, opinions, and beliefs of both parties – sort of like a puppet theater.

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  19. Ben Emery Avatar
    Ben Emery

    George,
    Another difference between a progressive vs liberal. Remember the definitions I gave a while back. Liberal Democrats are just as bad as conservative Republicans in supporting their team blindly.
    Liberal- a person who wants everybody to be able to live comfortably in a corrupt system
    Progressive- a person who wants to change the corrupt system so everybody can live comfortably.
    Cornell West
    Cornel West: Most Liberals Are ‘Morally Bankrupt’
    http://newsbusters.org/blogs/noel-sheppard/2013/07/14/cornel-west-most-liberals-are-morally-bankrupt

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  20. Bill Tozer Avatar
    Bill Tozer

    Mr. Frisch. Your talk of minorities in the US passing a literacy test is racist in and of itself (IMHO). What makes you think that any person is less intelligent or incapable of mastering a literacy test based solely on the color of their skin? I hope you are not implying that Native Americans are less intelligent or have a diminished capacity to reason and improve their minds…or worse yet, that someone cannot/will not posses the ability to understand complex issues because their skin is darker than yours?
    If so, then the Bell Curve is valid. As we enter the post-racial era we must remember we judge (as the Conservatives on these pages always have) a person on the content of their character, not by the color of their skin. Witness the many quotes and support of Black Conservatives. We debate issues, not pigment.
    And we debate these issues proudly.
    As far as immigrants goes, all naturalized citizens must take a test and pass it before having the highest honor of obtaining US citizenship. The test includes understanding English, our liberties, our Constitution, and civic duty by extension. Millions have mastered the citizenship test required to become citizens with the right of suffrage.
    Mr. Frisch, a little side note. I noticed you used the term hippos in your list of derogatory terms attributed to white racists. When the young white student at Penn was booted out for yelling “Quiet down you hippos” at a group of loud drunken women outside his dorm room in the wee hours of the night, he was allowed back on campus after he was absolved of being non PC at his hearing. None other that the head of the NAACP sent an affidavit that the term “hippo” was not a racist term, nor has it ever been. Calling a boisterous fat drunk a fat drunk hippo may be hurtful, but not racist.
    If I am a racist then I am guilty as charged. If racism means I am superior to others bases solely on the color of my skin, then I am not guilty. In fact, I may be inferior intellectually to others of different races. If this was truly a color blind society based solely on merit, then 70% of the grads from MIT and UCLA Medical School would be Asians, 14% white, 8% Latino, and 8% black.

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  21. fish Avatar
    fish

    Fortunately we still live in the United States of America, where such nativist disdain for immigrants leads to their sons being elected President of the United States
    Please tell me you were standing on a box orating to a large crowd when you made this statement.
    It’s not that you don’t make reasonable points Steve….it’s just that there is so much of the “politician” that leaks out when you post!

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  22. Ben Emery Avatar
    Ben Emery

    Bill,
    Traditionally since people of color were slaves and weren’t allowed to attend schools with whites for hundreds of years literacy tests were inherently racist. If we look at poverty in the US and which demographic that has the biggest % of poverty in their ranks it still is people of color. Since our school funding is tied to property taxes those who live in low income housing areas usually have some of the least accessibility to cutting edge programs, thus are at a disadvantage. Making a literacy test that just by coincidence tests to the areas poorer schools have a hard time putting it into the curriculum.
    12% of white children live in poverty
    38% of black children live in poverty
    35% of hispanic children live in poverty
    http://www.npc.umich.edu/poverty/

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  23. fish Avatar
    fish

    Traditionally since people of color were slaves and weren’t allowed to attend schools with whites for hundreds of years literacy tests were inherently racist.
    Wow Sherman….how far in the past will you set the “WayBack” machine to make todays argument. There are no segregated schools that aren’t that way due to where people live and you can only shovel so much money into poverty programs before “system gaming” makes any further improvements counter productive. Unless you want to force integration in living arrangements what else do you propose (and good luck with that)?
    How much does DC spend on its schools on a per pupil basis to produce the same shitty results they’ve been getting since the 1960s?

