Ode to Deflected Dialogue

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Ode to Deflected Dialogue

28 May 2013

George Rebane

Posted in Culture Comments, The Liberal Mind

80 responses to “Ode to Deflected Dialogue”

Ben Emery

28 May 2013

Just as “conservatives” went back to Clinton during the Reagan years.
George,
I would really appreciate it if you would stop using the term progressive and liberal with Obama. I’ve said it before and will again. Any real progressive I know disagrees with much of the Obama administration. What we have is a two party tyranny that no longer represent the people. Here are a few nuggets from Obama’s top advisers and big player in the Democratic Party about progressives and liberals.
Rahm Emanual
Liberals “fu#%ing retarded”
http://fdlaction.firedoglake.com/2010/01/26/rahm-emanuel-liberals-are-f-king-retarded/
“The idea is that Fox News is more important than any progressive leader or commentator (or even the majority opinion of progressives throughout the country, as evidenced by polls) because liberals have nowhere to go. So, that’s why you can abuse them, ignore them and even treat them with disdain — and they’ll still vote for you. What are they going to do — vote for Republicans?”
http://my.firedoglake.com/cenkuygur/tag/progressives/

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Ben Emery

28 May 2013

That first sentence should read “Just as “conservatives” went back to Clinton during the W Bush years”

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George Rebane

28 May 2013

BenE 629am – I think you’re fighting a stiff headwind on the use of ‘progressive’. Both the national and international media agree that Obama’s policies are progressive enough for him to be called a progressive. And, of course, he’s socialist enough (at least in the eyes of inernational media) to earn that appellation also.

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Paul Emery

28 May 2013

What concerns me George is that those who nominated and elected Bush, who is very much in the past and seldom allowed off his ranch especially during convention time, are still alive and well in the Republican Party. Whose to say they may again pick such an incompetent for the worlds highest office. Remember, they were the ones who claimed Sarah Palin was qualified to be President of the United States.

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Joe Koyote

28 May 2013

“he’s socialist enough (at least in the eyes of inernational media)” Now you are agreeing with the “lamestream press”? How convenient. In the grand scheme of things Obama is more conservative than Richard Nixon. The public discussion has skewed so far to the right, thanks to Fox news and the billionaire funded think tanks so often quoted by that very lamestream press, that the terms “liberal” or “progressive,” when attached to Obama, are meaningless propaganda terms used to demonize practically any policy left of right-center. The policies of Reagan and Bush are largely responsible for the myriad of problems America and much of the rest of the world now face, so why not revisit them and learn from our mistakes. Adhering to an unbending ideological position is like putting blinders on a blind man. It is, perhaps unfortunate, that most of the ideologues of the right are not going to live long enough to see the folly of their positions, and most will die thinking theirs were the correct solutions rather than root causes of untold human misery.

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Gregory

28 May 2013

Paul, you’ve got to let go, don’t go to your grave in the clutches of Bush Derangement Syndrome. Besides, had the Dems gotten away with stealing the two GW Bush elections it would have been worse.

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Ben Emery

28 May 2013

George,
Check out these links and you will see how calling Obama a progressive or liberal is very misleading.
Tavis Smiley, Cornel West on the 2012 Election & Why Calling Obama “Progressive” Ignores His Record
http://www.democracynow.org/2012/11/9/tavis_smiley_cornel_west_on_the
Minute 43:00 is where the debate on Obama’s progressiveness.
Progressive media claims they’ll be ‘tougher’ on Obama now
http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2012/dec/03/progressive-media-obama-criticisms

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Paul Emery

28 May 2013

How could it have been worse Gregory? Give me details. Here’s the legacy of Bush II Total economic collapse, two unfunded and unfinished wars, being asleep at the wheel while our enemies attacked us, turning a fiscal surplus and balanced budget into a doubling of the national debt, the Patriot act and all it’s unconstitutional frills, TARP and the bailing out of Banksters and insurance frauds, collapse of the stock market,torture by US soldiers at Abu Ghraib, the exploitation of American hero Pat Tillman, for a start. That’s a legacy that will probably never be matched. Tell me how could it be worse? My concern today is not with Bush who is exiled to his ranch much like LBJ but with those who put him in power (Republicans) and how they might have the same opportunity again. Sends chills up my back.

