Rebane's Ruminations
March 2013
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George Rebane

California’s Prop8 rescinded gay marriage in the state.  The will of the people may now be overturned by the Supreme Court which is hearing the appeal to uphold Prop8 that in the interval was overturned as unconstitutional by lower courts.  In this debate we recall that under California law, gay couples can already register domestic partnerships that provide the same rights and responsibilities as marriage.

So, as a couple of justices observed, it really comes down only to the use of the label ‘marriage’ when describing the association between homosexuals.  Historically all cultures have reserved that label to identify the prime familial relationship between a man and a woman.  Now the issue seems to be for the homosexual community to co-opt that label to also and with ambiguity identify their special relationship.  It is no longer a matter of the rights and privileges that the relationship confers, they already have that.

As another side matter in this decision, the impact of same-sex marriages on children raised in such families is not known as is claimed by the usual activists promoting this new type of marriage.  More here.

My preference is to retain the historical word ‘marriage’ in all languages to refer to the established union between a man and a woman.  We make up new words for new ideas every day.  Why can we not concoct a brand new label for the brand new relationship that the modern age recognizes between people of the same gender?  The benefits to such unambiguous identification in all matters of social administration and intercourse would be enormous.  One simple word would distinguish between the traditional societal norm and the newly imposed norm, and inform all of the exact nature of the so referenced couple.

After all, there is no intention to hide anything here, is there?

[5apr13 update]  In
the comment stream below I introduced ‘garriage’ as the working label for gay
or same sex marriage in order to facilitate debate and discussion.  Messing with an institution as fundamental as
marriage in its expansion to embrace same sex unions has unintended
consequences.  Some of these are now
coming out in the media, even the lamestream, after chair of the Georgia
GOP Sue Everhart raised the benefits that straight people may gain when they game garriage.  (She was instantly denigrated by the usual
liberal intellects like Stephen Colbert.) 
With each passing day, more and more interesting possibilities open up for
non-homosexuals to become garried.  The
most recent one I heard today was fathers garrying their sons and grandsons to gain
relief from asset transfer taxes that today don’t apply in marriages.

We can all now anticipate the elaborate patchwork of exceptions, codicils, and special provisions that will have to be appended to any law that will insist on calling such gay unions 'marriage' instead of giving them a unique and informative label.  What a curiously deviant world progressive
thought provides us in so many areas of human intercourse.

Posted in , , , ,

86 responses to “Marriage by any other name (updated 5apr13)”

  1. Todd Juvinall Avatar

    Listening to all the talking heads yesterday (and now today on DOMA), I have no confidence the “right thing” will be accomplished. After John Roberts sold out the Constitution on Obamacare, my guess is the lawyers will totally screw this up and the people will be tossed aside again. Sorry to say this.
    One man ad one woman is the meaning of life. All other permutations are perverse.

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  2. Barry Pruett Avatar

    I would urge everyone to listen or read yesterday’s transcript from the oral arguments. The argument was fascinating and at times very funny. I do not see the court finding an equal protection violation here, as same-sex couples and heterosexual couples do not appear to be similarly situated…but with this court, you never know. The opinion will be very interesting. My guess is that the Court will punt.

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  3. Joe Koyote Avatar
    Joe Koyote

    “After all, there is no intention to hide anything here, is there?….. One man ad one woman is the meaning of life. All other permutations are perverse.
    Considering the hate that some people place upon gays, gays might want to hide their private affairs from bigots to avoid bodily harm, discrimination in the workplace or home buying, renting, verbal abuse, taunting, or other hate crimes. One’s sexuality is, after all, their own private business unless they care to broadcast it, as is the case with some.
    “After John Roberts sold out the Constitution on Obamacare, my guess is the lawyers will totally screw this up and the people will be tossed aside again. ” — Was Citizens United another example of the people getting tossed aside or was that OK?

