Rebane's Ruminations
March 2013
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George Rebane

California’s Prop8 rescinded gay marriage in the state.  The will of the people may now be overturned by the Supreme Court which is hearing the appeal to uphold Prop8 that in the interval was overturned as unconstitutional by lower courts.  In this debate we recall that under California law, gay couples can already register domestic partnerships that provide the same rights and responsibilities as marriage.

So, as a couple of justices observed, it really comes down only to the use of the label ‘marriage’ when describing the association between homosexuals.  Historically all cultures have reserved that label to identify the prime familial relationship between a man and a woman.  Now the issue seems to be for the homosexual community to co-opt that label to also and with ambiguity identify their special relationship.  It is no longer a matter of the rights and privileges that the relationship confers, they already have that.

As another side matter in this decision, the impact of same-sex marriages on children raised in such families is not known as is claimed by the usual activists promoting this new type of marriage.  More here.

My preference is to retain the historical word ‘marriage’ in all languages to refer to the established union between a man and a woman.  We make up new words for new ideas every day.  Why can we not concoct a brand new label for the brand new relationship that the modern age recognizes between people of the same gender?  The benefits to such unambiguous identification in all matters of social administration and intercourse would be enormous.  One simple word would distinguish between the traditional societal norm and the newly imposed norm, and inform all of the exact nature of the so referenced couple.

After all, there is no intention to hide anything here, is there?

[5apr13 update]  In
the comment stream below I introduced ‘garriage’ as the working label for gay
or same sex marriage in order to facilitate debate and discussion.  Messing with an institution as fundamental as
marriage in its expansion to embrace same sex unions has unintended
consequences.  Some of these are now
coming out in the media, even the lamestream, after chair of the Georgia
GOP Sue Everhart raised the benefits that straight people may gain when they game garriage.  (She was instantly denigrated by the usual
liberal intellects like Stephen Colbert.) 
With each passing day, more and more interesting possibilities open up for
non-homosexuals to become garried.  The
most recent one I heard today was fathers garrying their sons and grandsons to gain
relief from asset transfer taxes that today don’t apply in marriages.

We can all now anticipate the elaborate patchwork of exceptions, codicils, and special provisions that will have to be appended to any law that will insist on calling such gay unions 'marriage' instead of giving them a unique and informative label.  What a curiously deviant world progressive
thought provides us in so many areas of human intercourse.

Posted in , , , ,

86 responses to “Marriage by any other name (updated 5apr13)”

  1. Paul Emery Avatar

    George
    In your view did the Federal Government overstep with the Civil Rights Act and the Supreme Court over step in in 1967 with Loving v. Virginia? Should those matters have been left to the states as you recommend with same sex marriage?
    Also, is it not consistent to have firm data on the success of parenting by traditional couples before launching into researching those questions as applied to same sex couples if that is to be used as a standard for success. Are you not giving the federal government a massive chance to investigate our private lives by subscribing to such an inquiry? Who would conduct this research????
    By the way, these are the current statistics on divorce. They seem to be almost 50%.
    http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/fastats/divorce.htm
    Number of marriages: 2,096,000
    Marriage rate: 6.8 per 1,000 total population
    Divorce rate: 3.6 per 1,000 population (44 reporting States and D.C.)

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  2. Ben Emery Avatar
    Ben Emery

    George,
    What you describing sounds more like the Articles of Confederation. That didn’t work then and it wouldn’t work now.
    I had a long reply but decided against it because it would lead into further discussions about the Constitution which would be a waste of time. You mistakenly believe it is a conservative/ libertarian document when in actuality it is a series of compromises between a whole range of political ideas and philosophies. Your true opinions come out in the threads when you are pushed to clarify the positions on any given issue.

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  3. George Rebane Avatar

    PaulE 436pm – I’ll gladly take a cut at those when you finally acknowledge that I also have asked you a question or two – you have yet to acknowledge my 626pm. This again sounds like the prosecuting attorney interrogating the defendant – not much like a give and take two-way dialogue.

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  4. George Rebane Avatar

    BenE 824pm – have no clue about what you are talking since this is a multi-threaded comment stream, and you don’t reference a specific comment of mine.