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George Rebane

28 May 2013

PaulE 645pm – Put on a sweater Paul, Obama has well exceeded any damage that you can attribute to the solo flight of Bush2. And he’s not even breathing hard yet. This blog is testimony to it, and I’ll have a few more things to point out before it’s over. For now you’re just singing the ode, because you have nothing else to talk about.

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Paul Emery

28 May 2013

Give me some examples George. Tit for tat is OK. Compare economic declime, troops at war etc

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Michael Anderson

28 May 2013

George wrote: “Obama has well exceeded any damage that you can attribute to the solo flight of Bush2.”
George, this is not based on any facts whatsoever. It’s just your opinion. You are suffering deeply from Obama Derangement Syndrome.
I am no big fan of Obama because he is a corporatist lapdog, doesn’t have the stones to close Gitmo, and will probably not leave much of a legacy besides PPACA.
Paul E. is right: Bush2 was the worst president in the history of this country for the reasons he cites, and his legacy will worsen over time.

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Paul Emery

28 May 2013

Michael
This is not about Bush it’s about the Republican party who chose him and sold him to the American people.
I didn’t vote for Obama this time around. He is indeed a mushy center right Democrat with a weak supporting cast. However, in order to trust the Pubbers to come up with an alternative you need to look at who they chose in the past and Bush is their pork chop in a pack of dogs when it comes to setting standards of how bad a President can be. Also, those in this blog that say Bush inherited a recession from Clinton are silent about the mess that Obama was left with.
Remember, the Repubs were OK with Sarah Palin being a heartbeat away from the Presidency
This is not about Bush it’s about the Republican party who chose him and sold him to the American people.

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Todd Juvinall

28 May 2013

I liked Bush. I did real well under his leadership and so did he country. Besides he was a fighter pilot and a man of the military.You Obama lovers are too funny. Get your noses out of his ass before you suffocate.

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Paul Emery

28 May 2013

Yeah we really prospered under Bush Todd. The economy was in great shape when he left right.

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Todd Juvinall

28 May 2013

That’s right Paul, the country was doing great until your pals took Congress in 2006. Then all hell broke loose.

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Paul Emery

28 May 2013

The Dems took the House for two years but the Senate and Presidency were held by the Pubs for eight years. Everything on Bush’s desk went through a Republican Senate and he could have vetoed anytime. We’re still paying for his unfunded wars. And the Pat Tillman story was one of the most disgraceful events in the history of this country that was never brought to justice. Spin that one Todd and blame it on the Dems. Go ahead, you can do it.

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Michael Anderson

28 May 2013

Paul, when I label Bush2 as Worst President Ever, I am doing exactly what you describe, which is to expose a fractured federal electoral system, and a cadre of Republican leaders and voters, who would allow such a man to hold that office. I agree with you–Bush was the manifestation of a sickness underneath.
But let’s let someone who might really know something about the subject make the case:
“Bob Dole no longer recognizes the Republican Party that he helped lead for years. Speaking over the weekend on ‘Fox News Sunday,’ he said his party should hang a ‘closed for repairs’ sign on its doors until it comes up with a few positive ideas, because neither he nor Ronald Reagan would now feel comfortable in its membership.”
http://www.nytimes.com/2013/05/29/opinion/bob-dole-misses-his-republican-party.html?hp&_r=0

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Ryan Mount

29 May 2013

Maybe worst recent President, although even by that standard we’ve had some pretty terrible ones. Nixon? Folks like Johnson because of his massive government free cheese give-aways, but other than that, he was a colossal asshole on par with Bush II in terms of his war-mongering, spending and social unrest.
But compared to say the historical disasters of Andrew Johnson, Harding and Fillmore, for starters, Bush II is a Saint.