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  4. Paul Emery Avatar

    No Todd. War is perverse. Loving relationships are a blessing.
    That’s kind of an odd statement from someone who advertises his dangler so freely.
    ” Anyway, I am a lovable, vibrant TSA adored fellow. ”
    http://www.sierradragonsbreathe.blogspot.com/2013/03/liberals-need-our-prayers-and-sympathy.html#comment-form

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  5. Todd Juvinall Avatar

    Funny how the libs call anyone a bigot when they disagree. My guess is the liberals would not marry outside their race or ethnicity because mom and dad would cut off their trust money. LOL!
    Citizen’s United is a fine piece of law because it found , GASP!, free speech in the First Amendment!

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  6. Joe Koyote Avatar
    Joe Koyote

    “Funny how the libs call anyone a bigot when they disagree. ” if the shoe fits wear it. funny how when conservatives say bigoted things its all the evil libs fault. If you get in a car wreck will that be the libs fault also?
    So money is free speech and corporations are living breathing people, right Todd?

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  7. Paul Emery Avatar

    So George, you propose some kind of check box on a marriage certificate and that would take care of the problem. I assume you have no problem with same sexers being entitled to all Federal and State benefits and that they should are entitled to the same rights as those who have traditional marriages.

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  8. TheMikeyMcD Avatar

    #1- our culture has made a mockery of marriage
    #2- it is our own fault for letting the government into our bedrooms
    #3- we’ve much more pressing problems http://www.usdebtclock.org/

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  9. Paul Emery Avatar

    Mikey
    Why should the government be involved in any way with the definition of marriage?

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  10. Barry Pruett Avatar

    Paul: In California, the government was not involved in anyway in defining marriage. Right or wrong, the people constitutionally defined it with Prop 8. I think that the Supreme Court case is more about whether or not the proponents have standing to appeal than the equal protection clause. If the government can thwart the California initiative process by not appealing, does not that government action thwart the will of the people?

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  11. Paul Emery Avatar

    Barry
    The will of the people is still subject to the Constitution and Federal law despite being demonstrated through the imitative process. For example a state imitative could be passed barring interracial marriage but it would be rejected by the Supreme Court. Fundamentalist Libertarians may support states rights in that matter however.
    Jurisdiction is an intriguing mix to the question that has nothing to do with the constitutionality of Prop 8 which was successfully challenged through the California Courts. I’m shaky on understanding this but are you contending that because the State of Calif did not defend Prop 8 they are contrary to the will of the people? I need help on this. That’s what lawyers are for.

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  12. Ben Emery Avatar
    Ben Emery

    Let me chime in my usual way of seeing it a different way. First off the marriage argument is a red herring. I have been part of equality issues and movements for over two decades. Only until the last ten years or so has the fight been over the term marriage. It started in the right wing echo chamber of talk radio and FOX. Traditionally it has been about equal access to privileges/ benefits for same sex couples. An official affirmation that their civil union.
    Our government and private sector have made incentives for people to marry, which I will call privileges/ benefits (p/b). To receive these p/b our government must receive and recognize a couples application, fees, and have a ceremony of some sort of a public (witnesses) declaration to each other with an authorized person to conduct over the ceremony. These p/b cross state borders and receive p/b of state/ federal, which brings in federal law and the US Constitution.
    Personally I think our government isn’t in existence to have authority over marriage. I would argue our government should have a say in civil unions that make couples eligible for the p/b married couples get in public and private contracts. Then marriages will either be performed and recognized by a church or entity of the couples desire. If their church or entity doesn’t recognize same sex marriages maybe it is time to force the church to change or find a new denomination.

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  13. George Rebane Avatar

    PaulE 1012am – Correct as was stated in the post.