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  5. Paul Emery Avatar

    re:6:26
    Can you be more specific about “third parties” ? I’ll give it a try for what it’s worth. By referring to those who must ” materially honor the relationship entered into without the third parties’ or their representatives’ consent or involvement” I assume you are referring to those citizens who do not agree with granting equal rights and privileges same sex couples and why should they be forced to go along with whatever responsibilities and programs that become standard procedure.
    As far as representation doesn’t representation from our elected officials cover that? I am forced all the time to comply with laws that I personally did not consent to (war in Iraq-still paying for it – pot laws, needless regulations etc. I don’t see anything special about same sex marriages having the same rights as conventional couples that is different than any legislation you or I disagree with and are forced to comply with. If the Supremes vote to toss DOMA is that not a direct reflection of the will of the people who elected the Presidents who appointed the justices?
    As far as effects on children involved refer to 29 March 2013 at 04:36 PM. Conventional marriage statistically is a massive failure. 50% divorce rate doesn’t take into account miserable failed relationships that don’t get divorced and separations. I’m puzzled as to why you seem to encourage government involvement to study this issue.

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  6. Gregory Avatar

    Paul, same sex marriage isn’t about rights or privileges, it’s about entitlements. In California, a civil union gives every right to a couple that any married couple has, just not an entitlement to Federal benefits or employment benefits offered to married spouses and not those of civil unions. In short, all same sex marriage has in California is a coercive value to those who do not want to compensate gay and lesbian spouses the same as heterosexual spouses.
    A gay couple has every right to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness as anyone else, under current law.
    As far as marriage being a massive failure, that might have something to do with the quaint tradition that used to be embodied in law that a child born in wedlock had an entitlement to the fathers financial support, and outside of wedlock didn’t, has a lot to do with it. Now all that’s needed is either the admission by the babydaddy that he thought he was the sperm donor, or a DNA test forced by the government, for a judge to take everything a man has.
    Particularly unfair have been the multiple cases of a woman hiding the paternity from the father for years, only to fess up to the government as a condition to continue to get welfare payments, with the government then going after the man who was denied the rights to be a parent for years of child support payments.
    The DOMA should have gone after men’s paternity rights that have been shredded over the years, and limited financial responsibility for children fathered outside of marriage, if they really wanted to bolster traditional marriage.

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  7. Gregory Avatar

    Ben Emery, Mrs. Loving is on the record saying the movie you recommend, “Mr. and Mrs. Loving”, got only one fact right, that she did indeed have three children.
    By the way, your favorite Oliver Stone movies have about the same record.

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  8. Ben Emery Avatar
    Ben Emery

    Greg,
    As usual you attack the person. What an ass. What does Oliver Stone have to do with any of this? Sorry I didn’t do the extensive background research you did by going to wikipedia. I just saw the movie online and gave a link to it. Didn’t give it any reviews and or any indication that I have even watched it. It was based on the case Paul cited earlier, so I put out there.
    Here is a quote from Mildred Loving in 2007 about same sex marriage.
    “Not a day goes by that I don’t think of Richard and our love, our right to marry, and how much it meant to me to have that freedom to marry the person precious to me, even if others thought he was the “wrong kind of person” for me to marry ‘I believe all Americans, no matter their race, no matter their sex, no matter their sexual orientation, should have that same freedom to marry.”

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  9. Gregory Avatar

    As usual, Ben Emery is projecting.
    Attacking Oliver Stone docudramas as being largely fiction isn’t an attack against Oliver Stone, the person. Look up “ad hominem”, Ben. Looks like I hit a soft spot… did you think they were accurate?
    Mrs. Loving doesn’t quite have the weight of the Supremes, who didn’t use any of Mrs. Loving’s reasoning to strike the criminal conviction of her and her husband.
    BTW Disney’s “Pocahontas” was even worse than Stone’s “JFK”.

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  10. Ben Emery Avatar
    Ben Emery

    Greg,
    What ever dude, go enjoy the spring weather and get some fresh air.

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  11. TheMikeyMcD Avatar
    TheMikeyMcD

    Mr. Politician, your anti-christian video was the most wreckless, irresponsible and hateful thing I have witnessed anyone post here, ever. You are a bigot, hypocrite and intellectual lightweight. Your emotion based ideolotry requires enslavement (antithesis of individual liberty). Take any of your ‘solutions’ to their endpoints and you will find the heavy hand of government (run by champagne socialists with guns in hand) stealing liberty from the common man. I’ve yet to find a piece of your ideology that is not rooted in envy, pride, hate (simply see the video you posted for all the proof needed).
    Your hatred of Christians, employers, successful Americans and your idolotry of godernment shows in everything you write.