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Ben Emery

29 May 2013

Paul,
An interesting pattern here on RR is that those like Todd J. only see the world through how they are doing personally. I have made this comment to my wife about the “conservative” regulars here that they are only worried about their civil liberties, their educations, their careers, their retirements, and their happiness. Almost everything I defend or argue for are rights, services, and opportunities for all people not just myself. Does Republican = selfishness?

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Ben Emery

29 May 2013

Michael A,
By far the worst all around president in living memory is George W Bush. Reagan was the worst president all around of the 20th century. This is not to say that Obama or Clinton were good. Actually Obama in many ways is a third term of the W Bush and Clinton administrations combined. I love the fact that Obama will talk thoughtfully about taboo subjects and that homosexuals have made huge civil liberty gains under his administration but not much else.

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Todd Juvinall

29 May 2013

Bush did grreat until your buddy Nancy Pelosi etal were put in charge. In the Senate, your buds did what you cry about now and they filibustered almost everything. No, you numbskulls are just plain biased yet deny it is so.
I did good under Reagan, Bush 1 slowed a bit, Clinton was OK and Bush2 I did very good. That was for the BenE fellow who apparently is having a hard time.

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Paul Emery

29 May 2013

Todd
When did you have your foreclosure problems and whose fault was that?

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Ben Emery

29 May 2013

My health has been generally good, my parents are still around in their late 70’s and early 80’s, out of 4 sets of aunt and uncles all of them have been married 50 years plus and one 61 years (only one of my uncles has passed on), both my brothers are married, my brother and his wife from Cambodia have been home for nearly 6 weeks visiting, and we’re celebrating our youngest graduation from NU this weekend while enjoying our oldest being home from St Mary’s until July when he is participating in school abroad program in Australia. Personally I’m in my 7th year of being self employed and working with 200 acres of properties. I will be enrolling in school this fall to complete a degree. Life is pretty good for me personally.
What I am worried about are all the people who have become bankrupt or homeless due to the deregulation of the big banks that the republicans along with Clinton brought us. What I am worried about all the military women and men who are being raped, being sent to defend/ fight for US occupations and being killed/ maimed and coming home with PTSD along with brain injuries. What I am worried about is a couple seed companies controlling 90% of of the industry. What I am worried about is the massive extinctions we are experiencing in our oceans. What I am worried about is the apathy towards the violations of our civil liberties. What I am worried about is the use of drones to kill anyone without due process because this is setting precedent for a very ugly future. What I am worried about is our government being up for sale to the highest bidder. What I am worried about are the working conditions of those who make the goods we purchase in the US. What I am worried about is the widening gap between the wealthy and the rest of us despite the increase in productivity. What I am worried about is shelter, food, transportation, education, retirement, and health care are beginning to really become out of reach for tens of millions of Americans.
That is what I am worried about.

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George Rebane

29 May 2013

Musing about Sen Dole’s “closed for repairs” remark, I wish Chris Wallace would have asked him what he and/or Reagan would now be doing differently given the post 9/11 world and the hard left direction the Dems have taken. It’s hard to believe that they would not have changed their behaviors in some appropriate ways.
There is no slack cut to Reagan for the Carter malaise and stagflation, nor to Bush2 for Clinton’s dotcom recession and 9/11. And that even though the Messiah has kept Bush2’s policies essentially intact.
In the meantime we are now so separated ideologically that some leftwing worthies (e.g. BenE 658am) can’t even understand that the conservetarian policies promoted by the Right could ever be of benefit to the whole country. These policies would magically just carve out goodies for rightwingers, leaving everyone else in the dust. What a sad worldview!

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Paul Emery

29 May 2013

George
Do you cite the same a handicap for Obama aas you do Bush in inheriting an economic mess? (dot comm-08 collapse) ?

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George Rebane

29 May 2013

PaulE 854am – I sure do, Obama got a government-cooked and Congress-stoked financial mess. But his problem was twofold, the financial crisis and his ineptness in knowing what to do about it. On the southside of Chicago, if more money was needed, then the organizers went to the government with their demands. That still seemed like the right thing for him to do when he got to the WH – turned out it wasn’t.