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  14. Ben Emery Avatar
    Ben Emery

    Barry,
    What you are describing is judicial review, which seems to become the Supreme Courts only function over the last century or so. The funny thing about it “Judicial Review” isn’t outlined in the US Constitution as a power of the SCOTUS.
    SCOTUS was supposed to be the final appeals court not the constitutionality court. It was supposed to be the people who vote for legislators who will determine the laws not a few unelected unaccountable life time appointees.
    Article III
    http://www.law.cornell.edu/constitution/articleiii

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  15. Paul Emery Avatar

    But George, right now same sexers do not have the same Federal standing in many situations. How would you correct that?

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  16. George Rebane Avatar

    PaulE 520pm – Pass a law, that’s why we have a Congress. The federal law will stipulate that any same sex couple that qualifies to be garried (working name for gay married) according to the laws of their state, and becomes garried will receive the same legal benefits, and be subject to the same obligations as a married couple. The only difference is that where a domestic partnership status is required to be stated, the labels ‘married’,’garried’, ‘single’, etc will be used.

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  17. Bill Tozer Avatar
    Bill Tozer

    I am confused by all this. Anyone, everyone of age is free to marry a person of the opposite sex for centuries. Now, what am I missing? Oh course there are some caveats. You can’t marry someone who is already married and you can’t marry one of your parents or one of your siblings. This applies equally across the board. Total non issue.

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  18. Todd Juvinall Avatar

    PaulE, two men and two women being married is perverse. It is unnatural in the reaL world. You are one sick puppy. So i Joe,.
    You two are bigots and need to cool it.
    I am a amazed that you too libss have so little sense of humor.

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  19. Paul Emery Avatar

    Sure Todd
    Calling people who are in love with other perverts is real funny.

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  20. Ben Emery Avatar
    Ben Emery

    Bill,
    It is about the privileges/ benefits that come with being married. That is why it is different. I say take away all those privileges/ benefits and the issue goes away and becomes an issue for the faith based communities to address. I 100% support same sex marriages on the bases of not believing in second class citizens or human beings. Being homosexual is a natural behavior that a small portion of the general population is born into. Nothing more nothing less, there should be no difference to the laws or privileges/ benefits that are given to the majority.

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  21. Ben Emery Avatar
    Ben Emery

    Justice Sotomayor nailed.
    “Outside of the marriage context, can you think of any other rational basis, reason, for a state using sexual orientation as a factor in denying homosexuals benefits or imposing burdens on them? Is there any other rational decision-making that the government could make? Denying them a job, not granting them benefits of some sort, any other decision?”

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  22. Ben Emery Avatar
    Ben Emery

    Should say “Justice Sotomayor nailed it.”

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  23. Barry Pruett Avatar

    Paul: In order for someone to bring a lawsuit they must be injured in fact and not a general grievance that all citizens have. Usually it is up to the State to appeal a ruling in connection with its laws or constitution. In this instance, the constitutional amendment was enacted by the people and not the legislature. When the amendment was found to be unconstitutional, Jerry Brown refused to defend the amendment, so the proponents of the amendment initiative defended. The question is whether the proponents “injury” is different from those of the general public and whether they were injured as proponents of a ballot initiative. The question has never been presented to the Court and is a question of first impression. I personally think that the question is very interesting.
    Ben: Judicial Review has been around since Marbry v. Madison (over two hundred years). Good luck with that argument!

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  24. Barry Pruett Avatar

    I think George is articulating well the questions presented by the Court. Are same-sex couples being excluded from marriage or is it that same-sex couples are simply not included in the institution of marriage?

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  25. Paul Emery Avatar

    Thanks Barry
    Anyone ever tell you you’d make a good lawyer?

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  26. Barry Pruett Avatar

    Ben: I am not a Supreme Court justice but distinguishing Sotomayor’s comments is easy. There is no rational basis for discriminating against homosexuals in connection with employment or benefits, because in that particular context, homosexuals and heterosexuals are completely similarly situated (much the same as interracial marriage). In the context of marriage, homosexuals and heterosexuals are not similarly situated, because of the procreational aspect of the historical institution of marriage which was created in part to insure that children have a higher likelihood of growing up with the parents who created them. She and you are comparing apples and oranges. I do see your point, and I think that homosexual couples should have laws that protect their relationships, but you are just arguing about a label. George calls one married and the other garried. The institutions are significantly different and the people inside each institution are not similarly situated.