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  24. Ben Emery Avatar
    Ben Emery

    Fish,
    Giving historic context to the discussion. But I guess actual history scares the pants of many people who don’t like to consider the F’ed up way our flawless founders set up the country to work at the beginning. What was genius about the founders wasn’t what they set up for themselves but rather a system that could change with time and opinion. Those who believe in original intent literally are putting themselves back into a time where human beings were considered property of white males, including all women.
    So I will put into the a question to make my point.
    Who gets to form and write the tests?
    I will give you a good but very funny example. Watch this clip and see how many answers you might get correct. My guess it would be very few. Lets say you had to get 70% of the questions correct to be able to vote.
    http://www.comedycentral.com/video-clips/s6ew40/chappelle-s-show-i-know-black-people-pt–1

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  25. George Rebane Avatar

    BenE 941am – Wow! Your citing that ‘test’ in the context of this discussion reaches the heights of cynicism witnessed in these pages. Were I to put a finer point on it, to judge the utility of such ‘tests’ as being anywhere near on par with a test in American civics would also qualify it as an expression of racism. But alas, that finer point cannot apply to progressives.

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  26. Ben Emery Avatar
    Ben Emery

    George,
    Actually that clip although meant to be funny is very relevant to the topic. You like the idea of the literacy as long as it is your test. Do you really think people of color see the United States the same way as you do? I don’t care how “successful” and educated a person of color is they know what it feels like to be scrutinized everywhere they go.
    The point was if a segment of the population isn’t exposed to certain information or experiences it is impossible for them to answer questions that pertain to that information and experiences. Did you watch the clip? How many did you get correct? As foreign as “Badunk-adunk” and “Lucy’s” are to you is the idea of liberty, equality, and the American dream are for many people of color.
    You really don’t seem to grasp what the United States and the world look like through the eyes of a population that have been oppressed, suppressed, and discriminated against the entire history of our nation.

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  27. fish Avatar
    fish

    You really don’t seem to grasp what the United States and the world look like through the eyes of a population that have been oppressed, suppressed, and discriminated against the entire history of our nation.
    Sorry dude…hate to spoil the narrative but this isn’t the 60’s any longer….you need to move on. There are no more Bull Connors turning hoses and dogs on blacks trying to vote and sit at lunch counters. No one around today was ever a slave and not a citizen.
    Watch any bay area news reports last night? 45 years ago it would have been “wood shampoo” time. Last night….mild indifference from law enforcement.
    No one is asking me anything about 1/2 Irish 1/2 Scandinavian culture to qualify me to vote! I’d have a better chance passing Mr. Chappelles test (I’m serious…I was doing as well as most of the contestants) but if I had to take a test about the basic (and I do mean basic) functioning of this government I could pass the test. Most of the black people I know could pass as well.

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  28. Ben Emery Avatar
    Ben Emery

    Fish,
    Although it was journey was done in 1959 and book published in 1961 I encourage you to read the book “Black Like Me”.
    http://www.humanitiestexas.org/news/articles/black-like-me
    Before you claim we are no longer living in those times as you did in your 16 July 2013 at 10:49 AM comment.
    Dogs, fire hoses, and overt Bull Conners aren’t to be used for discrimination and suppression to be taking place. 500 years of history and culture doesn’t just go away because a few laws were passed in the 1960’s.

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  29. Ben Emery Avatar
    Ben Emery

    correction
    Should read
    “….Bull Conners aren’t necessary for discrimination ….”

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  30. fish Avatar
    fish

    500 years of history and culture doesn’t just go away because a few laws were passed in the 1960’s.
    A few laws?
    Well then Ben what do you propose? I think we’re well into “law of diminshing returns” territory but by all means tell me how we can improve things from this point forward.

    Like

  31. Bill Tozer Avatar
    Bill Tozer

    Good point Mr. Fish, and funny. The point of diminishing returns.
    Ben, no one is denying our history of slavery and keeping the slaves uneducated. Much bloodshed was shed under horrible conditions to right this wrong in The War Between The States. Yes, it was a war between the states that an fore-mother (is there such a word?) of mine (Harriet Beacher Stowe) was attributed to starting by no less than Abraham Lincoln.
    What I am saying is that all men/women of courage do and can rise above adverse circumstances. Yes, many of our students sadly do not aspire to greater things, and it they do, they lack the will or ambition to make it happen. I blame this primarily on the break up of the family unit. Having 74% of black children born out of wedlock and knowing Uncle Sam will meet their needs has proven to be a modern day plantation, DC style.
    On a personal note, one of my most admired people in our history was a black female slave. Seeing her futile future she begged her slave master and his wife to let her take her son to a place where a black kid could receive an education. She respectfully begged and begged until she received permission. She (Miss Mary) took her son and walked 500 miles on a most perilous journey, hiding all they way. A black slave in those days must be most careful when off the plantation. The boy indeed arrived to get a basic education and the mother left him there and returned to slavery as promised.
    You may not know the woman’s name since she is not even a footnote in our history. Her name was Mary Carver. Her son’s name was George Washington Carver. That is the ambition and tenacity I am talking about. BTW, have you seen the price of peanut butter lately?