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Russ Steele

29 May 2013

Hummm,
The IRS Commissioners under Obama visited the White House on average 60 times a year, more than once a week. Why?
The IRS Commissioner under Bush visited the White House once. He declined to attend the WH Christmas Party, as it might be viewed as an improper association.
The smell of corruption is spreading through out Washington DC. Maybe some of Obama’s lefty defenders can explain why the IRS Commissioner would have business in the White House more than once a week? Political Corruption?

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Ben Emery

29 May 2013

Russ,
“The smell of corruption is spreading through out Washington DC”
You think?
I wouldn’t bring up WH guests and getting west wing passes.
Does the name Jeff Gannon ring a bell?
http://www.vanityfair.com/politics/features/2005/06/gannongate200506
“And it had to call attention to Jeff Gannon. The daily question was all part of Gannon’s grand strategy not just to elicit news but to become a journalistic force in his own right. Now that he had re-christened himself “Jeff Gannon”—James Guckert was his given name—he had to create and extend what he calls “the Jeff Gannon brand.” Only a few years earlier, he’d been keeping the books at an auto-body shop in eastern Pennsylvania, and, if you believe his Web sites, hiring himself out as a male escort for other men. In a fit of patriotic fervor shortly after September 11, 2001, he moved to Washington, D.C., where he knew almost no one. But now, as the White House correspondent for an obscure operation called Talon News—actually little more than a collection of amateurs and true believers posting a hodgepodge of right-wing “news” items online daily for Bobby Eberle, a Texas Republican activist—he had become a fixture at the daily briefing. “Go ahead, Jeff,” McClellan would say regularly. Still, Gannon, someone who prided himself on taking risks, on always “leading the parade,” was impatient. All these talking heads on television during the 2004 presidential campaign were no better or more knowledgeable than he.”

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George Rebane

29 May 2013

BenE 1137am – ‘…/No not of Obama, the now and here/ or what the future brings/…’
And that’s the point. There is no going forward by correcting the correctable. For every defect in today’s world is dismissed by citing a real or imagined defect that is now history. Corruption immer über alles.

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Ryan Mount

29 May 2013

The Democrats are secretly hoping that Republicans make the recent Government fiascoes, which are indeed not good, about Obama. Because they know that Obama is safe for a number of reasons. So attempts to tie meetings with the IRS Commission directly to the oval office will fail because at a minimum they’ll just play the “I don’t recall game.”
If Republicans were smart, they’d make this a referendum on the IRS and the truly screwed-up taxation system we have. The IRS horribleness was created after all by our Government. Just like the Wall Street/banking crap. (Ooooo! Ooooo! Mr. Kotter! I know how that works. You make a 5 Billion Dollar company secretly look like they’re worth 1 Trillion. And the government encourages and assists them!)
Anyhow, the government bought and poured, and the IRS drank. Maybe the pour order came from Obama. Who cares? They’re all assholes. He’ll be gone soon and we’ll be stuck with same old dysfunctional tax system. Prediction: this will happen again.
But it seems, at least at the moment, that Republicans are more interested in playing Kill the King, than inspecting his Court.

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Russ Steele

29 May 2013

BenE@11:39AM
Once again Ben attempts to change the subject. The IRS issue is here and now. We cannot change history, but we can influence the future. Nice try. Not taking the bait!

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Ben Emery

29 May 2013

No Russ, I am not trying to change the subject. I bring this corruption of our state and federal governments on a daily basis. We have a single problem that very few “conservative” regulars at RR seem to think matters, big money special interests controlling our government and all the suppression/ oppression that follows the corruption to hide from the public what is going on behind closed doors.

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Ben Emery

29 May 2013

George,
My comment to Russ can go to you as well. This is what I am talking about on a daily basis. No the republicans are worse, no the democrats are worse. They both are just as corrupt and bad for the country. The sooner we realize the “least worse” or “lesser of two evils” really isn’t a choice it is hostage crisis of our ability to elect representatives for the interests of the electorate not special interests that have the most lobbying and campaign bundling capabilities.
Maybe we are starting to have an Ah ha moment here.