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  27. Barry Pruett Avatar

    Paul: Once or twice;) I would urge you (and everyone) to listen to the oral argument. I thought that it was fascinating. It was funny too. Kagan was trying to make a point that couples over 55 do not procreate and asked whether it would be constitutional to refuse marriage licenses to them. Scalia then commented that Strom Thurmond (who father children well into his 70’s) was not on the Senate judiciary committee when Kagan was confirmed. Funny. The debate was really educational, as I had never heard the arguments presented in that way.

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  28. Ben Emery Avatar
    Ben Emery

    A traditional bible based marriage explained
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OFkeKKszXTw&feature=player_embedded

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  29. Paul Emery Avatar

    George 7:26 Pm
    So George if you are for equality and only wa nt a different label th en for sure you would support the repeal of DOMA.

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  30. Michael Anderson Avatar
    Michael Anderson

    George, you continue to spiral into the earth on this issue. Gays will be married, they will raise children, and that will be the end of it. Yeah, I don’t need to wait for any WSJ-sanctioned “study” to tell me what I already know: poor kids do really shitty in school despite their inherent capabilities, and rich kids do really well in school despite their inherent capabilities. The only negative effect of gay parentage is the result of cultural ass-wipes who continue to insist it must be differentiated, which attaches a legacy stigma, and harms the children.
    Perhaps the sexual revolution passed you by? Bummer for you.
    Gay marriage is a done deal, George. Time to get over it, and you cannot label it away. Rush Limbaugh says that sanctioning gay marriage will lead to people marrying their yard animals, but of course you understand that this kind of a statement is completely ludicrous. Gay marriage is NOT polyamory or polygamy. And anyone who suggests that this is the slippery slope to that wherewithal has just disqualified him/herself from the discussion.
    As I have stated before to you, George, you are tilting at windmills on this one. It is completely over. Done. Next subject. There will still be a gay marriage adoption period that will take some time. But by the time gay marriage and kids being raised by these unions becomes more commonplace, you will be long gone, so don’t sweat it. Don’t worry, be happy.
    ‘Garried’? Seriously? Sheesh…
    M.

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  31. Barry Pruett Avatar

    http://nogaymarriage.wordpress.com/2011/07/05/gay-marriage-is-a-threat-to-gay-sexual-freedom/
    From the above link:
    “I say all this because of the big deal made over the difference between civil unions and ‘marriage.’ Gay activists are rejecting civil unions that are literally identical to state-enforced marriage contracts except in name, on principle. This is because they want to mimic the religious heterosexuals that hate them. It’s also to send the message that gays can be just as boring and domestic as religious weirdos; a desperate desire to be seen as a ‘traditional family.’ Sorry, honey, as long as your junk don’t interlock, you’re not. This has transcended mere legal equality and the convenience of standard-form contracts and crossed into ceremonial jealously.”
    Not all homosexuals support same-sex marriage. In fact, many (some of whom are frineds of mine) are highly against it as it cuts into same-sex sexual freedom.

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  32. Todd Juvinall Avatar

    It is the bizarre people like Michael who missed the “sexual revolution” and are now a confused bunch (his goats are nervous, LOL!). People with traditional values of a man and woman marrying are the rocks of civilization. Not the bizarre pairing of the MA’s desires.
    If the “law” forces people to “legally” accept bizarre pairings, the traditional culture will not and that is the rub. Saying something is the same on paper does not make it so. Look at “busing” as a real world example of why some dictates do not work. Busing failed after laws were passed and billions of dollars were spent to force people outside their “comfort zones” Look at the results. Birds of a feather flock together and no judge can change that.
    Men marrying men is unnatural and those of us that state that are not bigots for saying so. There are some traditions about humans that transcend a “law” and perversions of sex will be rejected in the market place.