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  12. George Rebane Avatar

    PaulE 1020am – I suppose that would be a class of third parties. Parties who fashioned their business or charity or … to respond to and service married people without giving it a second thought, would now suddenly by government diktat have to enlarge and reformulate their business and professional activities to also service garried people. No one yet knows what unintended consequences are in store for us from messing with an institution that has been fundamental to all cultures for millenia.
    And that is the real issue here. Do we really want government to have the power to redefine within an eyeblink an ingrained institution that is so fundamental to our society. I’m not sure that your democracy arguments give anyone ease in such a situation. Our Founders most certainly did not think that democracy would be a functional form of governance at today’s ratio of representative to citizens/voters. I have talked to this problem numerous times – e.g.
    http://rebaneruminations.typepad.com/rebanes_ruminations/2011/06/democracy-bound-on-the-ship-of-fools-.html

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  13. Gregory Avatar

    Ben Emery, I accept your forfeit, graceless though it be.

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  14. Bill Tozer Avatar
    Bill Tozer

    Intolerance will not be tolerated.

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  15. Steve Frisch Avatar
    Steve Frisch

    George Rebane | 30 March 2013 at 08:20 PM: “No one yet knows what unintended consequences are in store for us from messing with an institution that has been fundamental to all cultures for millenia.”
    Funny George, that is exactly he same argument many used to rationalize slavery.

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  16. George Rebane Avatar

    SteveF 1255pm – is this your attempt to connect my collateral damages comment to your continuing indictment that I am a racist? You can bet the ranch that revoking DOMA is going to cause ripples across America that will surprise you even more than the fact that AB32 has done exactly the opposite of what you predicted. But then who knows, maybe you aren’t surprised by the devastating aftermath of AB32 on California’s economy.
    And no one needs to “rationalize slavery” or be its proponent in order to understand that “messing” with it caused unintended consequences, i.e. the war between the states, the first ‘modern war’ in history.
    Your logic in making these connections continues to astound the logician and semanticist, but not any student of progressive thought.

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  17. Paul Emery Avatar

    George
    Can you explain the apparent contradiction in views concerning legalizing gay marriage. On one hand you write “It is no longer a matter of the rights and privileges that the relationship confers, they already have that.”, and later you state “I have not argued for equality for same sex couples” . Can you help me understand this ?

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  18. George Rebane Avatar

    PaulE 628pm – where is the contradiction? One is a statement of the acknowledged state of current affairs re the rights and privileges conferred on gay couples, and the other is testimony of my own preferences on aspects of equality for same sex couples. They are apples and oranges. How on earth did you come to couple them?

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  19. Paul Emery Avatar

    But George you state that gay couples have the same rights and privileges as straight couples which is absolutely not true under DOMA. Any reasonable person reading your entry would conclude that your primary concern is in the use of the word marriage which you prefer to be reserved for male female couples and the use of a different word for the other (gamarge or whatever). Of course other impacts are not known (effects on children). How could they be and what discovery process could possibly reveal them? What is known is the miserable success rate of conventional marriage which it would have to be compared to
    It’s interesting that you want government responsibilities to include legislating semantics. That’s a far cry from any Libertarian tenants for sure.

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  20. George Rebane Avatar

    PaulE 918pm – government very much legislates and already punishes the use of wrong semantics. Semantics are important, and I don’t think it’s matter of libertarian or liberal speak. The Constitution is a semantics rich document. Everyone wants to own certain words.
    On the matter marriage/garriage I will have to stand with what I have posted.

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  21. Gregory Avatar

    “But George you state that gay couples have the same rights and privileges as straight couples which is absolutely not true under DOMA.”
    Paul, could you name a right or privilege (as opposed to an entitlement) given a married couple in California not given to a couple in a civil union?

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  22. Paul Emery Avatar

    Why not entitlements Gregory?
    Pursuit of Happiness for those who find it spiritually significant for one. Equal entitlements are are a pretty basic ingredient if you’re claiming equality. Couple A get them couple B (same sex) don’t under DOMA. DOMA restricts federal marriage benefits and requires inter-state marriage recognition to only opposite-sex marriages in the United States. So if a married same sex couple in California receives rights and privileges and entitlements (I include that) but desire to move to a state for whatever reason that doesn’t provide the same situation they are defiantly not equal. To that extent it affects their ability to pursue economic and personal opportunities and indeed their Pursuit of Happiness.
    From the Declaration of Independence
    We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty, and the pursuit of Happiness

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  23. Gregory Avatar

    Why?
    Paul, a right is something the government can’t take from you. Freedom of speech, press, improper search and seizure. An entitlement is something the government first has to take from someone else.
    Hey, there’s better unemployment bennies in California than there is in Texas. Why can’t the jobless move to Texas and get the same goodies as they did before they left, for example, Stockton?