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  32. fish Avatar
    fish

    Although it was journey was done in 1959 and book published in 1961 I encourage you to read the book “Black Like Me”.
    http://www.humanitiestexas.org/news/articles/black-like-me
    Before you claim we are no longer living in those times as you did in your 16 July 2013 at 10:49 AM comment.
    Dogs, fire hoses, and overt Bull Conners aren’t to be used for discrimination and suppression to be taking place. 500 years of history and culture doesn’t just go away because a few laws were passed in the 1960’s.

    Ben I retract my request for clarification in the matter or rebuttal of any previous statement. I’m beginning to smell the vague stink of sockpuppetry.
    Anyone here can confirm the actual existence of Mr. Emery (and that he’s not suffering from debilitating mental issues or serious head trauma) and I’ll issue an apology.
    Published in 1961……?? Really…..?!

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  33. stevenfrisch Avatar
    stevenfrisch

    Posted by: George Rebane | 16 July 2013 at 08:07 AM
    I thought my citation was pretty clearly a response to your post. If that was unclear I apologize.
    Fish & Bill, I think my meaning is clear–the motivation behind literacy tests, as Ben aptly points out, is restricting the franchise based on race and national origin, and any reading of it any other way denies our 240 year history.
    By the way, the term ‘hippo’ is an ethnic slur aimed at Romanians of Gypsy descent, not ‘fat women’, just another quaint American term picked up from a misspent youth on the ethnically diverse streets of Chicago.

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  34. fish Avatar
    fish

    ….the motivation behind literacy tests, as Ben aptly points out, is restricting the franchise based on race and national origin, and any reading of it any other way denies our 240 year history.
    Immediately after slavery when the majority of the black population had no access to education (in this instance I’ll assume reading and simple writing only)….what’s the excuse now? Oh and any white guys who fail the test….well how bout they don’t get to vote either?

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  35. Bill Tozer Avatar
    Bill Tozer

    Mr. Frisch…..and Jap stands for Jewish American Princess on the streets of Beverly Hills. Furhtermore, the difference between a Mexican American Princess and a Jewish American Princess is that with the Mexican American Princess the jewelry is fake but the organisms are real.

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  36. Ben Emery Avatar
    Ben Emery

    Fish,
    Yes 500 years of history of tyranny, oppression, suppression, and discrimination against people of color. It started with the genocide of the Arawaks who met Columbus in 1492. It continues still today in different shapes and forms. Wake Up and pull your head out of the sand.

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  37. George Rebane Avatar

    re BenE 713pm – I wonder what should be done when millions in America are judged by BenE to have their heads in the sand about so many things. Is it time for FEMA re-education camps for us?

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  38. Todd Juvinall Avatar

    Hey there BenE, please explain the 1000 years or so of the black Moors in Spain. How about the Turks (people of color) with their enslavement of the Armenians and others in the Caucus regions for six hundred years. You are just too much a self hater to be an honest American.
    How do you feel about the drug cocaine BenE? Do you believe it should be legalized? Maybe then there would be less people of color murdered by other people of color? Or is that the white mans fault too?

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  39. Ben Emery Avatar
    Ben Emery

    No George, that would be your solution. I actually don’t support authoritarian style approaches.
    So George, am I lying about Columbus? I am I lying about our founders? I am lying about the discrimination of people of color? If I am not lying, how can we say an ingrained 500 year history can be wiped out in a few decades?

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  40. stevenfrisch Avatar
    stevenfrisch

    Posted by: Todd Juvinall | 16 July 2013 at 07:33 PM
    Two words Todd: Dark Alliance
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dark_Alliance

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  41. stevenfrisch Avatar
    stevenfrisch

    The authoritarian solution would be to deny people the right to vote because you think they are stupid.
    Under those conditions if I wrote the test Todd, Greg, George, Russ, Fish, Dirtmover (whatever happened to Dixon), Bill and almost everyone else posting here would not be able to vote.

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  42. stevenfrisch Avatar
    stevenfrisch

    But I must regress to my original statement: The question posed is pure fantasy; akin to asking, “what if the last 223 of history had not occurred?” It is impossible to even take seriously.