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  33. Barry Pruett Avatar

    Another issue here that nobody has discussed is this. The redefining of marriage denies, as a matter of public policy, the idea that children born from a marriage need the mother and father that created the child by placing the needs and desires of adults over the needs of the children they create. In his State of the Union address, Pres Obama mentioned “how critical fathers are” and how he wished that he had been able to spend more time with his own. Just a thought…

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  34. George Rebane Avatar

    BarryP 722am – excellent point Barry. The children truly are the pawns in this game of ‘lovers’ rights’. All that pro-garriage advocates can cite in the courts and media is that “there is no evidence” for this or that deleterious effect on children raised by same sex parents. That there is yet no evidence is because there have been no studies done that can be called scientific on the issue (extremely low sample sizes from which to draw any statistically significant conclusions). And we recall that no evidence of an effect does not infer the absence of that effect.

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  35. Steve Frisch Avatar
    Steve Frisch

    Todd, I should count on you to missing the point almost every time, with your artificially inflated lingam and tiny cranium leading the way.
    No one cares how you define ‘traditional’, the dominant culture has passed your definition, not just here in the good old US of A but around the world. Our culture is defining traditional in a new way, gay couples are parenting and doing a damn good job of it, and even young ‘conservatives’ are denying the power of the state to define social institutions. You have already lost the battle, whether the SCOTUS delivers a broad or a narrow decision.
    And you may be correct about birds of a feather flocking together, in which case I expect to see a new state arise, coupling Christian fundamentalists like you and George, with Islamic extremists, in the near future.
    By the way, how many times have you been married now? How many of those kids you fathered while Paul Emery was serving his country grew up in a broken home (see Sierra Dragons Breathe [sic]?)
    By the way, I find it hilarious that a ‘systems scientist’ like George would fall into the serial logical fallacy of contending that lack of evidence to the effect does not mean absence of cause. It is the most inherently unscientific and illogical argument one could make. I have no evidence that the universe was not created by the Flying Spaghetti Monster thus it is logical for me to believe that the Flying Spaghetti Monster was the creator!
    (Barry, I listened to the arguments last night and I agree they were fantastic)

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  36. Steve Frisch Avatar
    Steve Frisch

    I come back here almost every day to remind myself that while fearful people are looking down the slippery slope to an abyss hopeful people are busy bending the arc of history toward justice.

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  37. George Rebane Avatar

    SteveF 816am – Your failed attempt to understand and correctly interpret “no evidence of an effect does not infer the absence of that effect” does however provide more than sufficient evidence to evaluate your ability to reason.
    For the thinking reader, the quote from my 732am is simply a restatement of the well known ‘absence of evidence is not evidence of absence’. People new to reasoning often make that mistake, hence it is always included in beginning logic courses.

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  38. TheMikeyMcD Avatar
    TheMikeyMcD

    Ben, I pray that one day your hate will turn to love. Happy Easter

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  39. Steve Frisch Avatar
    Steve Frisch

    George, if you are too dense to get the twist I put on this, and do not understand that the point you are making that lack of evidence does not mean something is not the cause is not a rational basis for believing something, I can’t help you.
    The sky is blue; it could be because gremlins are painting it every morning before I get up, but I have no evidence that they are not, so they may be the cause. I can test that thesis by waking up before dawn and looking at the sky, but since I can’t see the sky, they may be up there painting anyway.
    It is this logic that leads to faith.

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  40. Paul Emery Avatar

    George
    Sorry for the typos earlier. Here is my question.
    So George if you are for equality for same sex coulpes and only want a different label to describe same sex marriages then do you support the repeal of DOMA, with those stipulations.