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  24. Gregory Avatar

    Putting aside for a moment that the Declaration of Independence has no force of law in the USA, it’s the “pursuit of happiness” not a guarantee of income support if it will make you happy.

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  25. Paul Emery Avatar

    I contend same sex marriage is a form of Freedom of Speech manifest as self expression. Why should it be different from one state to the next? You may not like entitlements but that’s not the question. I don’t know your situation but if you receive federal entitlements you would expect them to be the same from state to state.
    Your attempted irony (Texas) is not successful here in expressing anything but sarcasm. A person in a gay couple who has the opportunity for career advancement in another state that does not recognize his or her marriage must suffer the consequences to accept the new job. This creates an advantage for a straight couple and is therefore discriminatory much like a mixed couple in the 60’s would have experienced say moving from California to Alabama for a job opportunity. This is the way things are right now under DOMA.

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  26. Gregory Avatar

    I’ve homosexual friends who consider themselves married and I’m happy to treat them as such, as in “How’s the wife?” Face it, Paul, you’re not talking about anything but the money.
    It’s just about the entitlements, which is why you wouldn’t answer the question about what Right is being denied.

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  27. Paul Emery Avatar

    I told you the “right” of freedom of speech and expression in my view is being denied, also the pursuit of happiness which is what freedom is all about. Couples want to get married because it makes them happy and fulfilled and accepted. For others, just like straight couples, it doesn’t matter. I have friends that got married during the short time before Prop 8 and to them it was the joy of their life to be accepted as a married couple.

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  28. Gregory Avatar

    “I told you the “right” of freedom of speech and expression in my view is being denied”
    Even breeders can call themselves married without actually being married. Freedom of speech and expression has nothing to do with it.

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  29. Paul Emery Avatar

    Do you want to talk to my friends about this? They can express their joy of being married much more passionately than I can.

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  30. Gregory Avatar

    There’s no need to have a government sanctioned “marriage” to have the joy of being married. Do you think these folks had a piece of paper?
    http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/bigphotos/31641127.html

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  31. Paul Emery Avatar

    Are you in a “government sanctioned marriage” and if so why did you decide to do so? Why shouldn’t gay couples have the same opportunity and experience?

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  32. Gregory Avatar

    Paul, you dodged the question, again.
    That was a poignant burial, wasn’t it? That is the essence of where traditional marriage came from. What is the earliest known burial of a same sex couple and their progeny in similar embrace?
    How a same sex marriage that doesn’t include Federal benefits or forcing private parties to treat them the same as traditional marriages?

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  33. Gregory Avatar

    ” I have friends that got married during the short time before Prop 8 and to them it was the joy of their life to be accepted as a married couple.”
    Afterwards, the same people who accepted it before accepted it, and the same people who didn’t still didn’t. And they didn’t get any monetary benefits, either.
    Would renaming civil union as marriage and allowing society to choose to subsidize it at different rates than marriage that is historically bound with reproduction make your friends happy? Marriage in name, just not in money?

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  34. Paul Emery Avatar

    Yes Gregory it is indeed poignant but pretty irrelevant to the question at hand. Who knows what rituals they subscribed to What we consider romantic love was largely manifest years later. Gosh,we do like to procreate don’t we!
    Again, why shouldn’t gay couples have the same experience of marriage if they chose to do so as straight couples. If entitlements are provided to straight couples what are the reasons gay couples should have the same? Do they not pay the same taxes and participate in the same health and retirement programs as straight couples? If they are not entitled to the same it can be argued that if they are forced to pay into what they are not entitled to why should they pay the same?
    re 8:39
    Why should society subsidize it with different rates? Can you give me some examples? Don’t gay couples pay the same taxes that subsidize schools for example? Since 50% of marriages end in divorce and taxpayers must pick up[ the tab for non sustainable parents why should gays have to pay that bill. If a gay couple both work and pay taxes why should they not have the same return for their contribution?

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  35. Gregory Avatar

    The teachers and staff thank the gays for contributing to civilization, especially given the low demands for education quality and high support for teacher’s unions.
    Many of us breeders would have been happier with a little more quality.
    Have a little more reverence, Paul. That burial after their murder is the oldest known family burial. Please, a gay equivalent.

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  36. Gregory Avatar

    “If entitlements are provided to straight couples what are the reasons gay couples should[n’t] have the same?”
    There are more children associated with breeder families, aren’t there?

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