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Gregory

29 May 2013

“How could it have been worse Gregory? Give me details.” -Paul
I don’t relish the role of devil’s advocate, but you got it. Warning… this is long:
“Here’s the legacy of Bush II Total economic collapse”
He was the President, not the King, and the trigger of the collapse (far from “total”) nearly two years AFTER Reid and Pelosi took control of the Congress was the shenanigans at those wacky Government Sponsored Entities, the Democratic sacred cows Fanny Mae and Freddie Mac whose ‘business’ was funding 100% homeloans to people whose only hope for paying them back was finding a buyer in a couple years who would pay even more, and bundling them with the good loans into securities to sell around the world that were impossible to value after the collapse, hence the “Troubled Asset Relief Program” to help undo that whole mess.
Here’s a nice treatment of Federal Spending and Revenues going back to the Reagan years:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Revenue_and_Expense_to_GDP_Chart_1993_-_2008.png
The Bush years don’t look all that bad considering what he inherited, and before you gloat about Clinton’s performance remember that he got a spanking in his first midterm election as the people were rebelling against his attempts at health care reform (iirc Hillary locked a bunch of Yale lawyers in a room to design Hillarycare after she jiggered her own assets to take advantage of it) and put in Gingrich to clean house and balance the budget. Clinton also had the good fortune to have internetworking technologies beginning to pay off on his watch.
“two unfunded and unfinished wars”
The abridged version: The first unfinished war started circa 1991 with a cease fire and disarmament handed over to the UN instead of letting Schwarzkopf clear a path to Baghdad. Inherited by Clinton from Bush 1, it was left to fester. The UN Oil for Food program, meant to allow Iraq to sell some oil to gain foreign currency for food, medicine and other essentials was turned into a slush fund that funneled huge sums to key Security Council personnel, guaranteeing the UN would never authorize military action against the Baathists. Meanwhile, the only thing keeping the Kurds from being massacred were overflights by US and British aircraft that were regularly shot at by the Baathist regime, a continuing act of war during a so-called “peace”. Europe got all the benefits of trade with Iraq while the US tried to keep the leaks to a minimum. Even Kofi Anan’s son got a piece of the Iraqi action.
“Oil for Palaces” was, in financial terms, a bigger scam than Enron.
After 9/11, Iraq stepped up its support of terrorist actions in places like Israel, paying large sums (30k? I forget the number) to the families of martyrs willing to turn busloads of schoolchildren into red goo. And twice, Putin informed Bush that Russian spies had heard of Iraqi intent to sponsor future terror attacks within US borders.
And British intelligence, not to mention a non partisan Congressional panel, still say Iraq was in Niger looking for yellowcake uranium for future nuke programs.
“being asleep at the wheel while our enemies attacked us”
Yeah, I’m sure you would have been cool had Bush decided to institute the TSA in his first month in office with no identified threats. To the contrary, Clinton’s inactions after numerous attacks during his administration trained the bin Ladens of the world to expect no repercussions after attacks on warships or bombings at the World Trade Center. What a shame Clinton, when offered bin Laden on a platter by the Saudis, declined to take him.
“turning a fiscal surplus and balanced budget into a doubling of the national debt”
Bush inherited a recession that had started before his election, and it was only beginning to turn around when 9/11 happened and over a trillion dollars of capital evaporated from the US overnight. Yes, money was spent, and just about everyone was a Keynesian for a time. It was getting better (look at that above chart link), as Bush’s deficit spending actually did stimulate the economy. Unlike Obama’s, which has been remarkably ineffective.
“the Patriot act and all it’s unconstitutional frills”
That passed the Senate 98 to 1. It passed the House 357 to 66. Yes, Ron Paul was one of the noes. A bipartisan frenzy that you just palm off as Bush’s fault. Incredible blindness on your part, Paul.
“TARP and the bailing out of Banksters and insurance frauds, collapse of the stock market”
Again, Dem sacred cows and intentionally blind congressional oversight, as Barney Frank was carrying GSE water in the House while living with a director, and Chris Dodd (D-Countrywide) got some real sweet deals. And who did Obama tap to put those central bankers in line… Geithner, one of those central bankers. Sweet.
“torture by US soldiers at Abu Ghraib”
Just goes to show that the one group of people you shouldn’t allow to be prison guards are the sadistic scum who really want to be prison guards. I’m pretty sure Bush & Cheney didn’t know about it beforehand (please, evidence to the contrary), and they did a reasonable job in the aftermath.
“the exploitation of American hero Pat Tillman, for a start”
And what exactly was Bush’s personal role in that? A sad chapter, but there have been Tillmans in every war any country has ever fought.
“That’s a legacy that will probably never be matched. Tell me how could it be worse?”
Because Gore was a lying empty suit who had never managed any enterprise larger than his Vice Presidential office staff, and the lying empty suit “I was for it before I was against it” John Kerry’s biggest claim to fame besides being wounded in the ass from flying rice that he’d tossed a grenade into was marrying into even bigger money than he was born into. Imagine Teresa Heinz as first lady.
Once the Bush Derangement Syndrome sufferers ease into the shadows, I’ve little doubt Bush II will take his place as a below average President who, despite challenges, managed to do what no one thought possible on 9/12/2001… keep the US safe from another terrorist attack.