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  41. Todd Juvinall Avatar

    I have come to understand that people like the Frisch are so intimidated those that actually accomplish things they come to these places and attack. What a hoot. I am so far ahead of the curve people like the Frisch live in it is too easy. But, when you are a rent seeking government funded sycophant, what does one expect?
    The facts are traditional life is practiced by most humans and homosexual marriage is not one of them. Frisch must have some gender issues with himself because he doth attack others too hard.
    I come to this site sometimes for a Frisch farce laugh-a-thon. Worse logic cannot be found. The Frisch is the master.

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  42. George Rebane Avatar

    PaulE 1046am – I have not argued “for equality for same sex couples”. What I do argue is that IF DOMA is repealed, and IF same sex couples are permitted to form unions that have all the rights and privileges granted to married heterosexual couples (excluding, of course, those not physiologically possible), THEN that union should be labeled something other than marriage (I here use a placeholder label ‘garriage’ for gay marriage).
    Do I want DOMA repealed? Not really, since I hold sacrosanct the declared and normative union between a man and a woman called marriage. There are limits to my compassion for homosexuals, but these limits do encompass my not wanting them to be unduly punished for feelings that to them are natural and to me are not. And as I’ve said before, my biggest concern is how children are placed into and managed in a garriage. Were it not for issues arising therefrom, I would support the repeal of the remaining provisions of DOMA.
    All said and done, garriage is a hard problem for everyone from SCOTUS on down. Most certainly it is a vexing one for me, and I will appreciate all comments of goodwill that can shed light on its resolution.

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  43. Paul Emery Avatar

    Thanks for the thoughtful comments George.
    I have to defer to Ron Paul on this when he says “voluntary relationships shouldn’t be interfered by the state” The state should however not allow discrimination or diminished resources or privileges towards gay couples. Would that take a Federal ruling? Probably I differ with Ron Paul on this where he prefers this to be left up to the States. If it were left up to the states there could likely still be a ban on interracial marriages. That was settled buy the Supreme Court in 1967 with Loving v. Virginia, that overturned the States anti-miscegenation statute, the Racial Integrity Act of 1924

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  44. George Rebane Avatar

    PaulE 408pm – the problem I see with Paul’s statement is when such “voluntary relationships” impose on third parties not party to the relationship, but nevertheless these third parties are encumbered by government to materially honor the relationship entered into without the third parties’ or their representatives’ consent or involvement. Can you speak to that conundrum?

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  45. Bill Tozer Avatar
    Bill Tozer

    Hey, this is just a one day story. Media has already moved on to important stuff….yawn, that all there is to a fire?

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  46. Paul Emery Avatar

    George
    You wrote in this post ” It is no longer a matter of the rights and privileges that the relationship confers, they already have that.”
    Yet you are opposed to the repeal of DOMA that indeed does restrict those rights and privileges on a national level. Can you explain that apparent inconsistency?
    The Defense of Marriage Act (DOMA) enacted September 21, 1996, Is a United States federal law that restricts federal marriage benefits and required inter-state marriage recognition to only opposite-sex marriages in the United States.

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  47. Ben Emery Avatar
    Ben Emery

    Paul,
    Many who oppose same sex marriage now would have been on the front lines opposing interracial marriage 50 years ago.
    Here is a tv movie about the circumstances that caused the Loving vs. Virginia case you mentioned earlier.
    Mr and Mrs Loving (1996)
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=fvwp&NR=1&v=VxCysjSlR9I
    Mickey,
    What hatred are you referring? The only things I hate are oppression and exploitation.
    Happy Ishtar.

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  48. Paul Emery Avatar

    Ben
    There are some who would prefer that those questions defer to States rights jurisdiction.

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  49. Ben Emery Avatar
    Ben Emery

    Yes, State Rights for some is a legitimate argument but many it is code for segregation, bigotry, anti union/ worker rights, and legal right to pollute in the name of profit.

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  50. George Rebane Avatar

    PaulE 844pm – You may have missed my 626pm.
    BenE 947pm – But since there are no uniformly accepted definitions for all those listed grievances, how should we proceed if not by the Founders prescription that the states operate as the laboratories of self governance?

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