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  43. Ben Emery Avatar
    Ben Emery

    I guess you guys aren’t smart enough to figure it out. We are not talking about a single issue. How can it be that in the US the founders felt such little compassion towards other living human beings that they would create laws that would make them property not a person? How could an entire country sit back and allow Jim Crow laws to be put in place for so long? How could it be when Todd was just getting ready to avoid the military people of color were still fighting to get voting rights and civil rights that would make laws apply to them equally as whites? Separate is not equal.
    It was taught and ingrained into our culture and society that people of color were less than human, that is how. That doesn’t happen with one issue it has to be pervasive in every aspect of society for it to get so ingrained that good people would sit back and allow fellow human beings be treated like chattel.

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  44. fish Avatar
    fish

    So George, am I lying about Columbus? I am I lying about our founders? I am lying about the discrimination of people of color? If I am not lying, how can we say an ingrained 500 year history can be wiped out in a few decades?
    I’m 50 this year you useless red diaper wearing piece of shit and I’ll not grovel before your PC nonsense and neither will any of my children or theirs I pray. For the 50 years of my existence this government has tried to remedy past injustice to the best (in my eyes anyway) of its abilities with multi trillions of contrition forcibly extracted from the taxpayer and we are now no closer to making things better than they were when they started. Nobody who posts (nor the vast majority of the populace) here slaughtered the Arawaks, no one here owned a slave, nor do I think any would if given the opportunity…..but you you miserable groveling cur…if you think that blood sacrifice is required to atone for events 500 years ago then I cordially invite you to pen your apology and eat the barrel. I only hope to learn the location of your final plot so I can visit and empty my bladder on a complete waste of skin!

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  45. Ben Emery Avatar
    Ben Emery

    Fish,
    It is the handed down mentality for those 500 years that people of color are less than human or at least inferior to whites. If you are 50 years old when you were born the civil rights and voting rights act hadn’t been passed yet. So once again a couple laws and policies for 50 years aren’t going to reverse 500 years of racism, discrimination, and oppression. I don’t think blood sacrifice is needed just not more discrimination.

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  46. Todd Juvinall Avatar

    Fish excellent depiction of BenE and SteveF. They are two ungrateful people. As you can see they never answer any of our questions and are really just two very dumb people about real life. But keep up the good work fish, you are a hoot!
    Frisch, I have no interest in your interest in violent video games. Keep playing though, it clearly explains your lack of smarts.

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  47. fish Avatar
    fish

    You are a fool and not worthy of any more of my time.

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  48. Ben Emery Avatar
    Ben Emery

    Fish,
    You are the fool who thinks affirmative action is reparations for hundreds of years of being property and treated less than human. Being treated as equals is the reparations not needing an affirmative law to mandate quota’s. Do you see the difference? One is a band aid and the other is justice. I guess that is what I get for trying to converse with someone who doesn’t stand by their opinion enough to use their real name. Unless Fish is your real name.

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  49. Bill Tozer Avatar
    Bill Tozer

    Ben, in the Holy Bible (can I say Holy Bible or am I allowed only to say Holy Koran?, but I digress once again). Hmm. Restart. In the Holy Bible the Children of Israel were slaves for 400 hundred years. When they left Egypt, immediately things got dicey and they clamored to go back. At least in Egypt they knew where their bread was coming from. They knew what to expect, despite horrid living conditions. They had the slave mentality.
    God was displeased with them and their slave mentality. He said no one of that generation (even Moses) could step foot in the Promised Land. They wandered around the desert until that generation all died off and only the new generation who did not have the slave mentality was able to enter the Land of Milk and Honey.
    That is how the story goes. I see and know your point quite well and I read Black Like Me in grammer school and Malcolm X in jr. high. Yes, there is a black experience that we don’t share.
    My deep concern is some of the liberal persuasion keep parading the former slaves around and around in the wilderness and they are not entering the Promised Land. Its like they dig up dead slaves to assuage themselves with.
    Don’t know if it is all white guilt (read Jefferson’s adjectives and nouns concerning the savages eating acorns) or trying to make yourself morally superior or what. The longer you make excuses for someone the longer it takes for them to be accountable for their actions. The longer we keep bringing up slavery, the longer our fellow Americans cling to the slave mentality. Where my Obamaphone?
    Bill Crosby, Barrack Obama, and countless others have tried to get the black community to stand up and clean house. The NAACP has barred conservative black folk who voice the accountable theme. This should only be discussed in-house, not in public Bill Cosby was admonished. When Candidate Obama voiced the same theme, The Godly and Most Holy Reverend Jackson said he wanted to cut Barrack’s dingle berries off with a knife. How violent.
    Where my Obamaphone? There is a time to stop making excuses for little Johnnie. Maybe when all those from the Civil Rights Era die off, then real change can be made and we can happily enter the post racial era with a new generation to whom slavery and the slave mentality is in the dust bin
    of a foggy long ago bad dream.

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