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George Rebane

29 May 2013

Gregory 126pm – thanks.

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Scott Obermuller

29 May 2013

Ben E’s view of history is sheer nonsense -“…all the people who have become bankrupt or homeless due to the deregulation of the big banks that the republicans along with Clinton brought us”.
These poor people you worry over promised to pay a certain amount every month for decades for a house when they knew damn well they couldn’t afford it. They welshed on the deal. They broke their promise. You might have a bit more concern for the folks that didn’t act stupid and greedy. They ended up paying for all of this by having their saved currency debased.
And Ben – just how concerned are you really? Is your house open for one and all to trash? After all, they were abused by the nasty banks that actually thought a contract was something to abide by. Why don’t you take out an advert in the Union listing your address as a flop house for the homeless? Progressive is just another name for those that are so generous with other folks’ money.

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Russ Steele

29 May 2013

Gregory@1:26PM
Well done, thank you! As I recall Saddam was paying parents $25K for every son that carried a bomb on a Israel bus, or into a cafe and blow them selfs up.

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Paul Emery

29 May 2013

GREGORY I’m on a train right now coming back from San Francisco so I don’t have time to answer your endorsement of Bush with any detail. Let me leave you with this. If Bush was such a good president why has been exiled to his Texas ranch and not allowed to step foot in any political conventions for the last 5 years.

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Gregory

29 May 2013

Son or daughter, though Hamas directed that female martyrs be escorted to the bombing site by male relatives so as to keep their honor intact.

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Paul Emery

29 May 2013

George what do you think McCain would have done about the economy if he would have been elected Pres.?

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Ben Emery

29 May 2013

Russ,
What is the difference if someone is paid to get on a bus for the brainwashing ideals as the greater good or paying an active military soldier to occupy, wreak havoc, kick in doors and terrorize, and displace/ murder 20% of the population that had done nothing towards the occupying nation?
Before you go all nuts on me let me say this, I do not blame the military men and women for executing the orders given to them by the corrupt power/ war monger executive branch of our government, I leave 100% of that blame to those who make the decisions.

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Ben Emery

29 May 2013

Scott,
The FBI did an investigation and 80% of the loans made were predatory or were considered “fraud for profit”. Also as we are getting further away from the housing collapse we are seeing more and more illegal activity caused it. The only problem is both the republicans and democrats are owned by big banks are feel they are too big too jail so they slap them with a fine while the people are on the streets.
As for the financial crisis it was caused by the derivative market along with the predatory housing bubble, which was made possible by two pieces of legislation. Gramm Leach Bliley that abolished Glass Steagall and Commodities Futures Modernization Act 2000 that blew the doors open for derivative trading/ speculation.
George would like this article as well, from one our past discussions.
Racial predatory loans fueled U.S. housing crisis: study
http://www.reuters.com/article/2010/10/04/us-usa-foreclosures-race-idUSTRE6930K520101004

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Paul Emery

29 May 2013

You know Ben bashing Obama is fair game but how anyone in the intelligent universe can think the Republicans would be any better astounds me. I use the recent history of Bush II as an example but even harsh critics of bad government such as Gregory rush to his support. Damned if I can figure it out. There are hereditary Republicans such as Todd that cant help the way they are but I keep hoping there are free thinking Conservatives that can step back from partisan party politics and stand on principals not party allegiance but I don’t see much of that here. This exercise is getting pretty boring to be honest and I’m losing interest.

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George Rebane

29 May 2013

PaulE 1132pm – Your belief that opposition to Team Obama and his policies makes one a lock step Republican is one of your major illogics. The conservative-leaning commenters here come in varying allegiances to the Republican party. I can’t identify anyone who has the characteristics that you attribute. It’s just that our current administration is so misguided …, and, yes, much more misguided than was Bush2. And again, that doesn’t mean that Bush2 walked on water, it’s just a relative assessment (that you don’t agree with).

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Gregory

29 May 2013

” even harsh critics of bad government such as Gregory rush to his support. Damned if I can figure it out”
I don’t “support” Bush, Paul. I detest the blind hatred by the Left who believed any lie about the Bush administration if it served partisan purposes and fit their preconceptions, and Paul, you’ve got that in spades. That is, in short, Bush Derangement Syndrome.

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Michael Anderson

29 May 2013

Paul wrote: “This exercise is getting pretty boring to be honest and I’m losing interest.”
Yeah, I come and go on this, on this blog. George gets me fired up, though, with his incessant rhetoric…thanks George! (-:
I think the disconnect is that the US two-party system is a false system, a potemkin village, a failure.
Gregory makes good points about inheritance, and George agrees that Obama was certainly handed a $hit $andwich in 2008.
So then we have governance, and I think THAT is where we can find both commonalities and disagreements.
I am contending that Obama’s governance is a whole lot better than what Bush2 cobbled together. Maybe this will help the conversation along.

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Paul Emery

29 May 2013

George
CAn you honestly tell me that you have voted for anyone other than than a Republican for President in the last 40 years. I’m holding out for at least Ross Perot

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Paul Emery

30 May 2013

Gregory
You certainly presented a gallant argument for the War in Iraq, an “it’s not his fault” for the economic collapse, an “it happens all the time” for the Past Tillman coverup and a Cheney didn’t know about Abu Ghraib beforehand (but they sure tried to cover it up)
Sure sounds like a Bush booster to me.
Trying to put Gore in the picture is bullshit. He was never President so who cares. You make it look like Republicans were the only option because the Dems were worse. Stand up and believe in something Greg other than you hate Democrats more than Republicans.

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Gregory

30 May 2013

“I’m on a train right now coming back from San Francisco so I don’t have time to answer your endorsement of Bush with any detail.”
Paul, that wasn’t an “endorsement”. It was a complete rejection of your bullshit history of 2001-2008 that you produced to bolster your claim that it couldn’t get worse than Bush and, in your zeal, you didn’t actually produce one presidential action that directly caused any of the results you blamed him for. Your rant was preaching to your choir, and only to your choir.
I could produce a nice screed reaming what Bush actually did but I don’t see a need to do so here and now. Browse the reason.com website and figure it out yourself.

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Gregory

30 May 2013

“Trying to put Gore in the picture is bullshit. He was never President so who cares. You make it look like Republicans were the only option because the Dems were worse.”
Had Gore won the election in 2000 (no, he didn’t) I’ve little doubt it would have been worse, and since a Gore presidency is one of the alternative universes I was considering when I claimed things could have been worse in my original statement that got a bee up your bonnet, he was a natural to cite. Kerry, too.
Face it, Paul, hate has blinded you since 2000. Bush was a flawed president but not nearly as flawed as you have been hallucinating.

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